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*but I will, for no other reason than our local candidate massively deserves it.
Good.
Well it's going to be a long slog to power if it relies on the personal appeal of individual candidates rather than the appeal of the party nationally.
Why didn't you vote for Labour at the last general election? I mean, millions didn't, you're far from alone... but if you weren't prepared to vote for them then, and you're not now, I'm intrigued as to what would make a vote for Labour appealing to you? It looks an awful lot whatever they are do they doing the wrong thing, and however they do it they're going about it the wrong way. You're not just pointing out failings (of which there are many) but jumping on absolutely anything Starmer does as a negative (the most recent example being to talk up a very good by-election result too much in your opinion... and not using your chosen metrics... making him a "liar").
Remember when all the remainers on here were saying
Don't generalise or make stuff up. Remainers were appalled at Labour's initially vague stance and then agahst as the position was made clear. As a remainer I still voted labour. That went well. Though at least we retained our excellent local MP.
I was never going to accept the Brexit referendum result gave a mandate for such an act of self harm but I've had to accept we've had to deal with it. (And believe me it's a f'ing pita)
I'm accepting KS is turning out to be not the leader I want him to be but in a world of shit sandwiches, one of which I have to eat, I'll take the smaller of the two thanks.
Thank you for telling me how I think.
Is that similar to the way you label people centrist without knowing anything about them?
Remember when all the remainers on here were saying they weren’t going to vote labour in 2019 because they refused to be part of a pro-brexit majority?
Nope.
Yeah political amnesia is a fairly widespread phenomena.
I clearly remember how in the local elections 5 years ago punters were coming on here proudly announcing how they hadn't voted Labour to "teach them a lesson" for not supporting a second referendum.
Corbyn did eventually capitulate before the last general election, with devastating consequences, as he managed the remarkable feat of pissing off both leavers and remainers.
Yet now those of us who don’t want to vote labour (I really, really don’t*) on account of Starmer’s acquiesance to the right wing establishment are called ‘tory enablers’ by many of the same people who took exactly the same stance on brexit. What’s the difference?
What right wing acquiescence, all I’ve seen is either sticking with soft left policies or not being drawn into a position?
I'll add a +1 for wanting to know what the kier starmer shade bots actually need to persuade them to vote labour.
Left leaning policies had a chance at the last 2 elections. They were rejected both times (not by me, I was all for it). Clearly there's not a majority for it within our voting system. So moving back to the centre is inevitable.
The MSM is too powerful and in the hands of the right so any Labour leader is ****ed from the start imo. "Boring" is better than "terrorist sympathiser" at least.
Personally I'd like to see a PR vote policy because I think it's the only way we'll ever escape the torys
The past couple of weeks has very much clarified SKS's political outlook. His instructions to not support industrial action for those working people trying to get by and survive inflationary wage erosion has quite clearly demonstrated he is not a soft left politician, but a soft right. He is more interested in telling the few in the city of London that their profits and greed will be safe under his leadership, than he is telling the working population that he has their backs in the middle of a cost of living crisis.
all I’ve seen is either sticking with soft left policies or not being drawn into a position?
In yesterday's article which Starmer himself wrote he claims to occupy "the centre ground".
There is no mention of left policies, soft or otherwise.
The Labour Party is not currently a left-wing party. And with the centrists consolidating their power and grip on the party there is no evidence that it is likely to become one any time soon.
Remember when all the remainers on here were saying they weren’t going to vote labour in 2019 because they refused to be part of a pro-brexit majority? I clearly recall being called a nazi sympathiser for saying labour (and remainers in general) should accept the referendum result.
I think that was just me. Although I don't remember calling anyone a nazi sympathiser.
To be honest, you should probably remember that this is all academic for me since I'm an SNP supporter so I can afford to have 'red lines' and 'principles' given I don't have to vote for any unionist party.
If I lived in England then to be brutally honest I would probably vote for my local Labour candidate if that was the most likely route to blocking the Tory candidate. **** it, I might even vote lib-dem if it would block a Tory.
Anyway, like I said earlier, I'm glad you've all caught up with me and stopped supporting KS because he keeps u-turning on campaign promises.
It's just, for next time, if a candidate starts doing u-turns on policies you don't agree with anyway, don't just assume he's not going to start doing u-turns on the policies you do like.
rsl1
Left leaning policies had a chance at the last 2 elections. They were rejected both times (not by me, I was all for it). Clearly there’s not a majority for it within our voting system.
Both times they were rejected mostly for the leader and for the presentation/delivery, rather than the policies. I mean, even Miliband wasn't sure what his policies were.
Left leaning policies are the only way out of decades of disintegration.
That bit is just not rocket science.
Centrists don't really have a position as such, just a buffer between the right leaning status-quo and mild social consolation prizes.
If the right can win elections with a shit scrapbook of a decaying, failed pro-market dumping ground policies then the left (without the Brexit vote baggage) sure as hell ought to be able to win with bold and necessary progressive ideas for the masses.
The only difference is lack of conviction, ideas and drive from the cowardly and frankly lazy - current version of the Labour party hell-bent on not solving any of the UKs problems.
And let's not start with - 'you've got to get elected first.' as a typical Centrist argument. Libdems are either in power with the Tories or booted out come election time
If the Tories can get elected with nothing to offer then Labour need to up their game.
The past couple of weeks has very much clarified SKS’s political outlook. His instructions to not support industrial action for those working people trying to get by and survive inflationary wage erosion has quite clearly demonstrated he is not a soft left politician, but a soft right. He is more interested in telling the few in the city of London that their profits and greed will be safe under his leadership, than he is telling the working population that he has their backs in the middle of a cost of living crisis.
Labour have pushed for negotiations to be continued, especially in the current climate, and have in the main blamed government for negotiation breakdowns, that’s a long way from right wing views on this issue.
I’ve not heard him say anything to the city about labour protecting their capitalism?
There’s still plenty of time for labour to push more, this will be a summer of strikes.
Labour have pushed for negotiations to be continued, especially in the current climate, and have in the main blamed government for negotiation breakdowns, that’s a long way from right wing views on this issue.
SKS told his MP's not to support the pickets, he was going to punish those who ignored him until he realised that they had public support.
Pushing unions to negotiate with companies negotiating in bad faith is just empty rhetoric and does not support working people.
I’ve not heard him say anything to the city about labour protecting their capitalism?
The actions above are the message, he doesn't always need to write an opinion piece in the telegraph to let them know which side he is on.
bold and necessary progressive ideas for the masses
As someone who has always been to the left of Labour, I have to ask myself if the masses will support that. The signs are that they will not. Is it possible to persuade the public to support the policy platform of 2017, given the right leader, absolutely. 2019? I don’t believe so. I’d like to be proven wrong one day, but I don’t think that day is the next General Election. Does that make me a centrist, or just someone who lives in England who listens to other people?
All I'm seeing currently is the same hatred of the labour party for 'not being left enough', as the same absurd lib dem voters that absatined after the tory coalition 'sellout'.
To me it just shows a total lack of undersanding of how the political machine works in the UK.
Sure don't vote labour or lib dem, but in doing that you may as well vote tory. Go you!
I'm probably more aligned to lib dem rather than labour, but I'll vote labour without a second thought, If, I think that's the best way to get the conservatives out of power.
We have a common enemy as people here, so officially or unoficcialy we need to work together to change the direction of the political tide.
I’m probably more aligned to lib dem rather than labour, but I’ll vote labour without a second thought, If, I think that’s the best way to get the conservatives out of power.
I would reciprocate that if I lived in a Tory/LibDem marginal. Punishing the LibDems for the coalition gave us more Conservative MPs. Punishing Labour for moving their policies “right” from 2019 will do the same. Tactical voting is key. Or we’ll keep getting majority Tory governments based on a minority of support.
We have a common enemy as people here, so officially or unoficcialy we need to work together to change the direction of the political tide.
What direction is that?
What direction is that?
Away from the right?
What direction is that?
Hatred, poverty, confusion and disillusion with the tories, or something more progressive.
Away from the right?
How?
How
By voting Labour, Lib Dems SNP or Green maybe?
Still no answers I see, just arguing that I'm wrong. Wasn't that what you don't like about starmer?
We have a common enemy as people here
This is the problem with labour, they are least two factions, center left and far left, the far left hate starmer and will abstain, rather than vote lib dem, hence handing votes to the tories.
JHFC
The thing is it's usually the centrists who are causing the division. It was when Corbyn was in power, it is now.
All I’m seeing currently is the same hatred of the labour party for ‘not being left enough’, as the same absurd lib dem voters that absatined after the tory coalition ‘sellout’.
Not left enough? Starmer doesn't even claim that Labour is left-wing. He proudly announced yesterday that Labour was now an established centre party.
And the LibDems did indeed sellout which is precisely why 12 years later their support is still half of what it was before the sellout.
Nick Clegg and the LibDems enabled a Tory government, they enabled and enthusiastically supported austerity, with all its devastating consequences. They could have joined a grand anti-Tory coalition government but because they objected so strongly to Gordon Brown being PM they decided to cosy up with the Tories instead.
I find it hugely reassuring that so many of their former supporters haven't forgotten that.
All I’m seeing currently is the same hatred of the labour party
It’s not hatred of the party, just massive disappointment and anger with a small number of people at the top of the party, who are willing to abandon the party’s mission and principles when it isn’t necessary.
Labour can win power with a progressive agenda which helps working people. The current leadership don’t want to do that, they just want the power. And f*** knows why when they don’t seem to want to do anything with it.
I'm not going to argue against the above few points, because that would be a waste of time.
But they do illustrate quite nicely why the Conservatives might well win the next gerneral election, whenever that comes.
And the LibDems did indeed sellout which is precisely why 12 years later their support is still half of what it was before the sellout.
Nick Clegg and the LibDems enabled a Tory government, they enabled and enthusiastically supported austerity, with all its devastating consequences. They could have joined a grand anti-Tory coalition government but because they objected so strongly to Gordon Brown being PM they decided to cosy up with the Tories instead.
We certainly agree on that. The damage they willingly inflicted is there for all to see.
I’m not going to argue against the above few points, because that would be a waste of time.
But they do illustrate quite nicely why the Conservatives might well win the next gerneral election, whenever that comes.
So you feel that it might well be a widespread view which could result in the Conservatives winning the next election. That's great. But why hasn't the message apparently got across to Starmer?
This is the problem with labour, they are least two factions, center left and far left, the far left hate starmer and will abstain, rather than vote lib dem
The problem is the "far left" are actually the "left". Its just when the centrists got their hands on power they dragged everything hard right so mildly left wing policies are now claimed to be "far left".
The left gave starmer the benefit of the doubt initially, unlike the centrist nutters with Corbyn, but have just lost patience with him. Just look back through the thread to see those evolving views.
As for vote libdem dont you recall what happened last time? They would need to purge the orange book brigade to make it worth the risk.
It is fascinating how keen some people are to provide lectures now on the chances of the tories winning. Were you as keen when binners and his fellow nutters were doing their best to help the tories out?
Wasn’t that what you don’t like about starmer?
What do you like about Starmer?
The left gave starmer the benefit of the doubt initially, unlike the centrist nutters with Corbyn, but have just lost patience with him.
This is absolutely me. Whilst I liked Corbyn’s manifestos, I could see that the writing was on the wall with him from an early stage. A career of being an idealistic but somewhat naive chancer was not a good foundation for a Leader, and gave his enemies all the ammo they needed to destroy him. I spotted SKS’s political ambitions early on, long pre Corbyn, and kind of knew he was going to be the party leader at some point. I was cautiously optimistic about him; human rights lawyer and champion of the underdog through his legal career made me feel like he’d be someone that people can get behind.
But I’ve become more and more disappointed with him. He’s rowed back on commitment after commitment and now it feels like you’d be hard pushed to tell the difference between him and David Cameron, except maybe Cameron was a bit more exciting and clearer on what he stood for. SKS’s vacuum of intent feels disingenuous at best, dishonest at worst.
His behaviour in relation to the RMT strikes has been appalling for a Labour leader; talk about walking away from the working people base. It comes across as calculated and cynical. I feel very disenfranchised by him.
His behaviour in relation to the RMT strikes has been appalling for a Labour leader; talk about walking away from the working people base. It comes across as calculated and cynical. I feel very disenfranchised by him.
But not surprising to those who knew what motivates Starmer. In fact it was very much predicted as a clear possibility almost two and a half years ago, a couple of months before Starmer became Labour Leader, by David Renton QC. Quote:
"Starmer’s enthusiasm while DPP for using mundane news events to feed the press with rightwing talking points is a possible concern for Labour members. If such a leader was faced with news of an injustice in the future – the consequence of a change to immigration rules, say, or of a strike in public services – Starmer’s approach to the press as DPP might raise worries that he would not give a principled defence of the victims but would tell the press whatever it wanted to hear"
Scarily accurate.
https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/feb/16/keir-starmer-past-scrutiny
So you would still rather have de Pfeffel than Starmer in here?
'Man of the people' Boris and the 'men not so much of the people' behind him, is still better than some sort of 'Tory-lite' Starmer Government?
This is why we can't aspire to nice things.
This is why we can’t aspire to nice things.
Not likely with either current party as they're following an economic model that won't offer it - or pay decent wages to provide a good standard of living.
We'd quite like better than both.
Centrists doing their best to force everyone to accept a lower standard of Labour party, and standard of living because they think that is the route to power.
What's embarrassing is that lower standard of Labour party still ain't that close to delivering the goods against this disasterous backdrop.
You lot of have been so dumbed down by the establishment's offerings you will never have nice things.
This is why we can’t aspire to nice things.
What would they be? What is labour offering that will be better than the tories? Serious question, because I haven’t a clue.
Aren't they encouraging us to vote for non-material be happy benefits like 'respect' and 'security'? I can't wait.
What is labour offering that will be better than the tories? Serious question, because I haven’t a clue.
I think you will find the answer that you are looking for in the Boris Johnson thread.
Johnson is so utterly evil that it doesn't matter what Labour are offering.
No further explanation is required.
is still better than some sort of ‘Tory-lite’ Starmer Government?
How do you think we ended up with Johnson, brexit and the hard right loons to begin with?
Thats the flaw with this seize the centre approach. The centre then shifts to the side and you end up with mildly left wing policies being called far left and policies which Thatcher wouldnt have touched with someone elses bargepole being considered centrist.
Starmer says they're putting the earlier manifesto to one side and wiping the slate clean for the new one.
Absolutely can't wait for this shiner when it appears.
I'm guessing it will be a couple of pages about tax cuts and insulation grants; peppered with photos of NHS workers largely from different ethnic backgrounds but no real wage commitments for them as times are tough - and no more EU.
Photos - I'm assuming pictures of Starmer clapping, couple of shots of terraced houses with skinheads stood outside and maybe some wind turbines in the background faded to red/green.
And a big wash of flag.
The Guardian: David Lammy apologises for getting facts wrong about BA strike.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/jun/29/david-lammy-apologises-for-getting-facts-wrong-about-ba-strike
I am unconvinced that he "misheard". I struggle to believe that he didn't know the very basic facts behind a dispute on which he publicly expressed very strong opinions.
It sounds like the sort of pathetic excuse which we have come to expect from the current Prime Minister.
He has been making the point that however worthy a claim might be unions should not resort to the only genuine weapon they have available and take industrial action.
Instead, Lammy claims, they should only "negotiate", whilst totally ignoring the very likely possibility that an employer might have absolutely no intention at all of negotiating with a trade union which it feels won't strike.
I suspect that Lammy and the Starmer team were taken back by the predictable backlash to Labour's callous Tory-inspired position towards working people involved in dispute with employers, hence the backtracking and the claim of "misheard".