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A riding buddy of mine once referred to me as being "centre-left". Seeing it as an insult I remonstrated with him insisting that I was not centre-left but left-wing.
He responded with "I was trying to be polite".
Having established that in your opinion the alleged nom dom connection is a weirdo conspiracy theory why then, in your opinion, have the right-wing press recently taken a particularly hostile attitude towards Starmer, or would you deny that they have?
I personally have never subscribed to there being some sort of co-ordinated action. I am afraid I also believe newspapers follow their readership rather than the other way round. I think it is simply Starmer has been caught in an awkward situation and it makes a "good" story. Likewise he (and much of his front bench) looks like an idiot(s) when he can't define a woman and that makes a good story too. I think then a momentum can then build up which keeps the pressure on which causes mistakes to be made and it becomes a vicious circle. This is conjecture.
Corbyn was a special case because of his historic support for the IRA, the general anti Western outlook of Stop the War and the views of various other organisations he was associated with. The conservative press detested everything about him.
rone
Free Member
It’s a tabloid term – hard left.Soft left I’ve never really heard used.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_left
I personally have never subscribed to there being some sort of co-ordinated action. I am afraid I also believe newspapers follow their readership rather than the other way round. I think it is simply Starmer has been caught in an awkward situation and it makes a “good” story.
I tend to agree that coordinated action by the right-wing press is unlikely and that a good story/scandal has more influence on what they print.
I don't really agree with you that right-wing papers follow their readers rather than the other way round. A good chunk of Daily Mail readers don't vote Tory, probably somewhere in the region of 18-20% vote Labour and a probably a similar amount vote LibDem, are you seriously suggesting that the Daily Mail isn't 100% pro-Tory in it's editorial policy?
And do you believe that News International switched from decades of supporting the Tories and backed New Labour because of pressure from Sun and Times readers, and not cosy little chats between Rupert Murdoch and Tony Blair?
I agree even less with your opinion on why there was intense hatred towards Jeremy Corbyn from the right-wing press. It had nothing to do with his views decades earlier on how to resolve the Troubles.
Like many on the left, myself included, Corbyn saw that the Troubles could not be resolved through a military solution, which at the time was the policy of both Tory and Labour governments. Instead he argued that only a political solution could resolve the endless violence and that would involve talking to all sides, including obviously the IRA.
A strategy which was finally fully embraced by your former party leader John Major, after the removal of Margret Thatcher's toxic influence, and which ultimately brought peace to NI.
Your claim that Corbyn supported the IRA is even more false than the claim that John Major and Tony Blair surrendered to the IRA.
For decades the right-wing press had no problem with Corbyn and his past views on NI. All that changed when he ceased to be a backbencher and became party leader.
Suddenly they started to hate him. Not because of his past but because of the very real threat he posed to those with power and wealth. His commitment to fighting for peace in NI was simply used as a stick to beat him with, as you have just done by accusing him of supporting the IRA - which btw would have resulted in immediate expulsion from the Labour Party. History doesn't condemn Corbyn, it vindicates him.
Thanks for answering btw.
Edit: Btw mefty did you see me mention the other day that one of my local councillors is a former full member of the IRA? She is close to the new Tory mayor of Croydon, like him she is in the Tory Party.
https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1523710871758794752?s=20&t=TJoVwpNFau-2CgfAofFJMg
STW fiasco! Sort it out peeps.
are you seriously suggesting that the Daily Mail isn’t 100% pro-Tory in it’s editorial policy?
No but I think its defining characteristic under Dacre was that it was socially conservative (small c) and that is a reasonably large market. Also people buy papers for lots a reasons, apparently the Femail section is popular as is the TV section.
And do you believe that News International switched from decades of supporting the Tories and backed New Labour because of pressure from Sun and Times readers, and not cosy little chats between Rupert Murdoch and Tony Blair?
I think their readership was ready for a change and Blair would have won without the support of the Sun. I am not saying the papers aren't without influence but I believe it is overstated and is generally used an excuse for failure.
I agree even less with your opinion on why there was intense hatred towards Jeremy Corbyn from the right-wing press.
There is always a danger of personal projection but I have never met anyone on the right who has bought your explanation. No one gave a toss about Corbyn until he become leader. he was one of the loony left, an irrelevance. But once he became Leader he was no longer an irrelevance and he was regarded as an order of magnitude worse that Michael Foot, who got monstered too. You will no doubt remember Michael Foot's speech following the invasion of the Falklands. Can you honestly imagine Corbyn contemplating making such a speech? I can't and I don't think any of the relevant newspaper editors could either. His domestic agenda hardly got a look in.
Yes, I was aware but was reminded by the thread.
There is always a danger of personal projection but I have never met anyone on the right who has bought your explanation.
And yet you don't seem to be really challenging my explanation. You have gone from claiming that the right-wing press hated Corbyn because of his views on NI to now apparently claiming that it was because he was such a hopeless politician......which obviously they should have been celebrating rather than seeking to replace him.
The truth is that they were faced for the first time in decades with a Labour Party leader who posed a real threat to the status quo. He wanted to turn the UK away from neo-liberalism and Thatcherism and towards social democracy - somewhere slightly to the right of Harold McMillan and Edward Heath.
I am not saying the papers aren’t without influence but I believe it is overstated and is generally used an excuse for failure.
I totally agree with that. It's the perennial excuse of some on the left for failure. As if it was ever any different!
And as you rightly point out it is very much overstated, eg, on the eve of the 2017 general election the Daily Mail had 13 pages, yes 13 pages, denouncing Corbyn, other right-wing newspapers might not have gone quite that far but they weren't that far behind.
That didn't stop Labour from increasing its share of the vote in 2017 by the greatest amount since the 1945 general election. It required a further 2 years of Corbyn being denounced by Labour MPs, not the Daily Mail, that resulted in the catastrophic result of the general election 2 years later.
I generally blame the left for the failures of the left, rather than voters and the Tories. It doesn't win me many friends among those who seem to hate Tories and voters in equal measure.
And yet you don’t seem to be really challenging my explanation.
Because it is irrelevant, we argued about it years ago but whatever our personal views the coverage is going to be influenced by what the journalists believed and I think the number who believed your explanation was incredibly small based on all the sarky comments by journalists, let alone RW journalists about Corbyn and Northern Ireland on Twitter. (I find Twitter is quite good at seeing what people really believe because they let their guards down. You also discover how dumb they are.)
You have gone from claiming that the right-wing press hated Corbyn because of his views on NI to now apparently claiming that it was because he was such a hopeless politician
Not at all, I was explaining the change in coverage and I raised the Falklands speech not because Corbyn wouldn't have the oratorical skill to make such a speech - few do - I don't think many can imagine him contemplating making such a hawkish speech, let alone making one. Can you?
but whatever our personal views the coverage is going to be influenced by what the journalists believed
Oh come off it! Do you seriously expect me to believe that journalists who work for right-wing Tory newspapers actually believed all the bollocks they wrote about Corbyn??? LOL!
Yeah let's agree to differ on that one! 😃
Maybe it was all personal grudges because they never got any of his legendary gooseberry jam?
Yeah let’s agree to differ on that one!
Yeah, agreed, although the explanations for Corbyn were met with similar levels of merriment on the right as far as I can see.
STW fiasco! Sort it out peeps.
I agree entirely.
For what it's worth I utterly despise political partisanship, it's self destructive and divisory.
Every political and social issue deserves it's own taylor made, and fair solution according to the circumstances. Solutions to some problems might be "X" and others "Y" but other letters are available.
I don't care if your lab/lib/con/mountain goat..
The truth is that they were faced for the first time in decades with a Labour Party leader who posed a real threat to the status quo. He wanted to turn the UK away from neo-liberalism and Thatcherism and towards social democracy – somewhere slightly to the right of Harold McMillan and Edward Heath.
It's a bit of a fallacy to think that the press or country were scared that Corbyn would suddenly create a social democracy in the UK if Labour had won in 2019, even if by some miracle Labour got in with a majority, they'd still struggle to bring in any real policy and make it stick, it just doesn't happen that way unfortunately, anywhere in the west.
He'd have been able to do some stuff, but then reality would have just gotten in the way, COVID, Brexit, Ukraine, etc, etc, there's just too many things going on to stay on a course, the tories know that just now because even with a majority, they're struggling to get stuff through.
The one thing that i had an issue with Corbyn was his lack of being a real threat, you just had to watch him in PMQs with Cameron to see he was easily out manoeuvred to look bad in the press, he got an easier ride with May, but then again she was probably just wondering how she ended up as PM!
For what it’s worth I utterly despise political partisanship, it’s self destructive and divisory.
Every political and social issue deserves it’s own taylor made, and fair solution according to the circumstances. Solutions to some problems might be “X” and others “Y” but other letters are available.
I don’t care if your lab/lib/con/mountain goat..
In which case there would no need for political parties.
Or maybe just one party.
One big all-bracing party.
Or PR
if Labour had won in 2019, even if by some miracle Labour got in with a majority
Miracle? It hardly needed a miracle - two years earlier Labour had robbed the Tories of their majority.
Going from no party with a majority to a Labour government with a majority isn't a huge seismic change that can only be triggered by some sort of unprecedented political miracle.
Unless of course you meant that it would have been some sort of miracle if Labour had won an election after years of Labour MPs publicly attacking the party leader, in which case I would agree a hundred percent with you.
Or PR
Why would anyone join a political party if no one felt that one party had the answers?
In which case there would no need for political parties.
Or maybe just one party.
One big all-bracing party.
Or, and this might sound totally crazy, a forum of all opinions and views equaly represented and balanced. Maybe some sort of parliament that can actually function...madness. MADNESS I TELL YOU!
No not madness at all imo - no political parties, just a forum of all opinions and views equally represented and balanced.
Sounds like a brilliant idea.
You just need to first establish a classless society without contradictory interests.
Also people are still talking about Corbyn? What ever for? he's literaly history..is he even still alive?
It's humiliating talking to eurpeans about the UK...like boris banging on about Churhill etc.. just get in the sea.
.
No, lol, let's not mention the C word 😉
I apologise, I've had a drink, and I despair.
Miracle? It hardly needed a miracle – two years earlier Labour had
robbed the Tories of their majoritylost a general election
FTFY
How can you say that the RW press is anything other than completely sane & normal
https://twitter.com/BelfastAgmt/status/1524145376126717953?t=7LXviRN4h3aCMFi7kJIM3Q&s=19
Christ! Is that real?! 😳
FTFY
Not for me you haven't, but maybe for yourself.
No one won the 2017 general election, something which you have repeatedly shown that you can't get your head round.
It's really not that difficult - to win a general election a party needs to win a majority of the seats. It's that simple.
I think this thread needs a quick reboot.
It’s really not that difficult – to win a general election a party needs to
win a majority of the seatsfind enough useful idiots to prop them up to form a government and then take power. It’s that simple
FTFY again
This is fun!
Your go…
😃
Saw this, could it be true?
https://twitter.com/Trickyjabs/status/1524149360296091649?s=20&t=dzHdSQEJ_eQjO5a5S5sSaQ
Find enough idiots to prop them up
Ah, we're back to vilifying voters.
Oh you and your winning ways binners.
With people like you in the party calling voters idiots it's surprising that Labour aren't making much electoral progress.
I wasn’t vilifying voters, I was stating a truism about the DUP. Something they’re continuing to prove even today, as they demonstrate yet again that they really are the village idiots of UK politics. And that’s quite some boast over the last 6 years
Come on, comrade.
You’re better than this
UK government is a bit like this at the moment...
Boris is definitely Jay!
Well, he did accuse little old Elsie, who was just trying to keep warm, of being a bus****er earlier this wek!
My apologies binners, it's sometimes hard to keep up with who you are vilifying and calling idiots.....the Tories, the Left, voters in general, the punters down the Rose and Crown in Ramsbottom.
Apparently the idiots this time were DUP. Not a usual target of your insults so I didn't initially clock on.
I’m all about the equal opportunities comrade. Almost Corbynesque in my inclusivity.
Everyone is fair game and equally deserving of my contempt. 😃
The DUP are hillarious, they want to maintain the UK, despite brexit and being Irish...
...it's almost like a paradox that everyone saw coming.
Cake and eat it? anyone? How much did the conservatives pay them to shut up, I don't reacall?
They are probably just sniffing for a cash injection from a London that couldn't care less.
Talking of peoples open contempt for morons, Theresa May gave the inbred half-wits of the DUP a reminder today that they voted against her Brexit bill that would have prevented the border in the Irish Sea but voted for Johnson’s deal which created one
As thick as a Boxing Day turd, the lot of them
https://twitter.com/darranmarshall/status/1524065734132965378?s=21&t=M-2EqsLKpjkwcwvRY6tCFQ
This is probably a more accurate summination
https://twitter.com/jibbajabb/status/1524059349370515457?s=21&t=M-2EqsLKpjkwcwvRY6tCFQ
Christ, the halcyon days of Theresa May... if we knew now what would we could have known then, etc.
Also the halcyon days of David Cameron...he's gone a bit quiet, has he oursourced himself to the caymans?
Big difference between the two ex-PMs and their lives after no10… one has shown themselve to be a dedicated public servant working for their constituency and country (who I disagree with politically), the other has been exposed to have always been working for themselves and their donors (who doesn’t really have any politics beyond progressing their own self interest).
If anyone’s interested, the full Aaron Bastani interview with Oliver Eagleton is on
Novara Media
If anyone’s interested, the full Aaron Bastani interview with Oliver Eagleton is on
Novara Media
Christ, if i wanted to spend 1 hour 20 minutes listening to Corbynists slating Keir Starmer i'd give DazH a call 😂
Yeah actual analysis of locals here
https://twitter.com/prospect_clark/status/1524021555847745537?t=Bmxh4Z0GuPaKQps6lBSIjA&s=19