Forum menu
mleh, there are folk I know that think along the lines of; unless you're thinking about, actively making plans for, or are in fact are being arrested because you've actually stabbed a Tory...You may as well be one.
Boris has lost the telegraph and to an extent the mail and the Sun as well because of both his incompetence and the way his comms team took the RW press for granted, making the culpable in this easing of
Lockdown fiasco.
How long will it last? Who knows, but I think there is another reason for the Tories to worry. Starmer has traded spin for the forensic approach. Journalists whose job it has been to re spin, un spin and counter spin political messaging are suddenly given the opportunity to do their jobs the way it says on the tin, and I think they're enjoying it.
Joris's team is trying to push out clouds of ink to distract from the fact Starmer did him up like a kipper.
That's all they've got, though, because it is common knowledge that Bohnson is intolerant of detail, broad brush, lazy and ****less. Starmer can go back to the well whenever he likes because Joris will always try to bluff, bluster and bullshit his way out of a corner because he won't have done his homework. It is rather lovely seeing the arch shyster on the rack.
But the Torygraph turning on him? It would be nice if it genuinely was because they want to back the sensible option. But we know the Torygraph and the Fail. They're probably lining up a halfway competent replacement, but one that is still enough of a horrible bastard for them.
But on the other hand again. Who can be competent and Brexity enough for the Tory press? Anyone competent with a shred of decency knows that the alt right project is a vile stitch up. Finding someone who is competent yet enough of a nasty piece of work might prove difficult.
kimbers
SubscriberJeez Starmer just crushed Johnson at PMQs
the braying mob of tories not being there helps, but he really is good at this
while Johnson is just desperately bad
No crowd, a serious/sad issue so Bojo cant make jokes both favour Keir. He should be (& is) making hay at the mo.
How long til Dumbojo's baying hordes are let loose again?
Let's hope it's a long time.
even moreso than Dazh loathes his wife for having a better education
Don't be fkn ridiculous, my Mrs was the one who got me into left politics, and in many respects is way more radical in her politics than I have ever been. That's cos she grew up in an environment where politics was borne out of ideology rather than gritty experience, much like Starmer did. Starmer is good, and hopefully will be the next PM, but lets not get carried away with this 'son of a toolmaker' faux working class hero bollox.
zippy - rees mogg has already been making noises about parliament 'resuming normal service'.
I would be happy to see it's current operation continuing for several more weeks to allow Starmer to dissect johnson without interruption or noises off.
faux working class hero bollox
Agreed. We’ve had years of that from the past leader.
You were the one that had this weird idea that Starmer some how gets an easy ride out of deference. His background only came up because of that. No one thinks he is a ‘working class hero’, we were just bemused by your deference claim… he’s no toff.
I would be happy to see it’s current operation continuing for several more weeks
It's going to be like this for months. That's why the rightwing nutjobs are getting so twitchy. This is natural territory for labour, now with an untouchable leader who they can't easily smear. The longer this goes on, the more they will be damaged. They'll rightly take the blame for the deaths, and the millions of lost jobs, and at the same time won't be able to celebrate taking the big state intervention measures to save the economy because their ideology doesn't allow them to. The only thing they have left is brexit, but come the end of the year the economy will be so f***** brexit will be an irrelevance.
he’s no toff.
You don't have to be an upperclass twit for the council estate scum to show you undeserved respect and recognition. I should know I'm one of them. A posh accent, a sharp suit and haircut, and vaguely sounding like you know what you're talking about will do it. All things Corbyn never really had as he was too busy trying to be one of the people.
council estate scum
WTF?
WTF?
Sense of humour failure? Trust me though, it's an accurate description where I come from. 😉
Someone rattled your cage Daz?
Are you describing yourself as an upper class twit or council estate scum?
If the latter, I'll rival you - council estate in Wallsend when Swan Hunters was the major employer.
As for the virtual parliament, rees-mogg is lobbying for resuming business as usual so I'm counting in weeks - not the months which you think.
Starmer is doing well so far and will only get better.
Corbyn is the past and lived in the past so....let's leave him there.
Ah, so it’s just you with the deference Dazh? It all makes sense now. I genuinely think that being a Sir helps him not one jot in the eyes of most people. His experience as a QC is clearly helping him in one narrow part of his role, taking on other politicians at the dispatch box, but more generally gains him no ‘deference’ from the public at all. But hey, if I’m wrong, and it is tool than can be used to edge him towards number ten, then I’d welcome it!
council estate scum?
I would have thought that was obvious. Turns out I wasn't far from you, this was a stones throw away, we used to have fun sliding down the girders and taking the piss out out of the teenage glue sniffers.
Having known him for years, I’m happy to confirm that Daz is indeed council house scum.
I thought I had a working class chip on my shoulder until I met him. 😂
I agree with dazh, the Sir bit helps enormously. I realised just how much England was a forelock tugging, class driven country during the last election. Regardless how good or bad Corbyn was (bad I thought, in the end) he was too easily painted as against the system, terrorist sympathiser, not one of us, etc to ever succeed. The English default to establishment if they are not sure so the tories always have a leg up.
Starmer by virtue of his title, regardless of his background or history takes away one of the tories key weapons and has the added gravitas as a QC. If Boris was from a stronger bloodline or hadn’t slapped the old guard in the face on the way up then things could be different but when you are dealing with foe as limited as this it makes it a turkey shoot.
Northern Labour supporter btw, Corbyn voter but backed Starmer to be leader.
chestrockwell
SubscriberI agree with dazh, the Sir bit helps enormously. I realised just how much England was a forelock tugging, class driven country during the last election
Rees-Mogg being your perfect proof. He sounds and looks posh therefore he gets respect. People say he's got class or "got good manners" as he sneers and patronises and misleads and trashes things he could never hope to build and profits from other people's misery.
He's an acceptable and electable 'alternative' because he's an alternative part of the establishment. He's backing the landlords over tenants, he supports apartheid in Israel (described in the Israeli press as one of the world's top 50 zionist influencers and financially backed by Trevor Chinn and Lord Sainsbury of the Friends of Israel). Has anyone yet noticed anything he's said yet that could be called socialist? What happened to all those claims about AS? I sincerely hope his supporters have all got secure jobs and incomes and that they've paid off their mortgage. Unless there is a sudden upsurge in industrial action, the LP will be right behind the tories making working people pay for this crisis, and won't they be loved for it, even given handles.
I agree with dazh, the Sir bit helps enormously.
Yep and the QC bit helps too. Nobody is saying he didn't work hard (harder than many based on his roots) to get the position and qualification but now he has it, it is clearly an advantage. A well deserved advantage but an advantage nonetheless.
Rees-Mogg being your perfect proof. He sounds and looks posh therefore he gets respect. People say he’s got class or “got good manners”
I've met no one, from privately educated or council estate background, who doesn't think Rees Mogg is a parody of an upper class entitled ****. Even my Brexit voting Torygraph reading parents would agree he gets and deserves no deference
More Cash - I have family who think the sun shines out of his fundament and consider him a perfect english gent
I’ve met no one, from privately educated or council estate background, who doesn’t think Rees Mogg is a parody of an upper class entitled ****.
Yet he keeps getting re-elected.
And that may be because of the "blue rosette on a pig" thing round his area. If he's the only Tory standing, he'll get the nomination and win.
Angela Rayner will never ever get elected as PM because of her accent. Rees Mogg has more chance.
Daz correct in saying that Keir being a Sir and a QC will help him at the ballot box. Doubly helpful as he got there from a working class backround.
They love an arriviste, it makes the class system look like a meritocracy.
And that may be because of the “blue rosette on a pig” thing round his area. If he’s the only Tory standing, he’ll get the nomination and win.
Could be. Yet he had to get the nomination in the first place, which brings us back to deference and privilege.
It's the deference and privilege bit that sadly makes some people think the more Labour look and behave like the tories the more electable they are. Probably true but they'll be electing tories.
Angela Rayner will never ever get elected as PM because of her accent.
This. Im a big supporter of Rayner but the sad reality is that she'll be fighting a losing battle. I reckon over the next 5 years we'll see the accent and rough council estate edges diluted because of that. Operation Make Angela Posh is probably already underway. It's sad because what this country desperately needs is a PM who has been through what Rayner has and understands how the cards are stacked against those at the bottom. For all his son of a toolmaker credentials, that's not Starmer, and we can already see evidence of that as Bill says with his refusal to defend renters against the landlords.
It’s the deference and privilege bit that sadly makes some people think the more Labour look and behave like the tories the more electable they are.
Quite. Is selling out Palestinians and selling out renters the price of a Labour government?
It seems sometimes, that the left are so keen for revolution that they refuse to accept evolution.
Given where we are now, shouldn't we take whatever we can get?
It seems sometimes, that the left are so keen for revolution that they refuse to accept evolution.
Given where we are now, shouldn’t we take whatever we can get?
A fair deal for renters and support for Palestinians seems like an odd definition of "revolution".
It seems that some are keen to paint the left as a monolithic entity, and to decide for them what they think.
I for one held my nose and voted for Blair in order to get the tories out. But Labour spent decades taking its core support for granted and the chickens have come home to roost.
The point was more that there seems to be this idea of labour perfection Vs Tory anything. I just don't understand why labour gets such a narrow shot while the Tories get such a wide field?
And that may be because of the “blue rosette on a pig” thing round his area. If he’s the only Tory standing, he’ll get the nomination and win.
Yep, exactly the same where I live. The MP (Desmond Swayne) has been in place for 20 years and even known for a bit of blackface but that is probably a plus for many of the racist voters who live here!
Labour will always be up against that and even SIR Kier Starmer won't change that although the Sir won't do him any harm and more palatable to the lifelong tory supporters that a marxist terrorist sympathiser...
The point was more that there seems to be this idea of labour perfection Vs Tory anything. I just don’t understand why labour gets such a narrow shot while the Tories get such a wide field?
Well, again, I'm unclear why support for renters would be equated with "perfection". I would argue it should be core to any Labour government.
In terms of them being held to a higher standard, I agree. I expect the Tories to be ****s.
Why is it always always always about the class war in this country?
Like the War on Drugs - nobody wins.
Why is it always always always about the class war in this country?
I guess because the those at the top wage that war on those at the bottom. What are those at the bottom supposed to do? Fight their corner or surrender and live in servitude? None of the benefits working people have (weekends, holiday pay, health and safety, maximum hours, protection from being fired) were handed to them on a plate by the bosses. They were won through organisation and sacrifice. It's not class war, it's working people standing up for themselves.
nobody wins
The upper classes have been winning for millennia.
Why is it always always always about the class war in this country?
It seems to be more about how many crumbs are dispensed from the top table.
Why is it always always always about the class war in this country?
It's apparent in what's happening now. The Tory government knows full-well that it's not safe to be piling on to tube trains and buses to go to work. But it's the lower orders who will be doing that, so it doesn't really matter. They literally couldn't care less.
They'll be safely isolated in their big houses with their Waitrose deliveries, at no risk at all. You won't be seeing any of them anywhere near public transport.
If we had a labour government I doubt that the line at this point would be 'get back to work, you plebs!'
‘get back to work, you plebs!’
‘…and trust the common sense of your employers to keep you and your family safe.’
Seriously? Nothing there about gender, race, sexuality, intelligence, disability etc?
The entire system and chance of thriving here is based upon where you grew up and what your parents did for a living? (and only if you can prove your bona fides - none of this born on a council estate and went to Oxford class treachery)
I am not entirely serious of course, but I do find your interpretation simplistic.
Seriously? Nothing there about gender, race, sexuality, intelligence, disability etc?
Your propensity to be shat upon from above is about more than where you grew up and who your parents were. The entire point is that class war is not something perpetrated from the bottom by unruly plebs and greedy workers. Class war exists because it's perpetrated by those at the top. To quote Michael Foot:
“We are not here in this world to find elegant solutions, pregnant with initiative, or to serve the ways and modes of profitable progress. No, we are here to provide for all those who are weaker and hungrier, more battered and crippled than ourselves. That is our only certain good and great purpose on earth, and if you ask me about those insoluble economic problems that may arise if the top is deprived of their initiative, I would answer 'To hell with them.' The top is greedy and mean and will always find a way to take care of themselves. They always do.”
Looking at it another way, I've come across very few working class people who resent or are embarrassed about others or themselves breaking out of their working class roots (I know I don't), but there are plenty in the upper and middle classes who resent working people intruding on their lofty and entitled positions.
As predicted the tories have started the attack on Starmer as the peados friend by tweeting a neo nazi doctored clip of him and then refusing to apologise.
They really are very worried, aren't they.
Good.
The fact that Dorries is involved is all you need to know.
Not only is she as thick as concrete reinforced pigshit, but she is also as close as you can get to a real life witch nowadays.
She rivals Priti Patel for 'who has the biggest, blackest void where there heart should be' competition within the Tories.
Also attacking QC who has got his shit together by libelling him is extremely foolhardy, surely.
They really are very worried, aren’t they.
Probably. But while it doesn't take a genius to dig a bit deeper to what check what nonsense it is...its out there muddying the waters, which is of course the plan. Rinse and repeat just like the last four years.
Another tory MP who also tweeted this has subsequently deleted her twitter account.
It seems that some are keen to paint the left as a monolithic entity,
Yes, that's what the right do...along with hardcore corbyn supporters.
Looking at it another way, I’ve come across very few working class people who resent or are embarrassed about others or themselves breaking out of their working class roots (I know I don’t), but there are plenty in the upper and middle classes who resent working people intruding on their lofty and entitled positions.
I note you carefully avoid saying "you know" upper and middle, just that "there are" some.
I think you might need to show your working out.
I know plenty of council estate people who thought that doing well at school and trying to get further education was 'poncy' and 'a bit gay'
There are dix of all kinds in this world; whether silver spooners or bottom dwelling scumbags.
I know plenty of council estate people who thought that doing well at school and trying to get further education was ‘poncy’ and ‘a bit gay’
There was a sizeable minority at my school like that. As said, there be knobbers in all walks of life.
Look at the stick footballers get. Working class kids earning loads and lots of em black. Any motor racing drivers get similar stick? Only one and...
I know plenty of council estate people who thought that doing well at school and trying to get further education was ‘poncy’ and ‘a bit gay’
There are dix of all kinds in this world; whether silver spooners or bottom dwelling scumbags.
Unfortunately they know no better, they have no life examples to show them otherwise, and when they do learn the truth it will be too late for them, their life will be set on a path it is very hard to divert from.
However the upper class bullingdon bullies are equally scummy, get away with it and inflict pain on the masses throughout their lives. But they always have a opportunity, and they always have choice, they just choose to be ****s.
Why is it always always always about the class war in this country?
Open your eyes and you'll see it's not.
It's been about all Brexit since Cameron really.
And that's been labour's unsolvable problem.
Didn't matter who lead them, or what the policy was, their voters were split between the two camps. Real single issue politics strong enough to change allegiances. Last election was unwinnable due to simple maths.
For Starmer, that's a problem that's not gone away.
He's looking good whilst cross examining an idiot who's made the biggest balls up in modern politics.
But my Nan could do that.
His real test will come in balancing winning back the northern Brexit labour vote, trying to tempt some Scottish vote back, and getting some swing from moderate Tories. Not so easy.
But for now, he's winning the argument.
It’s been about all Brexit since Cameron really
His real test will come in balancing winning back the northern Brexit labour vote, trying to tempt some Scottish vote back, and getting some swing from moderate Tories. Not so easy.
I was pleased to see this:
Starmer was a clear remainer, but happy to see he's not falling into the trap of calling for extension/rejoin whatever which the Tories can then use as a stick to bash him/Labour.
Keep the Brexit mess owned by the Tories. Will this do damage to the country? I think so yes. But there is no alternative now:
Didn’t matter who lead them, or what the policy was, their voters were split between the two camps
Exactly, those ex-Labour voters won't be won back with more "stop Brexit" talk. But they can be won back after the Tories make a mess of something that is inevitably going to be a destructive mess.
This has however cheered me up - maybe Nadine and her chums will be a little more discerning about what they retweet in future (long shot I know)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52653609
Mad Nad - living down to her sobriquet.
A great response to to the twitter video
Sir Keir said he was satisfied with the actions taken by the party and the MPs, who have deleted the tweets.
"There are more important things in the world to concentrate on than a doctored video of me," he added.
Acting again like a grown up to expose the Tory MP's as the stupid halfwits they clearly are. Far more cutting than overblown outrage.
avdave2
MemberActing again like a grown up to expose the Tory MP’s as the stupid halfwits they clearly are. Far more cutting than overblown outrage.
What's especially nice is that you can have it both ways- Starmer can take the high ground, while individual MPs can put the boot in with "are you not supposed to be busy dealing with a national crisis?"
He's annoying the right people.
https://twitter.com/novaramedia/status/1260864932486057984?s=19
Bodes well for having an effective opposition after too many years of cranks, tankies and cosplay commies.
+1 for both avdave and northwind
That novara link - yet more bollocks from ash sarkar's crew.
It's bonkers, isn't it? He's skewering Johnson and that's their response?
Fringe idealogues whose time and platform have gone.
It's like a dog barking at the moon.
The tories also have their idealogues; allison pearson of the torygraph springs to mind immediately for her distorted and irrational view of johnson.
His real test will come in balancing winning back the northern Brexit labour vote,
Some of that will take care of itself, particularly when the US trade talks news that isn't currently being shall we say "buried" by current events gets out.
Taking back control to 51st state.
It’s bonkers, isn’t it? He’s skewering Johnson and that’s their response?
That depends on how much value you assign to winning at PMQs.
On the BBC News site, there is:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52670086
It exposes a government run by a tiny inner circle and a mostly excluded cabinet. Has this little nugget in there too:
The emergence of an opposition leader who a Conservative source joked was "designed for this moment", creates more challenge too.
ransos - PMQs, at present, provides a very useful platform to expose johnson & co. In addition, it's getting media coverage.
Starmer - and wider labour party - needs to be seen to be supportive of gov covid-19 policy at present but also challenging and holding them to account.
That is exactly what he is doing.
It also allows the public to make a direct comparison between Starmer and johnson.
In current circumstances, 'winning' at PMQs has considerable value.
ransos – PMQs, at present, provides a very useful platform to expose johnson & co. In addition, it’s getting media coverage.
PMQs always gets media coverage, and as I've said before, William Hague used to outperform Blair with regularity. I understand that people are excited by their man winning at a specific contest, but it's not at all clear this leads to electoral success.
I understand that people are excited by their man winning at a specific contest, but it’s not at all clear this leads to electoral success.
Not winning at PMQs didn't help Corbyn though !
Fwiw Starner is obviously very smart & an excellent debater as shaddiw Brexit sec he routinely dismantled whoever was put up against him, Give & Raab were memorable , didn't he also do over Johnson
That said the fact is a lot of people don't like a smarty pants , including many Brexit supporting ex labour voters
So humiliating Johnson at PMQs not enough, now matter how nice it is to see.
I think not backing an extension is a gamble but at this point not much to lose, if the Tories are mad enough to push for a no deal crash out in December he probably can't stop them anyway & they will own that mess, as well as the backlash if they see sense & ask for one
Not winning at PMQs didn’t help Corbyn though !
I think that proves my point!
Starmer has a huge battle to get Labour back into power, no argument there.
All things consisted though, he is the person for the job at this stage for sure.
This is the start of a bloody long journey. With the virus,Brexit, economic turmoil, health crisis all happening and will continue to happen along with goodness knows what else comes along.
A good start for Starmer and I'm happy with the direction and handling so far.
As a Labour voter it's the "happiest" I've felt for a good while.
ransos, I'm well aware that PMQs always gets media coverage but thanks for the reminder.
It's now being covered more widely and viewed/listened to by many more people than (ever) before so Starmer's skewering of johnson is now reaching a wider audience.
Comparisons with Hague v Blair are irrelevant; their exchanges were verbal jousting.
We are now involved in the biggest national health, mental health and economic crisis this country has seen since, at least, WW2.
With that in mind it's appropriate for the opposition leader to support the gov's general approach but/and challenge where appropriate and hold johnson to account.
It's clear that Starmer is perfectly capable of that, at the very least.
We will only know about electoral success when an election takes place.
I don't think he has a huge battle. Ultimately he's a guy who's competent, level headed and seems decent to boot. A combination in surprisingly short supply in parliament. He's exactly what the country needs right now, but will also still need in 3 years time if we make it that far with current PM. As quick as Bojo got the votes he'll lose them again. Im going to stick my neck out here and say that he's the next PM with at least 3 terms in him.
ransos, I’m well aware that PMQs always gets media coverage but thanks for the reminder.
It’s now being covered more widely and viewed/listened to by many more people than (ever) before so Starmer’s skewering of johnson is now reaching a wider audience.
I assume that you have the figures to confirm this?
We will only know about electoral success when an election takes place.
Which is why your evident excitement counts for very little.
Justin Webb fairly neatly and calmly destroying Brandon Lewis on R4 right now.
He's been reduced to saying "I don't agree with that" before every sentence and then desperately avoiding justifying the assertion....because he can't.
Bohnsons's media punch bags just keep getting trotted out and taken off at the knees whilst he hides in his metaphorical fridge. Note that Raaaaaaab has now also been pulled back off of the frontline. Being protected (shielded even) from the pandemic of Joris Bohnson's inept leadership?
I just listened to that on Radio 4
So what Starmer pointed out has now been picked up, quite rightly, by the media. And as you said; Brandon Lewis’s had no answers, because they complacently ****ed it up.
Far from it being just PMQ’s, this is clearly now setting the media agenda.
It’s a long time since the Labour Party did that in a positive way. The Tory’s are really on the back foot over this. As they should be.
No doubt there will be lots more Nadine style nastiness in reply
I am waiting for Keir to say to a floundering bojo at pmqs "unfortunately no fridge to hide in here"
That novara link
Mleh, 10, maybe 11 people read Novara.
No doubt there will be lots more Nadine style nastiness in reply
Let's hope they overstep the mark, despite the careful coaching of Dom, and openly libel him.
It would be nice to see Sir Keir Starmer QC say with a smile on his face "I'll see you in court" to Nadine Dorries FW.
FW standing for....
Also, the momentum is with Starmer right now.
He should openly challenge Lewis to explain in full his chaff comment about being 'disappointed' and explain what he means by 'out of context' in this instance.
However, the Tories aren't daft when it comes to the muckier end of politics (it is their basic MO). They may well be doing a kind of DDOS attack on Starmer using otherwise useless backbenchers to smear him and hope some sticks. He won't be able to fight them all.