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And in the torygraph too, must have felt like a stab in the back which is an amazing level of delicious irony
Delicious is the word.
But Twitter still a wash with ‘people’ claiming that he’s a Tory for getting a Telegraph front page (or undemocratic for challenging the PM, depending on which camp they are attacking him from).
Dicks will be dicks i guess.
just glad it is him holding the government to account now, if it were the old one i dread to think
Dicks get to vote though.
I’m still in the “wish he was PM, but he doesn’t have what it takes to win an election” camp… but that front page is… well… surprising… maybe even perfect. Hmm… green shoots…
That's what I am taking from it, got a while to wait but am hopeful
I was very disappointed with Starmers first appearance as leader, when he blathered on about exit strategies. However, since then he's been rather good. That headline is back of the net stuff, the words are brilliant, so econocomical and so precise.
Whilst others have pointed out that the best strategy for the Labour party is to keep their powder dry, there's still a part of me that feels someone from the opposition should have shouted "FIRE" much earlier, not out of political expedience but out of concern for the nations wellbeing. Had the government been held to account earlier the death toll, disruption and general chaos could have been lessened.
There’s no point.
This isn’t a cabinet government where people have input. They’re listening to nobody. This is a PR exercise. It’s Dominic Cummings dictating terms while a bunch of nodding dogs are pushed in front of the cameras to deliver it.
Starmer is bright enough to let them get on with it, as he can’t influence anything. He knows that his time will come to take them apart further down the line for this almighty cluster****. They own this. And I can’t think of many better people to hold them to account for it.
Just thank god we haven’t still got that beardy Marxist idiot delivering his 10 second shouty thing for Twitter
I can't think of anybody better to do it to be honest. Boris's suite of oratory tricks has finaly met its match. He's looks like he's getting a dressing down from the deputy head master,
I wondered wether performing well in parliament would make much difference to the bigger picture, though it seemed to knock Boris out of his stride sufficiently to get him making up promises on the spot, that led to all the lockdown ending excitement that ended up putting a rift between some of the RW press and the Dom and Bo Jo show.
Looking forward to the next episode of Crown Court.
Sorry, I meant PMQ's
Looking forward to the next episode of Crown Court.
This.
The moment when he briefly held up the graph before pointing out the hypocrisy in Boris' response was pure daytime TV gold.
I think we might finally (thankfully) have a grown up back in front line UK politics again...
In the Zip household he certainly has secured 2 votes from the Libs and I’m a party member.
How would you vote now?
I think we might finally (thankfully) have a grown up back in front line UK politics again
Yep, he was always going to be good at phrasing questions, making well though out statements and so on but does that matter to most of the voters?
Those voters who are outside clapping the NHS but happily voted in a Tory government, you can see thinking is not their strong point...
@kerley
I voted Tory at the last elections and proudly clap the NHS on a Thursday, a decision (voting Tory) that I thought long and hard about. Generally speaking there was not a chance of me voting for a Labour government with Corbyn and crew leading the party, as I opposed their dealing of the Brexit situation, and plans to nationalise industries like rail and postal services. I am very pleased that the Labour Party has a new leader, as the country needs a strong opposition to challenge the incumbent government. Starmer and Labour now gives the country a realistic alternative to the Tories at future ballot box’s.
Btw, why do you have to make personal digs at folks who vote differently to you? People with different personal situations and backgrounds have alternative views to you, why can’t you understand that?
plans to nationalise industries like rail and postal services
Odd examples. A lot of people who vote Tory think those two should be back in the public sector fully, or more than currently. Probably Labour’s most popular policy with non-Labour voters. The wider public ownership policies might be reduced, or even dumped, but I’d be surprised if more public ownership of rail and the Post Office are dropped… they may be dressed up differently, but intervention in both will surly remain party policy (and for rail may even be Tory policy in four years time).
I voted Tory at the last elections and proudly clap the NHS on a Thursday,
Voting in an election is not a consequence free expression of your opinion, it's a conscious action which tells those in power how you want the country to be governed. By voting tory you clearly signalled your support for the running down and commercialisation of the NHS which has directly resulted in doctors and nurses not having the PPE they need and the resultant preventable deaths. So think about that next time you stand on your doorstep and applaud the people who back in December you didn't give a shit about. The emotion you should be feeling at that point is one of shame, not pride.
@kelvin
Odd to you maybe, but not to others. Several family members and work colleagues have similar views of state run services, some Labour and some Tories.
Odd to you maybe, but not to others.
I’m not talking anecdotes, or even my preferred policy, just stating the fact that increasing public ownership of rail (much of it already is publicly owned) is one of Labour’s most popular policies… with support well beyond its voter base… I would be surprised/confused if it was dropped under the new leader in an effort to broaden the appeal for the party…
https://fullfact.org/economy/do-public-want-railways-renationalised/
The Post Office nationalisation issue isn’t as clear cut, but it is popular with older Tory voters.
Anyway… beyond the people you know Frank…
Increased public ownership more generally is unpopular, but the Rail and Post Office are clear exceptions, which is why I was surprised to see them as examples. Expect Labour policy in future to reflect that… proposing more public ownership in areas the public support (low hanging fruit) and leaving any other proposals ‘till they’ve proven they can deliver on those areas before any suggestion of something with wider reach.
The emotion you should be feeling at that point is one of shame, not pride.
100% this - is there an element of "Tory voters clap for carers to assuage their own guilt?" I think a number of my family voted Tory - at this point I'd rather not know, but they all clap for carers and if they DID vote blue, the hypocrisy would piss me off.
@dazh Yes I’m aware of why elections are conducted, and as I didn’t want Corbyn in power I voted against him. Would I vote for Labour in the future? Definitely , if I had confidence in their leader and shadow cabinet to improve the running of the country. Sorry I won’t get sucked into the worldwide PPE shortage debate.
@Frankers it's not a debate about shortages but about a lack of preparation and planning as highlighted by the Cygnus Exercise the full report text is in the article.
Worldwide PPE shortage has nothing to do with Tory policy towards the NHS so stop looking for sticking plasters for cuts by a thousand knives.
I'm not going to list the shower of shite rained down on the service over the decades by their myopic ideology served up by successive health ministers determined to cut spending and flog services to their puppet masters.
Not liking Jeremy Corbyn is a good reason to not vote labour but voting blue is a wholly different thing entirely, either spoil your ballot paper or vote for other parties. Giving this group of arseholes a mandate is just downright stupid.
I've posted here before that there's a difference between winning an argument in parliament and winning over the public.
What I hadn't factored in was that we could have a leader of the opposition who is so precise in this questioning that he wrong foots his opponent and causes him to flounder, making promises on the hoof that he wishes he hadn't.
Starmer's performance in PMQ's had immediate outcomes, it ended up disrupting the tories relationship with Fleet Street, ruining Cummings plans for Victory over Euope day and It ended up landing him the most positive Daily Telegraph front page I can ever recall for a Labour leader.
One thing about the PPE shortage, apart from all the issues of procurement, is that our usage is very high for the exact same reason that our death toll is really high- the late lockdown that caused the virus to spread so much further, creating many more patients and accordingly much more consumption of PPE. Everything's connected.
What I hadn’t factored in was that we could have a leader of the opposition who is so precise in this questioning that he wrong foots his opponent and causes him to flounder, making promises on the hoof that he wishes he hadn’t.
It’s now a Lawyer with experience of representing the underdog against wealthy big business (McD’s) v’s a raffish oaf who’s only skills are being able to order a case of claret and a pigs head for a bullingdon club shindig.
Worldwide PPE shortage has nothing to do with Tory policy towards the NHS so stop looking for sticking plasters for cuts by a thousand knives.
The NHS shortage of PPE is entirely the fault of the Conservative government.
I don't see the need for all the insults aimed at frankers. Respecting others choices isn't always easy but if we don't then we become the thing we hate. Some pretty offensive remarks from those that claim to be superior to the implied stw stereotype of a Tory voter. Bigotry isn't a good look.
Back on topic, I'm not seeing anything to get optimistic about with starmer yet, its a political period where personality appears to be key. I'm really not seeing any sort of passion to win people over, being sensible might not be enough however long he has.
Back on topic, I’m not seeing anything to get optimistic about with starmer yet, its a political period where personality appears to be key. I’m really not seeing any sort of passion to win people over, being sensible might not be enough however long he has.
Agree which is why I think he is a good choice politically (running rings around the government) but a poor choice to actually win an election as most people won't even remember who he is. You almost need a puppet leader who is really popular with someone like Starmer controlling the strings.
You mean a bit like Dom and Boris
Agree with exsee, no need to get personal although it does apoear to be a trait of the left.
There is a world wide PPE shortage, that's a fact and other countries are having problems as well. Does that let the Tories off the hook, no, but then if Labour had been in power I doubt it would have been any different, short term idiots all of them.
dahz, other countries have had less deaths, but a similar order of magnitude to us so suggesting their death rates are a fraction of ours is disingenuous.
Did we lock down too late, maybe, do we have a useless government who are massively out of their depth and only reacting to changing circumstances rather than manage it, absolutely.
As for where we are now, i think a lot of Labour members need to take a long hard look at their own actions, backing Corbyn was bad for the Labour party and very bad for country, that's the main reason we've got the idiots we have now, it was Labour's election to lose and they absolutely threw it away.
Many parts of the left of Labour are as myopic, selfish, and self serving as the right, they appeal to the politcs of envy and stoke up as much societal division as the Tories.
For what it's worth I'm a small c conservative, i don't like big state and magic money trees, they don't work. However that pales into insignificance compared to the suicidal and populist policies the current government is pursuing. For the record much as I hated what Corbyn stood for I held my nose and voted Labour in the last election as many on here appealed for people to do. If I can react and change who I vote for it's a shame others on here can't get past their dyed in the wool prejudices, we've had good and bad government's of all political persuasions. Constantly demonizing one side or the other is not helpful or grown up.
I don’t see the need for all the insults aimed at frankers.
Agree with this.
Agree with exsee, no need to get personal although it does apoear to be a trait of the left.
Don't agree with that - allow me to introduce you to the dog's abuse Corbyn bore with good grace. It's not single-sided by any means.
I don’t see the need for all the insults aimed at frankers.
I haven't insulted him.
I've stated what I think of Tory governments.
Don’t agree with that – allow me to introduce you to the dog’s abuse Corbyn bore with good grace. It’s not single-sided by any means.
And this.
Especially considering the disgusting, institutionalised abuse and downright lies aimed at individuals in the Labour party during the last election.
Pure hypocrisy.
And there you go again, Labour were no better. There's good, bad, nice, evil, incompetent, competant people on both sides.
There’s good, bad, nice, evil, incompetent, competant people on both sides.
You paraphrase Trump talking about fascists and those who oppose them, not a good choice of words to back up your argument.
And there you go again, Labour were no better. There’s good, bad, nice, evil, incompetent, competant people on both sides.
I invite you to regurgitate the lies and abuse from the Labour campaign in the last election.
So a voter who’s previously voted Tory is saying he would potentially vote labour next time is met with a barrage of abuse?
How very Corbynite.
They never really did get the hang of this democracy lark, did they? Actually convincing people to vote for you. As opposed to telling them to **** off?
Still.... ideological purity is very, very important. Actually getting elected? Not so much though, eh?
Would you care to provide examples of your posts over the past few years that have encouraged the floating voter to vote Labour? 🙂
.
Actually getting elected? Not so much though, eh
Currently there is no evidence that your brand of Labour is any closer to getting elected.
Apart from the Tory voter who’s saying he’d now vote labour, which he never would have done with magic grandad in charge?
Great logic there, comrade
Ah well, another politics thread I'll not contribute too.
Binners, have a think about that the next time you post about bullying and disrespect.
Love to all.
Apart from the Tory voter who’s saying he’d now vote labour, which he never would have done with magic grandad in charge?
Great logic there, comrade
And yet if for every Tory voter that comes onboard >1 leaves, then it's not so straightforward.
If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.
@binners If you’re referring to my comment, I didn’t say I would now vote Labour, however I am I very interested to hear what new proposals and policies Starmer has to offer.
Sorry I was not able to reply to all the previous comments aimed in my direction. I was busy weeding the garden and unsuccessfully trying to tubeless my road wheels.
Whichever way you slice it, this country now has a considerably more credible opposition than its had for the last 4 years. There’s another 4 years to build on that before the next election.
So a voter who’s previously voted Tory is saying he would potentially vote labour next time is met with a barrage of abuse?
How very Corbynite.
It seemed to be Starmer supporters piling in. Yet another example of you ignoring anything that contradicts your prejudices.
Starmer's switched Labour policy during the crisis from 'rent suspension' to 'rent deferment', hoorah, solidarity with the landlords! This is only the beginning and it must be a real joy for those who backed him. It's delightful and reassuring to see Lord Sainsbury being involved in financing a Labour leader.
Let's keep to evidence. Hurling insults and name-calling simply reflect conceptual impedimenta, inarticulacy and an absence of convincing arguments.
Labour are also advocating bailing out Branson to save the aviation industry. All that will do is line Branson's pockets, surely we'd be better spending the money on retraining staff as we can't travel with the frequency we did before. Although Corbyn was crap at least he wasn't a Tory
https://twitter.com/labourpress/status/1259065360952840194?s=09
So which workers should Labour want to protect the jobs of, without accusations of being “Tory”?
Why don't they loan out money instead of bailing them out, i.e. the lender gets it back, with interest preferably?
Edit: ah, after a quick DuckDuckGo; bailouts can take the form of loans. If that's what the UK government generally does, that sounds reasonable.
I wouldn't accuse him of being a tory if he was suggesting helping workers rather than giving tax payers money to a billionaire whose business is not viable for the foreseeable. How is giving a bailout to Virgin Atlantic going to help the staff? How long will it keep them in a job? How will it resurrect the aviation industry?
If Starmer was interested in working for the people that money would be better invested in them, by providing retraining so that they can have job security in another sector.
rather than giving tax payers money to a billionaire
Where did you get that from?
Our government is funded by taxes, paid by people and businesses registered in the UK. Starmer is suggesting the government bailout the aviation industry, and Branson has been begging the government for money to keep his business going. Branson has a net worth of 4 and a half billion USD, but he can't stop the pandemic changing the amount and ways of travel. People are going to lose their jobs and giving money to Virgin isn't going to prevent it, and the only one to gain is Branson.
giving money to Virgin
Where did you get that from?
I read the news and follow current events. Who owns Virgin Atlantic and what do they do? Who has recently asked the government for help? Which idea is Labour supporting in my post above? Anyway, I'm going to trip trap off so you can troll someone else
Indirectly 100s of thousands of jobs flow from our aviation industry. BA alone employs 42000. There are more jobs at Heathrow than the entire RAF.
Which idea is Labour supporting in my post above?
I read what Jim McMahon wrote in the link you posted, and he doesn’t mention “giving Virgin money”, or “giving tax payers money to a billionaire”. If he or any other Labour spokesperson has pushed for that, please share a link.
If the aviation industry doesn’t get any short term help, be that through loans or other means, there are a lot of jobs on the line… and that is a sudden loss of big employers in some areas, this year, not the slow weening off air travel that may well have been inevitable (possibly desirable) longer term.
Anyway, there are going to be lots of sectors where government restrictions beyond June mean that jobs are at risk without state support … airlines, hospitality, tourism … and Labour will have to push hard to make sure that where the government (rightly and necessarily) restricts trade, it also offers (qualified) support.
faerie, we've done this weeks ago.
Suggest you review previous posts.
If Starmer really is a political animal now is the time to kick Joris Bohnson squarely in the balls.
People in general are confused and angry.
Raaaaaaaaab is being trotted out on R4 in a bit.
I sincerely hope they are going to skewer him.
The political time is right for Starmer to pile in.
Morally? To be honest probably not, but this is politics and if you don't fight dirty you don't fight at all.
Missed.
Michelle Hussain had an off day there. She allowed Raab to say the same vague shite again when pressed and then didn't go after him for it.
The political time is right for Starmer to pile in.
This. He's got to go for the jugular and has a perfect opportunity this afternoon when Johnson gives his statement to parliament. Should be a fairly straightforward task of pointing out that Johnson doesn't have the leadership qualities required in a national crisis and that he's sacrificing lives by rushing people back to work before sufficient safeguards are in place.
This. He’s got to go for the jugular and has a perfect opportunity this afternoon when Johnson gives his statement to parliament. Should be a fairly straightforward task of pointing out that Johnson doesn’t have the leadership qualities required in a national crisis and that he’s sacrificing lives by rushing people back to work before sufficient safeguards are in place.
It's an open goal. Even the Tory media are struggling to put any kind of positive spin on it and a large proportion of the rest of us are looking on incredulously.
Now.
Branson WAS worth 4.5 Billion
Stelios was worth plenty in his Monaco penthouse, but the govt happily gave him £600 million to park his planes.
How is giving to Branson any less or more a fair use of taxpayer money? Is it coz Virgin are more elitist than Easyjet?
Or just that Branson is a nob? Even if he's trying to sell his spaceship to help the airline?
Industries are suffering across the board. The industry that I and many of my friends work in has been put in the deepfreeze.
I have my reservations about bailing out the airline industry and other large, over extended corporate entities. (Same mistakes being made as 2008) BUT. How soon do we expect air travel to return to normal.... 5 years? 10 years? Never? Leisure travel will be hugely impacted due to economic woes around the world and business has already adapted to a world of skype and zoom.
The airline industry might be the last of all industries to recover, so why support an industry built for a different world. It sounds harsh I know but airlines don't look like a good investment right now and loaning money to a bad investment might end up in that money just being given away when the airline goes bust anyhow. If that happens they aren't going to be repaying the loan but the owners and shareholders will be sitting pretty.
You say that, but last week Heathrow are still planning to appeal the knockback to the third runway as they expect the capacity to be back to normal in no time.
I think they are living in a different era. Time will tell.
other large, over extended corporate entities
How many industries have enough cash in the bank to deal with 3-6-12 months doing nothing productive? These industries have grown up on a use other people's money and "over extended" looks very different in May 2020 to what it did in January.
Any sector facing restrictions on trade from the government after June will need fresh measures to keep people in work. The aviation sector is no different. They can’t keep people in their jobs while their business is all but shut down by order of the state without (conditional) help from the state.
It’s an open goal. Even the Tory media are struggling to put any kind of positive spin on it and a large proportion of the rest of us are looking on incredulously.
Now.
If there is one thing we have learned in the past couple of years, no matter how useless the prime minister, the tories will not side with the opposition in any meaningful way. No matter what happens, we have them for 5 years.
It is better to just keep holding them to account and slowly turn the screw. 5 years of exposing their incompetence rather than a few big and fast but soon forgotten victories is the best chance of winning the next election.
Radio4 about to broadcast a ‘message from Keir Starmer’… is this what you get when the government doesn’t allow journalists to ask questions?
Charisma free… but correct tone, and questions, and looking to the future. Get the right actor to deliver those same words, and it would be standing ovations across the country…
Perhaps this year will have people looking past charisma and delivery (Johnson style) and looking for something else… I’m not holding my breath though.
Not bad. I wouldn't have been able to leave the words 'shambles' or 'fiasco', though.
Really want to wake up one day to find that man in number ten. I still can’t see the path to it though.
The contrast doesn’t get much starker than the calm, measured tone asking concise and pertinent questions and the meaningless waffle that was supplied as a non-answer to any of them.
With every encounter, Johnson ends up looking even more lightweight and clueless
Anyone got a link to the radio 4 thing? Can't find it (easily) on bbc sounds...
Charisma free… but correct tone, and questions, and looking to the future
Really want to wake up one day to find that man in number ten. I still can’t see the path to it though.
You probably wouldn't have seen Attlee defeating Churchill then, a charisma free man if ever there was one but efficient calm and determined. The more the blustering shambling pathetic Churchill tribute act hams it up the more cutting the quiet forensic and calm approach will be. Remember he's not playing this role for you it's for those that actually voted for Boris and it's to win over the press. The greater the contrast the greater the impact.
voted for Boris and it’s to win over the press
At the minute. Boris’s incompetence is responsible for the deaths of 10s thousands of people who by and large, vote Tory.
Remember he’s not playing this role for you it’s for those that actually voted for Boris and it’s to win over the press.
I need also to remember he has to take an approach that works over years, not weeks. And I do keep telling myself that. And yes, as you say, he has to win over people who don’t currently want him to be PM, not those of us that do, and that is the whole point. And I keep telling myself that as well. The “not left wing, just want a competent government” voter might be ripe for swapping their vote from Conservative to Labour in a few years time, even if the real Johnson populist fans aren’t.
I still can’t see the path to it though.
The only way, I believe, is to publicly drive a wedge between the Tories under Joris and the right wing press. This is made all the more difficult in the age of selective feeding of 'news' via social media.
It will have to be something along the lines of making it obvious that the press can no longer stand behind 'their man' because that man is so utterly useless, incompetent and dangerous.
But this is going to be very difficult because Joris is effectively fronting their alt right takeover for them. Starmer must hold Joris up to ridicule publicly and link him with that section of the press at every opportunity.
Today was a good start, though. Magic Grandpa would still be trying to have a show of hands about what to do, or be uncontactable in his potting shed.
Was a thing on the news the other day about Warren buffet pulling all good airline investments.
Iirc, his companies had about 10 percent of all the US airlines.
And he's getting out.
Not a wide place to invest now.
Nice speech, the delivery doesn't bother me but it's just sound bites if he doesn't back it with policy or action. At least he's asking questions but he's no opposition to the tories when he's adopting their policies. I'm disappointed so far, and Labour wouldn't get my vote yet