I don't know that anyone can be sure what the undercurrents are as they cannot explicitly state any pro EU or anti-Brexit stance for fear of either, spooking the Lexiteers and they can't suggest anything that could be painted as financially irresponsible because the RW press will tear them a new one for it - all the while ignoring the scale of Tory incompetence/embezzlement over recent times.
Anyone with any sense has just got to trust that Labour's cloak of Tory-lite is better than any flavour of actual Tory.
But I want a progressive government and I want to be in the EU.
For god sake man just wait a few years. If Starmer is true to his word you will get the progressive government you want. It won't be as radical as Corbyn promised, but if he follows through on everything he's proposing it'll be light years away from what we have now. If after a couple of terms of labour things haven't improved, then by all means lets have a debate about EU/single market/whatever. We've only been out of the EU a couple of years during a pandemic with a completely incompetent, dysfunctional and chaotic govt. What's wrong with a bit of patience?
And I'm really not a little Englander. If you'd read anything I've said over the past couple of years you'd see I've been consistently arguing for power to be devolved to the lowest practical level. That includes Scotland, Wales, NI, the english regions, and even towns and cities. If I had my way we'd have a federal system, and maybe we might get that in future. If Scotland were serious about being more independent and empowered then that's what they should be aiming for.
The implication is that Starmer will run a tory lite government of privitisation and austerity with a caring face
TJ you used to be one of the biggest cheerleaders for Starmer on here and dismissed the lefty criticisms of him, but now because you don't like his stance on the EU you suddenly think he's a closet tory? 🤷♂️
If I had my way we’d have a federal system, and maybe we might get that in future.
🙏🏼
TJ you used to be one of the biggest cheerleaders for Starmer on here and dismissed the lefty criticisms of him, but now because you don’t like his stance on the EU you suddenly think he’s a closet tory?
I had high hopes for him. I have changed my mind given recent speeches and announcements and his endorsement of Streeting
What has changed my mind? His refusal to talk about real constitutional reform. His refusal to even think about Scotland instead attempting to gaslight and patronise. His endorsement of brexit is the biggest issue and the lies he has told over this. Now todays speech includes further privitisation
there is nothing "progressive" on offer from labour
so we have an antidemocratic, privitising brexiteer - or in other words tory lite
Also the fact he has allowed Scottish labour to do deals with the tories and enter coalitions with them on councils
Labour have forgotton who the enemy is. Its not the EU, its not the SNP - its the tories.
Poundshop Blair.
The costed, social democratic manifestos of JC's leadership were worth voting for.
Brexit? Yes, I hate it's self destructive, ignorant stupidity, but I understand it.
Just as I understand the LA riots.
When you can't destroy the people who have ****ed you over, you turn your hate on yourselves.
This man is a coward.
Oh, Scotland;
Well done electing a decent leader.
Good luck with whatever you decide.
No, he is a realist and he's just trying to get Labour elected - which is nearer now than at anytime in the last 13 years. How did Corbyn work out for you?
What Winston said. If he goes too far off piste then the Daily Hate, Scum, and Daily Excrete will be all over him and demonising him to their readership and then what happens... He needs to play the long game.
I quite liked Corbyn but we saw how that ended up.
Poundshop Blair.
The PR and party management are the same as Blair, but the policies are well to the left of new labour and Miliband. And he’s the only mainstream political leader who seems to understand what brexit was about. The key question is whether he’s genuine or if it’s all just a smokescreen to get elected.
And how did it work out for Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband? They both managed to get Labour a smaller share of the vote in general elections than Corbyn did.
Starmer isn't trying to do anything, the Tories are doing it all for him.
And in a further boost to Starmer Reform UK has announced that they will stand in every single seat in the next general election. Last general election they stood aside in 300 seats to help the Tories beat Labour.
The Guardian: Reform UK to field candidate against every Tory at next election, says leader.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jan/04/reform-uk-field-candidate-against-every-tory-next-election-richard-tice
Give credit where credit is due but I don't see why Starmer should be praised for the Tories's kamikaze politics and their daily foot shooting exercises, or Reform UK significantly boosting his chances.
but the policies are well to the left of new labour and Miliband
What? Brexit, no democracy for scotland or serious constitutional reform, no redistribution of wealth, more privitisation and nothing for the health service?
Lying over brexit is his biggest failing. " no economic case for rejoining" ~Does he think we are stupid?
He is leading a centre right party now and an antidemocratic one at that
How did Corbyn work out for you?
He reminded me that the alternatives, cowardice and appeasement taste like shit.
He reinforced my belief that I'd rather live on my feet than die on my knees.
The media treatment of him reminded me that even at an advanced age, I might need to resort to violence to achieve genuine democracy.
Have you read this TJ?
Yes. pure wishful thinking. He has made it utterly clear. Lie about brexit. No serious constitutional reform. Scots know your place and do as you are told ( and he has made it obvious he neither understands or cares about scotland) Nothing for the health service, more austerity.
Do you honestly think Labour would be so far ahead in the polls if Corbyn and his front bench were still in place? In fact a big part of the reason the current crop of 'Torys' are in place is because of Labour party in-fighting over the last 5 years. I fully accept that the media went for Corbyn like he was some rabid dog but the net result was still no labour govt and this is the problem that Starmer is solving by steadily bringing Labour back to a party that can be accepted by mainstream media and therefore by those that are led by the nose by them.
Is it the right way to govern a country? No
Is it the only way to currently change the government? Well short of a full scale revolution, yes.
Edit (for Rustyspanner) Posted before I saw your last post. Rather live on your feet would you? Well how about all those are ARE dying on their knees, dying on their backs in ambulances and dying on streets all around the country due to an underfunded NHS and no social care. Yes Corbyn would have fixed this and possibly with better results than Starmer but not if he never got elected he wouldn't.
Why do so many people have a problem with a better government rather than a perfect government?
I hope Starmer is just lying to the Brexiteers. To be fair, they're usually happy being lied to, so it is no great shakes if he is.
Get elected then rejoin unilaterally, let the uncontestable benefits accrue and become obvious, then say "told you so", then legislate to make it illegal to ever consider leaving again.
Sometimes the fantasy world is the nicest one (unfortunately it is often the most sensible one nowadays).
🦄🦄🦄🦄
Corbyn would have been PM had labour in Scotland not had a pact with the tories that gave the tories 10 scottish seats
and an antidemocratic one at that
I have to say that what Starmer is doing to the Labour Party is what concerns me most. Even the control-freaky that occurred under New Labour didn't compare with Starmer's Stalinist grip on the party. A party that doesn't tolerate dissent and expels people on the most frivolous of allegations, such as liking the tweet of a Green Party member, is not a healthy party.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/labour-party-expelled-caroline-lucas-tweet-b2230584.html
Allowing Scottish labour who are 100% under london control to do deals and create coalitions with the tories is worse IMO. That shows how far right labour is now. along with a promise of more privatisation and nothing for Nurses, nurse training or the future of the NHS
Edit - especially when the labour / tory pact saved May, stopped Corbyn becoming PM and led to brexit. But then we always knew the labour right would prefer to be in opposition than to be left wing
The anti democratic bit is the refusal off a second scots referendum when we have voted for one 4 times. Thats a democratic defit worthy of a dictatorship
Well Danny is hoping that Starmer's anti-democratic credentials will help to achieve your rejoin dream:
I hope Starmer is just lying to the Brexiteers.......Get elected then rejoin........ then legislate to make it illegal to ever consider leaving again.
Edit (for Rustyspanner) Posted before I saw your last post. Rather live on your feet would you? Well how about all those are ARE dying on their knees, dying on their backs in ambulances and dying on streets all around the country due to an underfunded NHS and no social care. Yes Corbyn would have fixed this and possibly with better results than Starmer but not if he never got elected he wouldn’t.
Why do so many people have a problem with a better government rather than a perfect government?
How many people are you prepared to see die?
Why do so many people have a problem with a better government rather than a perfect government?
Personally, I find it hard to be enthusiastic about the prospect of a slightly less crap government.
Why do so many people have a problem with a better government rather than a perfect government?
Its not significantly better what we are being offered by Starmer
Pro brexit
Pro privitisation of the health service
Anti democratic on both Scotland and the constitution
the choice is hard right tory or centre right tory lite. Thats your choice for Westminster. It stinks. He has offered us zero on rebuilding the UK just a better managed decline and further destruction of the NHS.
Starmer is solving by steadily bringing Labour back to a party that can be accepted by mainstream media
Well the BBC is still the biggest broadcaster and very much in the hands of the Tories because the current government is Tory and as Billy Bragg noted you should wake up to the fact your paper is Tory.
So short of becoming a Tory Starmer won't be accepted by mainstream media. Perhaps this is why he looks and sounds too much like a Tory. A Brexity Tory at that.
Why do so many people have a problem with a better government rather than a perfect government?
One problem is if the "better" government is simply offering a bit better than the crap government is you normalise a lot of the crap governments actions and so shift the overton window.
By accepting the hardright press definition of whats acceptable you end up having anything slightly left wing defined as "far left" whilst rabid right policies Thatcher would have raised an eyebrow at now considered the norm.
Its also a tad rich of all the centrists announcing that now its time to pull together despite their actions.
Personally, I find it hard to be enthusiastic about the prospect of a slightly less crap government.
True. But a Labour government with a massive majority would be a colossal step forward, especially if Tory vote goes into meltdown.
The benefits which would come from such a situation would be huge and extensive, too many IMO to be bothered going through them.
Of course the next Labour government won't satisfy the needs of the electorate, and I have no doubt that Starmer will prove to be a hopelessly inadequate PM, but that will be one of the advantages of having a Labour government - it will help to put to bed the idea that right-wing economic policies are fundamentally correct as long as they delivered by a Labour government.
It will provide a basis for a step forward. But only if the Tories have been comprehensively discredited, which currently seems likely like never before, otherwise we will simply revert back to a Tory government at the first opportunity.
Personally, I find it hard to be enthusiastic about the prospect of a slightly less crap government.
It's like someone offering to pick the nuts or sweetcorn out your shit sandwich.
and I have no doubt that Starmer will prove to be a hopelessly inadequate PM
I genuinely have no idea what sort of PM he’ll be. I think after the lesson of Blair’s hopeless inaction we can be fairly sure he’ll be more proactive. I think we could see a tsunami of legislation in the first couple of years. I get the feeling he wants to actually do stuff.
A good litmus test will be whether he quickly brings in the reforms to workers rights he’s promising. Blair quickly found excuses to delay any changes on union laws and then dropped them. I fear Starmer will do the same under pressure from the business lobby.
we can be fairly sure he’ll be more proactive. I think we could see a tsunami of legislation in the first couple of years
I honestly have no idea where you get that idea from. I see a man who goes out of his way to say as little as possible. I base my opinion of what sort of PM he will be on what sort of opposition leader he has been - not very good imo.
The current 20 plus lead Labour are enjoying is overwhelmingly down to the Tories and little to do with Labour. For over a year now the Tories have staggered from one crises of their own making to the next crisis of their own making.
Starmer has sat back and watched a Tory government destroy itself. When he is PM in about 18 months time that will no longer be an available strategy. I have little doubt that once the light is shining on him and his government instead of the Tories, and he is exposed to intense scrutiny, that his personal popularity, as it is, will plummet. But we will see, not too long now.
Hmmmm
I think he will be perfectly competent as PM - as before I see him as a technocrat. Pity his ambition is so low and his outlook so right wing
I don't think he will blunder and make mistakes in what he tries to do.
I thought you said that he was a vote loser because of his brexit stance?
That was this morning, apparently based on the opinions of everyone around you - family and friends.
Now not only do you think that he will become PM but that he will actually make a "perfectly competent" one.
When did this change happen? About mid-afternoon?
Starmer will do fine as PM and I would take whatever he does over any Tory government. The only way a government would get anywhere near to perfection would be if I was running it and then my perfection would not be your perfection so see the problem?
A lot of people seem to forget that it is the voters who choose not a few idealists on an MTB forum and those people (for many reasons) tend to vote Tory more than anything else so maybe they actually agree with the Tory philosophy but get fed up with the reality after 12 years or so.
Starmer’s anti-democratic credentials will help to achieve your rejoin dream
Anti-democratic? When the current course of action is only supported by a minority of the electorate? Hardly.
Of course, it could be settled by a confirmatory vote, but presumably that would be anti-democratic too?
Ernie The two things are compatable.
Starmer supporting brexit is a vote loser. If he backed rejoin I think he would be more popular and would win seats in remain areas more than he would lose seats in leave areas given the majority for rejoin in the vcountry. I expect Labour to end up with no seats in Scotland. Certainly not more than a couple. The right policies ( rejoin, proper constitutional reform and so on) could win labour dozens of seats in Scotland but he is not interested in these policies or in Scotland
He will be perfectly competent in that he will not make major blunders like Truss did. He is a competent technocrat
The problem is he will be competent at being tory lite rather than being socialist. He will get where he wants to go but where he wants to go is tory lite territory
A lot of people seem to forget that it is the voters who choose not a few idealists on an MTB forum and those people (for many reasons) tend to vote Tory more than anything else so maybe they actually agree with the Tory philosophy but get fed up with the reality after 12 years or so.
I love how the solution to a broken system is more right-wing ideas because the left can't seem to construct a strong enough reason and solution to push back. I mean if you can't construct a robust left idea now then you probably never will.
The current labour party are full of cowards.
Just removing the Tory party in istelf might be a breath of fresh for about 10 minutes.
Then when you're saddled again with similar outcomes with the economy as the Tories, simply don't expect things to be much better.
Starmer is the worst type of leader - I sat through his boring speech and as usual full of empty space and contradictions. People are desperate, so they look for positives.
Even the much touted GB energy is full of holes and misdirection, and bullshit private investment mess.
Looking for crumbs is not a way out.
The upside is I expected nothing more really. And won't be that shocked when it all goes to hell.
Fortunately for those of us in Scotland we do have a choice of 2 social democratic party of the left to vote for if we want. In England you don't have that ( well none with a hope of gaining seats bar the greens in Brighton)
I see a man who goes out of his way to say as little as possible.
It’s pretty obvious why he says very little, to placate the rightwing press and avoid any ‘red Ed’ headlines. It’s worked too, the best they’ve come up with is the pathetic ‘captain hindsight’.
As to what he’ll do I’m going purely off the policies and the fact he has a bunch of senior northern MPs around him who will not let him sit on his hands. Blair wasted the opportunity he had in 97, and Labour have surely learned that lesson.
As to what he’ll do I’m going purely off the policies and the fact he has a bunch of senior northern MPs around him who will not let him sit on his hands
Those northern MPs are the ones who are making him support brexit which equates to refusing to do the one single most important thing to improve the UK. Starmer has put the need to appease racists in a few northern constituencies above the good of the country as a whole and above the wish to take scottish seats
I repeat. the SNP are hugely vulnerable but by moving from social democratic to tory lite he has refused that open door. Proper constitutional reform and rejoin would win them seats in Scotland and end the threat of independence. Instead because he neither understands or cares about Scotland he is not going to take that opportunity
Starmer has put the need to appease racists
TJ has danny/saucemerlin (I forget the other pseudonyms) hacked your account? Won’t be long til your talking about nazis.
I'm pretty sure TJ can see with his own eyes what is obvious to a lot of us - irrespective of the views of any other posters on here. 🤷♂️
TJ you really need to get over your obsession with Scotland, you mention Scotland in every single post - 6 times so far this morning.
I don't think Scotland should be ignored but it isn't the only thing that matters to the British people. 92% of the British population don't live in Scotland, there are other issues.
How would you feel if people who live in London, which has a population twice the size of Scotland's, banged on about London in every single post?
They do directly or indirectly. You do. The only point of view you ever express is a london centric one. You do think Scotland should be ignored as you are content with labour policies like brexit that are an anathema north of the border. Westminster politicians like Starmer ignore scotland
Now you are seeing a ;little of the constant frustration we have north of the border where the london centric view is the only one considered
The point is a simple one. In an attempt to win back some seats in England by appeasing racists Starmer is ignoring the opportunityt to win far more seats in Scotland
You do
You do think Scotland should be ignored
Oh okay, I mention London in every single post and I think Scotland should be ignored.
If you believe that then discussing the issue with you is about as useful as discussing whether the earth is flat.