I think all recent politics in this country proves otherwise
So on top of calling them all racists you also tell them they're thick? And you wonder why they don't vote labour?
Then how do you explain us having Boris Johnson, a man utterly devoid of even the merest hint of principles and a proven serial liar as our PM and ahead in the polls?
There's two aspects to this. FIrstly he doesn't do the above, and actually appears to listen to and respect the views of people in places like Hartlepool rather than calling them thick racists for supporting brexit. Second, he has very good PR who have successfully created a brand around him of someone who isn't perfect, but gets things done and isn't afraid to make mistakes. People don't want a saint for a leader, they just want someone who isn't afraid to stick their neck out, and Boris does that very well. On both these points Starmer fails miserably.
go for a general election before the public inquiry can reveal the true horrors of the incompetence, cronyism and corruption of the last 12 months.
You realise most of the voters won't even know there was an public inquiry and those that did will just say "well, any other party would have done the same".
You just can't reason with idiots, you need to fool them - something the Tory party have been doing for decades.
Then how do you explain us having Boris Johnson, a man utterly devoid of even the merest hint of principles and a proven serial liar as our PM and ahead in the polls?
A few thoughts,
Boris generally proves that a bluffer with a posh accent will go far in this country, it's not as easy as it was and will probably never be as easy again
He was up against poor competition in the leadership race, he's arguably slipped through in a generational change in the senior conservative politicians
Whatever you think about him he's a proven communicator who is able to simplify things to sell them to the voters in a positive fashion
He thinks the UK is a great place to be and sells that idea
And then you look at the general election choice of him or the guy who prefers Venezuela then it's not surprising he's PM
Starmer is going to struggle against the vaccine success and the lack of talent and ideas from his front bench. It's not the death spiral into irrelevance of the libdems but it's not a path to victory
More importantly for labour is the what next? The conservatives have some talent coming through (as well as plenty of awful duds), their next leader is likely to be BAME, and at this rate the first BAME PM. All the shouting about their recent race report gets a hard time when they can point to the first BAME PM after two women PMs it should make people wonder what labour is for
Blair was at Fettes, the Scots Harrow.
And that is really why Labour have lost their way; by forcing out trade union representation, and instead courting big business etc, Labour became a party for elite interests.
I would counter that with the view that the labour movement has been hollowed out by identity politics where debates on Palestine/ gender recognition/ issue if the day take over from coming up with a way of sorting out social care or other core issues
The traditional labour voter with a job, possibly a house, car, kids struggling in school doesn't register these as important in their struggle to get by
Blair was at Fettes, the Scots Harrow.
That may well be but he's not one of the "people of Scotland"
Blair was at Fettes, the Scots Harrow.
You are right of course. My mistake. The point still stands however; he's from a very privileged background, is extremely wealthy, and is a member of the social elite. Heath, Thatcher, Major and May all went to grammar schools. The bottom line is that our society has grown steadily more and more conservative since the 'socialism' of the post war era, and people ever more in thrall of those with wealth and power. The only way to break that cycle, is to field actual working class alternatives to the old school tie brigade; Starmer is nowhere near that. When the choices are between two men in suits, and one has a much better act, it's a no-brainer to see which one will win.
I would counter that with the view that the labour movement has been hollowed out
But that's exactly why they were hollowed out, because in the Blair era working class interests and people were sidelined, leaving the space for fringe interests like Palestine and gender recognitioon etc. The woke elitist image of the labour party is a direct result of Blair shifting the focus of the party from the regional working class to metropolitan middle classes.
Can we call Starmer a homophobe now?
https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1379164412632793090
So, in answer to my question at the weekend... he's an idiot, not a bigot. To not remember May's misstep with this church shows a lack of political awareness that he and his team can ill afford. Useless.
is a direct result of Blair shifting the focus of the party from the regional working class to metropolitan middle classes.
But as fewer and fewer of the population (in general) see themselves as working class, and identify (socially at least) as small 'c' conservatives where does that leave Labour? what's it's point?
@big_n_daft thanks for the unherd article, interesting (if a little depressing) reading
So, in answer to my question at the weekend…
he’sthe person in his team who set this up is an idiot, not a bigot. To not remember May’s misstep with this church shows a lack of political awareness that he and his team can ill afford. his team is Useless.
FIFY
The reality is that he probably had never heard of them prior, whoever set this up didn't do due diligence, then you get the cock up.
It's part of the issue with the today is xyz recognition day campaigns cycle that labour seem too happy to feed.
@big_n_daft thanks for the unherd article, interesting (if a little depressing) reading
This week's Economist has an article that posits that it's a wonder that labour held on to the red wall for so long. Their campaigns don't register with the people who live and work there.
The reality is that he probably had never heard of them prior, whoever set this up didn’t do due diligence, then you get the cock up.
Starmer isn't new to politics. He should have heard of this church... May had to handle all the negative media attention when she made the mistake of engaging with them. That wasn't long ago, and it wasn't under the radar at all. Yes, his team messed up, but he should have personally picked up on it.
I saw a nice line on Twitter, stolen from somewhere else, that KS is "going round the country stirring up apathy"
Starmer isn’t new to politics. He should have heard of this church… May had to handle all the negative media attention when she made the mistake of engaging with them. That wasn’t long ago, and it wasn’t under the radar at all. Yes, his team messed up, but he should have personally picked up on it.
I really doubt he has the time to do that sort of due diligence, He's got plenty of other things to worry about which is why he has his team should have vetted them. Labour make Starmer do all sorts of things for a plethora of religious groups from all religions Starmer has better things to do than vet them all.
Jesus! (see what I did there)
He's not just a puppet. And this isn't some obscure link that needs research, when May put her foot in it by looking like she was backing the church, it was all over the media. That was a recent story. This isn't some obscure long lost detail, the name should have rung alarm bells with any MP that has put themselves in the spotlight.
before the public inquiry can reveal the true horrors of the incompetence, cronyism and corruption of the last 12 months
Dear god do you not know the basics of politics? Public inquiries will only reveal what the people commissioning it wants it to reveal and, if necessary, will punt it off into the long grass for a while. The only time it will hit hard is when the people commissioning it arent fussed normally because it will hurt the previous government.
Did you know about it before someone else flagged it? Were you out of the blocks on this before anyone else?
Do you fancy a job as part of a team dedicated to social justice and progressive politics? Could you provide the leadership needed to prevent the LOTO having a cock up?
If yes send your CV and covering letter to Sir K Starmer, c/o House of Commons
I hadn't heard of them, I don't even remember the May story, remember lots of other things about her premiership, not some Christian group with a dodgy track record.
My personal view is that it's all over for any left wing party in this country; there was never much appetite for it in the first place.
Bloke A struggling with his 3 bedroomed semi-detached, 2 cars and a couple of foreign holidays per year is unlikely to give a shit about some foreigner whose kids are starving or being systematically oppressed by their own (or another) government.
Bloke B on the next street, with even less than Bloke A, will care even less. He knows that if we stopped sending money abroad and looked after our own then he could have what bloke A has.
This idea of people actually giving a shit about others is well and truly debunked now; it was a nice thought for a few years after the war but that time has long passed.
I know there are some of you out there but you are a dying breed.
But as fewer and fewer of the population (in general) see themselves as working class, and identify (socially at least) as small ‘c’ conservatives where does that leave Labour? what’s it’s point?
A fundamental question and the point or need for Labour is a lot less than it was 70 years ago. It is a very different time and people have very different priorities.
It is a largely selfish country full of horrible people and was tipped over the edge in the 80's and will never go back
Did you know about it before someone else flagged it? Were you out of the blocks on this before anyone else?
I seriously doubt it. The tweet I saw from Starmer was already a day old when I first saw it.
I hadn’t heard of them, I don’t even remember the May story
Well, I had, and did... and as recently as last month I was reading about other connections with "gay conversion therapy" organisations inside the "current" administration. Naturally they mentioned what happened with May, and suggested current ministers and advisors could be falling into the same hole of looking homophobic due to their associations. They'll probably get a free pass now thanks to Starmer's mistake.
It is a largely selfish country full of horrible people and was tipped over the edge in the 80’s and will never go back
Load of bollox
Selfish people have always existed, as have those who are prepared to make their place nicer by getting off their arse and doing something about it
A fundamental question and the point or need for Labour is a lot less than it was 70 years ago. It is a very different time and people have very different priorities.
Seeing that was the post war Britain of the 1950's I'm not surprised. Britain in 2021 is a very different place
They’ll probably get a free pass now thanks to Starmer’s mistake.
I doubt it, the whole conversion thing harks back to a different era and we are no longer that country. It would be toxic for anyone to be associated with it
My personal view is that it’s all over for any left wing party in this country; there was never much appetite for it in the first place.
And yet people continue to support free healthcare, free education, universal benefits, progressive taxes, and publicly owned or not for profit management of strategic infrastructure and services. On the whole people will always support what is in their own best interests. What reactionary forces have learnt over the centuries is how to fool people into doing the opposite, and that has reached it's peak today with the help of globalisation, the internet and social media. A smart leftwing party would figure out how to use these same lessons to forward their own agenda, but instead all we get is pale imitation because the people at the top of the labour party have little to gain from a popular left wing agenda that the people at large would benefit from.
I really doubt he has the time to do that sort of due diligence, He’s got plenty of other things to worry about which is why he has his team should have vetted them. Labour make Starmer do all sorts of things for a plethora of religious groups from all religions Starmer has better things to do than vet them all.
It's his job to show leadership, ergo, it's his responsibility to ensure stuff like this doesn't happen. It has, which shows a clear failure of leadership. When Corbyn 'liked' a mural that was then interpreted as antisemitic, in spite of him apologising and admitting his error, that was then used ruthlessly as 'proof' he was antisemitic. The fact that very, very few people would have actually recognised the mural as containing antisemitic tropes (I didn't until it was pointed out, and I doubt 99.99% of the population did either) was irrelevant. But in Starmer's case, it was known that that church was dodgy. Boris was criticised for attending in 2009. And let's be honest, a lot of religious groups and institutions are fundamentally homophobic anyway. No; making excuses for Starmer is just papering over the cracks. He's useless. Labour are a busted flush. Time for change.
Time for change.
Vote Green
My personal view is that it’s all over for any left wing party in this country; there was never much appetite for it in the first place.
It is a largely selfish country full of horrible people and was tipped over the edge in the 80’s and will never go back
Whilst I don't think it's possible for this country to suddenly tip towards a radical leftist zeitgeist any time soon, you clearly haven't been around many young people. They're the future voters and decision makers. They won't be subscribing to the 'I'll alright Jack' mentality of many of their parents. Because they'll have to be implementing 'socialist' ideals, in order to survive and progress in life. In the same way that if you grew up in the 70s and 80s, you're probably a lot less racist and homophobic than your parents' generation, so the kids growing up today, could be a lot less tory. Here's hoping anyway.
Wonder if the 'unneeded' swathes of Labour membership will swing into action and close the anticipated gap at Hartlepool - with troops on the ground?
Oh.
Load of bollox
Selfish people have always existed, as have those who are prepared to make their place nicer by getting off their arse and doing something about it
I am talking about England, not sure which country you live in. The majority of people are only interested in their own needs and have a pretty horrible attitude to anyone less privileged.
The fact that the Tory party are in power pretty much most of the time totally backs this up.
swing into action and close the anticipated gap at Hartlepool
It can’t be closed down. That “gap” has come about because Johnson has now successfully fused the Conservative and Brexit/UKIP vote. Labour are polling slightly ahead of last election results in this seat, but it’s back to being a two horse rather than three horse race there (as it will be elsewhere come a general election). There’s the noise of a few percentages going to the NIPS joke party that doesn’t help, but ultimately this is about the Blukip project turning support/votes into seats. This is very dangerous for Labour in lots of strongly Vote Leave seats.
And yet people continue to support free healthcare, free education, universal benefits, progressive taxes, and publicly owned or not for profit management of strategic infrastructure and services.
They believe in them when they need them, not when they need to pay for them. And they certainly don't want to be paying for them for someone else.
Whilst I don’t think it’s possible for this country to suddenly tip towards a radical leftist zeitgeist any time soon, you clearly haven’t been around many young people. They’re the future voters and decision makers. They won’t be subscribing to the ‘I’ll alright Jack’ mentality of many of their parents. Because they’ll have to be implementing ‘socialist’ ideals, in order to survive and progress in life. In the same way that if you grew up in the 70s and 80s, you’re probably a lot less racist and homophobic than your parents’ generation, so the kids growing up today, could be a lot less tory. Here’s hoping anyway.
I know lots of young people and I totally agree that they are generally fair minded and hold views for a more equitable world.
BUT so did my friends, family and colleagues when we were young and mostly they have now migrated to the right.
My wife and I are both nurses and many of our colleagues have voted Tory for the past few elections.
FFS.
I do hope you're both right BTW.
I am talking about England, not sure which country you live in. The majority of people are only interested in their own needs and have a pretty horrible attitude to anyone less privileged.
The fact that the Tory party are in power pretty much most of the time totally backs this up.
I assume you live in Scotland then to come out with that bollox
Plenty of people care and get off their arses to make where they live a better place, litter pickers, food bank volunteers, charity shop staff, volunteers for this, that or the other, fund raisers for a plethora of good causes. Self entitled people with a streak of selfishness a mile wide are plentiful as anywhere but there are plenty of people who do care some of them vote for the Tories
I assume you live in Scotland then to come out with that bollox
Nope, lived in England for 53 years. Yes, clearly some people do care but on the whole they just don't.
How do you explain continual Tory governments getting voted in? Do you really think people that care about people who need the most help vote Tory?
What if… a sizeable minority (or even a majority) do care… but the Tories have hit on a winning successful formula for getting a different sizeable minority to get out and vote for them (not just say they are inclined not to). A working majority of seats (and unfettered rule) doesn’t even require a majority of votes, never mind the support of a majority of potential voters.
Dazh,
One of the reasons it is so difficult for a left wing party in the UK is the quality of the left wing candidates. Comparing Jeremy Corbyn to Bernie Sanders and Rebecca Wrong Daily to AOC isn't comparing apples and oranges it's chalk and cheese.
I don't think the population is any worse or more selfish than it was in previous generations, Its just the way things have been (miss) sold to them. I agree with many on here that England is essentially a conservative country with a small 'c' but if the right person comes along at the right moment and has the ability to sell it to 'em then I could easily see a swing towards more progressive politics.
Corbyn and Co. We're rubbish and did more damage to progressive politics than good. The new progressive hopefuls need to find another way of selling their message to the public that doesn't look like a re-tread of Michael Foot.
And forget about class definitions, many of the working class have shown recently that Nationalism trumps class solidarity anyway.
How about if we arranged it for you to have Nicola Sturgeon on a free transfer?
Corbyn and Co. We’re rubbish and did more damage to progressive politics than good.
This is just utter blinkered revisionist crap. Corbyn managed to get more people engaged with politics than ever before. Labour had the largest membership of any political party in Europe, under Corbyn. The impact Corbynism had on young people, was unprecedented in the UK. That we are now talking about the inequality in society due to the actions of wealthy powerful elites, isn't down to Ed Milliband, Gordon Brown and definitely not Tony Blair. It's down to Corbyn. He changed the conversation, and created genuine fear amongst the elites, so much so they spent many millions on bringing him down. He may have not wanted to become Labour leader, but the paucity of left wing figures, genuine opposition to right wing politics, is not his fault. That blame lies squarely at the feet of the neoliberals. And I don't know what your idea of 'progressive' is, but it definitely aint more of the same neoliberal shit Starmer seems intent on serving up. Blaming Corbyn is precisely what the right wants; keep the proles arguing amongst themselves, and distracted from what's really going on. It's time to change that stuck record, and look at what is actually progressive, and concentrate on that. And that has to be done without any help from the Labour leadership, because that's a rudderless ship. Labour need everyone from the 'far left' to the moderate right, if they are to stand any chance of challenging the tories. So far, all Starmer has done is alienate everyone who isn't part of his metropolitan elite cabal. Well done Sir Keith. That's going really well.
Nope, lived in England for 53 years. Yes, clearly some people do care but on the whole they just don’t.
How do you explain continual Tory governments getting voted in? Do you really think people that care about people who need the most help vote Tory?
You make the mistake of correlating a vote for the conservatives as somehow being uncaring.
I live in an area that has returned a conservative MP in my lifetime except when Blair was around, it's a Northern Mill town area with chronic deprivation, health inequalities etc. It has a labour local council, conservative county council and one of the conservative councillors was a former postman who raised £100,000's for local charities.
Tarring everyone with the "uncaring" trope for electing conservatives completely missed the complexity of a area which is changing rapidly and has more volunteer groups than you can shake a stick at. It also misses the complexity of the issues and how people think they should be fixed
An afterthought is perhaps the reason the conservatives do so well is that they don't go around insulting large numbers of the electorate, the left love to "other" anyone who don't agree with them, but how do you persuade them to vote for you if you treat them like that, and how do you get into power if people don't vote for you? Hence why despite having policies people might like, voters can't put an X in the box for a party that labels them as uncaring racist xenophobes
The evidence that Corbyn did more harm than good lies in mess he left the Labour Party in. If you noticed, I wasnt ctiticising progressive polocy, au contraire, I want to see progressive policies but recognise that if you tether those ideas to a donkey you're going nowhere.
You might also notice that I'm not suggesting Starmer is the answer either, all I'm asking for is someone with a bit of guile and a bit of wit.
And whilst Corbyn did manage to mobilise the youth somewhat, don't you think more recent events around social justice and Brexit would have mobilised the youth anyhow? Witness last summer's events where the youth mobilised and engaged all by themselves without instruction from Saint Jeremy. I don't think Jeremy Corbyn means anything to the youth anymore, they aren't looking to left wing Labour figures for guidance, they're looking for new voices.
Time for change.
2% of the voters of Hartlepool appear to agree with you
"Labour need everyone from the ‘far left’ to the moderate right, if they are to stand any chance of challenging the tories"
Correction, Labour need Anyone. Before you've even started campaigning you've discarded half the nation by limiting your outreach to those you deem 'acceptable' (echoing big n daft's point)
The Tories won (like they did with Thatcher) by engaging with all potential voters. It's how they wooed 'Essex man' in the 80's and how they converted the Northern Labour heartlands this time. Its also how Blair won....3 times.
The best way to win an election is to never mention class ever again, See people as individuals and never, ever other them.
The Tories won (like they did with Thatcher) by engaging with all potential voters.
I’m not sure that is true at all. But they did try and engage with as many as possible. You can not be a party of one class if you want to govern. This is not the 1940s.
To echo what some have said… every Conservative voter I know is also a volunteer*, they are not uncaring, but they do have a blind spot for what the government could and should do for the people they give up their own time to help. Or, they just think that things will be even worse for most people if Labour were in power. I disagree, but their motives are not purely based in self interest.
[ * obviously, that does not mean all volunteers vote Conservative, or that all Conservative voters are volunteers, so don’t start any of that nonsense ]
The impact Corbynism had on young people, was unprecedented in the UK.
it's an interesting one. millions of young first time voters went for Labour in 2017 on the back of the referendum, and then stayed away in even greater numbers in 2019 after they released that the Labour leadership lived in laa-laa land,
Blaming Corbyn is precisely what the right wants; keep the proles arguing amongst themselves, and distracted from what’s really going on. It’s time to change that stuck record, and look at what is actually progressive, and concentrate on that.
I think what the right wants is for people to keep playing the game ie Westminster, FPTP with Labour people spending their lives chuntering on about strategy/leaders.
Because thanks to freemarket capitalism and the media, the game is rigged in favour of the right. Or whichever party is happy to hold power while agreeing to do nothing of significance with it.
The inspiration should be the first political movement to represent the average person - the Chartists. They promoted a series of simple ways to improve people's lives - that had the power to turn society on its head. A democratic revolution.
It invigorated and inspired people.
It was smart, reasonable and rational.
It was gobby and provocative and fun.
scotroutes
Full Member
How about if we arranged it for you to have Nicola Sturgeon on a free transfer?
Thanks, but can you IMAGINE the British Press?
Her looks, her dress sense etc....she'd be slaughtered.
