I don’t think anyone, Starmer especially, has clean hands when it comes to the election defeat.
Quite. Do we purge everyone who served in the shadow cabinet since they last won in 2007? Or just the people Binners doesn't like?
Locally, the leader, and lack of trust in thereof, was far more important than Brexit.
I’m hoping RLB gets a key role.
I have I idea what the purpose would be of seeking to pin the blame on RLB or Starmer for the failure of 2019. Only one name came up with people I failed to persuade to vote Labour… Corbyn.
Stuck record time… but the new team needs to include the best of the old team, and people who left or refused to serve under Corbyn, and entirely new faces.
Not giving RLB one of the biggest positions, but giving her another key role, would be the right move from Starmer… but RLB might turn that down still. We’ll see soon…
Binners and co dont want a united party. They want to purge the unbelievers and recast the party in their pure image.
This is exactly what needs to be done, you had your chance and blew it spectacularly causing so far five years of tory rule(excluding 2010-2015, That's on Cleggs hands).
I still find it amazing that you lot even thought that Corbynism or whatever you wanted to call it, would have succeeded when the range of opposition against you was obvious.
Blair won by appealing to a wider range of voter, alot of them tory, Corbyn was never going to do that, But Blair also had help from a certain media outlet who at the time was feuding with Major, and with the voting system the way it is...he needed it.
The road back will be even more difficult now because of the abundance of fake news circulating through social media, 5G masts anyone? Most of the population in my view are poorly educated, lack critical thinking capabilities(Not common Sense, because it's wrong in a lot of cases) and they "don't do politics" even though politics does them.
The voting system must be the first thing that is changed, if the tories have to get more percentage of the vote, then they have to appeal to a broader spectrum of voter, instead of this narrow viewed Privatise everything, destroy the state, totally free market Tufton street lunacy which went unnoticed by those who voted for them "to get Brext done". 44% of the vote and an 80 seat majority is unacceptable in a modern democracy.
The parties can only then become a broader church, or actually split into the four parties they always were, and coalitions can be formed, this also has the added benefit of introducing other parties that are not tory or labour into the equation...with potential issues.
The second thing will be dealing with the written media. You can't have a free press when so much of it is concentrated into so few hands.
Starmer has to be seen to be clearing out the failures, while I do agree with the he's "just another London elite", it's quite easy to counter this when you point out whose in Government.
The opposition now have to state the bleeding obvious and go full on attack for the next few years, there will be plenty of opportunity with this lot.
Outside of Liverpool the northern idiots believe whatever they read in the sun and the daily mail. It’ll be Red Ed all over again with the added bonus of him being a posh lawyer from ‘that London’. If there’s one thing I’ve learned from a lifetime of living up north it’s that the chip on the shoulder is much stronger than any rational thinking about what’s best for them.
some chips are larger than others......
The road back will be even more difficult now because of the abundance of fake news circulating through social media, 5G masts anyone? Most of the population in my view are poorly educated, lack critical thinking capabilities(Not common Sense, because it’s wrong in a lot of cases) and they “don’t do politics” even though politics does them.
there are people with PHds who are 5G conspiracy believers and seem happy to tell the world their thoughts
This is exactly what needs to be done, you had your chance and blew it
I'm beginning to think all this aggressive talk from the right of purges betrays a worry that Starmer isn't going to do what they want. He's said very plainly that the shadow cabinet will be balanced and that his primary aim is unity. That means it's going to need to include some from the left, and that mean RLB. The blairite resurgence is not going to happen, and in electing Starmer that's not what the membership voted for.
“the right” … it’s just Binners for god sake, not the brown shirts
it’s just Binners for god sake
I'm not talking about Binners, I'm talking about the prominent blairites who are all over twitter etc who are saying what Binners is repeating. They doth protest too much I think.
This is exactly what needs to be done, you had your chance and blew it spectacularly causing so far five years of tory rule
So nothing to do with the moderates who were more interested in destroying the left than beating the tories? The more I see the frothing and ideological extremism from the moderates the more I think Corbyn should have done what the lunatics tried to claim he was doing and booted a bunch out.
Blair won by appealing to a wider range of voter, alot of them tory,
That worked for a time. Which is the thing the moderate lunatics dont seem capable of understanding. You can only fool your core voters for so long.
Blair knew that hence why he walked away when he did. He left the mess for everyone else to clear up including large numbers of people who “don’t do politics” because they spent years in a system that didnt care about them because they werent swing voters. Honestly I cant blame them for it. Why bother when the parties will take your vote and ignore you.
Here is the thing.
Labour shouldnt really appeal massively to people like me.
Neither should the tories.
Should be primarily Lib dems or the Greens.
By having either of the others appeal to me it is telling a large number of their existing voters to piss off. Then where do they go?
By having either of the others appeal to me it is telling a large number of their existing voters to piss off. Then where do they go?
But they aren't the majority of the electorate.
Appeal to your core support or get elected seems to be the choice
Remember amongst all the rewriting of history Corbyn in 17 got more votes than Blair did in his last victory
Oh - and please stop referring to the labour right as " moderates". they are not. Starmer is a moderate ie in the middle of the party. Benn and co are on the right of the party and in many ways sit closer to the tory party politically
closer to the tory party politically
No, they really aren’t.
Appeal to your core support or get elected seems to be the choice
If your core vote is shrinking and you have no chance of being elected, what's the point? To always be in opposition for the sake of it?
YOu think Kelvin? I disagree. They would be quite happy on the left of the tories
RLB has education, then.
And the wrong Miliband returns!
El-bent
MemberBlair won by appealing to a wider range of voter, alot of them tory
Blair won by inheriting a winning hand from John Smith (and John Major, to be fair). Everything he changed was because he wanted to, not because he needed to, and it did not give them a win- though it probably made it a bigger win.
IMO one of modern Labour's biggest issues is that they've basically forgotten Smith, and totally bought into "Blair made Labour electable".
Starmer is a moderate ie in the middle of the party.
Nobody knows what position Starmer will take in 2024. The Torys will have a stonking great debt that (rightly or wrongly) they will run up so they're going to have to defend debt and sell it as a good thing. They 100pc cannot stand on a fiscal resonsibility ticket. Plus Boris has shown himself more than willing to get the chequebook out to buy votes so he might just outbid any porkbarrel Labour offer.
In that context it's hard to imagine Starmer going into an election saying 'Yeah, borrowing is great.'. So maybe he has to sell Labour as the party of fiscal responsibility. (*All* the parties in 2010 stood on a platform of reducing the deficit.)
I think Starmer's gravity and competence is going to be a bit vote winner. Boris's apporval ratings in the election were already poor and the inquiry into CV could be a disaster for him. So it's looking good for Starmer but he won't have the freedom of policy choice he'd like.
It may still be hard to picture at this point, but Johnson might not want a second term come 2024. We have no idea what Starmer will be fighting years from now, and so I expect there to be a lot of caution and a lot of keeping options open in the next few years for Labour.
In that context it’s hard to imagine Starmer going into an election saying ‘Yeah, borrowing is great.’. So maybe he has to sell Labour as the party of fiscal responsibility. (*All* the parties in 2010 stood on a platform of reducing the deficit.)
Yes they would all have to tell the truth for a change - the deficit is actually fiscally logical. Meaning that there is money in the private sector with a larger deficit. When the government doesn't spend the economy drops into flat-line, which is what we've seen pre-Covid. Hence the big spend programme.
I've got a feeling the way we should understand debt and deficit and how the Tories have played this 'household' budget narrative is going to strain them in the long run.
I will be amazed if the narrative changes though, as you're right parties tow this line.
It's going to change though as quick as Trump issues a 2.2 trillion dollar check.
It may still be hard to picture at this point, but Johnson might not want a second term come 2024.
I'd agree. Christ he might have to retire for health reasons. We have no idea what's coming. (Except a recession and a mountain of debt that will make 2008 seem like the good old days.)
We have no idea what Starmer will be fighting years from now, and so I expect there to be a lot of caution and a lot of keeping options open in the next few years for Labour.
Agree again. This government could easily wreck itself on Corona Virus and/or EU negotiations. The least Labour say for the next 24 months the better.
Shadow cabinet out in full. I do not know every name on it but overall happy. No real option but Murray for scottish sec and RLB gets education Disappointing to see Falconer back but there is not a lot of experience in that shadow cabinet. Glad to see no place for Cooper.
“the right” … it’s just Binners for god sake, not the brown shirts
The irony there is that those of us who advocate mainstream European social democratic policies are derided as "Trots".
Never mind all that! Ed Millibean is back?! WTF?!!! 😳
The irony there is that those of us who advocate mainstream European social democratic policies are derided as “Trots”.
Describes me, and a lot of the people you’re so quick to denounce. I’ve not been called a “trot” yet. There is a certain kind of left leaning person that sees everyone else as the enemy though… or collaborators, or whatever. You can see how they elicit that kind of response. And, of course, there are those that left the communist, and explicitly anti European, anti Social Democratic left wing groups to join Labour when Corbyn became leader. Even I might call them trots, after a few drinks.
I think the repeated suggestions that Richard start a breakaway party would be fantastic in ensuring the comedy continues. He’d need to get some new badges though 😂
Describes me, and a lot of the people you’re so quick to denounce.
I think that any cursory examination of the Corbyn and Labour Party threads would show that most of the abuse is aimed in the other direction.
I’m not talking about the weight of negative reactions and commentary in general, you could well be correct about that. I’m suggesting that the support for “European Social Democracy” and “trot” accusation don’t go hand in hand at all. Those that came from Communist and far left groups to Labour were mostly anti-European and against Social Democracy, they see it as the enemy of “real socialism”. See the Straight Left people, especially those that were in the Communist Party of Britain.
Bloody Marxists!
Let’s avoid this turning into a history bore off, and look forward.
Andrew Murray is gone now though, yes?
Remember amongst all the rewriting of history Corbyn in 17 got more votes than Blair did in his last victory
Still winning the argument.........
Never mind all that! Ed Millibean is back?! WTF?!!! 😳
I'm looking forward to 20k plus air miles a year Miliband telling us we need to pay more for basic necessities as part of a climate change strategy
Or "rewrite my dad's will to avoid inheritance tax" Miliband telling us to pay more tax for public services
How much many membership fees did it cost to get rid of Milne?
Lammy!
About time.
I'm suggesting that the support for “European Social Democracy” and “trot” accusation don’t go hand in hand at all
I agree, it's a ridiculous line of attack.
Well Binners - you've got Ben Nunn in place of Milne.
I hope you're going to give his historical corporate / public flip flop a hard time...
Lammy!
About time.
Im so stoked about this - hes amazing he talks with such clarity and conviction. Overall im not too mad at the cabinet although ed miliband coming back has proper thrown me.
I do wish everyone would get behind the party I feel the infighting has cost us over the year and it would be nice for it to end. I get people wanted to see a continuation of Corbyn its not what eve have ended up with.
Its utterly absurd and shows just how little understanding of the true political situation is that people and policies get called "hard left" for wanting things that are the norm in the european social democratic tradition
you’ve got Ben Nunn in place of Milne.
I hope you’re going to give his historical corporate / public flip flop a hard time…
I'd never heard of Ben Nunn but a quick google suggests he's exactly the sort of person required in every sense.
In contrast Seamus Milne was a total embarrassment. The only thing Milne has over Nunn that I can see is Oxbridge rather than Birmingham.
So no, I doubt anyone could think of any sane case to give Nunn a "hard time". In contrast Milne was the easiest of targets.
people and policies get called “hard left” for wanting things that are the norm in the european social democratic tradition
True enough.
And then there are the anti-European anti-social-democrat people that Corbyn brought into key roles in Labour. There were plenty of people who were never going to vote to let those kind of people into no.10, even if they like the policies the party were putting forward. You have to trust who you are giving power to when in the voting booth, not just what is in their manifesto. When I voted I held my nose and hoped the Labour MPs and members, or the SNP and others, would somehow keep the back room men in check if Labour did get into power.
Overall im not too mad at the cabinet
No one will be. It is broad, so most people will be pleased with some appointments, and dismayed by others. If Starmer gets it right, there should be someone for everyone… but no one will be pleased with all the appointments. I think he has been getting it right as it happens… most appointments are people already on top of the brief they are given… and the team will change over the next few years anyway.
Lammy though. Let’s hope that works out. He’s a proper talent in my book. Such a good move to give him that role.
Is it my imagination, or is STW in agreement that Starmer has put together a decent cabinet?
I think the return of Miliband is the biggest contention. In the last few years I think he’s proven himself, and he can definitely do the role he’s been given, but not sure it gives a good “moving forward” message to the general public.
For the first time in ages I’m feeling hopeful so yes
I think the return of Miliband is the biggest contention.
My memory is so poor, remind me, what did Ed do wrong?
