Private sector growth follows government spending.
Yup. Current example being offshore wind. Example in Labour policy is the onshore renewable ramp up they have proposed. Labour are proposing spending more money. But every spending commitment will mention a change in taxation and spending elsewhere, because, for Labour, convincing the public that they will spend wisely and well, and also keep on eye on tax revenue is the stuff elections are won and lost on. Despite a decade of the Tories leaking money like a sieve that is still true for older voters. Tories have to reassure that they won't break the NHS (I personally think they'll lose that argument at the next election, when they have had four years to deal with the additional demands caused by Covid and can't just blame their failures on the pandemic), and Labour have to reassure that their plans are costed and deliverable. Not fair, not a level battle ground, but Starmer and Reeves would be naive in the extreme to ignore it.
Listening to Starmer's speech and the difference between Sunak couldn't be more stark. He actually sounds like a normal person rather than a patronising AI chatbot. Doesn't really matter what he says any more, all he has to do against Sunak is sound like a human. The tories will be panicking.
Yep, he's coming across well and also saying a lot of good things
Some extremely strong and likeable stuff on devolving political and economic power in that speech. I reckon he's the only politician I"ve heard who actually understands what brexit was really about. Finding it very hard not to like Starmer at the moment. All the stuff he says about westminster centralised politics not working will be a massive vote winner.
Listening to Starmer’s speech and the difference between Sunak couldn’t be more stark
Looking at the shambles the country is in at the moment, only one of the two looks like they’re even acknowledging the issues, never mind engaging with and addressing them. The other is just spouting patronising platitudes.
Liking what I’m hearing about devolving power to the regions. That’s going to be music to the ears of everyone outside Westminster
This will not be making for comfortable viewing in number ten, that’s for sure
Liking what I’m hearing about devolving power to the regions.
It makes the elections of Mayors in England between now and the next general election more important as well.
Better Q&A for him than past attempts at this. Answers seem less evasive, more direct.
Sunak truly is rubbish at conviction. He's not going to last.
But the bar is so low these days.
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy/status/1610950284771033090?s=20&t=OqbUJEYpOhI8gjz-3_d6QA
I couldn't give a stuff about speeches (have you seen where that gets us?)
But the mechanics are critical.
Some extremely strong and likeable stuff on devolving political and economic power in that speech. I reckon he’s the only politician I”ve heard who actually understands what brexit was really about. Finding it very hard not to like Starmer at the moment. All the stuff he says about westminster centralised politics not working will be a massive vote winner.
Trouble is he says some good stuff sometimes, and I think he is making progress, then he contradicts the good things with other statements and actions.
It is hard to see if he is a progressive, trying to keep the press and the oligarchs onside, or if he is just another free market capitalist selling false hope to progressives. He isn't consistent in his message and actions and that is worrying.
IMO he is a technocrat. ( as Wilson was again IMO)
then he contradicts the good things with other statements and actions.
Where he falls down is that he's too keen to placate the right wing press by fighting his party. I get why he thinks he needs to do that but it's really not necessary. The left of the party would get behind him if he gave them the chance, but it would appear he doesn't want that. I can ignore that though if he implements all the stuff he says he is going to. There's not a lot of what he is saying on the policy front that the left would disagree with.
From Starmer's speech. Pretty much what I've been saying on here about brexit for the past two years. What I want to know now is what powers they'll be devlolving and whether they are going to provide the money to give them teeth. I'm still very sceptical on the latter part, but I have an inkling his 'no big chequebook' stuff is simply PR to placate the idiots who don't understand how government finances work. His reluctance to commit to tory spending plans is the give away.
"I go back to Brexit. Yes, a whole host of issues were on that ballot paper. But as I went around the country, campaigning for Remain, I couldn’t disagree with the basic case so many Leave voters made to me.
People who wanted public services they could rely on. High streets they could be proud of. Opportunities for the next generation. And all of this in their town or city.
It was the same in the Scottish referendum in 2014 – many of those who voted ‘yes’ did so for similar reasons. And it’s not an unreasonable demand.
It’s not unreasonable for us to recognise the desire for communities to stand on their own feet. It’s what Take Back Control meant. The control people want is control over their lives and their community."
It was the same in the Scottish referendum in 2014 – many of those who voted ‘yes’ did so for similar reasons. And it’s not an unreasonable demand.
Wrong. 100% wrong. shows how little he understands scotland
Wrong. 100% wrong.
So people voting for independence didn't want more devolved power and to stand on their own feet? 🤔
And he didn't explain to those leavers that the EU didn't control any of the stuff they wanted and that they could have it more easily in the EU than out because the country would be weathier with higher tax revenues to spend - if only they would stop voting Tory.
And he didn’t explain to those leavers that the EU didn’t control any of the stuff they wanted and that they could have it more easily in the EU than out
I'm pretty sure he did. He was at the forefront of the remain campaign. Whether he meant it or not is another issue but he definitely campaigned for remain, along with the party leadership and rest of the shadow cabinet.
Have you read your own quote to the the end, Dazh? He's saying the take back control point was valid when any one who thought it through knew Britain was giving up any control it had.
The man is a "yes man", he varies what he says so he can say yes to pretty much anyone which means he's seen as back pedalling on pretty much every major issue. Changing his tune constantly with Brexit being his biggest turnaround - from remainer to Brexit apologist, just like yourself, Dazh.
He has no convictions he just blows around with the wind.
from remainer to Brexit apologist, just like yourself, Dazh.
No, just a realist. I would (probably) vote to rejoin tomorrow given the chance, but it's not going to happen. As I've said before, it's a bit like criticising labour for not having a living on Mars policy. Time to move on, the Europe issue is dead and buried.
Time to move on, the Europe issue is dead and buried.
The EU membership issue is dead and buried. At least for our lifetimes. Arguing about it at the next general election would be pointless and self defeating for Labour. But all those other countries are still there and need to be worked with. The Europe issue wasn't done away with by leaving the EU, it's just been transformed into a whole load of different problems that will need addressing not ignored.
Its not a case of rejoining. That just ain't going to happen. Its about rebuilding a workable trading relationship with our neighbours that isn't based on antagonism and confrontation.
Its about rebuilding a workable trading relationship with our neighbours
Yup, and that will happen as a normal function of government. As I've said before though, international trade policy is not the sort of thing that interests people or gets them excited or angry. No political party will ever win an election by promising more trade with foreigners. It needs to happen, but it doesn't win many votes.
The EU membership issue is dead and buried
I agree but what about the sensible option of joining the single market? Pre vote, many of the leave funders were saying that we wouldn't leave the SM.
Brexit would still be dun , the above promises honoured and the sensible people can try and mop up the mess.
I agree but what about the sensible option of joining the single market?
Because that would require freedom of movement. The tories and rightwing press were very successful in blaming immigrants for the failing of our public services. Correcting that lie is not going to be possible until the voters realise that it wasn't immigrants who were to blame. That's going to take a while. When labour gets in and (hopefully) public services are repaired to where they were pre-2010 then we'll be in a position to talk about the single market again. It'll be at least another 10 years basically.
The EU membership issue is dead and buried
Sorry to break it to you but its not and never will be
the single most destructive act of any government in peacetime. Its ill effects will be felt until we rejoin.
there are a great many folk who are not going to shut up about it. the majority want back in
When labour gets in and (hopefully) public services are repaired to where they were pre-2010
Not going to happen outside the EU
Not going to happen outside the EU
Maybe, but until they try and fail nothing will change on the EU issue. Even then it won't happen, because the debate will have shifted. It will no longer be 'should we rejoin on the terms we had pre-2016', it will be 'should we rejoin and be part of Schengen and the Euro' as that will be what the EU demands. Even if in 10-20 years people are ready to rejoin, there is zero chance this country will ever decide to give up the pound, and quite rightly too for obvious reasons.
Because that would require freedom of movement
Starmer could make a big song and dance about border force strike teams deporting lazy euro scumbags if they didn't get a job in 3 months.
Again you forget Scotland and NI
At some point in the near future both entities will be out of the UK and in the EU - then will flourish. At that point rUK will have to wake up to the reality
But the longer Starmer and labour go on lying about Brexit and pretending they can make it work they harder this will be for rUK to recover and to realise that the EU is the only game in town
Maybe so TJ, but that still takes much the same timeframe as Dazh is saying. 10 years minimum.
Labour are preparing for a dirty fight in a general election relatively soon... there is no way they are putting the "save Brexit" sword in the hands of the Conservatives come that fight.
NI will be a full member as part of a united ireland in under 10 years. I fervently hope Scotland is not far behind
At some point in the near future both entities will be out of the UK and in the EU
Explain to me how Scotland leaves the UK in the near future when neither labour or the tories will allow a new referendum? The SNP have no more leverage to gain than they posess now, so what else are they going to do? Whether you like it or not, Scotland is in this for the long haul along with the rUK. It's possible NI might join a united Ireland as Sinn Fein could win power there on both sides of the border, but even that's unlikely in less than 10 years.
ON NI written into the good friday agreement is that a border poll will be held if there seems to be a majority in the north in favour. that point is now.
On Scotland - do you really think that is going to hold? Are you really stating we should be held captive in a union we no longer want to be a part of? what happens if the pro independence parties get over 50% of the vote in the next GE? Do you think that will hold under a campaign of civil disobedience ( including financial because Scotland supports england financially - the reason they don't want scots independence?) and against International law?
Labour are preparing for a dirty fight in a general election relatively soon… there is no way they are putting the “save Brexit” sword in the hands of the Conservatives come that fight.
The “save Brexit” sword is already in the hands of the Reform?Brexit/Whatever they're called this week Party. Richard Tice (presently leader until Nige hears about an election and returns) was on Newsnight the other night saying that they intend to field candidates in every constituency at the next general election.
They are doing this as they believe that the Tory's have 'Betrayed Brexit' (their terminology).
So now would seem like the ideal time for labour to say nothing about the issue for fear that it would unite these presently warring right wing parties. These lot pulling out their candidates and not fighting the Tories made a massive difference last time around, so if they're now intent on splitting the right wing Brexity gammon vote, let them get on with it. Labour will be the ultimate beneficiary of that
ON NI written into the good friday agreement is that a border poll will be held if there seems to be a majority in the north in favour.
The latest research indicates a very significant majority to remain in the UK.
Explain to me how Scotland leaves the UK in the near future when neither labour or the tories will allow a new referendum?
Armed insurrection? That's the usual endpoint when democratic processes are stifled over a protacted period.
Do you think that will hold under a campaign of civil disobedience
What campaign of civil disobedience? I've not read or heard anything from the SNP that suggests they'll be organising protests or direct action. I think you're just making stuff up now. Perhaps you think Sturgeon is going to do a Catalonia? I doubt it, not sure she has the stomach for living in exile or going to prison.
Armed insurrection?
Getting silly now. Just who among the Scottish regiments who have been loyal to the British monarchy for centuries do you think are going to take up arms against their countrymen?
Yeah tj just keep going for vote after vote until you get the result you want
Once in a lifetime Jimmy krankie said on the vote was it a hamsters lifetime, can't throw the toys out and demand another vote it just makes you look silly
Hmmm - I went and had a look and it does seem its shifted away from reunification on a recent poll. Hmmm
Once in a lifetime Jimmy krankie said on the vote was it a hamsters lifetime,
Nice patronising and incorrect. It was a throwaway remark from Salmond and really you don't think circumstances have changed? It was anever a part of anything official and the provisions in the good friday agreement suggest every 7 years for a political generation
anyway - thread drift sorry
Final bit about Starmer and how he is seen in Scotland then Iwill leave this to your little englander brexiteer fantasies. SNP spokesbod
Today’s intervention from Keir Starmer promised a decade of renewal but the reality is another decade of crippling austerity for Scotland from Westminster.
The leader of the official opposition doesn’t only embrace the wrecking ball that is Brexit - he’s now stealing their campaign slogans. Meanwhile, Brexit is hammering Scotland’s economy in the midst of the deepest cost of living crisis in decades.
Labour are now carbon-copy Tories on Brexit, the co-conspirators to hush up the true cost of Brexit. Today’s speech only confirms that the next general election is a choice between two Tory prime ministers.
Two cheeks of the same arse. The final nail in Scottish labours coffin.
Yeah tj just keep going for vote after vote until you get the result you want
Once in a lifetime Jimmy krankie said on the vote was it a hamsters lifetime, can’t throw the toys out and demand another vote it just makes you look silly
It was Alex Salmond who made the reference to a 'once in a lifetime opportunity' as an off the cuff remark during a press conference, and not something that was ever drafted as an SNP policy - but don't let facts get in the way of spouting your wee 'yoon' pish.
As an alternative, you could turn your attention to the statement, repeatedly made, that the only way to secure Scotland's place within the EU was to vote 'no' to independence. Strangely enough, that rarely comes up as a binding commitment, despite it being part of the official Better Together campaign's pitch to the electorate.
Getting silly now. Just who among the Scottish regiments who have been loyal to the British monarchy for centuries do you think are going to take up arms against their countrymen?
You asked what alternatives there were if Westminster governments keep ignoring the will of the electorate on a repeating basis. Nobody sane wants to head down that path, but if people can’t achieve their desired outcomes by democratic means, even recent history shows us how rapidly a situation can become toxic.
little englander brexiteer fantasies
If that were true I'd want Scotland to leave. I very much don't want them to.
"if you love them let them be free"
My preference is not for independence either. But I want a progressive government and I want to be in the EU. Independence is my only way of getting those things as neither are on offer from Westminster as Starmers speech shows
And you are a brexiteer fantasist because you don't understand there is no real route to repairing the UK outside the EU and a little englander as you neither care about nor understand scotland and its politics but just want us to know our place
The absolute implication of this speech is that Starmer completely believes that government budgets must be run like those of a household.
No, the implication is that Starmer wants the electorate to think that he wants to run the government budget like a household.
The implication is that Starmer will run a tory lite government of privitisation and austerity with a caring face