If you want to defend Corbyn or Wrong-Daily, then fine
I'm not defending anyone, but this excuse that 'the left' (I'm still curious as to who you think they are BTW) is being paranoid is ridiculous. Starmer and the people behind him pulling the strings clearly have an agenda, and it certainly isn't to do what Biden has done in the US. Or maybe he doesn't and everything that's happened in the past year is just a result of his incompetent leadership? Yes, perhaps that's the most obvious explanation, well done you've persuaded me.
The vast majority only care about the ‘now’. The problem with that, is that 10, 20 years down the line, you’re ****. Or rather; your kids are, because they’re the ones who can’t afford housing, education, access to decent healthcare etc. And are in debt.
Labour/whoever has time to start that conversation. As a society, we have to look at long term social, environmental and economic planning for the greater good, and making short term "me, me, me" as unacceptable as drink driving. There's time ahead of the next election to take that moral high ground, on the back of the blatant Tory short termism and cronyism.
Starmer and the people behind him pulling the strings clearly have an agenda
Well it’d be a bloody useless political leader who didn’t!
Maybe it’s dragging the Labour Party back to being a viable party of potential government and away from the electorally catastrophic shambles delivered by the last regime?
Imagine that? Complete madness! Madness, I tell you! Why on earth would anyone want to do that?
It’s not a matter of belief, but yeah I think he can.
Based on what? Because we haven't seen any evidence so far.
Maybe it’s dragging the Labour Party back to being a viable party of potential government and away from the electorally catastrophic shambles delivered by the last regime?
So you mean back towards the failed neoliberal project as started by Blair, and which fell right into tory hands, thus making it very easy for them to gain power? IE; doing nothing other than what those currently in real power, ie the oligarchs, bankers and media barons, want?
Please explain how that will achieve the major changes our society actually needs? I'm dying to find out.
It’s just more of the same self-anointed victim status
Says the man who has banned himself from his local pub 'cause all the other punters were being so horrid.
All this thread has succeeded in doing now is make me wish that this afternoon I could have a stroll down to my local (the Irwell Works Brewery, so not very Islington Wine Bar, I’m afraid Ernie) and just sit with a pint or three and the Guardian
Do it - just stroll in and tell them you're sorry and that you've calm down now. Blame it all on drinking on an empty stomach or something.
Perhaps leave the Guardian at home.
And maybe wear something like this :
Join me on Tuesday, along with Angela Rayner, Mark Drakeford and Carolyn Harris, to get insights into how Welsh Labour can win this election.
Here's a hint: it involves all of you doing your bit, because it's your collective action that'll mean Welsh Labour in government keeps helping people across Wales.
Election Strategy Rally and Calling Voters
with Keir, Angela, Carolyn and Mark
Tuesday 6 April, 6.30pm
Online via ZoomI'll RSVP now
Working alongside members like you is one of my favourite things about leading our party. And it’s never more important (or more fun) than right now, during a tight election campaign.
Labour has been fighting elections for more than 100 years and we do it through the strength of our movement, conversation by conversation.
The pandemic has made this a different sort of election, but it hasn't changed that we win when as many of us pitch in as possible. So play your part and sign up now - I look forward to talking with you about this some more then.
Until Tuesday,
Keir.
I know he didn't write it but it is a bit cringe isn't it?
Says the man who has banned himself from his local pub ’cause all the other punters were being so horrid.
Being horrid? I told a bunch of racist *s that they were a bunch of racist *s. They still drink there so I drink somewhere else where the clientele is less knuckle-dragging.
The point I was making is that I really, really, really, really, really, really really fancy sitting in the pub with a pint and the Guardian. A simple pleasure we’ve all been denied for what seems like an eternity 🙁
Please explain how that will achieve the major changes our society actually needs? I’m dying to find out.
Starmer is a mainstream politician, with a mainstream politician's view of the world, I think most folk are just looking for him to be a less shitty version of what we have got now. I wouldn't invest your hopes of radical change in one middle aged ex-lawyer if I were you.
They still drink there so I drink somewhere else
So it turns out that the clientele of your local pub which you offered up as 'your average voter' isn't your average voter after all. It's just a pub were everyone happens to be racist, misogynist, and homophobic. Perhaps you should have mentioned that in your orignal rant against northern working-class?
But anyway why are you avoiding them? Is that the best strategy to win them over? What would Keir Starmer do - how would he win them over? To get back on topic.
Or are you next going to tell me that winning them over isn't necessary and the whole thing was a red herring which you threw in for no reason?
Btw how long were you going to your local before you clocked that they were all racist, misogynist, and homophobic?
Binners you’re clearly in the wrong party.
https://twitter.com/barnsleynip/status/1378894301476835331?s=21
🤣
I don’t like Starmer because in the year or so since his rise to the leadership of an fraction-ridden opposition party he’s not come up with a credible plan
You could have stopped there.
Btw how long were you going to your local before you clocked that they were all racist, misogynist, and homophobic?
You might have slept through the last decade… but there was this referendum against political correctness and sponging foreigners… or something like that… the campaigns for which emboldened people to “tell it like it is”.
Yeah I missed the referendum on political correctness a decade ago. Shame as I would have liked to have voted in that one.
So basically you are suggesting that binners probably discovered about 10 years ago that his local pub was full of racist misogynist homophobes?
I wonder why up until then the punters were so reticent about their bigtory. Perhaps they hadn't wanted to appear rude?
Ernie, Comrade, fascinating though it is to discuss my drinking habits, we should probably get back to the subject in hand.
Binners you’re clearly in the wrong party
I think that will be deleted pretty sharpish when Greggs legal department see it
I doubt many will want to associated with that gang of nobheads. On reading their Twitter feed I’ve changed my mind about Labour needing to worry about them splitting the vote in Hartlepool
I reckon they’ll be nailed on to lose their deposit. Absolute clowns!
If Labour lose, it’ll be their own doing
If Labour lose, it’ll be their own doing
Not because Hartlepool is full of racists?? This is so confusing.
I reckon your drinking habits are not only fascinating binners but easier to understand.
So just to recap, when did you stop drinking with racists?
If Labour lose, it’ll be their own doing
Totally agree. So do you accept that Starmer should accept responsibility for that, or are you still clinging to the lefties/eu ate my homework excuse?
Not because Hartlepool is full of racists?? This is so confusing.
I thought it was someone else accusing everyone in Hartlepool of being racist
I reckon your drinking habits are not only fascinating binners but easier to understand.
His drinking habits are probably more explained by a very steep hill and decent quality beer
So just to recap, when did you stop drinking with racists?
When did you stop beating your wife?
Anyway who does the Croydon Communist vote for these days?
Totally agree. So do you accept that Starmer should accept responsibility for that, or are you still clinging to the lefties/eu ate my homework excuse?
He's not inspiring people is he, it could be a keeping their powder dry to stop Boris stealing anything half decent in term of policy. But he needs to be able to inspire the foot soldiers who post the leaflets and it doesn't seem to be happening. It may be a bit harsh to put it on Starmer as his team is tepid at best and the talent pool very limited
The loaded question is "have you stopped beating your wife?" as it requires only a yes or no answer, not "when did you stop beating your wife?"
In the case of binners it wasn't a loaded question as there was no presumption of guilt - he had already informed us that he used to drink in a pub full of racists.
Quite why he needed to tell us isn't clear as apparently there's another pub he can go to.
The loaded question is “have you stopped beating your wife?” as it requires only a yes or no answer, not “when did you stop beating your wife?”
You appear to have misunderstood a mainstay of our cultural conciousness.
*when did you stop* is a trope understood by apparently fewer than one would have thought - it absolutely is loaded, and to the brim.
What Labour fanbois/anti-fanbois have to reconcile is that there are plenty of people just like me who either do, or do not, give a proverbial **** either way. I have voted Labour, Lib Dem, Green and Other in a mixed bag of Borough/County/General elections over the last 30 years.
The only thing that unites the ^above was who they were up against, in the seat they were contesting. I have only ever voted against the Conservative candidate, by favouring the candidate most likely to unseat them. Ever. And i have voted in Windsor.
I have never voted for anyone.
https://twitter.com/liamyoung/status/1379208239942922242?s=19
Reconcile that one.
People appear to want the policies that Labour could and should offer, and have offered but they want them from the Tories who won't offer them.
What an absolute mess Labour are in. This is what happens when you stand for nothing.
A seat won twice under Corbyn's leadership.
Reconcile that one.
Because asking people if they agree to certain policies is not linked to who they vote for as they like the other stuff the party they actually vote for more, i.e. Brexit, vaccines etc,.
Because asking people if they agree to certain policies is not linked to who they vote for as they like the other stuff the party they actually vote for more, i.e. Brexit, vaccines etc,.
Not linked is a stretch.
But your second point stands. (Brexit has happened though.)
So Starmer's spy is checking and chucking the membership, people who have social concerns, are socialists, are active and would like to be represented politically. They then form eg NIP and the LP is complaining about sectarian splitters who are not giving their support to the party which expelled them. Brexit picked up protest votes and we can expect the NIPs to do the same. The whippet and Greggs graphic was reet good, they need to be ranting for more coal in every bath.
That article bi_n_daft posted is probably depressingly accurate. It's no wonder the Tories are busy stoking a culture war at every opportunity. Its paying off massively for them in just this sort of constituency
That article depressingly nails it.
A real democracy should ensure that minorities should not be sidelined by the majority. Johnson & Co know that to go against that, and intentionally and whole heartedly be the party "for" the majority, leaving the opposition as being seen as the party moaning about the treatment of minorities, is a winning strategy. At least it is here, for now.
And on personalities... I challenge anyone to claim that they honestly think that Starmer can win the next general election... even if they think that he is pulling Labour closer to winning one eventually. No one really thinks that he can, do they?
No one really thinks that he can, do they?
Unfortunately I think he's the Neil Kinnock. His job is to try and repair the damage done to the party and get it to be viewed as credible again. Thats a mammoth task with the complete mess he inherited. I increasingly get the feeling that as a realist, he knows this.
It wouldn't surprise me if the Tories decide, having won Hartlepool, to take full advantage of the Vaccine roll-out eclipsing everything else and go for a general election before the public inquiry can reveal the true horrors of the incompetence, cronyism and corruption of the last 12 months.
Johnson is the arch-opportunist. I'm sure he's already itching to call an election and is just waiting for the first available moment for it not to look TOO crass in the wake of so many deaths
Full poll:
It's all Corbyn's fault.
It’s all Corbyn’s fault.
The Corbyn Continuity Party is presently polling at 2%
If you want to blame anyone, I'd say blame the boffins who developed the vaccine that he's busy shamelessly claiming all the credit for and the medical professionals he's hiding behind
If, as appears to be the case, the Tories do win the seat (and I've put money on them doing so) then we'll definitely be having a general election before the end of the year. No Question. I'm sure Starmer and co are thinking this. They certainly should be.
Our descent into Banana Republic status continues apace
I think he would be better off being ambitious. Labour have lost 4 elections in a row.
BTW Corbyn inherited a complete mess also. As did Theresa May as did Bojo. Politics is messy.
Forget the mess and move forward.
His job is to try and repair the damage done to the party and get it to be viewed as credible again.
And yet he appears to be making things worse in the areas where labour lost all those voters. It's almost like the fantasy about Corbyn being the only problem was just that. The reality is that this goes all the way back to Blair and his failure to to redress the results of thatcherism. As I've been saying for years, it wasn't Corbyn and McDonnell who turned labour into the 'metropolitan liberal elite'. Corbyn and McDonnell had a chance to repair some of that damage after brexit, but unfortunately they allowed themselves to be swayed by the very people who are now in control and about to lose seats like Hartlepool. Starmer's catastrophic second referendum policy has a lot to answer for.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the Tories decide, having won Hartlepool, to take full advantage of the Vaccine roll-out eclipsing everything else and go for a general election before the public inquiry
FFS a few weeks ago you were ranting that labour had 4 more years despite me saying it could be next year or 2023 at the latest. Anyway glad you finally agree. So now do you also agree that Starmer needs to stop dithering and get off his arse and start spelling out what a labour govt would do?
If you want to blame anyone, I’d say blame the boffins who developed the vaccine that he’s busy shamelessly claiming all the credit for and the medical professionals he’s hiding behind
As long as we're clear that it's nothing to do with Starmer.
It wouldn’t surprise me if the Tories decide, having won Hartlepool, to take full advantage of the Vaccine roll-out eclipsing everything else and go for a general election before the public inquiry can reveal the true horrors of the incompetence, cronyism and corruption of the last 12 months.
No-one will give a crap about a public inquiry. There will be a window of opportunity where CV19 is largely controlled, the economy is growing, and the long term impacts of Brexit have yet to be felt. I think maybe late next year.
I think he would be better off being ambitious. Labour have lost 4 elections in a row.
When the election campaign inevitably starts, he'll have to be. It'll be interesting to see how that goes, as he'll have to go on the offensive. I agree that he's been far too timid in going after the government, but I can understand why. Like it or not, the majority do not think this is the time to be arguing with each other politically. They think its a time for 'unity'. Once we get an election, that all changes
The Tories are just going to focus on one issue. The forthcoming Tory election campaign, in a nutshell: we gave you vaccinations and now you can all go back to the pub and book a week in Benidorm. Aren't we brilliant? Look at the EU... what did we tell you?
As for Hartlepool, when I put my bet on a couple of weeks ago, the odds for the Tories and Labour were about the same at 1.8-1.9/1. They are now:
Tories 1.5/1
Labour 2.4/1
The culture war trumps all (as the polling in Hartlepool shows- people want labours policies but knee-jerk reaction is that BLM is bad, statues are good)
Johnson has this figured, Starmer knows it too, but no matter how many flags he stands by, its not sticking.
And that's crux, what should Starmer be saying & doing to beat Johnson?
https://twitter.com/DAaronovitch/status/1379346138755694595?s=19
Starmer knows it too, but no matter how many flags he stands by, its not sticking.
Because people aren't stupid. When they see a politician who doesn't stand by his principles they don't trust or believe them for fairly obvious reasons. Starmer is the embodiment of the metropolitan, internationalist, woke elite. No amount of flag waving is going to persuade anyone any different. He'd be far better off fighting his corner from the position he campaigned on in his leadership campaign, but he's already forgotten most of that.
The culture war trumps all (as the polling in Hartlepool shows- people want labours policies but knee-jerk reaction is
that BLM is bad, statues are good)that they're not going to vote for people who keep shouting at them that they are racists, xenophobes and tories
FIFY
The head of a Tory think-tank thinks the main problem with Labour's leader is that he's not Tory enough.
Brilliant analysis.
Because people aren’t stupid.
I think all recent politics in this country proves otherwise
When they see a politician who doesn’t stand by his principles they don’t trust or believe them for fairly obvious reasons.
Then how do you explain us having Boris Johnson, a man utterly devoid of even the merest hint of principles and a proven serial liar as our PM and ahead in the polls?
I'd say that in the UK at the moment, the opposite appears to be true
Then how do you explain us having Boris Johnson, a man utterly devoid of even the merest hint of principles and a proven serial liar as our PM and ahead in the polls?
He campaigned on a platform of "getting Brexit done", which he did. He was also up against a chronically divided Labour party.
what should Starmer be saying & doing to beat Johnson?
That's what I've been asking the Starmerists on here. So far, nobody has come up with anything more than 'he should be like Biden'. Seeing as how Starmer has been Labour leader for a year now, and it's been an absolute disaster, isn't it perhaps time to stop blaming Corbyn/the 'left' and whatever other right-wing rhetoric some people seem to have swallowed? And maybe have a look at what is really causing the problem,; the right of the party, those in the most senior positions, who are orchestrating this dismal shambles. Those who refused to back Corbyn, despite him winning two leadership elections, those who still want to push the failed neoliberal agenda, those who have little but their own middle class elite interests at heart. People like Margaret Hodge; screamed 'antisemite' at Corbyn, yet used racist rhetoric to win a constituency election. Margaret Hodge, who is the heir to a steel trading company worth billions, which profited from the Apartheid regime in South Africa. 'Represents' some of the poorest and most deprived communities in the UK. That's just one example. Blair, of course, went to Eton. Are these the kind of people Labour's traditional supporters can really trust to act in all their interests? No. And that is really why Labour have lost their way; by forcing out trade union representation, and instead courting big business etc, Labour became a party for elite interests. Having the odd 'working class' token figures such as Jess Phillips or Angela Rayner, is a distraction, much like the tories token people of colour such as Priti Patel, Rishi Sunak etc.
https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1301866611834527746?s=20
That, right there, tells the story of how Labour are no longer attractive to working class people. Politics is an elitists game, and unless more working class people become politically engaged and involved, there will be no change to the status quo. So I'll ask once again; what is Starmer doing to change anything?
