The way the Labour party chooses its leaders does need to change.
The Labour Party is constantly changing the way it chooses its Leader.
Every few years they come up with new creative ways to guarantee that leftwing radicals don't get the position.
Obviously Ed Miliband screwed up when his particular sure proof idea, fully backed by Tony Blair, backfired so spectacularly.
Q: What's the difference between Binners and Dazh types?
A: About 18 months.
Starmer is dead. Long live Burnham.
And the whole process starts again.
The circle of life for Labour supporters.
I wouldn’t have thought Andy would be remotely interested in a return to Westminster any time soon.
The majority of the electorate in this country seems determined to play out this toxic experiment in nationalist populism, where everything is somebody else’s fault.
Whenever we get the next Labour government - and it looks like it’s going to be a while off - they’ll be tasked with repairing the damage. The circle of life?
For over 5 years now the labour party has been sat with its thumb up its arse being completely ineffectual.
The majority of the electorate in this country seems determined to play out this toxic experiment ...
Well if the majority of the electorate seem determined to play out this toxic experiment sitting with a thumb up its arse seems a reasonable position for the Labour Party.
everything is somebody else’s fault.
Quite.
More from that huffpost article that I missed earlier...
"One MP says: “He needs some drama, a big moment to show what he stands for. He can show leadership by saying there are some people in my party who believe things the country will never accept and I’m going to take them on. The country will understand that.”
"The key has got to be both a clean break with Corbyn and a positive vision of Britain, one frontbencher says. “Nobody I talk to tells me you know what ‘Labour has changed too much’. And when I ask Tory MPs privately what they fear most, they say it’s if we got rid of the loonies” they say.
“If we lose in Batley, and the expectation very much is we will, we have to get the PLP and the wider party to accept that without a big change things could get even worse than 2019, despite that election being absolutely catastrophic for us.
“It’s a huge achievement that for the first time since Tony Blair we have a leader who passes the prime minister test. But the toxicity that there still is around the brand and the damage that has been done, it’s not going to be solved just by a guy who looks like he could stand outside Number 10, it’s got to be much more fundamental.”
All they want is to be like the tories, get rid of the membership, and turn the party into their own private vehicle for their selfish career ambitions.
And then there's this. Labour MPs deserve everything they get.
https://twitter.com/siennamarla/status/1409454025926397955?s=20
All this talk of Burnham has reminded me that he was a decent opposition Health Secretary. Ashworth doesn't come across well and the rest of the front bench are pretty unmemorable aswell.
Is this truly the best Labour can put up?
Corbyn's front bench was supposedly shite because nobody would serve under him, so what's the excuse now?
The circle of life for Labour supporters.
I'm a long way from being a labout supporter right now.
Well , I’ve been watching a bit of Starmer on TV this week and it’s pretty much reinforced what I thought earlier.
He’s a complete non entity.
He offers nothing and I’d be surprised if anyone actually expected any sort of action from him.
He basically repeats what’s been happening and says”yes, that’s bad, we wouldn’t do that”
I imagine Boris has a little chuckle to himself when he watches Starmer on telly
He basically repeats what’s been happening and says”yes, that’s bad, we wouldn’t do that”
And what if the majority of the people is this country now think “Its not that bad. I’d do that”
“I’d give that girl I always fancied at uni a cushy taxpayer-funded job so I can try and get into her underwear in the stationary cupboard. I’d take some backhanders and dish out some big fat contracts to my mates, and deport asylum seekers to camps in Rwanda, and sell arms to Israel and Saudi and anyone else who wants some, and let kids on council estates go hungry .... and can we bring back hanging?”
I think the majority in petty, small-minded, insular little Brexit Britain now think like that. Certainly there’s not many people who seem to be that arsed with it all as long as can watch Love Island tonight
I don’t know where that leaves the Labour Party
In the minority, clearly
And what if the majority of the people is this country now think “Its not that bad. I’d do that”
“I’d give that girl ...
Well if the majority of the people in this country thought "Its not that bad. I’d do that” then Matt Hancock would still be in a Cabinet Minister.
Brads makes a comment that when Starmer is on TV he comes across as someone who has nothing to offer, and you respond binners with your usual ploy of blaming the audience.
It’s not a case of blame, it’s a case of weary resignation
We’re 5 years on from Brexit and now into our third consecutive Tory administration each worse (imho) yet apparently more popular with the electorate than the last.
The majority in this country clearly aren’t remotely interested in what Labour is selling
It’s clear that they want flag-waving nationalism and petty, nasty populism and deportations and royal yachts and kids singing songs about the glorious nation
If you want to know what the majority really want then tomorrow’s tabloids will make a good guide, when Engerland play Germany.
I can already feel my toes curling in anticipation. I’m sure they’ll surpass themselves. expect lots of references to the Second World War
I can already feel my toes curling in anticipation. I’m sure they’ll surpass themselves. expect lots of references to the Second World War
It's always like that, regardless of the government.
Maybe, but I fully expect ‘we’ will see new lows tomorrow to reflect the mood of the nation.
And when I say ‘nation’ I mean Engerland, and specifically the unpleasant majority who have delivered Brexit then elected this shower and seem very, very pleased with themselves having done so
The majority in this country clearly aren’t remotely interested in what Labour is selling
So you are disputing brads claim? I'll remind you what it was :
He’s a complete non entity.
He offers nothing and I’d be surprised if anyone actually expected any sort of action from him.
Personally I think it's a fair assessment.
People aren't interested in what Labour are selling? People don't know what Labour are selling. Presumably you think people should buy blindly into Labour?
And as for the last five years, you obviously have a memory issue. 13 million people were interested in what Labour were selling in 2017, the greatest increase in Labour vote in 70 years.
Obviously they then went on to screw that up but that's a different story.
Britain is full of ****ers who seem happy/want endless tory governments.
You can either move to another country where the ****er ratio is a bit lower or just isolate yourself from them like I have. I also stay off Facebook and pretty much any social media other than this forum (as it is bike related) and that keeps me happy enough as I don't have to see them and just ignore the couple of tory idiots on here.
Queue the usual suspects to tell me how the British people need to be sold a vision that they are not remotely interested in...
the greatest increase in Labour vote in 70 years
Victory!
I was one of those first time Labour voters at that election. There’s lots of positive stuff to learn from it, especially the policy shift in that election manifesto. It should be built on. But assuming that Labour can lose less badly just by aping it would be as unwise as trying to ape the policies and approach seen during the elections campaigns Labour actually won in the past.
13 million people were interested in what Labour were selling in 2017, the greatest increase in Labour vote in 70 years
You keep desperately clinging to that comfort blanket if you like
They say a week is a long time in politics. 2017 might as well be another planet.
You’re not in Kansas any more Dorothy
I keep desperately clinging on to facts binners.
You want to talk about what has happened to Labour since the referendum? I will talk about what happened to Labour since the referendum.
Britain is full of * who seem happy/want endless tory governments.
You can either move to another country where the * ratio is a bit lower or just isolate yourself from them like I have.
Or if you live in Wales or Scotland, you can support independence.
Wales unfortunately voted Brexit, theindependence movement is gaining traction though.
If you want to know what the majority really want then tomorrow’s tabloids will make a good guide, when Engerland play Germany.
Not many will be supporting Germany?
Btw I thought if I wanted to know what the majority really want you recommended popping down to your local the Rose and Crown?
Maybe I should pop in the Rose and Crown with a copy of Daily Star.in my hand eh?
I have to say binners your distain common people is impressive, you seem to despise them as much as you despise the Tories.
And all the more remarkable as you have on numerous occasions on here castigated the left for allegedly dismissing working-class people as thick racists.
Thangam Debbonaire told female party members at a meeting last weekend that introducing free social care for disabled and older people would “give the Tories a stick to beat Labour with”, Disability News Service (DNS) has been told.
The lack of ambition or ideas or spine is depressing
A coherent policy on social care that treats the carer and the cared for properly is needed, just accept if it's any good the conservatives will steal it and if they hate it then you have put clear distance between labour and them on a issue that will attract the aging Tory voter who doesn't want to lose the home they worked hard for to pay for care
Britain is full of **** who seem happy/want endless tory governments.
Most people don't vote Tory.
You want to talk about what has happened to Labour since the referendum? I will talk about what happened to Labour since the referendum.
Well we could always talk about how different things might have been if the Labour Party hadn’t had an enthusiastic lifelong Brexiteer at the helm during the referendum who essentially said ‘the EU is a bit shit” then went on holiday for 2 months
Shall we talk about that *?
Shall we talk about how much of where we are now is down to him?
Oh no... perish the thought, because..., he’s an honourable and principled man and ... blah, blah, *ing blah....
Sorry.... I just dozed off
Nothing... absolutely NOTHING is St Jeremy’s fault. Not even the fact that he was more keen on Brexit than Nigel Farage
Jeremy Corbyn... the greatest gift that right wing nationalists could ever even dare to dream of
*slow handclap*
Shall we talk about that ****?
Yeah, why not binners? I'm happy to talk about that, and anything else.
We could also talk about how Labour gave the Tories an open goal in 2019 with their second referendum policy. You wanna talk about that too?
The truth is binners you want to talk on pretty much a daily basis, literally year after year, about what Labour should and shouldn't do to win elections.
However for you the 2017 general election, which saw the greatest increase in Labour votes for 70 years, is a taboo subject which must never be discussed because it doesn't fit in neatly with your narrow ideological agenda.
And for you ideology is sacrosanct, if it conflicts with the truth then the truth needs to be ignored.
Which is why you go into one every time I mention the 2017 general election. You really don't want to talk about it.
You would much rather talk about the 1997 general election.
Listening to Corbynites talk about the 2017 general election is like listening to Jose Mourihno talk about a game where his team got absolutely humped, but he’s keen to talk about what percentage of possession they had
Like it matters. Like anyone cares
Remember that game we enjoyed 55% possession?
Not really, no
You know.... the one we lost six nil?Brilliant wasn’t it? All that possession?
Binners don't be scared - Jez isn't coming back!
You can talk about the 2017 election without fear of him coming back. You don't have to keep up the act.
Most people don’t vote Tory.
Yeah, people keep saying that but all I see is a Tory government for the last 40+ years with a slight blip where Labour fooled them with a bit of Tory lite.
They may not all be voting for it but they are not voting against it much are they, which is why I said they seem happy with OR want a tory government.
The fact that rather than people all hitting the streets protesting about how shit the tory governments are they actually increase in the polls.
Jeremy Corbyn… the greatest gift that right wing nationalists could ever even dare to dream of
The tidy irony that the current Labour party have headed toward that very direction; very much on their own terms because they think they might pull in the votes.
And somehow, that is apparently better than the 'For the many not the few' years - whilst Starmer on the other hand is currently performing dreadfully without the onslaught of the media, the Guardian nut jobs, the Watsons, Austins etc.
You've got a right wing party in Labour. They've offered nothing up that is remotely useful or interesting. And further to that nothing that pushes back against the current terrible Government.
You can't make it up but somehow you have managed it.
Yeah, people keep saying that but all I see is a Tory government for the last 40+ years with a slight blip where Labour fooled them with a bit of Tory lite.
Sure, but that's a different point.
Yeah, people keep saying that but all I see is a Tory government for the last 40+ years with a slight blip where Labour fooled them with a bit of Tory lite.
Slightly more than a blip
They may not all be voting for it but they are not voting against it much are they, which is why I said they seem happy with OR want a tory government.
Or have failed to find an alternative, many people vote on a "least worst" basis. Labour have over relied on "identity" votes. They spend their time and energy trying to appeal to sections of voters carved up into convenient blocks. I suspect more time and effort at CLP meetings is spent on motions on Palestine (an important foreign policy issue) than trying to discuss and develop policy on social care (one of the most important issues to reframe aging in the UK).
Unfortunately for labour the conservatives weakest leader coincided with JC in the hot seat.
The fact that rather than people all hitting the streets protesting about how shit the tory governments are they actually increase in the polls.
Covid uplift, all the parties in power have had a lift. Street protests need something or someone to coalesce around. street protests can also turn into cover for the usual suspects to damage property and fight the police which turns ODP off
Let's take a policy area, the high rise issue, 3.5 million people live in property impacted by either cladding or duff fire protection. Lease holders carrying the can, freeholders likely to profit, people's lives on hold, potentially financially crippled for life. They are home owning therefore the people who conventional wisdom would say are conservative voters being shafted by the system.
So, who is the labour frontbencher with this portfolio? When were they last in the media? What is labours policy? What are their proposals for building regs reform? What are the freehold reforms labour is putting forward? Why aren't they bashing Jenrick every single day?
I haven't a clue, does anyone know without googling?
And somehow, that is apparently better than the ‘For the many not the few’ years
Moral superiority doesn't win elections.
There comes a point where you have to acknowledge reality and deal with the world as it is, not as how you'd like it to be.
We live in a country that is increasingly right wing, very conservative, quite racist and yearns to return to the days of empire.
The labour party is presently completely paralysed by this new reality as it knows that it can't offer the electorate this, despite this being what they clearly want, and remain as the labour party in anything but name.
So what to do? I haven't got a bloody clue? Is there even an acceptable answer? I'd love to hear anyone come up with a solution. Have you any suggestions? And FFS don't start with "well in 2017...". Thats ancient history now and just to remind you yet again... Labour LOST that election.
The irony here is that this new nationalist populism that is being mined so successfully by this present UKIP-ite Tory party has all been focussed around Brexit and the subsequent fallout, which was enthusiastically enabled every step of the way by Grandad and his Lexiteer chums. They were too thick wrapped up in their Bennite anti-EU sentiment to see what was staring them in the face - that they were nodding through the far rights wet dream
Talk about useful idiots
Heres the exact moment the labour party well and truly ****ed itself. When the glorious leader surfaced again after his 2 month sabbatical...
binners Full Member
We’re 5 years on from Brexit and now into our third consecutive Tory administration each worse (imho) yet apparently more popular with the electorate than the last.
The majority in this country clearly aren’t remotely interested in what Labour is selling
It is clear from what you are posting that you want to talk about the period which covers 2017 binners, but you just don't want me to mention 2017.
Why? Because it exposes as completely false your claim that each Tory government is, quote, "more popular with the electorate than the last".
In 2017, which was definitely after the 2016 Referendum, Labour increased its support by a THIRD with an extra 3 million votes and ten percent of the vote.
Far from being more popular, as you falsely claim, support for the Tories a year after the Referendum fell so much that they FAILED to win the election. No party won the 2017 general election.
But you can't stomach the truth binners so you bring up, through your own volition, the 2016-2021 period in UK politics but insist in leaving out 2017.
Insisting instead in insulting anyone who does.
With your causal relationship with the truth binners you should have been a Tory politician 🙂
No party won the 2017 general election.
Oh... have I not been living under a Tory government for the last 11 years then? Blimey. Who knew? This socialism lark we've all been enjoying since 2017 didn't look like I imagined it would.
There comes a point where you have to acknowledge reality and deal with the world as it is, not as how you’d like it to be.
Yes let's do that. 28% of the electorate voted tory in 2019. Labour won their biggest vote share in decades and highest increase in vote share in 2017 by offering something real and different to the majority who don't vote tory. Now they've gone back to targeting the votes of the tory voting minority they've predictably lost the votes they gained in 2017 and are in a worse position.
We live in a country that is increasingly right wing, very conservative, quite racist and yearns to return to the days of empire.
See above.
We banging on about 2017 again? Quelle surprise!
You sound like Spurs fans
Remember that year we nearly won something? What a golden age that was, eh?
We banging on about 2017 again? Quelle surprise!
Why wouldn't we discuss 2017? It's a fact that Labour significantly increased the number of people voting for them so it's reasonable to suggest that they were offering something with popular appeal. It makes no sense at all to abandon that approach in favour of one which appears to be taking them ever further from government.
You are aware you have to get more votes than the other party to 'win' an election?
It's great how 'not nearly as bad as the disaster we thought it was going to be' is now hailed as a great victory and a sign of the electorates true yearning for socialism.
Maybe we should build some statues as a memorial to the great triumph of 2017? Jezza holding aloft a turnip outside his garden shed perhaps? Dianne Abbot stood by a money tree with an abacus?
Because if theres one thing we know, it's that people love a statue in todays Britain. Can't get enough of them
We banging on about 2017 again?
We are, because it's the clearest and most reliable evidence we have that if you address the concerns of the non-tory voting majority, and offer them a real alternative, they will respond. You don't want to accept that though, and instead think chasing the votes of an ever decreasing minority of swing voters will somehow magically deliver the millions of votes needed to defeat the tories.
The answer is staring you in the face, but you refuse to see it because it would mean admitting Corbyn and his 'cabal' were actually doing something right back in 2017. Had the whole labour party, and in particular its MPs got behind that then they would have won, in 2017 or later, and the dystopian nightmare we're now experiencing would have been stopped in its tracks. It's a crime of indescribable proportions that Labour MPs preferrred to protect their own myopic, selfish interests.
Why wouldn’t we discuss 2017?
Because it is irrelevant.
- It was against May who gave Corbyn a run in how not to be a popular leader
- Brexit was not being dealt with well
Do you seriously think the result would have been the same if it was Corbyn vs Johnson ?
I love the Soviet style selective re-writing of history regarding the Great Victory of 2017*
You just missed the tractor production figures, comrade. I believe they are up, once again. The fatherland is truly prospering under such great leadership
* Don't mention 2019 though. Like Brexit, we'll just pretend that never happened
We live in a country that is increasingly right wing, very conservative, quite racist and yearns to return to the days of empire.
Only if you live in Guardian Op-Ed's or believe the SNP propaganda.
With your causal relationship with the truth binners you should have been a Tory politician
David Chaytor didn't do much for truth in the constituency either
You are aware you have to get more votes than the other party to ‘win’ an election?
Precisely my point, branes. So while you will continue to support a strategy of losing more and more votes to the other party, I would prefer to look at a strategy that has a chance of winning.
Because it is irrelevant.
– It was against May who gave Corbyn a run in how not to be a popular leader
– Brexit was not being dealt with well
Of course it's relevant. Labour managed to come up with a manifesto which had popular appeal, and persuaded millions more to vote for them despite the deep personal unpopularity of its leader. This isn't about Corbyn, it's about providing a genuine alternative to the electorate. Something that Starmer is singularly failing to do, with entirely predictable results.
Because it is irrelevant.
– It was against May who gave Corbyn a run in how not to be a popular leader
– Brexit was not being dealt with well
Christ the defeatism is ridiculous. Corbyn didn't win tory votes off May, he gained votes from people who had stopped voting, and lib dems and other left leaning voters who supported fringe parties and swithced back to labour (I was one of them). There are millions of people out there who make up 72% of the electorate who refuse to vote tory. If Labour can't capture enough votes from that majority and encourage them to vote *for* something then they don't deserve to win. The tories only win because Labour's centrist defeatists allow them to.
