Interesting response:
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org.uk/article/the-sacking-of-rebecca-long-bailey-some-reactions/
Good grief, I completely agree with dazh.
It always was political, just showed how useless Corbyn was as a leader, unable to deal with such an overtly political attack.
I too am getting a little worried about the phrase 'Then you're part of the problem' trotted out to anyone who is deemed to not be on message, or who's views are considered unworthy because their racial heritage doesn't fit.
I completely agree with dazh.
2
Do we prefer Keir Starmtrooper or The Starminator?
There’s a world of difference between genuine criticism of the conduct of the Israeli state and a load of old tinfoil-helmeted nonsense.
What was being expressed fell very firmly into the latter category
Come the next election they’ll piss and moan, cry and wail but ultimately they’ll put their X in the Labour box.
Funny, cos for decades Labour took that view of its red wall: that the votes could be weighed rather than counted.
All the loss of the ‘Red Wall’ seats demonstrates is how spectacularly electorally repellent Corbynism actually was.
Look at the present polling for Starmer and compare and contrast with last Decembers disastrous election results
I too am getting a little worried about the phrase ‘Then you’re part of the problem’ trotted out to anyone who is deemed to not be on message, or who’s views are considered unworthy because their racial heritage doesn’t fit.
You don’t have to be “on message”… just don’t spread anti-Semitic conspiracy theory nonsense. It spreads far too well without help from people who aren’t anti-Semitic. It isn’t just the racist people that spread, or condone the spreading of, racist nutjob nonsense, we are all liable to do so unless we are very careful, and are prepared to correct ourselves when we slip up.
All the loss of the ‘Red Wall’ seats demonstrates is how spectacularly electorally repellent Corbynism actually was.
Grown-ups realise that it's a bit more complicated than that.
Come the next election they’ll piss and moan, cry and wail but ultimately they’ll put their X in the Labour box. The Centrist voters (like me) will find Starmer far more palatable then Johnson and with Brexit over (it’ll never be over, but over enough) Red Leavers will return to the fold. It worked for Blair, it’ll work for Starmer.
Can't see the next election being a contest between those two.
Johnson is tarred with thousands of deaths on his hands from the shambles of a response to CV.
The conservatives are too smart to put him up again, there'll be a New Leader and a Fresh Start. He'll be happy to stand side for an easier life too, ambition fulfilled, from a job that needs more work than he actually likes doing.
And starmer has a long way to go before he leads labour into an election. He's been very supportive of this governments CV response and his lack of opposition could well come back to bite him when the deaths and inquiries get totaled up, and Johnson's gone.
That's if his own party haven't had another domestic before and shoot themselves in the foot.
And starmer has a long way to go before he leads labour into an election.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say now that he'll have about the same impact as Ed Miliband.
I completely agree with dazh.
yes +1
You don’t have to be “on message”
Are you joking? At the start of the anti-semitism hysteria you had to be a dedicated anti-zionist to be called an anti-semite, then we progressed through various esoteric arguments about what constitutes anti-semitism involving sub-clauses and edge cases, to now being labelled an anti-semite for sharing a tweet which indirectly and inaccurately claims that the Israeli army might once have trained US cops.
Where does it end? Probably with more real anti-semitism, because outside of the transparently political motivations most people are utterly sick of being smeared as racists for doing or saying absolutely nothing, and might actually start forming a negative opinion of the people who are doing the accusing.
So... after the paper, the charity, and the actor... all helpfully issue clarifications... some of you still see nothing wrong with the original article? There is no hope for you.
Again, you can mistakenly help spread these anti-Semitic tropes without having anti-Semitic intentions, and without being anti-Semitic. We all can. If we mistakenly do so, we should correct and apologise, and do what we can to stop them spreading further.
to now being labelled an anti-semite for sharing a tweet which indirectly and inaccurately claims that the Israeli army might once have trained US cops.
Why do you think Israel was singled out for "training the US police forces in Kneeling techniques", and not any other SF/army organisation from any other country that might have actually provided some training?
Bojo would be very jealous of that move.
He would. And he's the one Starmer is trying to beat.
I just don't get the angst. Labour were made unelectable (genuinely or cosmetically - it doesn't matter) by people like RLB. Labour either want to win elections or they don't. Getting rid of oafs like Long-Bailey makes this more likely.
Sure there are a few Man City fans who bemoan their transformation from 3rd Division drudgery to Premier League champions as a betrayal of some kind of quaint ethos. But there are a lot more Man City fans in total now.
Election wins or ideological purity in the Common Room.....?
Why do you think Israel was singled out for “training the US police forces in Kneeling techniques”, and not any other SF/army organisation from any other country that might have actually provided some training?
As I've said before, there's no evidence I've seen to support the specific allegation of kneeling techniques, and it's quite possible that the allegation is being spread because of anti-semitism. On the other hand, it's a matter of record that US police departments have received training from Israeli forces, organisations with a well-documented history of human rights abuses.
“I want to talk about the racism in the USA that is resulting in deaths, with little or no justice forthcoming” - “I’d like to start by talking about Israel.”
Whatever the intentions, the clarification and apologies are welcome… but… mostly thanks to RLB… social media is now awash with people doubling down on that conspiracy theory nonsense. The damage is done. Another drip towards the acceptance of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories as fact.
organisations with a well-documented history of human rights abuses
TBH given what I've read of the history of policing in the States, they don't need lessons from anyone in human rights abuse.
All the loss of the ‘Red Wall’ seats demonstrates is how spectacularly electorally repellent Corbynism actually was.
I don't think that was just down to Corbynism.. A large number of Labour voters switched because they want brexit, and whilst Labour didn't take a unified position, they voted tory as they are undoubtedly pro brexit.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say now that he’ll have about the same impact as Ed Miliband.
I disagree.. He's demolishing Johnson at PMQs and he's not messing about cutting dead wood out of the shadow cabinet.
I think we need to take into consideration the many advantages Labour has enjoyed since Grandad and the millionaire Marxists were dispatched to the allotment...
Since Starmer took over we’ve not heard a peep out of Tory-Christmas-Present, Ivy Club Revolutionary and all round gobshite Len ****ing McClusky.
You can’t put a price on that, and the blessed relief of his silence is probably worth 10 points in the polls, alone 😂
She's only been sacked from the shadow cabinet, not expelled from the party. She might even be 'rehabilitated' as she does at least have a bit of media recognisability (if that's a word). But yeah there was the sniff of dog whistle about the Israel ref, pretty naive, very convenient for starmer.
And here's the real kicker. You can become electable and keep most of your ideological purity.
The technique is to lie in your manifesto. The Tories figured this out a long time ago.
I think we need to take into consideration the many advantages Labour has enjoyed since Grandad and the millionaire Marxists were dispatched to the allotment…
You Starmer supporters are just like brexiteers. You won, get over it!
Only the Tories have won anything.
Only the Tories have won anything.
I agree that Labour has moved, but red Tories seems harsh.
I agree that Labour has moved, but red Tories seems harsh.
It is harsh. I would like the 'Fresh Labour' (can't use the word 'new') slogan to be something along the lines of 'Politics: you don't have to be a ****'.
To be honest, anything vaguely centrist and not totally ****ing barmy would do me right now.
We have a joke government run by a clown and half the population seem to think that is fine because "it's a laugh, innit? Y'know, tongue in cheek, like. That's wot uz Brits are like, innit...."
To be honest, anything vaguely centrist and not totally **** barmy would do me right now.
Fun fact: in the 1951 general election, the Tories promised to build more council houses than Labour. Which they did.
Why do you think Israel was singled out
Maybe because the IDF have a proven track record of brutality and racially motivated aggression? Probably also something to do with the miltary relationship between Israel and the US government. <span style="font-size: 12.8px;">I certainly don't believe it's because Maxine Peake or RLB are screaming anti-semites.</span><span style="font-size: 12.8px;"> I'm not claiming Peake and RLB don't despise the Israeli state, they probably do, along with many other people who oppose their treatment of the Palestinians. That's entirely consistent with their politics, but it's not anti-semitic.</span>
“I’d like to start by talking about Israel.”
I don't read it like that at all. I read it as 'US cops were trained by a military force with a reputation for racially motivated violence which might have influenced their treatment of black people'.
‘US cops were trained by a military force with a reputation for racially motivated violence which might have influenced their treatment of black people’.
The racism shown by police forces in the USA is not down to Israel. It is down to the people of the USA. There is an historic international context though… and that leads straight to us here in the UK. Try after me…
“The racist violence shown by police in the USA is not down to Israel in any way.”
Go on, try it, rather than keeping the conspiracy theory bullshit alive.
You Starmer supporters are just like brexiteers. You won, get over it!
Somewhat predictably, You’re definition of ‘winning‘ is different to mine and that’s quite telling in itself. The Labour Party has won absolutely **** all!
The point is that they are now in with a serious chance of doing so next time out, which was never a realistic proposition under Grandad.
That was half the problem. The Corbynites classed taking over the leadership of the Labour Party as a final destination, rather than a staging post towards forming a government. They thought that in itself was ‘victory’. But then that’s what you get with all narrow-minded sects
The racism shown by police forces in the USA is not down to Israel.
I agree, US cops don't need lessons from anyone when it comes to racism, they're perfectly capable of that themselves. But you don't think their links with a military organisation with a reputation for racist violence is relevant when there's a spotlight on their racist behaviour? The fact that it's Israel is irrelevant, it would be just as noteworthy if it was South Africa, Saudi Arabia or any other state with racist cops and soldiers.
As I’ve said before, there’s no evidence I’ve seen to support the specific allegation of kneeling techniques, and it’s quite possible that the allegation is being spread because of anti-semitism. On the other hand, it’s a matter of record that US police departments have received training from Israeli forces, organisations with a well-documented history of human rights abuses.
Peake said “the tactics used by the police in America, kneeling on George Floyd’s neck, that was learnt from seminars with Israeli secret services”.
Okay police share training round the world. But neck kneeling was not taught by Israeli secret services, and Amnesty International, cited as source didn't say this - confirmed here: https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2020/06/amnesty-international-we-never-reported-neck-kneeling-taught-israelis-us
So why single out Israel as behind the killing? Loads of other forces use forceful restraint or whatever. Israel does some very bad things which should be challenged, but in a focused way for what they are. These sorts of smears do align with conspiracies about Jews being behind all sorts of stuff round the world. It's not about not feeling antisemitic. I'm sure Peake doesn't and isn't, it's about registering what your saying and seeing what's in front of your nose. And yep, RLB really should have seen this.
Amnesty International
It was a blog post from Amnesty USA.
But then that’s what you get with all narrow-minded sects
Is this an irregular verb thing?
You are a narrow minded sect
I know the path to victory
from the NS piece I linked:
Amnesty International has now issued a clarification that its report does not show any evidence of “neck kneeling” as a technique taught by the Israeli secret services, nor evidence that the Minnesota police force received training from the Israeli secret services.
Is this an irregular verb thing?
You are a narrow minded sect
I know the path to victory
Is it a quiz? Do I get to phone a friend?
Is it a quiz? Do I get to phone a friend?
Take all the help you can get.
The great thing about all the die-hard Corbynites moaning about Starmer and his ‘Right Wing’ / Populist agenda is it doesn’t matter, they’re too politically active to stay away from the voting booth and nowhere else for them to go. Come the next election they’ll piss and moan, cry and wail but ultimately they’ll put their X in the Labour box.
This is patently untrue. I walked away from Labour when Blair was leader and only tentatively returned when Corbyn took over as leader. I will vote, but I have yet to be convinced about Labour under Starmer.
That was half the problem. The Corbynites classed taking over the leadership of the Labour Party as a final destination, rather than a staging post towards forming a government. They thought that in itself was ‘victory’. But then that’s what you get with all narrow-minded sects
Is there any evidence to support this, it sounds like utter codswallop to me. It’s also a bit rich calling them ‘narrow-minded’, when you’d constantly berate someone for having an allotment!
Looking at social media it seems the virtue-signalling, sixth form bed-wetters are up in arms and all apparently leaving the Labour Party, so it’s a win/win/win for him.
Don’t let the door hit your arse on the way out. Good luck with joining George Galloway and whatever his party is called nowadays. I’m sure the next election is in the bag
Clowns
You really have zero self awareness don't you? Wasn't that when Chuka Umunna and his Tinge buddies were the next big things destined for greatness amd you were cheering them on like a giddy schoolgirl.
You could teach Orwell a thing or two.
So it is a quiz and I do get to phone a friend then?
I’m calling the restless spirit of George Orwell or Seamas Milne. One of the two.
Which one do you reckon?
Is there any evidence to support this, it sounds like utter codswallop to me. It’s also a bit rich calling them ‘narrow-minded’, when you’d constantly berate someone for having an allotment!
No - none whatsoever
Its a shame but there are not enough left wing voters to win an election. Corbyn got absolutely loads of new voters (and new members) but not enough.
You need the centre to win.
You also need the RW press not on your case!
The 2018 Basic Law established different rights for different ethnic groups under law, and this is apartheid. No-one, apart from the racists, would suggest to criticise apartheid in South Africa was an anti-white conspiracy. Clearly if you are going to deny people rights you need to dominate them physically and legally so apartheid states concentrate very hard on military solutions and it helps if you have a racist ideology to justify it. This investment can be defrayed by selling your kit or your training to other countries who see fit to treat people in this way and in the process train them into your way of thinking. 'White zionism' is a thing in the US and here, Tommy Robinson has spoken about it.
This has become ludicrous. Yes the evidence says police have been sent to learn new techniques but no, not kneeling on the necks, not that, everything but that. To criticise Israel is a conspiracy against jews? Most of my concerns about what's going on the come from Ha'aretz and Naomi Klein supports BDS, the Jewish Voice for Labour backs RLB. It ain't as simple as they'd like you to think.
The idea of a 'trope' is to delegitimise a criticism as in 'you said that but you really mean this, and you are a ...' and so any criticism is a 'racist conspiracy' and you will shut up. Quick, switch from evidence to ad-hom. To point out training programmes for the police is therefore re-written as 'jews killed George Floyd'. Much better if we confine the debate to insults, false conflations, ageism, allotments, being virtuous, then we'll really get to the bottom of things.
