Corbyn wasn't much better than Starmer.
Both face the same problem - a right-wing media that batters anyone who falls out of line.
Starmer has gone down the Blair route of trying to court them.
Corbyn's tactic was to soak up abuse and basically hide - mumble a few words and disappear.
His views as a backbencher pretty much collapsed when he was in a position of power.
If he wasn't so lacking in political nous he would have realised that he was never going to be elected. And instead, used the time to find a successor, to build on grassroots success and deal with right-wing elements.
You could argue that Corbyn is worse than Starmer.
Starmer is a career politician doing what career politicians do.
Corbyn was a principled left-wing backbencher who somehow found himself as leader.
He had a unique opportunity to fundamentally change the direction of Labour and he utterly failed.
He had a unique opportunity to fundamentally change the direction of Labour and he utterly failed.
He was trying, and yes you could argue he should have gone further in pushing through democratic reforms and getting rid of the likes of Austin, Hodge etc. His biggest failure was the assumption/optimism that labour MPs on the right would put the party before their own ideology and interests. You'd think in the wake of 2017 they would have admitted they were wrong and got onboard, but no, they did exactly the opposite and pushed the AS nuclear button.
Christ the defeatism is ridiculous. Corbyn didn’t win tory votes off May, he gained votes from people who had stopped voting, and lib dems and other left leaning voters who supported fringe parties and swithced back to labour (I was one of them)
So what happened in 2019 then?
Did all those people stop voting again (doesn't appear so looking at turnout numbers) or switch back to the fringe parties (doesn't appear so looking at voting numbers)
And let's pretend they did do those things why was that?
Corbyn was still there in 2019, the policies were still there in 2019
(Clue, May had been swapped for Johnson)
So what happened in 2019 then?
Anti-semitism, 2nd referendum policy, and two years of labour's own MPs copying the tories by calling their leader a racist and terrorist sympathiser. The electorate could ignore the tories saying that stuff, because that's what they would do, but when people on your own side say it, they take notice. Combine that with Johnson's easy optimistic populism and it was a perfect storm.
Anti-semitism, 2nd referendum policy, and two years of labour’s own MPs copying the tories by calling their leader a racist and terrorist sympathiser. The electorate could ignore the tories saying that stuff, because that’s what they would do, but when people on your own side say it, they take notice. Combine that with Johnson’s easy optimistic populism and it was a perfect storm.
Agree with all of that, but would add a poorly-run campaign, with a manifesto which seemed to have a new commitment each week.
Anti-semitism, 2nd referendum policy, and two years of labour’s own MPs copying the tories by calling their leader a racist and terrorist sympathiser.
You seriously think the people who voted Labour in 2017 voted Tory in 2019 because of Anti-semitism and infighting. Those things were so important to the average voter (above the great policies they loved in 2017) that they switched to Tory.
If Starmzy loses at Batley with less votes than Corbyn, Corbyn will definitely have to resign.
You seriously think the people who voted Labour in 2017 voted Tory in 2019 because of Anti-semitism and infighting.
The brexit voters went tory because of the second ref policy, the rest just went back to not bothering. No one is going to vote for a party who's own MPs call their leader a 'f***ing racist'.
but would add a poorly-run campaign, with a manifesto which seemed to have a new commitment each week.
Agree, but I'd (strongly) argue the poor campaign and poorly communicated policies were a function of the siege-mentality that resulted from two years of labour MPs calling Corbyn and his supporters racists. Not even Barack Obama would have run a good campaign in that sort of environment.
You seriously think the people who voted Labour in 2017 voted Tory in 2019 because of Anti-semitism and infighting. Those things were so important to the average voter (above the great policies they loved in 2017) that they switched to Tory
You seriously think that a party riven with in-fighting isn't a turn-off to the electorate?
and two years of labour’s own MPs copying the tories by calling their leader a racist and terrorist sympathiser.
The view from inside the bunker....
Can you find us any specific examples of Labour MP's calling Jeremy Corbyn a racist and a terrorist sympathiser? Because I think that only exists in the minds of the type of people who get their 'news' from the Canary on Twitter
with a manifesto which seemed to have a new commitment each week.
A manifesto promise on the hour, every hour.
Can you find us any specific examples of Labour MP’s calling Jeremy Corbyn a racist
Binners have you got early onset alzheimers or something?
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/jeremy-corbyn-anti-semite-racist-labour-177905
You seriously think that a party riven with in-fighting isn’t a turn-off to the electorate?
[ Looks at the current situation ] You make a good point.
Anyway, Starmer is trying his own bit of football focussed popularism today... he's learned something from Johnson's team over the last year then... and, no, it won't work coming from him.
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1409791010259996674?s=20
Any other examples?
You honestly think that Margaret Hodge calling Grandad a racist resulted in the collapse of the labour vote?
99.9% of the electorate probably don't know who Margaret Hodge is.
And there's a lot more to the relationship between those two and that whole situation than her just calling him an antisemite
You seriously think that a party riven with in-fighting isn’t a turn-off to the electorate?
They voted one into power....
Can you find us any specific examples of Labour MP’s calling Jeremy Corbyn a racist and a terrorist sympathiser?
I think John Mann had robust views on his leaders character
You honestly think that Margaret Hodge calling Grandad a racist resulted in the collapse of the labour vote?
It was splashed all over the newspapers and tv news. I think you massively underestimate the impact of an MP using that sort of language against their own leader. And it wasn't just her, Austin, Mann et al, not to mention the tingers were all singing from the same hymn sheet, with the overt or tacit support of more prominent centrists like Mandelson and Blair et al. They were all on the news giving non-answers to the simple question of 'do you think Jeremy Corbyn is a racist?'. Why would you think that wouldn't cut through to the public? Because it clearly did, I seem to remember you and many others on here saying exactly the same, so clearly it wasn't a fringe issue that no one cared about.
Any other examples?
Let's look at what you said:
Can you find us any specific examples of Labour MP’s calling Jeremy Corbyn a racist and a terrorist sympathiser? Because I think that only exists in the minds of the type of people who get their ‘news’ from the Canary on Twitter
It's a pity that you're completely incapable of admitting when you're wrong. It reminds me of the time when you asked me to substantiate my claim that Starmer was abandoning his manifesto pledges. Having done so, your lack of grace was noteworthy.
They voted one into power….
Indeed
We've just watched a party effectively have a civil war, purge anyone regarded as even slightly moderate from its ranks and replace them with hardline Brexiteer nut-jobs who all appear to be utterly useless and they still got an absolutely mahoosive majority
Yet apparently we're meant to believe that a virtually unknown backbencher being howwid to Jewemy lost labour the election
Talk about clutching at straws
Why would you think that wouldn’t cut through to the public? Because it clearly did, I seem to remember you and many others on here saying exactly the same, so clearly it wasn’t a fringe issue that no one cared about.
I've never once said that I thought Grandad was either a racist or a terrorist sympathiser. I have accused him repeatedly of being an absolutely ****ing hopeless politician, an even worse leader and the greatest gift that Tory central office could ever have wished for.
And his legacy of both Brexit, which he supported, then enabled and the absolute unelectable shambles he left the labour party in will take years to repair, if it is in fact repairable at all.
But he 'won the argument' right?
We banging on about 2017 again? Quelle surprise!
It was you that brought it up binners. You decided, unprompted, to discuss UK politics of the last 5 years.
Even with only CSE maths I can work out that 2017 is in the last 5 years.
And you falsely claimed that support for the Tories has constantly increased since the referendum.
Since you don't write a column for the Daily Mail your inaccurate rants can be challenged. I reserve the right to do that 🙂
Because it is irrelevant.
– It was against May who gave Corbyn a run in how not to be a popular leader
– Brexit was not being dealt with well
May was pretty popular before the 2017 election and was forecast for a landslide before the campaign, likewise the election was way before the major Brexit skirmishes. (I personally think the Tories "lost" it with well intentioned hubris rather than the Labour "won" it.)
May was pretty popular before the 2017 election and was forecast for a landslide before the campaign, likewise the election was way before the major Brexit skirmishes. (I personally think the Tories “lost” it with well intentioned hubris rather than the Labour “won” it.)
She wasn't popular, the election exposed her weaknesses, she had a track record of being crap and the spotlight brought this out in technicolour the issue was that the alternative was worse and so people held their nose and put an X in the conservative box enough to keep him out of power
Such a shame that so much effort in these discussions comes back to the ‘my dad’s harder than your dad’ or ‘my dicks bigger than you dick’ need to win. Put that effort into changing society and we might just make a change worth making? Just a thought. Expecting incineration imminently…
If you remove the constant attention seeking posts by one particular individual, and the subsequent responses (seriously folks, why bother?), there is perhaps a glimmer of sensible discussion, but hey; this is UK politics right now. But the general mood that seems to be emanating from the Armresters on here, seems to be that the status quo isn't really too bad, and that deep down, they just want more of the same, but perhaps with a slightly less nasty taste. There certainly doesn't seem to be any real desire for actual societal change, as people keep offering up the likes of Andy Burnham* as Labour leader. Which, whilst momentarily amusing, speaks of a deeper malaise in UK politics, that there is simply no appetite within the Labour elite, for a proper fight. Gutless. So it begs the question; if you don't really want proper change, why not simply vote tory? That way, you can be on the 'winning' side, and get to hurl as much abuse at 'lefties' as you want. And we'll all be that much more divided than we already are.
*Burnham's 'blame the darkies for Covid', and 'it's all London's fault' type rhetoric may appeal greatly to a significant number of people, but Burnham's recent ranting about Scotland show that he's a small town boy with small town ideas, with no idea of how to actually unite people, and would be even more useless than Starmer. If such a thing were possible.
You seriously think that a party riven with in-fighting isn’t a turn-off to the electorate?
Yep, I don't think the majority of the electorate give a shit about political infighting and most would not even be aware of it as they are not interested.
You really need to remind your self that most people who vote are not really interested in politics even at a simple level and certainly have no interest in any details, i.e. the people arguing politics on these sorts of threads are very much in the minority.
She wasn’t popular,
Her approval rating in May 2017 was +20% which is very good. The actual calling of the election was one of her biggest mistakes as it was completely contrary to the image she had portrayed.
Yep, I don’t think the majority of the electorate give a shit about political infighting and most would not even be aware of it as they are not interested.
I couldn't agree less. All the infighting does is provide a gift to a hostile media who relentlessly report the party as a disorganized rabble. Without wishing to get into another Blair debate, one thing Labour PLP did very well in the mid 90s was to become a disciplined, on-message unit.
May was pretty popular before the 2017 election and was forecast for a landslide before the campaign, likewise the election was way before the major Brexit skirmishes. (I personally think the Tories “lost” it with well intentioned hubris rather than the Labour “won” it.)
Your point about May is demonstrably true and the forecasted landslide was precisely why she called for a GE. It's also true that Labour was handed a gift with her "death tax" blunder.
She committed the cardinal sin and made the most fundamental schoolboy error imaginable. She upset the boomers - the people who are all absolutely guaranteed to vote - and dared to question their divine sense of entitlement.
Only one small part of the worst election campaign anybody has ever run
Obviously an achievement eclipsed by Grandad next time out with the 'a-manifesto-promise-a-minute' campaign
All the infighting does is provide a gift to a hostile media who relentlessly report the party as a disorganized rabble.
Not just the "media"... see also anywhere the public are chatting... be it Social Media, pubs, or... internet forums.
It’s also true that Labour was handed a gift with her “death tax” blunder.
I was going to bring this up the other day, when the talk was about social care, and the funding of it. Johnson has learnt... keep talking up a bold vision/plan... never write anything down, because the details will scare off a fair proportion of voters. [ EDIT: I reckon... ] He's hoping Labour will formulate a plan for him, float it, see what sticks and what loses support... and then adapt and offer it up as his own.
*Burnham’s ‘blame the darkies for Covid’,
Really? Link please because I don't recall this
and ‘it’s all London’s fault’ type rhetoric may appeal greatly to a significant number of people,
highlighting the difference in lockdown support for Manchester and other areas compared to what was offered when London was locked down??
but Burnham’s recent ranting about Scotland show that he’s a small town boy with small town ideas, with no idea of how to actually unite people, and would be even more useless than Starmer. If such a thing were possible.
Population of Greater Manchester is 2.8 million, essentially greater than 50% of Scotland and significantly more diverse.
Burnham is going nowhere, he knows he can be reasonably popular in his current role (although the GMP issue could bring him down) or an labour leader and hated by the left, the right, the special interest groups etc
[ EDIT: I reckon… ] He’s hoping Labour will formulate a plan for him, float it, see what sticks and what loses support… and then adapt and offer it up as his own.
If it fixes it then what is the problem? Somebody needs to bring something forward
She committed the cardinal sin and made the most fundamental schoolboy error imaginable. She upset the boomers
So you do want to talk about the 2017 general election after all binners!
But only if the narrative conforms to your own narrow agenda.
So you are willing to claim that the Tories did badly, apparently Theresa May commited fundamental schoolboy errors, but you refuse to accept that Labour, who increased their vote by a third, did unexpectedly well.
Your biased loaded analysis of the 2017 election is only interested in how much the Tories lost support and not in the least bit interested in how much Labour gained support.
If manipulation of the truth was the only criteria required you would be guaranteed a place in the present Tory Cabinet binners.
If it fixes it then what is the problem?
Because once Johnson has taken off the “edges” that put his support at risk, what’s left won’t work but will help him get past the next election without losing power… after which it will be mostly dumped anyway (ministers surprised that plan they sold to electorate is utterly flawed in ways they were warned it was beforehand by expert “moaners”).
but you refuse to accept that Labour, who increased their vote by a third, did unexpectedly well.
Everything's relative.
'Not an absolute catastrophe' was the highest benchmark anyone dared hope for Grandad and co. Despite Mays best efforts, he still lost. Yet it was mystifyingly hailed as a victory, somewhat bizarrely.
The absolute catastrophe was merely postponed for two years, when the inevitable arrived as surely as night follows day
So you are willing to claim that the Tories did badly, apparently Theresa May commited fundamental schoolboy errors, but you refuse to accept that Labour, who increased their vote by a third, did unexpectedly well.
You need to understand that Corbyn only had failings, and any popularity was entirely attributable to the conservative party. The reverse would be true of Starmer, except that we don't yet have any popularity to report.
Your point about May is demonstrably true and the forecasted landslide was precisely why she called for a GE. It’s also true that Labour was handed a gift with her “death tax” blunder.
So to sum up;
Labour were handed a gift
Labour polices were well loved
Labour lost the election
Wow.
Everything’s relative.
It is indeed and you could say Starmer currently has a gift with such a mess of a Government, and if there was a general election now Labour would do worse than 2019.
Yet it was mystifyingly hailed as a victory, somewhat bizarrely.
I'll remind you yet again binners that all this kicked off with you quite falsely claiming that support for the Tories has consistently increased in the last 5 years since the EU referendum.
Quite why you made that false statement I can't be entirely sure. It's either a big fat porkie or you are simply confused.
I'm gonna to be generous, I'm that kinda guy, and assume that you were confused. Because there is other evidence of how confused you are.
Apart from believing that support for the Tories has consistently risen in the last 5 years since the referendum, you appear to have forgotten that 2017 is in the last 5 years and you apparently believe that the Tories won the 2017 general election.
No political party won the 2010 and 2017 general elections. Being in government is not proof of winning an election.
Otherwise the LibDems could quite rightly claim to have won the 2010 general election.
I don't know what A levels you studying for binners but judging by your confused political naivety I can only assume that none of them cover UK politics. Next time you are in your sixth college perhaps try to find someone who can explain things to you?
@bridges was this question directly for me or was it just a wider question to the assembled masses with too much time on their hands ;)? (just wondering as you quoted my post and not fully au fait with forum posting/responding nuances)
if you don’t really want proper change, why not simply vote tory?
I have no intention of voting tory, but there is absolutely no hope of me choosing Lab. I ahve this far in my pre and voting lifetime, considered the LP were closest to my views on a fairer society for all. The only evidence I see currently is that, like so many other politicians, they are only in it for themselves.*
Of all the LP folks I have heard speak recently, I have to say I have been more impressed with Kim Leadbitter than anyone else. Yes, I know she is only a candidate in the Bat & Spen bye election (that should be the name of a pub for discussing all things politics and the respective merits of the print media whilst drinking fine cask ale), but what she said actually sounded like she meant it. It was the kind of language that I think would resonate with people more widely, though possibly not in this election.
*There will be very worthy and notable exceptions to this sweeping generalisation I am aware, but their voices are not heard loudly enough. All my opinion, but I'm entitled to one.
She's a good candidate. It'll be very depressing if she loses, as not only would she make a fine MP, but so were both her predecessors, both in terms of not "being in it for themselves" and working to make a difference for their constituents. If after all that the voters think the answer is to vote Tory, or for Galloway to spite the Labour party leadership, then they're shitting in their own coffee. Just my opinion.
Really? Link please because I don’t recall this
Everything's been covered already in this thread. And you can do your own research. As for Manchester; the population of London is around 8 million, the South East region in total around 20 million. So nearly a 3rd of the entire population of the UK. Not a great idea to be openly hostile to such a large proportion of the electorate. Burnham simply isn't intelligent enough to understand that dog-whistle politics will only ever lead to more division, but then, he's not interested in much more than his own career, so I doubt that bothers him. He's a B team player, and nothing more.
Burnham is going nowhere
Oh yes. This much is evident. He's reached his level.
@bridges was this question directly for me or was it just a wider question to the assembled masses with too much time on their hands ;)? (just wondering as you quoted my post and not fully au fait with forum posting/responding nuances)
No; it's aimed at those who deludedly think that Labour sticking to the centre right, and ignoring all the 'lefties' and everyone else, will ever achieve any form of necessary societal change. They won't. So, if they're happy with that, they can simply vote tory and be on the 'winning side'. No need to worry about who the Labour leader will be, that way. Life would be much simpler for them.
Everything’s been covered already in this thread. And you can do your own research.
So you are making it up because you dislike Burnham?
Burnham simply isn’t intelligent enough to understand that dog-whistle politics will only ever lead to more division, but then, he’s not interested in much more than his own career, so I doubt that bothers him.
What was the dog whistle? He pointed out that GM and other areas were being locked down with worse support packages than those offered when national lockdowns applied and that there was a clear divide in the Gov approach.
I'm not a Burnham fan but please don't make up faults when there is so much good material available.
Sir Keir Starmer’s ratings have plunged to the same low level as Jeremy Corbyn’s at the same stage of his leadership, reveals an exclusive poll.
What a yardstick.
Half the public think Labour should change its leader before the next general election. Strikingly, 48 per cent of Labour supporters say they agree.
Only half?!
Sir Keir beats Mr Johnson for honesty (by 29 per cent to 22) but the Tory leader is ahead for patriotism (60 versus 38), for having lots of personality (61 to 16). Mr Johnson is seen as more out of touch (by 56 to 41 per cent).
Who needs trust when you have an abundance of patriotism?
Oh, lots of wibble in there about Burnham, despite the fact he's not an MP, and can't take over as leader, even if so many men do love him, and women want to be him.
Ultimately, it's the same old... Starmer doesn't entertain and doesn't tickle the self satisfied true Brit bone.
I think we will see the LP really start to regain some ground in opinion polls due to their latest policy of asking employers to let people go home early to watch the England football game. 🙄
Everything’s been covered already in this thread. And you can do your own research
Which is shorthand for ‘there aren’t any facts whatsoever to support the nonsense I’m spouting, but who needs facts when you have poetry? Peoples Poetry’
So to sum up;
Labour were handed a gift
Labour polices were well loved
Labour lost the electionWow.
Yes. What makes you say "wow"? As you're aware, the election was called because the tories had a 25 point lead and everyone predicted a landslide. In the event, they lost their overall majority.
Which is shorthand for ‘there aren’t any facts whatsoever to support the nonsense I’m spouting, but who needs facts when you have poetry? Peoples Poetry’
This from the man who makes crap up and hasn't the grace to admit it when the facts are presented. Irony much?
