Call me a hopeless idealist but he could give some idea of how he’d like to see things change.
Come January and a likely no deal, we’re into a whole world of Rumsfeld’s known knowns, known unknowns and unknown unknowns.
You’d have to be a complete bloody idiot to nail your colours to the mast just before a shitshow of such epic proportions which Boris and chums will own 100%
Aa the time for that is in a couple of years
You’d have to be a complete bloody idiot to nail your colours to the mast just before a shitshow of such epic proportions which Boris and chums will own 100%
I expect a key message will be something along the lines of:
"Although the result of the referendum must be respected, there are a multitude of ways that can be done. And this damaging chaos is not one of them. You sir, is this the Brexit you voted for? How about you sir? Did you want this".
Leave it there until pressed. Don't commit. Let Johnson's rabble own it 100%. Covid-blaming will only work for so long.
Aa the time for that is in a couple of years
So meanwhile only the people on this thread and about 30 people 3 dogs and a cat in the rest of the country get to **** themselves into a fever about how clever he is at PMQ's and no one else gives a shit or even knows anything about him? Great!
Look at Sturgeon. She appears to be truthfull and competent and that’s the foundation for her and the SNPs popularity. It’s a slow burner but it has a huge effect. Even staunch unionists have respect for her.
Very good point, Sturgeon is hardly full of character or funny, or even particularly likeable but she has integrity and honesty and gives the professional appearance required.
Of course it helps that she is in Scotland where she has a population who don't have a history of voting tory without any care of who is their MP or the leader at the time.
Well judging by current polls ( for what there worth) a few more people than 30 recognise what Starmer is achieving.
Not sure what you want from an opposition leader with an 80 seat deficit and a previous opposition team that couldn't find their arse because they left it back in 1974?
Starmer understands what the press can do to an opposition party and he must avoid that negativity at all costs.
The UK working class/poor are not spurred on by the "greater good" they are selfish, greedy, xenophobic, small minded and sadly poorly educated. They voted for Boris (and Thatcher) on the promise that they would get something for nothing, the fear of losing what they have ( which is actually **** all) has been ingrained in multiple generations via the Vote leave, Dominic Cummins, ERG messaging, fear of foreigners Daily Mail bollocks
If Starmer lays out any form of political, economic, social plans in the next six months he would be a fool, just like Corbyn was a fool for allowing an early election based on the idea he had some good policy?
Its not rocket science to wait until the covid brexit misery manifests itself and as soon as thats in plain site then and only then offer a solution.
If you want a red flag waving left leaning younder version of Corbyn then Starmer is not that, if you want a Tony Blair (with a conscious) Starmer may be that. Sometimes we have to support the alternative for no better reason than its only marginally more palatable.
about how clever he is at PMQ’s and no one else gives a shit or even knows anything about him? Great!
Given that the Tory cabinet seem to be stuffed with woefully incompetent Brexiteer arseholes, who couldn't be trusted to run a bath. Now is not the time to give them, and their enablers something else to talk about. The only thing the R-W press have to talk about right now is how badly this govt are ****ing it up...Let them get on with it. What do you want? A headline with "Hancock's latest U turn" or "Cummings looks like a shabby day release patient" or..."We reveal how much Starmer's plans will cost you!"
Because as soon as he sets out some ideas, that's what's going to happen...
He has to walk a fine line - he needs to keep giving the government enough rope to hang themselves, because with an 80 seat majority there's nothing realistically he can do.
But he needs to be asking pointed questions to make it obvious to anyone with half an eye on the news whose fault this is. And I'd like to see some effort to start changing the narrative more towards "greater good" to try and get people to understand that that approach is the only way to build a society and country with a viable long term future.
Given the majority right wing press, not sure how you get out the message "you lot were conned into voting for this mess, and unless you start thinking about your kids and grandkids long term future, we are ****ed" as a catchy vote winning strapline.
Basically Labour, and the country, need the Tories to implode in the usual fashion with epic amounts of backstabbing and blame. If they provide them with something to unite against - some kind of tax or welfare or immigration policy - then the 'it would be worse under Corbyn Starmer' can be employed.
The Tories have to own this shitstorm 100% - unfortunately for the rest of us, those who gave them such a secure majority have to suffer to drive home this point.
Is there any episode in history of a politician who kept their policy cards close to their chest, got sponsored by big business, got elected and then turned out to have some socialist principles after all? I've heard this story countless times but there doesn't appear to be a single example of it.
Starmer absolutely has to connect with people on a personal level. Right now he isn't achieving that, other than with Lib Dem / Labour centre voters. That's not a disaster at the moment, the next election is a life time away in politics.
If Starmer lays out any form of political, economic, social plans in the next six months he would be a fool
Totally. Big committal now gives the Tories plenty of time to neutralise it by claiming to do similar, even if in reality they have no real intention of doing so.
He has the 'competence' voters already, now he needs to work on showing empathy and understanding for the voters that Labour have lost of the last 15 years. This doesn't need solid policy plans, he needs to show a vast chunk of the population that he 'gets' them. No easy task.
There's more than 4 years to the next election, unless the Gov implodes sufficiently spectacularly to call another one under the Act - and at this stage why would they, as I say it would have to be a spectacular collapse. Or lose a vote of no confidence - same again.
There's also a shed load to happen between now and then, no-one can predict the economic situation post Covid-Brexit.
There is no sense and no need for Starmer to lay out any policies right now, particularly as noted above if it risks diverting attention away from the general clown show.
'No Prime Minister - you won a majority in December 2019 on the promises you made to the electorate then, and further back in 2016. It's time for you as the Government to deliver on them, and me as opposition to hold you to account where you don't. My policies are not relevant for another 2 years at least; it's all about you right now.
I'd be tempted to come out and say it and stick to it, when the accusation of no policies is the response.
Call me a hopeless idealist but he could give some idea of how he’d like to see things change.
i think we did the "hopeless idealist" thing last time around and it didn't turn out well 🙁
Hiding in the shadows isn't a great look. Wakey,wakey people the shit has already hit the fan.
Starmer needs to suck up bad press and get his vision out there, this is not a time to be scared of the old media powers. Make some media waves and make some serious noise.
Sunak has become relevant off the back of a couple of TV statements, before you know it he will become the face of the new PM.
I think the only way Scottish Labour can become anything other than their current irrelevance is by coming out either as a pro-independence party or at the very least for some kind of half-way Federal house.
The Unionists currently vote Tory, definitely a feeling that it's their only option at the moment, whether Scottish Labour break away completely from UKL is another question, and that has to concern Starmer.
To what end - unenactable, but can be countered or stolen.
No, it's their shit sandwich, now make them eat it.
Great plan Jon, keep your vision a secret, hide in the shadows while the world needs leaders and pinch a win from under their noses👍
No-one said hide. Be in full view, statesmanlike, reliable, answer your interviews properly, and show Johnson up at every turn.
You don't need to go electioneering yet, you can make yourself electable still.
Scotland will not return to a Labour stronghold, there is not a sufficient ideological difference between them and the SNP to gain traction - the only difference is the Independence question.
Starmer has a difficult decision to make probably after the next election if its a hung parliament he may have to cut a deal with the SNP? After all if the SNP gain more seats/votes from a Democratic point of view its difficult to deny them a further Independence vote.
I think Scotland will leave the Union next time they can vote, i have friends over the border who voted no last time but now would vote yes. If Brexit is bad the SNP will win another vote.
Anecdotally talking to a Northern Irish friend who has always been pro union thinks NI will join Ireland within in 10 years - he has also had enough of Boris.
The problem with all the above and my previous post is that the removal of Scotland and NI would guarantee a permanent Tory gov with little opposition.
Do you think starmer is in full view and statesmanlike though?
If you take those off your list which I would then there isn't a lot left considering what's going on outside the window
i actually think Starmers problem is not Starmer, i currently worry that the team behind him is not strong enough and its that and the lack of visibility of that team thats my major concern.
He needs to find strong vocal, passionate people- he needs to remain the calm collected capable leader.
Do you think starmer is in full view and statesmanlike though?
I do, as much as a leader of the opposition ever is.
While I can see the attraction of leaving the UK to Scottish voters, it would not be a done deal that doing so would get them back in to Europe? May still be better than being attached to a Tory run England though.
But I agree, sadly. Ireland will be reunited in some way, and Scotland will vote to leave too. The Tories really have ****ed up big time
I have noticed that the BBC does not show the bits of PMQs in which Boris was shocking on the following regular news slots? They tend to show the bits when was average? So a lot of people are not seeing Starmers capabilities.
I think the BBC are tiptoeing around the Government at the moment for obvious reasons
the EU would give Scotland membership... just to get a foot hold on the UK mainland again.
To what end – unenactable, but can be countered or stolen.
No, it’s their shit sandwich, now make them eat it.
Yes. Offer up the obvious way out at each point.
You can see that Boris is flailing for attack lines on Starmer - because he's offered very little up to attack. He's basically resorted to calling him a remainer, and trying to recycle an old Corbyn attack line about supporting the IRA.
Starmer's approach is bob-on, IMO. Let the Tories circle the drain of their own making, without offering them a lifeline they can latch onto and crawl up.
There is no election in prospect. Brexit is not going to be stopped. The pandemic will rage through us all winter. Unfortunately, we have to hit bottom with this government as resoundingly as possible before some of the people who facilitated it realise where their best interests actually lie.
Scotland going, a matter of time before Wales and N.I follow. Starmer/Labour need to come up with a bold vision of a federal U.K if the U.K is to survive.
Including P.R and scrapping the Lords
You can see that Boris is flailing for attack lines on Starmer – because he’s offered very little up to attack. He’s basically resorted to calling him a remainer, and trying to recycle an old Corbyn attack line about supporting the IRA.
Starmer’s approach is bob-on, IMO. Let the Tories circle the drain of their own making, without offering them a lifeline they can latch onto and crawl up.
There is no election in prospect. Brexit is not going to be stopped. The pandemic will rage through us all winter. Unfortunately, we have to hit bottom with this government as resoundingly as possible before some of the people who facilitated it realise where their best interests actually lie.
This nails it. If the best thing Johnson can try to smear the former DPP with is "your old boss expressed some pro IRA sentiments" then he has nothing else to go on. Then Starmer just beats him away with his actual track record of prosecuting terrorists and mentions that at the same time Johnson was getting sacked for lying or doing guest appearances on HIGNFY.
Every time there is a mini disaster as part of this utter car crash he should just be very clearly pointing out that it is the result of a conscious choice by Johnson to be an arse, and that other ways were available if Johnson had chosen not to be an arse.
Brexit is such a dismal, doomed, failure that it will, hopefully, destroy this government of liars and incompetents.
What comes after could be worse, though, and that is my real worry. Beware the 'Strong Leader' temptation amongst the hard of thinking.
Starmer/Labour need to come up with a bold vision of a federal U.K if the U.K is to survive.
That might appeal to Wales but it's not going to work with Scotland and NI, I feel. They'll want back into the EU probably.
the EU would give Scotland membership… just to get a foot hold on the UK mainland again.
The EU don't want to face this issue as it causes a number of other difficulties. Spain is the big one with Catalan independence. There are numerous other historical fault lines that lie dormant but once you get momentum on these issues the political opportunists start and it can snowball out of hand.
Spain is an EU member.. the UK isn't... so not the same situation at all. People will catch up with understanding what Brexit means soon.. accession countries, and potential accession countries, are not ruled out by the EU because they used to be part of a bigger (non EU) country or federation of countries... not at all. The EU won't help NI or Scotland leave the UK, they won't even encourage it... but once it is done, there is no real reason for them to be refused membership. NI would be eased back in via a fast track not available to any other country. Scotland would probably go for something akin to the compromise the Scottish government proposed after the referendum to make things quicker... it would be messy enough to sort that, never mind full membership... which would take a decade... but the problems there are practical, rather the EU worrying that Scotland used to be part of the UK.
No idea what this has to do with Starmer but I wouldn't be so sure of Sturgeon rushing to join the EU as an independent nation. She'll be all powerful if Scotland leaves the UK, I doubt she'll want to immediately hand all that over to the EU bureaucrats.
I said that they would be likely to seek a compromise of the kind they outlined after the referendum, rather than full membership. But not for the backwards thinking nonsense you mention.
Unfortunately, we have to hit bottom with this government as resoundingly as possible before some of the people who facilitated it realise where their best interests actually lie.
In an ideal world people would recognise their mistakes and correct them, but never underestimate the power of denial with these people, all it may take is another three word catch phrase.
Its going to be a long four years and to defeat the tories with all their allies will take careful preparation.
She’ll be all powerful if Scotland leaves the UK, I doubt she’ll want to immediately hand all that over to the EU bureaucrats.
Sounds a bit brexity.
Sounds a bit brexity.
You deny there are bureaucrats in the EU? Technocrats might have been a better word. It's not brexity to point out that the EU is a technocratic organisation making decisions from a distance, it's just plain fact.
No idea what this has to do with Starmer but I wouldn’t be so sure of Sturgeon rushing to join the EU as an independent nation. She’ll be all powerful if Scotland leaves the UK, I doubt she’ll want to immediately hand all that over to the EU bureaucrats.
Because our home grown unelected bureaucrats are so much better! 🤦♂️
Because our home grown unelected bureaucrats are so much better!
No they're not. Whether we like it or not though, the vast majority in this country would rather be ruled by our 'own' bureaucrats than foreign ones. You know, people like Starmer, a competent, safe pair of hands from a leafy suburb in the south east.
As for Sturgeon, if you think she'll easily give up her power straight after getting it you're in denial of the primary motivation of almost every politician that has ever existed.
Labour & Starmer's biggest issues at the moment is infighting - they need to pull together, the tories sitting pretty with an 80 seat majority watching the weak opposition fighting among themselves must feel completely untouchable just now.
the vast majority in this country would rather be ruled by our ‘own’ bureaucrats than foreign ones. You know, people like Starmer,
I think we've established that some people don't understand what a bureaucrat is, or what they do.
None of which is actually relevant to a thread on Starmer.
None of which is actually relevant to a thread on Starmer.
Well I did say that earlier 🙂
Bringing it back to him though, I don't know if he's planning on saying much about Boris's latest ruse, but I hope he stays well away. Brexit is poison for labour, and they need to say as little about it as possible.
IScotland would be straight back in the EU and that will be the outcome
May next year they will have a thumping majority and independence will follow quickly
You deny there are bureaucrats in the EU? Technocrats might have been a better word. It’s not brexity to point out that the EU is a technocratic organisation making decisions from a distance, it’s just plain fact.
You made a lot out of one sentence. Is this flight of fancy similar to the one where you thought a backbench MP of 32 years would make a great leader of the opposition and possible PM?
possible PM
I would still maintain that Corbyn would have been a good PM. Imagine the possibilities of someone in the top job who posessed real compassion and didn't have a single narcissistic impulse? Evidently he wasn't a good oppostion leader though as he lost the election. Admittedly I have a different idea of what constitutes a good leader than most people, which is mostly someone who doesn't want to be one.
I would still maintain that Corbyn would have been a good PM. Imagine the possibilities of someone in the top job who posessed real compassion and didn’t have a single narcissistic impulse?
He would've made a terrible PM, he couldn't keep his chosen party together, the idea that he could lead a country is laughable, and as for the idea that he's not a narcissist, that's a joke surely? He's the worst sort of narcissist, he thinks he's right; about everything, so in his mind there's no need for compromise. He would be in the same position that Johnson is in now, surrounded by a smaller and smaller cabal of True Believers, put in position because of their support rather than their competence.
Evidently he wasn’t a good oppostion [sic] leader though as he lost the election.
Two...He lost two elections. Against two of the most useless governments this countries probably likely to see for some time
Admittedly I have a different idea of what constitutes a good leader than most people, which is mostly someone who doesn’t want to be one.
Benevolent dictatorship?
