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I'd always thought of Boris as a seventies throwback as well, like a bit part actor in a Carry On film. It might have been funny once upon a time to do a Benny Hill skit with footage of Boris sped up to match the frenetic music. Only now it would be more appropriate to slow the music down to a crawl to match his apathetic, turgid lethargishness.
Yes. (Opinium last month.)
How exciting it has become to see Labour level pegging in just two polls against these atrocities.
At the risk of going into Binners mode.
Considering the starting point of the last election they’re actually doing far better at this point than I expected.
But then I also didn’t think the governments handling of the pandemic would lead to some sort of overnight political epiphany. I’ve lived most of my life in Tory heartlands, the mind set of “well, this government is shit but at least they’re not Labour” runs deep.
Can’t say as I’m seeing anyone being “excited” mind you! Who are you perceiving as such?
And, if so, what would it look like excluding Scotland?
Given how low labour are polling in Scotland I doubt there would be any significant difference as labour and tory are only going to get a couple of seats each in Scotland
And, if so, what would it look like excluding Scotland?
Given how low labour are polling in Scotland I doubt there would be any significant difference as labour and tory are only going to get a couple of seats each in Scotland
'A New Leadership' will be abbreviated. It sounds a bit fascist/futurist, but 'Forward to a New Leadership' projects professionalism, electability and a clerical revolution that will get a grip on the voters in 4 years time. That's just what we need in a crisis of health, jobs and housing. I can't wait.
Just saw the Marr interview
Job done in terms of refusing to be drawn on covid and Brexit but clearly evasive and highly polished spin. I can't see how he can play it any other way so good result. But 'im not boris' is a very low bar
When it comes to Brexit might as well just say 'no comment'. He was invited to side with EU on state aid but didn't take the bait
Flashes of irritation reminded me of Corbyn, but that could just've been Marr needling him
It’s pretty obvious that the Tory’s only line of attack with Starmer is to try and draw him into the flag-waving culture war they’ve been stoking.
I can imagine that It’s causing some pretty serious frustration in Cummings ‘Mission Control’ that he still refuses to take the bait.
He’s rightly not getting drawn on Brexit itself, but criticising Johnson’s previously ‘oven ready’ deal, and the present shambles.
Come ‘No Deal’ in January, things are going to look very different, and with Boris and chums in full ownership of the ensuing chaos, Labour can then take a different approach
Anyone watching Annelise Dodds? I see now why Kier was so keen on her, she makes him look very exciting and charismatic. Labour need to do better than this for the second most important post in the shadow cabinet.
Come ‘No Deal’ in January, things are going to look very different, and with Boris and chums in full ownership of the ensuing chaos, Labour can then take a different approach
even with a deal there will still be a backlog & queues of lorries by mid Jan
(and now it looks like Johnsons WA reneging was just a horrendously misjudged attempt at leverage- I think johnson will be desperate to do a deal)
Labour need to do better than this for the second most important post in the shadow cabinet.
Is she any good at the chancellor work as opposed to acting exciting?
Would have thought that would be more important. We are currently suffering from having an exciting and charismatic person in charge. Turns out doesnt always overlap with competence.
Labour need to do better than this for the second most important post in the shadow cabinet.
Sober, serious man trying to build an air of competence appoints Sober, serious woman trying to build an air of competence
Maybe she could come down a zipwire, waving some flags?
Or have a Special Advisor come up with some catchy three word slogans?
He’s rightly not getting drawn on Brexit itself, but criticising Johnson’s previously ‘oven ready’ deal, and the present shambles.
I absolutely agree that the Labour leader shouldn't be talking about Brexit itself, and am pleased that you eventually reached the same conclusion.
Maybe she could come down a zipwire, waving some flags?
He doesn't need gimmicks, but he does need people in his shadow cabinet who people recognise and know a little about what they stand for. This goes for shadow chancellor more than any other post. I take an unhealthy interest in politics and yet I have absolutely no idea where Dodds stands on the pressing issues of the day. Assuming Boris isn't packed off to retirement she's going to be up against Sunak in the runup to the next election which quite frankly is going to be a no-contest.
Did you listen to his speech then? A weird one because obviously it's not really a conference speech, so difficult to gauge
One thing that did seem to be stressed was the need for a reality intrusion in certain elements within the party and an end to the 'we won the argument' tosh
That can only be a good thing
I listened but it didn't really tell me anything that could inform my vote.
I wasn't expecting it to though and don't see why it ever would 4 years out of the next election.
It did tell me that Labour are universally crap at getting elected though. 3 election winners in 75 years? Didn't realise it was that bad.
I also think, that with the clear anti-nationalist agenda, they will struggle to see anything but a minority Labour government in the near future. They won't give the SNP their independence vote and doubt they will get a coalition majority without it.
I take an unhealthy interest in politics and yet I have absolutely no idea where Dodds stands on the pressing issues of the day.
She's written plenty... and her approach seems spot on when you read her words. But most people will see/hear her... not read her words... and she clearly is not proficient at this side of politics... so needs removing/replacing whenever it is safe to do so without it turning into a distraction in the media. Compare her with Miliband (sorry again for not voting for him) and Rayner in recent months... she may well have what it takes to run the treasury... but that isn't where we are... Labour need to connect with the public... she can't do that.
I didn't listen to the speech preferring to watch the guardian live blog. From what I can see and from the reactions I think he pitched it about right.
Remeber its the folk who vote / voted tory he needs to reach by and large. Most lefties even if they think he is not radical enough will still vote labour and the other thing he really needs to do is not give the tories propaganda arm any chink in his armour - hence "being proud" of things like his peerage and his patriotism
It seems like he's prepared to get a bit less timid and do what the Torys do... personal attacks.
He's bang on with his point about Boris's (lack of) character, and he's absolutely right to make a direct comparison with his own record.
And Boris being so thin-skinned will hate this absolutely correct portrayal of him
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1308321550664429568?s=20
she may well have what it takes to run the treasury… but that isn’t where we are… Labour need to connect with the public… she can’t do that.
This absolutely. I worry that Starmer appointed her to ensure he wouldn't be overshadowed. I understand that but labour needs to be firing on all cylinders and shadow chancellor is too important a post to have a shrinking violent in it. It doesn't need to be someone as aggressive as McDonnell or Brown, but they at least need to have some public presence. Dodds is completely anonymous.
I think in the current climate only the main players will get any significant airtime - so half a dozen cabinet ministers, Starmer and the leaders of the devolved parliaments. there is so much news and reaction to get from them that the news media do not need to go looking for people to get quotes from
I worry that Starmer appointed her to ensure he wouldn’t be overshadowed.
Not a worry of mine as I don't think that would be the case at all. I do however agree that she doesn't have what it takes publicly and needs to be quietly replaced.
The difficult bit for Starmer is going to be redefining 'patriotism' without putting off his Red Wall Racists that he needs back. I suspect 'patriotism' is usually communicated via a headbutt in their worldview.
Daz - getting away from the subject of Anneliese Dodds, what did you think of Starmers speech?
Sir Keir Starmer proclaimed himself Labour’s ‘new leadership’, in his first conference speech this morning.
But nothing could be further from reality. Sir Keir’s leadership is just more of the same old Labour.
He’s advanced Corbyn’s far-left economic plans and continually shown he doesn’t respect the views of ordinary people on crime, immigration and regaining our independence now we’ve left the EU.
Prress release from the tories - this is why Starmer simply cannot do what us lefties want - his only defense against this sort of attack is to not give a hint. Gsalling tho it is its the reality given our right wing press>
By doing what he has done in the sppech he simply makes this sort of attack look rediculous and takes all the sting out of it.
The tediously predictable response from Momentum couldn't possibly be more tediously Momentumesque. That certainly won't do Starmer any harm. Quite the reverse.
And, seriously.... slogans and platitudes? Good to see them addressing things with their normal understanding of irony and self-awareness 😀
https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1308352623062462464?s=20
Does anyone know which parts of his speech weren't showing solidarity with the working class? Is Scattergood really just upset that Starmer is seeking to distance the party from the past, and making it clear that he and his choice of front bench are not in politics to be the eternal opposition?
Beats me.
Momentum have got pissy simply because they don't have a leader who likes them.
It feels like momentum response was written before the speech.
If they really wanted to damage Starmer they should give him their full backing 🙂
I mean the Tories must just love it. The 1922 committee generally toes the party line.
Labour, well, Momentum are just a right big old help to the whole effort, aren't they.
In amongst their usual foot-stomping tantrums, they keep gobbing off about splitting from the party and forming their own
I wish they bloody would
There's no one single thing that would restore the credibility of the labour party more. The bearded one could march them all off into political oblivion to make placards and sign online petitions for ever more
Daz – getting away from the subject of Anneliese Dodds, what did you think of Starmers speech?
Was in a meeting this morning so not seen or read it yet hence the lack of comment. Were there any clues about policy? I get that he's concentrating on differentiating himself from Corbyn, but at some point he's going to have to move on and start talking about real stuff. As far as conference speeches go this is going to be the most inconsequential so he could have said anything he liked, and I don't know why momentum felt compelled to respond.
I did see something about a personal attack on Johnson, which is a very good thing IMO. Labour have always been far too timid on this stuff, they need to get dirty, and play the tories at their own game. It's one area where I never agreed with Corbyn and his highminded 'no personal attacks' pacifism.
Were there any clues about policy?
Mate, we're in the middle of a pandemic and ploughing towards a no deal brexit, both of which are going to leave the economy in tatters and fundamentally change the nature of our society. And we're 4 years away from an election
If there were ever a time to absolutely not commit to any specific policies, then this is the dictionary definition of it. Everything is fluid right now in a way this countries economics and politics have never been in peacetime.
and I don’t know why momentum felt compelled to respond
Because they just can't help themselves. Its what they do. Wave their placards from the sidelines while Tweeting about it to their echo chambers
Specifying policies now would be bonkers
If there were ever a time to absolutely not commit to any specific policies, then this is the dictionary definition of it
Oh I agree, but there is room to signal a direction. Even just an affirmation of his leadership campaign promise to maintain the radical policy agenda would be enough. Climate change hasn't gone away, inequality hasn't gone away, our disfunctional and unfair electoral system hasn't gone away. These all need new solutions where the tired old approach of tax and spend tinkering has failed. Even with covid and brexit, he should be able to say something about these.
Even just an affirmation of his leadership campaign promise to maintain the radical policy agenda would be enough.
I've asked you repeatedly about this. From what I've seen he hasn't made the slightest indication that he intends to jettison the more 'radical' policy agenda. And let's be honest, it would be easy enough for him to do so
But he hasn't
Or am I missing something?
Oof, the introduction
From what I’ve seen he hasn’t made the slightest indication that he intends to jettison the more ‘radical’ policy agenda.
That's quite a lot different from actually offering up any kind of vision for the future though isn't it. I mean 'I'm not actively evil and incompetent like the current lot' is enough for me but it's not very inspiring is it.
Even just an affirmation of his leadership campaign promise to maintain the radical policy agenda would be enough.
Gives easy ammo to the tory press and thus would be stupid to do
i say again - he needs to reach the people who voted tory not the lefties
From what I’ve seen he hasn’t made the slightest indication that he intends to jettison the more ‘radical’ policy agenda.
Well I guess many, including myself, are probably looking at what he's not saying than what he is. Maybe that's unfair and perhaps a little paranoid but given the history of the labour party and the fact that its centrist wing is represented by some pretty divisive and self-serving characters it's not entirely surprising. It wouldn't take much to get a lot of the sceptics on side.
perhaps a little paranoid
Yep. Stop looking for things that aren't there. He is not running an election campaign, he is trying to get a party back together that looks like it could actually get elected.
our disfunctional and unfair electoral system hasn’t gone away
As someone who thinks that our voting system is at the heart of much all of our current problems... I think Starmer should go no where near that as a talking point right now... there is no quicker way of turning away people who think Labour is a party for discussing ideas, rather than fixing the problems in their day to day existence.
Liking the new Britain First look.
https://twitter.com/AngelaRayner/status/1308364582369533954?s=09
(jokes aside they've got to do something to speak to us red-wallers)
So this is how they're going to reconnect with the 'working class vote' - try and look a bit Brexit-y/racist without actually going there.
It means wanting a child's future to be determined by their potential
How about everyone having a decent future regardless of their 'potential'?
The red flag was dropped for the red rose back in the day for a reason.
Liking the new Britain First look.
To be fair, it's just an update on the existing one
[img] 
[/img]
I've been slacking on my forum photoshop duties of late 😀
Fidal
Kier
You didn't go to Sixth Form did you? 😉
I wonder if the way they've minimised the saltire is prophetic.
You didn’t go to Sixth Form did you?
I'm barely literate. Why do you think I draw pictures 😀
I've edited it though.
Rone confusing patriotism with nationalism. Patriots do their thing from within on their own terms, nationalists by command from the top down. Choose carefully.
"I want this to be the best country to grow up in and the best country to grow old in"
Make Britain Great again?
sandwich confusing blood and soil nationalism with civic nationalism 😉
I think it says "we'll spend on education and social care" in a non-gammon/magic money tree triggering way. 🤷🏻♂️
“a country that embodies the values I hold dear. Decency, fairness, opportunity, compassion and security”
What no motherhood or apple pie?
Can you explain what you’re getting at Bill?
Can you explain what you’re getting at Bill?
It's shorthand for an appeal to traditional values that no-one could reasonably disagree with. Arguing for security and fairness is such an example as no-one is campaigning for insecurity and unfairness.
This is a preparation for a general election when we can win that general election and produce decency and real opportunity for everyone in our society," JC 2016, pls note no apple pie.
Cheers Ransos
Apple pie is a bourgeois construct
PM, it's so bland and feeble it makes John Major look charismatic.
Apple pie is pre-bourgeois, the first recipe being written up by Chaucer in 1381 in (anti-elitist) vernacular English.
If Keir Starmer insists on going down the vomit-inducing 'I love my country' route, instead of reaching for the rose-tinted imperialist dog whistle, he'd be far better off highlighting how the british working class were far ahead of their time in challenging capital and winning concessions like trade union recognition, suffrage for women and working men, better working conditions, the weekend and a whole host of other things which the working class had to fight and suffer for. Anyone think he'll do that? I doubt it.
he’d be far better off highlighting how the british working class were far ahead of their time in challenging capital and winning concessions like trade union recognition, suffrage for women and working men, better working conditions, the weekend and a whole host of other things which the working class had to fight and suffer for. Anyone think he’ll do that?
too high a risk of Billy Brag setting that to music.
If Keir Starmer insists on going down the vomit-inducing ‘I love my country’ route
You can't have it both ways.
You're the one always banging on about the working classes being a bunch of unconstructed flag-waving Neanderthals, so when the labour party does something to try and win their votes (and patriotism does not automatically equal nationalism or racism, before you start) then you slag him off for that.
With that attitude you've just neatly summed up why the Corbynite left never ever stood the remotest chance of being elected in this country.
Clearly theres a massive chunk of the countries population who's votes are somehow unworthy, sullied and obviously beneath you and your superior, enlightened middle class metropolitan values. Let them take their filthy ballot papers somewhere else
Oh look... they did
Nationalism was a concern for self-determination hence the American Revolution etc and more recently, anti-colonialism/imperialism. Patriotism is about defending the status quo and all the pageantry of conservatism and inequality.
Wrapping himself in the flag is a canny and necessary move by Starmer. They have to reclaim 'patriotism' from the Right even if it's toxicity lead to Brexit. Otherwise the culture war card will forever be deployed by the Right, to devastating effect
It's a necessary first step to becoming electable IMHO although the have to be careful but hopefully their 'metropolitan liberal elite' base will get their heads round it
It's why 'Best for Britain' the pro remain campaign group use their union jack branding. Why should the Right have exclusive dibs on pulling this top trump, pardon the pun, card?
Actually Britain were woefully behind on suffrage for women. NZ was first in 1893. Suffrage was not extended to all women in UK until 1928.
It took a good war and women doing the jobs at home to make real progress.
patriotism is about loving your country.
nationalism is about hating everyone elses.
Arguing for security and fairness is such an example as no-one is campaigning for insecurity and unfairness.
They may not have it in their campaign but the Tory party are very good at delivering insecurity and unfairness, which is his point.
They could tie nationalizing shit with nationalism.
Do we want the french/German/Chinese/yanks profiting off our water/ railways/ energy/ Nhs ?
They may not have it in their campaign but the Tory party are very good at delivering insecurity and unfairness, which is his point.
Nah, it's just a naked grab for votes by referencing values perceived to be held as important by Tory voters. See also "tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime" and the symbolic adoption of the British bulldog. I don't have a problem with it in and of itself, but as I've said before, at some point he's going to have to outline his vision and support it with a bit more than platitudes.
Do keep up.
He just needs some punchy 3 word slogans
Thats what wins elections nowadays
Do keep up.
He just needs some punchy 3 word slogans
Thats what wins elections nowadays
Ah yes.
Education, education, education.
I’m Not Boris.
Thank god we have binners here to give us the authentic voice of working class labour voters, speaking as a graphic designer who lives in Ramsbottom.
2000th Post Done?
They may not have it in their campaign but the Tory party are very good at delivering insecurity and unfairness, which is his point.
Keep the rats in the sack fighting amongst themselves. That way they are too busy scrabbling over each other to realise that a better idea might be a concerted attack on the sack itself.
Thank god we have binners here to give us the authentic voice of working class labour voters, speaking as a graphic designer who lives in Ramsbottom.
To be fair, the last election was won by what amounts to a semi scripted reality show character with 3 word slogans and a prediliction for vodka on his cornflakes.
And ‘Binners’ is my working class alter-ego I use to post on’t’internet. Graphic Designer seemed like something a poor person would do. A sort of modernist coal miner.
I actually own a grouse shooting moor and live in a huge stately pile. I’m coining it in at the moment 😃
It may be a slow change… but it’s definitely going the right way…
https://twitter.com/electionmapsuk/status/1309931542614093826?s=21
I’d say that swinging a -26 point result to a +3 in 6 months is pretty ****ing impressive, but I await my comrades correcting me and informing us all that it’s a betrayal of the socialist future and actually a terrible, terrible thing that the entire labour movement should be absolutely ashamed of
It may be a slow change… but it’s definitely going the right way…
I think it's fine at this stage, but I can well imagine the reaction if the previous leader was "only" managing neck-and-neck with the blond buffoon.