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want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented.
Not just the centrists.
If you think that is achievable in four years then you need to lay off of whatever you are on.
There is constant infighting in the Labour Party and briefing from both sides.
It's incredibly annoying when you try to rise above it and concentrate on winning an election.
The infighting comes from those that see their opinions and their brand of Labour politics as more important than the people who suffer from ongoing Tory govt. It's also a noisy minority of the party amplified through social media as well.
Most members just want to unite around a broad left agenda and policies - social and economic justice, climate change action - and winning an election.
as “wanting the entire world to change”?
The posters been active for quite a while now, I’d reasonably assume its cumulative rather than singular.
I want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented. Not just the centrists.
How? What would you do to make this happen?
There is constant infighting in the Labour Party and briefing from both sides.
This. It's just crazy.
Most members just want to unite around a broad left agenda and policies – social and economic justice, climate change action – and winning an election.
I'm not a Labour member but that sums it up for me.
Basically I will willingly put my shoulder to the wheel and pay my taxes if it contributes towards a society where public services are fit for purpose and those in need of help are helped.
This is an easy message to sell too. The cost of Brexit is so large now, that it actually represents a tangible number to every working person. My taxes are going towards something that is going to damage my country irreparably. You could argue that about our 'mission' in Afghanistan or similar, of course. But Brexit really is the most spectacular waste of money, credibility, potential, effort you could imagine.
When the time is right I expect some Labour campaigning to be along the lines of "This Tory Brexit has so far cost every man, woman and child in this country £x and what has it delivered?"
They will need to couch it gently - "The notions behind Brexit like sovrunty and standing on our own feet are things that we believe in too".
There is also plenty of room for chastened Leavers to row back to.
"Yes, I did vote to Leave, but it was not with No Deal chaos in mind. I would have accepted a Norway+".
There is no point in trying to push for whether they know the first thing about what that actually means. There will be positions to retreat to and save a bit of face. And 'face' is what prevents many Leavers admitting they were sold a pup.
Nudge, nudge, nudge, oh..... critical mass...
but could come under pressure from any Lib Dem revival
Thanks for the belly laugh! Not going to happen. And I was a LibDem member once. In England at the next election it’ll be a two horse race more than ever before… that can be either hard right vs hard left… or it can be hard right vs left leaning. I’m voting the same way whichever path Labour takes… but we all know which is more likely to lead to getting the hard right out of office.
Most members just want to unite around a broad left agenda and policies – social and economic justice, climate change action – and winning an election.
That is all I want. No party is ever going to represent exactly what I want down to each policy but that is just something that needs to be accepted and the best fit is what you go for. By not voting for the closest fit because of this or that is not helping anyone.
Same here. My politics are more Corbyn than Starmer… I still back unilateralism when it comes to getting rid of nukes, for example… but I want a better government, that will serve everyone, and who enough people will vote for… not an opposition that perfectly matches my own policy desires, because not enough people agree with me on so many issues, and I can accept that without seeing those I need to compromise with as the ‘enemy’, or ‘red Tories’, or ‘centrists’, or ‘establishment stooges’.
If a Labour leader can’t get himself nearly unequivocal support from the Guardian, where can they?
Socialist Worker?
Razzle?
The Guardian supported the lib Dems in 2010. Do you think this was because Gordon Brown was too left wing?
The Guardian supported the lib Dems in 2010. Do you think this was because Gordon Brown was too left wing?
It won't be a problem next time around, the Toxic Tory Reverse Midas Touch has seen to that.
At that point I seem to remember that the Libdems were perceived, in many ways, to the left of Labour.
johnx2
Free Member
I want a functioning political system which ensures that all members of society are represented. Not just the centrists.
How? What would you do to make this happen?
Also note.
No answer to that question.
Unsurprisingly.
Labour:
Give. Me. A. Political. Home.
Ahahahaha! FFS man you had one. Everything you describe, from the lack of a pension pot to a wife working for the NHS would have been better off under a labour govt and the policies they were proposing. But you couldn't support that because you didn't like the leader and some of his supporters. Instead you want them to pander to the idiots in the centre who can't see past the next Daily Mail headline who will ensure that those policies which would benefit you are diluted or got rid of altogether. You are exactly the sort of person who has most to gain from the policies which were proposed by labour in the last election.
Here is my "pie in the sky" solution to the present political mess.
At the next election (assuming the UK still exists in 4 years time) Labour would field no candidates in Scotland and the Lib Dems and Greens etc would field no candidates in England/Wales. Why would they agree to that? Basically, have an agreement in place that should the SNP and Labour gain enough seats together to be able to form a coalition to govern, then they will push through a change to the voting system to one of PR. Effectively the election would be a referendum on this one topic, and if they were able to form a government then this would be the sole purpose of the government. Once legislation is passed to update our antiquated FPTP system, then a new election can be called under the new PR system. At this point you will see a reorganisation of traditional parties and the emergence of new ones (Momentum has a nice ring to it!), and a realistic chance of sensible coalition government where far less people feel disenfranchised as with the current shit show.
Basically needs 50% of the population of England and Wales (can probably count on the SNP to deliver) to not vote for the Cons.
Any chance?
Nah
Like I said. Pie in the sky.
If it is not done now though with the help of the SNP then it may well be too late to ever do it again if Scotland does leave the Union.
Ahahahaha! FFS man you had one. Everything you describe, from the lack of a pension pot to a wife working for the NHS would have been better off under a labour govt and the policies they were proposing. But you couldn’t support that because you didn’t like the leader and some of his supporters. Instead you want them to pander to the idiots in the centre who can’t see past the next Daily Mail headline who will ensure that those policies which would benefit you are diluted or got rid of altogether. You are exactly the sort of person who has most to gain from the policies which were proposed by labour in the last election.
I voted Labour in the last election, chump. Ahahahaha!
I encouraged anyone I know who would listen to me to vote tactically, and gave them the tools to do so. If they couldn't be arsed to use the online stuff I asked them to please vote Labour. No matter how hard they had to hold their nose.
As I said, it isn't me you've got to convince. But you keep going if it makes you feel like the big man. That would be typical of you. Fight the people who are already on your side because you are too gutless to take on the real enemy.
If only everyone was as brave as you Danny! Fighting battles from behind your keyboard every day /swoon
Tories & Labour will never go for PR - too selfish. PR is the silver bullet. We need Farage to get on it.
The penny needs to drop with labour that the only chance they'll ever govern again is as the largest party in a coalition brought about by PR. I'm assuming the SNP will have gone. So 80/10/10 labour /lib Dems / green. Sounds pretty sweet. Although a Laila Moran led lib Dems would fit in better there
If only everyone was as brave as you Danny! Fighting battles from behind your keyboard every day /swoon
You keep digging at me, fella. I voted Labour, remember. I'm already on your side. Maybe I'm not in your faction (PFJ or JPF?), but I'm already with you. Presumably I'm not truly worthy because my party number isn't single digit. But that's ok.
Looking on the bright side, the longer you keep arguing with people who are already on your side the longer you put off having to address the issues that would make Labour electable to enough people to actually be elected.
The bit that is often missed about the PFJ/JPF scenes in Life of Brian is how Reg and his mates shit themselves at the first sign of the real enemy. Much more comfortable arguing amongst themselves. Don't have to face reality that way.
Ahahahaha! FFS man you had one. Everything you describe, from the lack of a pension pot to a wife working for the NHS would have been better off under a labour govt and the policies they were proposing. But you couldn’t support that because you didn’t like the leader and some of his supporters. Instead you want them to pander to the idiots in the centre who can’t see past the next Daily Mail headline who will ensure that those policies which would benefit you are diluted or got rid of altogether. You are exactly the sort of person who has most to gain from the policies which were proposed by labour in the last election.
I can’t really understand where the assumptions in this post come from.
Do you really judge everyone not aligning with your view of the left as a Daily Mailer?
Do you really judge everyone not aligning with your view of the left as a Daily Mailer?
Yes he does.
Ideological purity. It is the future. You just have to wish it, then the electorate comes to you.
I believe the phrase is "Build it and they will come". Didn't work the first 2 times and was actually getting worse each time with more seats lost but keep trying, it will surely work one day.
Here's a thought, maybe it is not want the majority of people actually want.
It won’t be a problem next time around, the Toxic Tory Reverse Midas Touch has seen to that.
At that point I seem to remember that the Libdems were perceived, in many ways, to the left of Labour.
Ah, so the Guardian supported the Lib Dems in 2010 because Nick Clegg was more left wing than Gordon Brown. Not that its support for Labour is far from guaranteed, and you were talking cobblers.
If you carry on like this, you will rapidly run out of feet to shoot.
And in one page of the Internet it all becomes revealed why the Tory party has been so successful, It's not because everyone thinks they will do such a fantastic job, it's because the Left can't stop squabbling amongst themselves.
Still more interested in being Trots and Tankies after all these years...idiots
Still more interested in being Trots and Tankies after all these years…idiots
It's just a thought, but perhaps lay off the sub-binners name calling if you want to take the moral high ground.
I was just about to suggest the same as welshfarmer. I want labour to get PR in so we can finally vote how we feel not how we least dislike. I'd be tempted to suggest the best way is to go full cynical Tory lite on the manifesto to win the GE and then just sneak in a switch to PR followed by a move back to the left. But just as unlikely to happen as the previous suggestion, oh well.
but perhaps lay off the sub-binners name calling
You really are in love with him, aren't you? He's metaphorically pulling your pigtails in the playground and running away...
Everything you need to know about Trots and Tankies
Anyway ransos, seeing as you clearly don't want the votes of anyone vaguely centrist I thought you might like to lay out your plans for retrieving your Red Wall Racists from Cummings's lot.
Or is it more 'build it and they will come' tosh?
The Guardian has not supported labour for a long time. It a liberal paper
You really are in love with him, aren’t you? He’s metaphorically pulling your pigtails in the playground and running away…
To be honest, I only come on here nowadays for the barely-suppressed, homoerotic sexual tension
To be honest, I only come on here nowadays for the barely-suppressed, homoerotic sexual tension
Standing naked in a circle reciting Das Kapital from memory until someone goes wrong? A sharp thwack with a rolled up copy of Socialist Worker and it is the next person's go.
A bit like a public school initiation 'ragging' but with matching overalls to be worn after.
Anyway ransos, seeing as you clearly don’t want the votes of anyone vaguely centrist I thought you might like to lay out your plans for retrieving your Red Wall Racists from Cummings’s lot.
Or is it more ‘build it and they will come’ tosh?
It's not clear to me why you wish to ascribe views to me that I do not hold. Perhaps it's to deflect attention away from your demonstrably false statements.
You really are in love with him, aren’t you? He’s metaphorically pulling your pigtails in the playground and running away…
Name calling it is, then. Suit yourself, but it does undermine your attempt at the high ground.
The left really is ****ed
The left really is ****ed
Yup.
The left really is ****ed
It is certainly a difficult club to get into. There are exclusive golf clubs that are less elitist. Ironic really.
Brilliant if it is exclusivity you are after, but not so good if you are trying to win general elections.
Nowt as queer as folk.
The Guardian supported the lib Dems in 2010.
There was a stat doing the rounds a while back that said that, despite its usual editorial stance and employment of Owen Jones and the former anonymous Labour source who’s dad ran the BBC, if Guardian readers are members of a political party, it’s most likely to be the Lib Dems.
Certainly true here on n=1…
So there are only actually 122 Guardian readers?
No wonder they’re in financial difficulties
Deleted
It is certainly a difficult club to get into. There are exclusive golf clubs that are less elitist. Ironic really.
And today's award for non sequitur goes to...
And today’s award for non sequitur goes to…
How are you getting those Red Wall Racists back, then?
You don't want centrists, so you've got to do something.
You're not going to get all Brexity for them are you?
How are you getting those Red Wall Racists back, then?
You don’t want centrists, so you’ve got to do something.
You’re not going to get all Brexity for them are you?
It’s not clear to me why you wish to ascribe views to me that I do not hold. Perhaps it’s to deflect attention away from your demonstrably false statements.
It’s not clear to me why you wish to ascribe views to me that I do not hold. Perhaps it’s to deflect attention away from your demonstrably false statements.
Yawn.
No idea, then.
No attempt to answer the question.
Keep doing what you are doing, political parties need people to waive the banners. I'd give the strategy stuff a miss, though. For the greater good, like.
Meanwhile, I am a Labour voter for life it would seem. Cannot vote Tory ever after what they have done in the last 4.5 years. There is no alternative. To win an election, though, you need to do better than that. And you have to want to try.
I’ve said this before on countless posts. We are being governed by a privately educated political elite be it left wing, right wing, centrist so called liberal, what ever you want to call it. They control the government either way. It swings one way then the next, back and forwards. Does anything really change over the long term. No. If we want real change we need to change the way our voting system works and how we rule and govern. It won’t happen because that would mean giving power back to the people and that’s not what these political parties want. We are all just plebs in their little power plays. If I had my way anything North of the Humber would join with Scotland because labour have done sweet F@ for the North for the last 50 yrs other than count on their vote in every GE other than the last one! At least with the Tories you know they don’t give a sh!t about the North.
Yep agreed.
As for the Left being a difficult club to get in to?
HTH
I've been a member of both!
Yawn.
No idea, then.
Congratulations! You've taken an important first step on the path to self-awareness.
Evening sweet cheeks comrade. Love the new hat. Have you been away? You’ve got a good colour. The coat really suits you. Very .... what would you call it?.... retro communist chic?
Anyway..... How’s the revolution panning out? Going well, I hope.
Evening sweet cheeks comrade. Love the new hat. Have you been away?
Like a moth to a flame.
How long will it be until your next flounce? Here's what you said last time:
So from here on in, I’m out
You just want to flounce for you, don’t you?
Cheeky.
Trawling through months old posts of mine? Bless you. You are sweet. Though it’s all a bit stalkerish, admittedly, but I hear having your own internet stalker is frightfully fashionable nowadays
I feel like Kim Katdashian 😃
Anyway….. How’s the revolution panning out? Going well, I hope.
Mind you - you thought Rory Tory was going to save us at one point.
The mockery and conflation of socialism and communism - whilst the country was bailed out the Government...
You just want to flounce for you, don’t you?
No flounce, then? I guess you don't mean what you say.
Yes but we all love those images don't we. May be good to have something that wasn't from the 70's but I suppose when there is only a set of 5 to choose from that is all we can expect.
Change of subject from the weekend banter/petulance...
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2020/sep/14/bt-broadband-bills-could-reach-100000-for-rural-users
Corbyn's universally derided free broadband policy is looking quite attractive now. I wonder if Starmer has the balls to bring it back? I know it's early to be talking policies, but in the light of covid and this news he could go a long way to reassuring his doubters on the left by supporting this in some form.
The Guardian are reporting that Kier is having to self isolate as someone in his household has symptoms.
Will anyone notice?
Serious question to those who pour scorn on Starmer for not being effective: can you give historical examples of effective opposition?
Serious question to those who pour scorn on Starmer for not being effective: can you give historical examples of effective opposition?
I don't know who's been pouring scorn on Starmer: I think a few of us believe him to be an effective manager but feel that the jury is out in terms of his policy direction. Regarding historical opposition, there's loads of examples, surely. Any opposition forcing a government into calling an election, or reversing a policy decision.
Corbyn’s universally derided free broadband policy is looking quite attractive now. I wonder if Starmer has the balls to bring it back?
Starmer said that he supported existing Labour policy, didn't he? We'll see.
Regarding historical opposition, there’s loads of examples, surely. Any opposition forcing a government into calling an election, or reversing a policy decision.
Didn't the Corbyn opposition force an election? And then delivered a huge Tory majority?
Serious question to those who pour scorn on Starmer for not being effective: can you give historical examples of effective opposition?
Not sure of the relevance of historical examples. We are now in a time of a government visibly not caring (whereas they used to at least pretend) and certainly wouldn't reverse any decision based on opposition, however good the opposition was. Combined with the big majority they have thanks to the last Labour leader.
reassuring his doubters on the left
Who are you referring to here? If I were Keir, I would give up with dreamers like you and wouldn't be trying to reassure you, it is the country that I want to reassure (left or right) with a goal to winning an election with a set of fair policies that are clearly going to be more left than right.
If I were Keir, I would give up with dreamers like you and wouldn’t be trying to reassure you
Well aside from the fact that I'm far from a dreamer (honestly I've a whole bunch of dreamer policies I'd like implememnt but don't often mention them on here as I try to be a pragmatist), I mean the people like me who voted for him after he promised to unify the party and maintain the policy direction. It's all very saying the left can be ignored but if he doesn't want to spend the next 4 years fighting internal battles then it might be a good idea to focus more on his unity promise.
Didn’t the Corbyn opposition force an election? And then delivered a huge Tory majority?
On the surface, yes. But we don't think about it like that. We like to refer to it as 'winning the argument'
In much the same way as Fulham won the match against Arsenal on Saturday.
Didn’t the Corbyn opposition force an election?
Point of order. It wasn't Corbyn who forced an election. He wanted to leave Boris in place with no majority so that they could extract concessions from him on brexit, but the arch-remainer opposition parties had other ideas.
In much the same way as Fulham won the match against Arsenal on Saturday.
There you go again equating football to politics. It's almost as bad a metaphor as comparing a household budget to that of the governments.
There you go again equating football to politics. It’s almost as bad a metaphor as comparing a household budget to that of the governments.
Well.... not really. Both football matches and FPTP general elections are binary. You win, you lose or you draw.
Those are the three options available, There are no other variables. So trying to spin delivering a thumping great majority to your opposition and having your worst result for 85 years as 'winning the argument' is very much in the same ballpark as your average Jose Mourhino post-match interview, where you listen to it while thinking "have we just watched the same match?" 😀
It’s all very saying the left can be ignored but if he doesn’t want to spend the next 4 years fighting internal battles then it might be a good idea to focus more on his unity promise.
Who says he isn't focusing on his unity promise and if I was him I wouldn't be fighting internal battles. I would ensure that I didn't have to by having the correct people in the positions that matter and have visibility. What the low level dinosaurs are up to is not worth spending any time on.
Who says he isn’t focusing on his unity promise
I think his actions so far speak for themselves on this subject.
Didn’t the Corbyn opposition force an election? And then delivered a huge Tory majority?
Arguably he did in 2017. His catastrophic mistake in 2019 was to allow himself to be railroaded into it.
I think his actions so far speak for themselves on this subject.
What actions? Can you give me some specific examples
I can't see anything he's actually done or said that anyone but the most ardent tinfoil-hat-brigade would be remotely bothered about. Especially as by not doing the things you said he was going to do, and doing all the things you said he wouldn't, he's cut the 26 point Tory poll lead that Grandad bequeathed him down to nowt, in under 6 months.
What do you want? The moon on a stick?
Oh... erm...
😀
I can’t see anything he’s actually done or said that anyone but the most ardent tinfoil-hat-brigade would be remotely bothered about.
And therein lies the problem. One side think he's Tony Blair in disguise, the other thinks it can it can dismiss anyone asking any relevant questions about his real intentions as nutters and extremists.
Not sure of the relevance of historical examples. We are now in a time of a government visibly not caring (whereas they used to at least pretend) and certainly wouldn’t reverse any decision based on opposition, however good the opposition was.
This is what I'm getting at. It's very easy to criticise the opposition leader, when you're upset about your party being in opposition, but what would you have him actually do that would actually work?
Safe to assume that Starmer is a more competent and insightful political operator than say, binners 🙂
And therein lies the problem. One side think he’s Tony Blair in disguise, the other thinks it can it can dismiss anyone asking any relevant questions about his real intentions as nutters and extremists.
Maybe thats an advantage, rather than a problem?
Safe to assume that Starmer is a more competent and insightful political operator than say, binners
There are items of furniture that could easily pass that low water mark. I'd have fitted right in Corbyns cabinet with Richard Burgon 😀
I think his actions so far speak for themselves on this subject.
Do they. You are talking about internal in fighting, how do you know what has been done with that. You wouldn't see the actions.
Is that the second tied poll for voting intentions?
Starmer worried about Boris sorting out covid or Christmas might be lost...
Facile.
Is that the second tied poll for voting intentions.
Yes. (Opinium last month.)
How exciting it has become to see Labour level pegging in just two polls against these atrocities.
Is there a Seats projection for that poll?
And, if so, what would it look like excluding Scotland?
How exciting it has become to see Labour level pegging in just two polls against these atrocities.
Maybe we could get a bearded old 70’sthrowback with an allotment to get the Tory’s a 26 point lead back?
That’d be exciting, wouldn’t it?
binners, please...
We're trying to elevate the tone.
Do join in.
Binners, we all know perfectly well that if Corbyn was getting the exact results that Starmer is, you'd be screaming blue murder. Why not give it a rest eh? He's not leader any more. BUT HER EMAILS!