There’s a balance between the economy and CV deaths and the Government *will* get it wrong just as every Government in the world will.
There is no balance, the only consideration should be reducing the number of deaths, and then doing everything that needs to be done on the economic front. As we're now seeing they're doing neither. The deaths are on track to be the worst in Europe, and millions aren't getting the promised help in economic terms. But labour seem too scared to point out this obvious fact, and now are making the govts excuses for them.
There will be an economic cost, it is unavoidable, whereas thousands of deaths are avoidable. Agree with Dazh that it’s not a one or the other thing. And the government have dropped the ball as regards both in terms of execution, even where they are getting the tone and headlines correct. No one really knows how any of the help offered to companies and individuals will actually work, or when they will be delivered, or who will fall through the cracks. Labour should be all over those aspects more vocally (plenty of measured questioning and challenging going on). But again, the ‘helpful’ rather then ‘confrontational’ tone right now was no doubt deliberately chosen, and it easy to understand why, even if it is frustrating.
Well I see the leaked labour report detailing how the party heirarchy actively conspired against the leadership and the membership has blown up today. First real test for Starmer. If he doesn't expel those responsible, including Tom Watson and Ashworth's wife he's going to see tens of thousands of resignations from the party and those who stay will be actively mobilising against him. Binners was right, the labour party is a joke, but it turns out it wasn't the Corbynites who were the problem.
Awful tactics. Wish it had worked though. Corbyn being gone years ago would have wise.
Now, can Starmer prevent a tit for tat downward spiral of leaks and mud slinging?
Wish it had worked though.
It did. They successfully prevented a labour govt in 2017. Nice work!
Now, can Starmer prevent a tit for tat downward spiral of leaks and mud slinging?
Yes he can, by getting rid of all who were involved by expelling them from the party. Anything less will cause a war with the left. They have literally no defence.
They successfully prevented a labour govt in 2017.
Yeah, right, of course they did.
by getting rid of all who were involved by expelling them from the party
Will the last person to leave the Labour Party please close the door behind them?
I’m upping my guess of 10 more Tory years to 20.
Christ, they even thought Andy Burnham was too left wing. Clearly Corbyn's biggest mistake was not ridding the party of these c****. Don't underestimate how the membership will react to this, they will quite rightly feel utterly betrayed by the party's non-political leadership. Starmer has got quite a job on his hands.
https://twitter.com/AndyBurnhamGM/status/1249424188454076421?s=20
Anyone know if Starmer has any experience of defending GDPR breaches?
Anyone got a link? Can't find anything about this...
Anyone got a link? Can’t find anything about this…
Hardly a surprise as only one newspaper has mentioned it. You can only imagine the coverage if it was the other way round. Twitter has exploded with livid activists and members venting about the time and money they spent campaigning being wasted a party hierarchy which was actively conspiring against their efforts. It's pretty nuclear stuff.
There's a good summary here.. (yeah, yeah, it's novara etc)
Do you have a link to the leak in full, rather than the summary from… well, you know?
Has everyone involved been reminded that they should be in the Tory party? They should have got the message by now. The voters did.
Have the counter leaks started yet?
Thanks dazh, that's helped, at least I know whats happened now.
Is this just the start of all the evidence about how split the party's been?
Well I see the leaked labour report detailing how the party heirarchy actively conspired against the leadership and the membership has blown up today. First real test for Starmer. If he doesn’t expel those responsible, including Tom Watson and Ashworth’s wife he’s going to see tens of thousands of resignations from the party and those who stay will be actively mobilising against him. Binners was right, the labour party is a joke, but it turns out it wasn’t the Corbynites who were the problem.
As with all things like this ask " cui bono? "
cui bono?
Johnson and friends.
I thought it was pretty obvious that plenty of folk in the Labour Party hierarchy detested Corbyn in the run-up to the 2017 election, and plenty of people on both sides of the fence seemed to expend their energy attacking not the Tories, but the other half of their party.
The people leaking and exploiting this now are no different, just the other side of the coin.
Did anyone expect these deep-seated hatreds and self-destructive behaviours to simply dissipate under Sir Keir?
Do you have a link to the leak in full, rather than the summary from… well, you know?
The full report hasn't been published or released. It really doesn't matter who reports on it though, the whatsapp messages are there in black and white. The question to ask is not why only leftwing channels are reporting it, but why rightwing news outlets aren't. Here's a less partisan account.
One of the highlights is Tom Watson delaying the expulsion of Livingstone from the party so that it caused problems for Corbyn. You couldn't make this shit up really.
who reports on it though
Of course it does. Just as it matters who the leak is from. There is two opportunities to be selective and shape the story… which information is leaked to reporters, and then which information the reporting is focused on.
One of the highlights is Tom Watson delaying the expulsion of Livingstone from the party so that it caused problems for Corbyn.
That’s a good example. Let’s compare the reporting of that to the actual content, in context, once we have it all to see for ourselves.
Well. I wonder what the left did to undermine for instance Kinnock? This sort of thing has been going on in political parties since year dot, and it shows the two parties in one scenario yet again.
but it turns out it wasn’t the Corbynites who were the problem.
And was it not the "broad church" Corbynites who instantly accused any Labour MP (who held a differing view to Jeremy on any issue) of "undermining the leader and the Labour Party"?
Picking up lessons from the tories and their "its not our fault, its everyone else" tactic.
Twitter has exploded
Like facebook I only wish it had. Twitter is just a nut case magnet for all sorts with any political leanings.
Anything less will cause a war with the left.
Nothing Starmer can possibly do or say will make the corbynites happy, so he shouldn't try and he shouldn't compromise with them. What he needs to concentrate on is who actually matters, the voter at the next election.
There’s a good summary here.. (yeah, yeah, it’s novara etc)
So why quote it from "luxury communist" Bastani and his luxurious spin on proceedings? That's as bad as Mefty quoting Guido Fawkes as the truth.
Do you have a link to the leak in full, rather than the summary from… well, you know?
The full report hasn’t been published or released.
It is available online.
Another summary here, but it does miss out some of the more damming parts of the report.
https://labourlist.org/2020/04/internal-report-lays-bare-poor-handling-of-complaints-by-labour/
I hear that the bastards are presently working to undermine Aston Villa’s chances of winning the Premier League
It is available online.
Do you have a link?
Well I can only find bits of it online, so who knows what’s from the actual leak, and what the full context is… bit if this is the source of the example Dazh used, then the reporting is a long way from what it says…
[img] https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EVfi4ZKWkAEhhAo?format=jpg [/img]
So rumours were going around, and they chatted about it, and that’s reported as though the rumours were fact? Must be more to it. Link me up with a link to all the leaked material around this point if you could, please. Rather than just the “reporting” of it. Ta.
I've got the full doc.
Let me find the link.
Can you pull out the section that forms the basis of the following “news” please Rone…?
One of the highlights is Tom Watson delaying the expulsion of Livingstone from the party so that it caused problems for Corbyn.
Had a quick look. Think it's page 306.
Trying to PM you but I keep getting the oops page. It's a bit tricky extracting stuff on a phone from a large pdf.
I can sort it on the desktop tomorrow or PM me.
Well, that was all a bit of a hyped up non-event, wasn’t it. Lots of angry voices shouting because they were told to.
Anyway, I’m agreeing with Dazh now that, despite picking a very good team, the new leader has been deeply unimpressive in his role so far. As I feared, dull… but worse then that, ineffective and missing all the seemingly easy targets as well.
It’s a total non-story. Always was.
But it has, however, fulfilled a vital role for the Corbynite left by providing them with their two absolute favouritist things in the whole wide world.
1. A change to indulge in ridiculous, tinfoil helmet conspiracy theories and retreat into their paranoid persecution complex where the whole world (probably lead by Mossad and the CIA) is against them because they know that they’re right about absolutely everything.
2. Subsequent hysterical, sanctimonious, moral indignation where they all get to express their increasingly hyped up self-righteous outrage to each other on Twitter.
Let’s face it. They love this shit. It’s what they live for. They’re never happier
Nobody else cares.
It's absolutely not non-story. Of course you would take this point of view because otherwise you would have to admit you were wrong over your own perspective.
It's a ****ing disgrace. I've been through quite a chunk of the doc. If you think about the amplification of this especially around AS - you can see exactly how this hit the spot.
The right of Labour are utterly toxic and have nothing in common with Labour values. You should see John Mann's attempts at calling out libel for the document.
Anyway how's Uncle Keir working out? Still banging on about exit strategies? Yeah of course he is.
He could be talking about the damage; the mis-handling of the whole episode himself, the under-resourced NHS or even better he could be talking about his own suggested exit strategy.
I used to love the line - "he's a statesman"... You've elected a political wet fart.
(Off topic why is the PM system not working . I tried to send info to Kelvin)
why is the PM system not working
Its been down for a while. There was a mass spamming last week so might be related to work to prevent more of that.
A change to indulge in ridiculous, tinfoil helmet conspiracy theories
Except the conspiracy theories have been proven right beyond any doubt. The right of the party were conspiring to make the anti-semitism issue toxic for Corbyn, and they were conspiring to ensure that labour would lose the election. Kier Starmer has one single task now, and that's to expel any members who have proven to be acting against the interests of the party. If he doesn't do so, his leadership is finished before its even begun.
Except the conspiracy theories have been proven right beyond any doubt.
You yourself picked out an example “story” for which there turned out to be no basis at all.
It is true that lots of people wanted Corbyn out, and that the fight between factions resulted in the wrong seats receiving campaign funding (trying to help keep Corbyn sceptics in parliament in 2017, and trying to get Corbyn allies into parliament in 2019, rather than a proper focus on maximising seat count to try and nudge the Tories out of office). The fight within the Party helps only the Conservative Party (well, and the SNP), but it cuts both ways, and all this noise and stamping of feet helps keep Labour in permanent opposition. Keep on being part of that if you want.
Anyway, Starmer… not going well so far, is it? Still think he’d make a great PM, but lacks the charisma or ruthless edge to win a general election. Is that what we are seeing, or does he have to tread too carefully while we’re going through the current crisis? If only we could have a PM suited to running a country, not a campaign. But Labour (and the country) need a leader who can do both, and I’d love a sign that they have one.
Rone, if it’s all on the internet, please link to it.
I’ve still only seen extracts, and none back up the story:
One of the highlights is Tom Watson delaying the expulsion of Livingstone from the party so that it caused problems for Corbyn.
It looks to be Labour staff talking about a baseless conspiracy theory, not them saying anything they supports that theory being true.
I think he’s bright enough to realise that playing party politics at the moment will not be received well by the majority of the public, with hundreds of people a day dying. And while parliament isn’t sitting, it’s also a pretty pointless exercise.
Given that the Labour Party has done nothing other than shout impotently from the sidelines for the last five years, he’s probably thinking that that’s all a bit played out now. And he’d be right.
There will be a reckoning for what’s happening at the moment, but I don’t think anyone would thank the Labour Party for insisting it’s carried out now. It’s simply not the time.
So it would appear that Starmer is a bit more switched on than his predecessor, who would no doubt be doing shouty YouTube sound bites to put on Twitter
I hope you’re right. Time will tell. A little sign that he is up the job (beyond getting his appointments so right) would be very welcome though. Nothing so far suggests he had the media presence part of the job anywhere near right.
And this grand conspiracy seems to amount to “mummy, he called me a horrid name”
Which is why it’s gained absolutely zero traction outside the People’s Front of Judeas Twitter account
I think he’s bright enough to realise that playing party politics at the moment will not be received well by the majority of the public, with hundreds of people a day dying.
+1
Yeah, he's worked that out and I suspect the little he is saying is purely aimed at members not at voters. (Asking for an exit strategy when all the variables that feed into an exit strategy are still unknown is bat-shit-mental. Plus the interviewers just respond with "Well would your exit strategy be" and he has to duck that.)
The less he says now the better - the election is 4 years away there will be plenty of time to score points over the handling of CV in future and by then he'll have the benefit of hindsight. He will be as aware of that as we are.
Asking for an exit strategy when all the variables that feed into an exit strategy are still unknown is bat-shit-mental.
Not really, Test, track & trace allows you to ease lockdown (& restrict again) locally as the data allows you. Starmer, im sure knows this, hes also seen that the government are flailing all over the place to try & set it up (hence hancock pulling numbers out of the air & getting touchy at every presser).
The government havent acted on lockdon, food supplies, PPE, care homes.... etc until pressure was applied from journos, now with an actual opposition these things can be done by our elected representatives.
otherwise you just end up with the bat-shit mental members of government making stuff up as they go along & causing more chaos & confusion
Nadine Dorres in a spat with Piers Morgan? A real clash of the intellectual heavyweights there.
The best thing Kier Starmer can do is keep as quiet as possible until we're safely out the other side of this, where I very much doubt the government are going to emerge with much credit.
And surely the changes that we'll see being demanded in our society as a result of this will naturally favour the political position of the labour party rather than the shrink-the-state free-marketeers opposite them.
So best to let that emerge naturally, surely? It won't need much political encouragement, so best to sit back and say nowt, rather than run the risk accusations of playing politics in the middle of a national crisis. The party now has the people at the helm who look like a serious potential government, so the hysterical protestations of Momentum et al simply aren't relevant to most people, no matter how many Tweets they put out
So, as for the Corbynites lefts present bout of outraged petticoat rustling... let them get on with it. Nobody, except themselves (on Twitter), is listening. The reality is that outside the social-media sixth form bunker/echo chamber, most people don't give a toss about the why's and wherefores of why Corbyn is gone, they're just glad that he has and credible opposition is now once again a feature of UK politics
Test, track & trace allows you to ease lockdown
Cool, good to have a potential plan on the table:
(Roughly) How many test would that require? Just to be clear you're talking about antigen tests, not antibody tests, aren't you.
(Roughly) How many people would be needed to do the tracing? Who would you use to do that job?
mosy people don’t give a toss about the why’s and wherefores of why Corbyn is gone, they’re just glad that he has
Do you agree that losing the 2017 election and the subsequent defeat last year was a price worth paying to teach the left a lesson, because that seems to be the view of the people in those whatsapp messages?
And it doesn't matter whether 'most people' give a toss about it, only labour members. If you hadn't forgotten the vast majority of those supported Corbyn, and a significant number voted for Starmer. They'll want to know what he's going to do about labour members and salaried staff who wanted the tories to stay in power. Given some left wing members were thrown out for liking green party tweeets I expect they'll be wanting similar action.
Cool, good to have a potential plan on the table:
(Roughly) How many test would that require? Just to be clear you’re talking about antigen tests, not antibody tests, aren’t you.
(Roughly) How many people would be needed to do the tracing? Who would you use to do that job?
exactly! youve illustrated why the questions need to be asked
Do you agree that losing the 2017 election and the subsequent defeat last year was a price worth paying to teach the left a lesson
No. Not a price worth paying. But it was clear that it was the only way they might learn the lesson*, but they did not.
Although, “the left” includes lots of people that thought the 2019 manifesto took too much of scattergun approach. So by “the left” I’ve assumed you to mean the previous leader and those around him, rather than most Labour members and voters. I think Labour members have learnt the lesson. Plenty of very left leaning people in the new shadow cabinet who also have.
[*I’ll summarise the lesson to be that you need 40%+ of voters to support you, and you can’t get that many people to identify as “the left”, so need to win over a hell of a lot of voters who don’t]
exactly! youve illustrated why the questions need to be asked
No, I've illustrated questions that the Dept of Health *will* have already worked out and we can pretty sure they aren't sitting on a Panacea and they've forgotten to tell us and all it need is Keir to ask the right question.
Nobody knows the combination of things that will get us out of this because nobody knows how many people have already been infected, when a scalable antibody test will come along, when a vaccine will come along or when the kit/people will be available for large scale antigen testing.
Keir understands this which is why when he has his own question asked of him he ducks it.
Daz - do you seriously think that the minor actions of a few people in the party hierarchy really made any significant impact on either election result?
Seriously?
And that otherwise we’d have had a labour government and Grandad in number 10?
I’m afraid that that is so far into the realms of pure Fantasy as to be ludicrous
All this is just the continuation of the delusional belief that nothing is ever the fault of St Jeremy
Everyone knows this, which is why, despite the hysterical reaction of the faithful on Twitter, it has been met by everyone else with the collective shrug that it warrants.
And Kier Starmer, like most people, has bigger fish to fry than a few Marxists with hurty feelings
What is it with antisemites and the Stab in the back myth ?
Are you suggesting Daz is an anti-semite? Or that the accusations being levelled are the work of anti-semites?
I'd suggest careful consideration of your answer and some evidence to back up your assertions before replying.
