No = you espouse a london centric view. constantly. You don't even realise it. its very common.
I believe labour could take 30 seats in Scotland given the right policies.
Scotland is my country and my home. Of course its what I am concerned about. Your post above shows just how londoncentric you are. Several other posters on here have said things like " no one cares about Scotland" You wonder why we see no alternative to independence
such views as " no one cares or discusses brexit any more" Very anglo centric / london centric view.
"no one discusses brexit any more is simply wrong. what yo actually mean is no one in your circle / in your area does
"I base my opinion of what sort of PM he will be on what sort of opposition leader he has been"
Very different role. Different skillset required - some party leaders have both but not many. Boris for instance would probably make a great leader of the opposition but was obviously a complete failiure as a PM, even in the eyes of his own party. I think Starmer with his actual change management experience, attention to detail, and genuine work ethic will be perfectly suited to at least starting to repair the damage. He won't be shooting his mouth off every five minutes and perhaps politics can drop off the front pages for a while which will be a blessed relief for everyone. As to him being a closet tory or whatever, please remember that we don't currently have a tory government - they were flushed out long ago. We have a rag bag of disaster capitalists, nationalist racist scumbags and actual real life crooks. I don't believe that even in a centarist labour party the same level of corruption is anywhere near as prevelent. Don't underestimate the difference that this will make.
I don’t believe that even in a centarist labour party the same level of corruption is anywhere near as prevelent
Perhaps not as corrupt but we still have the bought and paid for Streeting saying the only way to help the NHS is more privitisation because he is corrupt
I love how the solution to a broken system is more right-wing ideas because the left can’t seem to construct a strong enough reason and solution to push back. I mean if you can’t construct a robust left idea now then you probably never will.
Didn't say it was a solution, just one way to react to the cards we are dealt. You can bitch and whine about how bad it all is but you can only vote for the parties that are available. Yes I would love for a progressive Labour party to be on offer but would they win?
Corbyn's Labour was the nearest we have got for a long time and was still miles away from a decent Labour party but we know how that went down with the voters.
Corbyns issue was the labour right constantly briefing against him feeding the tory press and party with easy attack lines. He still had a higher % of the vote than many others and would have been PM without the labour / tory pact in Scotland ( of a weak minority gov but even so) What sabotaged Corbyn was the labour right. Nowt else. the labour right preferred to lose an election than to have a left of centre government. They won which is why we now have a central right labour party and only in Scotland do we have a major left of centre party to vote for ( Oh i'm not supposed to mention scotland even when the scots experience gives lie to the anglo centric view)
Er...
we still have the bought and paid for Streeting saying the only way to help the NHS is more privitisation because he is corrupt
...what?
I mean he's wrong about private sector capacity being other than of marginal use for clearing waiting lists, but corrupt? Really??
Otherwise please carry on. I sense exhaustion setting in amongst the thread regulars. One more SNP (the hole between the buttocks you're so frequently citing) digression and I think they'll crack... Or the reason people didn't vote for Corbyn's labour being the labour right 🙂 ... That should do it.
Streeting is in the pay of private healthcare companies and has been for years. So IMO corrupt as more privatisation of the health service is counterproductive but he is promoting it.
such views as ” no one cares or discusses brexit any more” Very anglo centric / london centric view.
London is as strongly Remain as Scotland.
so is every MP whose office is part funded by a union say, or private donor necessarily corrupt? They certainly have an interest to declare, but corrupt?
Didn’t say it was a solution, just one way to react to the cards we are dealt. You can bitch and whine about how bad it all is but you can only vote for the parties that are available. Yes I would love for a progressive Labour party to be on offer but would they win?
Now? I think they absolutely would.
Nowt else. the labour right preferred to lose an election than to have a left of centre government.
Absolutely.
Think how this was ridiculed at the time.
A reminder that Starmer campaigned to get that government elected.
so is every MP whose office is part funded by a union say, or private donor necessarily corrupt? They certainly have an interest to declare, but corrupt?
Basically yes. They cannot be trusted to work for the good of their country or constituents if they have another paymaster. Those private medical interests are not funding Streeting out of the goodness of their heart. They are funding him so he does what they want and its working. Streetings promotion of private healthcare is counterproductive in solving NHS issues so he is actively working against the interests of the country. He may know this and be consciously corrupt or he may not realise it being a useful idiot to them
The level of corruption in UK politics is huge - its just been legalised
To go back to an earlier point about refusing to join the EU or even get closer to them and recruitment of healthcare professionals
NHS trusts in England have increased recruitment from low-income “red list” countries to make up for the post-Brexit loss of EU staff, despite a code of practice to safeguard health services in those developing countries.
So to counter the loss of EU staff who are not going to come here without FOM we are stripping vital healthcare staff from countries that its aknowledged we should not because its unethical
So to counter the loss of EU staff who are not going to come here without FOM we are stripping vital healthcare staff from countries that its aknowledged we should not because its unethical
It was always going to be this way. Not least because those calling loudest for "training more of our own instead" go and vote for politicians unprepared to put the money and effort required into ramping up training. Hopefully that'll change soon... but it'll take a decade to play out if/once it does begin to happen. In the meantime...
In the meantime......
If Starmer would admit that
1) we need to import nurses as we don't have enough of our own and wont for many years
2) stripping healthcare staff from red list countries is unethical
3) the only solution short term is FOM with the EU
then we could be on the way to an ethical solution to this.
Think how this was ridiculed at the time.
I'm happy to ridicule it now too, just a bit pressed atm. Hth
In the meantime……If Starmer would admit that
He doesn't need to say anything. He knows that barring some sort of phoenix like Tory resurrection under Sunak he's only got to wait a year and a few months till he's in charge. It's unlikely to go to Jan '25 as General elections are normally held in May/June.
Better to keep quiet than risk chipping away at any lead he has.
Now? I think they absolutely would.
And I think they absolutely wouldn't. Guess we just have different views of the voting population...
Can you win an election without the support of the hate press?
The muffin man - in which case he is condemning the NHS to either further decline or unethical recruitment
And I think they absolutely wouldn’t. Guess we just have different views of the voting population…
Well I think the Tory vote has probably imploded currently - without anything Starmer has done particularly well.
And people are properly struggling - so you think the public would not vote for things to fix that?
No wonder we don't agree.
Can you win an election without the support of the hate press?
I know I am not supposed to mention Scotland but the SNP have in the face of not just a hostile hate press but hostile mainstream media
The muffin man – in which case he is condemning the NHS to either further decline or unethical recruitment
Realistically what can he actually change in the next year though?
To come out with pro EU statements now risks pushing red wall voters they lost back to the right.
It'd be like a football manager being 3-0 up in a FA Cup Final with 20 minutes to go and then subbing his entire first team for the under 12's and wondering why they lost 3-4.
He's got a good lead and needs to do the political equivalent of football shithousery - knock the political ball around by the opponents corner flag and take easy digs when they arise.
You might find this bit from John McDonnell on the fully-costed 17/19 Manifestos worth a look or not.
You know my thoughts on the crud that is fully funded - but I was just making the point a few discussions ago about this and I'm pretty sure you put up a point the 2019 wasn't costed.
https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1611073860740255744?s=20&t=0n_W3WcbWRaX751NtkZudg
I haven't got a dog in this one just to say the tem "fully-costed/funded" opens you up to all sorts of misrepresentation, and Reeves making out stuff previously wasn't fully costed is just blantant lies.
Realistically what can he actually change in the next year though?
Now? Very little because he has nailed his colours to the brexit disaster. Very little after the next year either because he has ruled out the single most effective policy he could have
If he had spent the last 6 years nailing the brexiteer and tory lies and being a leader we could have had a very different political consensus and he could have taken advantage of the shift towards the EU in public opinion and that shift would have been greater
Instead he just repeats the brexit lies has thus has lost all room to maneuver
And people are properly struggling – so you think the public would not vote for things to fix that?
No, I don't think they would - or not enough of them. Remember a lot of people are not struggling and a lot of those that are struggling don't believe a Labour party would fix anything for them.
By not being radical he is not putting those people off. A lot of voters simply didn't believe that Corbyn could do what he said and he was only talking about mild changes.
The brainwashing against Labour in this country is fairly strong.
Instead he just repeats the brexit lies has thus has lost all room to maneuver
Do you want him to win an election or win an ethical points scoring game?
It's easier to do a u-turn when your backside is in the main chair at No.10 for 5 years than on the opposition front bench.
I would like him to show leadership and not to lie. i believe doing those two things would be a vote winner. Remember what we are seeing is not a positive vote for labour but a anti tory vote. the polls still have Sunak as a better PM than Starmer
Has a starmer said anything about Europe rather than brexit? “Make brexit work” is just nonsense for idiots.
Has he said how he is going to increase trade and reduce queues? Has he actually had talks with anyone at the eu , does he too have an oven ready plan?
Or are we in for another session of letting the markets decide by having them **** off to the mainland?
I want my glimmer of hope , please supply one.
Teeny tiny things, like the urgent veterinarian and food standards agreements that UK farming and fishing, retail/hospitality in NI, and cost conscious shoppers need. Nothing big enough to put the “save Brexit” sword into the hand of Johnson if he’s back for the next general election.
It’s easier to do a u-turn when your backside is in the main chair at No.10 for 5 years than on the opposition front bench.
That is how to disenfranchise voters "they are all as bad as each other" etc
One of the reasons Mick Lynch and a couple of other union leaders have cut through the media narrative and connected with people is because they have talked earnestly with a bit of passion in representing normal people. After years of deception and spin the electorate are crying out for a bit of honesty, telling the truth will connect and re-engage with voters.
Populism works when the "normal" political class smugly believe that the electorate can't be trusted with the truth, everyone can see the lies but the uncertainty of what the reality is leads to the populists leveraging even greater lies and deceptions for their own gain.
That is how to disenfranchise voters “they are all as bad as each other” etc
Yup. It normalises the lies and allows the really dishonest to benefit.
Its a variant on the dont object to a government passing a law which is easy to abuse because you can trust them not to do so. Maybe but what about the next?
Remember what we are seeing is not a positive vote for labour but a anti tory vote.
Yes and Starmer has to tread carefully to ensure an anti Labour vote doesn't start to erode the anti tory vote (plus these are polls and nobody has actually voted yet of course)
If Starmer was pushing a socialists dream then the powerful people and organisations within the country who REALLY don't want that to happen would do all they can over the next 2 years to damage the chances of it and they would turn the anti tory vote around massively over that time. Yes it sucks and it is dreadful for democracy but we know that is what happens in this country.
If Starmer was pushing a socialists dream then the powerful people and organisations within the country who REALLY don’t want that to happen would do all they can over the next 2 years to damage the chances of it and they would turn the anti tory vote around massively over that time
Key - it doesn't have to be a socialist's dream.
Plenty of ways in the current environment to be doing solid things without the term socialist involved.
And anyway what is so wrong with the state owning and operating things - given the current system is driven by failure of the market, it might start to click that market is mythic overlord serving very few.
Redefine the narrative - too much in the Labour party is driven by Tory narrative, and frankly cowardice.
It’s easier to do a u-turn when your backside is in the main chair at No.10 for 5 years than on the opposition front bench.
Doubt it - once you've shown your colours you are going to want to stay in power - that would mean keeping the establishment happy according to the your own rules of gaining power.
And anyway what is so wrong with the state owning and operating things – given the current system is driven by failure of the market, it might start to click that market is mythic overlord serving very few.
Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I would love a socialist government remember. I am just not as convinced as you that one would be 'allowed' to get into power by those in control of the country.
But as Starmer is not doing anything to prove/disprove it we will never know...
But as Starmer is not doing anything to prove/disprove it we will never know…
It's just a frustrating waiting game isn't it?
It’s just a frustrating waiting game isn’t it?
Yup. Given that he abandoned his leadership manifesto I suppose it's equally possible that he'll pivot away from his current position once in power.
equally possible that he’ll pivot away from his current position
Well just as long as he's not lying.
We don't like Prime Ministers who lie.
The Tories had to get rid of a PM because he was a liar.
He already is lying. " no economic benefit to getting closer to the EU" to paraphrase. Lie.
What are you paraphrasing from? Labour have already said the current "oven baked" deal isn't working, and proposed the first step towards improving on it and facilitating cross border trade for some currently stalled sectors.
Leader of the Labour Party Keir Starmer has agreed that re-joining the European Union would not benefit the UK economically. In an answer to a question from BBC Radio 4, Starmer stated that joining the EU again at this stage would not boost the economy and that there was no benefit of entering the single market system.
The Labour leader said: "There's no case for going back to the EU or going back into the single market."
As reported in much of the press and an outright lie
Redefine the narrative – too much in the Labour party is driven by Tory narrative, and frankly cowardice.
That I can agree with.