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15000? 😁
Not sure Mr Starmers position on Brexit is the best strategy… he has lost my support (not that it will make any difference)
We need to be a Norway. The rest of the world “trade” is bollocks.
Mine too. All he's doing is tinkering (trying to)...there's no guarantee the EU will agree to any of his proposals.
Well, I fully expect to get another Conservative government returned at the next election… but I sure as dammit will use my tiny individual vote to try and stop that happening. Don’t think the Conservative’s “battle with Europe” is over yet. They’ll keep it alive no matter what the damage to our lives. If your want closer ties to, or even just cordial relations with, the rest of Europe, you need to try and get this government out.
with the best will in the world that's not going to happen if you vote labour or conservative.
1.Denial, to 2.****! what have we done?, to 3. We have to make the best of it, to 4. let’s have something like Norway, to 5.rejoining.
If this is based on the 5 stages of grief, does that mean Norway is depression?
Norway are gas rich, and already a NATO member.
Maybe if Russia calmed down with the genocide, people might cut them a bit of slack.
How close will starmer try and work with the eu?
Will he maintain this government’s hatred towards them?
How much of a **** will he be in an effort not to upset this country’s ****wits?
Can I join the starmer is a **** club?
the starmer is a **** club
It's a bit like McDonalds, the Labour party are not always doing business, but they are always open 🙂
If boris wanted to make Labour unelectable for the next twenty years.. He needn't have tried.
Starmer just did his job for him in a single day.
We all want Labour to come up with some policies "Anything Keir FFS!"
And then out of nowhere he comes up with this, he really would have been better saying nought.
Is he trying to be shit?
To the Blairites. This is the outcome of concentrating on focus groups and "listening to the people " you end up with a party that follows not leads and the follow those who shout loudest. The agenda ends up set by tories and their lapdogs in the press.
The situation labour is in now is a direct result of the way Blair changed the party.
Political cowardice and timidity
So you don’t want the Labour Party to listen? The 2019 manifesto won’t be repeated at the next election, otherwise the result would end up being much the same. That includes policy on Europe. Not that it was exactly clear what a Labour government would have been doing as regards our relationship to Europe if they’d won with that manifesto anyway.
Labour are a right wing, pro brexit party. That much is clear.
They may as well hire nigel farage and re brand themselves as UKIP at this point.
Labour are a right wing, pro brexit party. That much is clear.
They may as well hire nigel farage and re brand themselves as UKIP at this point.
And the overblown hyperbole award goes to...
Get used to the idea that, at least in the short term, we're not re-joining the EU. That path is closed to us for at least the next 10-15 years. Even the Lib-dems have said that while it's their long term goal, they don't support an immediate campaign to rejoin, and want to instead to do pretty much what Starmer said yesterday. Closet possible alignment.
Boris johnson: 'get brexit done'
Kier starmer: 'make brexit work'
Are they the same person?
kelvin
So you don’t want the Labour Party to listen?
Listen yes, but not to the reflected echo of the UKIP propaganda disseminated by the right wing media.
It's time to drive things with a more compelling vision of the future.
I quite like Starmer, especially that he's a proper legal heavyweight but I don't see him doing much leading and that's a shame.
So you don’t want the Labour Party to listen?
To the hard right press propaganda?
Not really no.
I want them to provide an actual alternate vision not just a watered down version designed not to upset the hard right loons.
The 2019 manifesto won’t be repeated at the next election, otherwise the result would end up being much the same
Wait, what?
I thought it was all Corbyns fault.
That path is closed to us for at least the next 10-15 years.
The longer you put off starting that journey the further away the destination is.
It's like someone in the Labour Party looked at the referendum vote and thought "52% is bigger than 48%, let's appeal to them" without realising that the majority of the 52% won't vote Labour in a million years.
majority of the 52% won’t vote Labour in a million years.
lots and lots of that 52% were Labour voters.
If boris wanted to make Labour unelectable for the next twenty years.. He needn’t have tried.
Starmer just did his job for him in a single day.
The idea that Starmer has made Labour unelectable for the next 20 years because he has accepted that the UK has left the EU, and it is not feasible to reverse the decision in the foreseeable future, is the sort of delusional Remainer nonsense that resulted in this :
Pitching herself as a candidate for Prime Minister at the head of an unlikely Lib Dem majority government, Ms Swinson said she would “revoke Article 50 on day one” and cancel Brexit.
The triumph of delusion over reality....... The delusion - Prime Minister Jo Swinson heads a LibDem majority government. The reality - Jo Swinson loses her parliamentary seat and the LibDems reduce their MPs by 1.
I realise that many Remainers feel very disappointed indeed but to believe that accepting brexit is currently a guaranteed vote loser, especially after seeing the 2019 general election results, is just bizarre.
I agree that Starmer gives very few reasons for voting Labour beyond the fact that he isn't Johnson, but it isn't his attitude to brexit that is the problem.
but it isn’t his attitude to brexit that is the problem.
Absolutely. Starmer ( to misquote JZ) has 99 problems, but Brexit ain't one. This is a the political reality.
Boris johnson: ‘get brexit done’
Kier starmer: ‘make brexit work’
Are they the same person?
Do you think "let's screw Britian until we rejoin the EU" would make a better slogan and have voters enthusiastically backing Labour?
Labour are a right wing, pro brexit party. That much is clear.
Thank you matty for confirming what I've long suspected about the ultra-remain delusional reality denialists. I have some friends like yourself who are still obsessed about something that happened 6 years ago. All I can say in the friendliest way possible is please move on. It's not going to do you any good. You can either move forward or remain (see what I did there) stuck in the past. I know what I would rather do.
As for the politics of it. Well it's really quite simple. If you frequent these threads you'll have seen me saying that we get the government we deserve. You are a classic example of that, so please think carefully. Your vote is only one in thousands so not very important at the end of the day, but it's about helping yourself and your family. If you can live with the fact that you haven't done your bit to get rid of the tories then carry on, otherwise the choice is obvious.
Well, let me put it this way... I was on the fence regarding tactical voting. But now there is no way on God's green earth I will ever vote Labour.
This isn't a Starmer issue, this is the problem that Brexit was by design, a way of making it almost impossible to join again without costing the UK even more money.
The UK spent 40 years in the EU building their place in the core of it, with France and Germany, we had so many benefits due to our place in world standings over the last 40 years and the funding we provided, but now those benefits have been dispersed to other EU nations, our veto in many areas is lost, our rebate, etc, etc.
To rejoin the EU it would have to be shown to benefit the UK, and that would be via negotiations and evidence of the benefit, plus the added issue of having the likes of France and Spain wanting to veto us rejoining!
I was on the fence regarding tactical voting. But now there is no way on God’s green earth I will ever vote Labour.
So politics has become a one issue thing for you - just like ukipers.
All other LibDem policies are unimportant and irrelevant, there is only one policy that matters.
But now there is no way on God’s green earth I will ever vote Labour.
And like I said, you'll get what you deserve. Don't ever come on here to moan about whatever the tories have done if you're not prepared to take the easiest and most consequential action you can to get rid of them. I don't like labour either, I despise the leader and the idiots he has around him, and have very little respect for much of the shadow cabinet. But I know they are nowhere near as bad as the tories. TBH who is in govt doesn't much affect me, but there are millions who are suffering at the hands of the tories, and their needs are much more important than your obsession with a debate that was decided 6 years ago, and my dislike of labour's right wing policies. If you're not willing to help yourself, then vote in the interest of the millions who desperately need help now. Your position is indefensible quite frankly.
I thought it was all Corbyns fault.
Personally, I'm happy to give Corbyn the credit for the positively received policy shift of the 2017 manifesto, and the blame for the negatively received policy drift of the 2019 manifesto. Being leader and all. The mess over Europe is blame that can be shared by all (including both the previous and current leaders) (whipping MPs against any compromises that would give us a softer Brexit, resulting in the last minute choice becoming hard Brexit or a vote on hard Brexit... not exactly bringing people together).
who is in govt doesn’t much affect me, but there are millions who are suffering at the hands of the tories, and their needs are much more important
We haven't hard agreed for a while. Quick... pub...!
We haven’t hard agreed for a while.
Despite what I say on here, I can guarantee you that we agree on almost everything. 😄
Parroting tory lies is doing Labour no favours. Even Jacob ress mog is amused.
How would you undo the damage of a Hard Brexit...? If you think it's just a matter of ticking a box saying "yes, we'll be in the Single Market"... then you're years out of date. The UK government choose the manner of our leaving, and the nature of our replacement arrangements... the EU aren't sitting there pretending we haven't left, and offering us what they were offering us before we left. We threw all the more pragmatic and economically and socially beneficial alternative options back in their faces when they were in a position to offer them to us. Now that's done. By all means hold a grudge with those that made those choices for us... but don't be under the illusion that those choices can be remade. This is one of the big reasons why I was against Brexit... it gave our government a one off one way opportunity to transform the UK's relationships with our partner countries, and to transform the UK... and even if you had major problems with the EU, looking at who would get to make those one off one way decisions should have pushed your hand straight to the "remain" box. It's done now. There are ways back to the Single Market for Scotland (and NI could also manage to stick with it)... but England isn't going there... the damage can not be undone for us. A big thank you to everyone who voted to put us in this hole. Thanks again. Labour can't bounce us out of it now though, they can only start the long slow journey to a functioning relationship with our neighbouring countries. First... stop the slide and the phoney UKvEU battles. If only for the people of NI.
First… stop the slide and the phoney UKvEU battles. If only for the people of NI.
And the first step to do that is to get the tories out, by any means necessary. Even if that means voting for Keir Starmer, as unpalatable as that might be. Are you paying attention matty? Every year the tories are in power is another year (or more) away from your goal of closer ties to Europe.
And the first step to do that is to get the tories out, by any means necessary. Even if that means voting for Keir Starmer,
Clearly that would depend on what his actual policies would be.
After all if he helps normalise their policies then it turns the extreme into the new normal for next time.
That may be true.
But for Matty... he can help to create a situation where there is one Conservative MP who loses his seat. Even if you want the LibDems to hold more sway in parliament, in our seat the best way to enable that is to vote Labour. That's the nature of our voting system here. Voting LibDem in seats where they'll come third (at best) or voting Labour in seats where they'll come third (at best) resulting in Conservative MPs being returned... will only help keep the Conservatives in office, and maybe with another majority... and then you won't get LibDem or Labour MPs making any decisions for us... they'll just continue "carping from the sidelines" as the Tories dig us a deeper hole.
Clearly that would depend on what his actual policies would be.
Not really. There is almost no scenario where a labour govt would be as hostile to the EU as a tory govt. Repairing the damage of brexit is only possible with a govt which is willing to be constructive with the EU, rather than constantly trying to pick fights with it. That can only happen with a non-tory govt, and that means a labour govt.
There is almost no scenario where a labour govt would be as hostile to the EU as a tory govt.
FFS stop treating brexit as the only issue. Especially as it's you that keeps talking about the need to move on.
IMO dissonance's point is valid, although I would go further and say that a Labour government can actually implement Tory policies with greater ease, ie less opposition, than the Tories themselves. Two obvious examples are privatisation and going to war.
There is almost no scenario where a labour govt would be as hostile to the EU as a tory govt.
They would be just as hostile if they thought that would swing a few more Tory voters.
For the first time, I think, ever, I'm reading DazH's stuff and nodding. You're clearly more of a pragmatist than you like to make out 😉
In any election, by and large, you have to decide the least-worst option. And in the next one, that's whichever candidate has the best chance of beating the Tory. I'll probably be voting Labour, for the first time ever, not because I think SKS is brilliant (I don't, my initial enthusiasm has slowly evaporated as his mediocrity has become apparent), but I think he'll at least be competent and honest, which is something that can't be said of this Tory govt. The Labour candidate is the only one that has a chance of ousting the Tory incumbent
FFS stop treating brexit as the only issue.
Odd comment as I've not done that. Brexit came up in discussion, so we're talking about it. Doesn't mean it's the only thing on the agenda. Personally I think Starmer was stupid for bringing it back up when the cost of living and the resurgence in covid are much bigger immediate issues. Labour are weak on brexit (as they always have been), so why he wants bring the focus back to it is yet another example of his lack of political nous.
You’re clearly more of a pragmatist than you like to make out
Sorry I let my guard down and some of the real life me has invaded my carefully crafted STW persona. 🙂
FFS stop treating brexit as the only issue.
He wasn't. He was replying to someone for whom it is clearly an important issue. He was trying to make the case for them still voting Labour in a Conservative/Labour marginal seat. Many of us think that having a Labour government would be better than keeping the current government. We understand that you do not. We get that point.
Starmers failure to address basic issues within this "policy" statement is remarkable.
The Labour Party needs to address the following
1. Housing- build build build - there is no downside to this - both social housing and private.
2. Transport - trans pennine - introduce German style ticket prices.
3. Energy - build renewables as fast as possible. This will fix energy cost eventually.
4. Food stop paying Farmers to be park keepers - grow food, automate, invest.
Borrow and spend **** the expense the Tories can wring their hands about that when they get back into power in 2 elections time.
Odd comment as I’ve not done that. Brexit came up in discussion, so we’re talking about it. Do
I'm not refering to you talking about brexit, I'm referring to you treating it as the only issue that matters when dissonance quite rightly, imo, says:
Clearly that would depend on what his actual policies would be.
You replied:
Not really. There is almost no scenario where a labour govt would be as hostile to the EU as a tory govt.
You presumably took it that dissonance was talking about brexit. I doubt it, but even if that was the case it doesn't detract from the fact that the next general election will not be a single issue general election, well certainly not about brexit.
It's time to move on - even Tony Blair the man who was so desperate to be President of Europe has accepted that fact and has said that the question has been settled for at least a generation.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2009/jul/01/tony-blair-european-president