I know there's a lot of Tallboy lovin' on here so this won't be surprising news I imagine. Ooooft:
SANTACRUZBICYCLES.COM No more VVP but that's the way things have been going with other new SC models so entirely expected. Will it matter? Probably not.
Given I've owned two Tallboys and Mrs a11y had a Tallboy LT, I fully expect it'd be my sort of bike. The problem is my current Tallboy 5 is just soooooo good there's no incentive to even consider a change. But in a few years maybe a discounted frame or secondhand bike.
I feel dirty for liking the rainbow/reflective downtube decals though 😛
The press/media coverage on this is hilarious.
The Tallboy 5, which was up until yesterday, the Goldilocks, the Unicorn, the best bike in the world ever according to the media... all of a sudden, theres loads of faults, poor ride traits, it feels a bit numb and dead, it was a bit heavy, etc etc....
TBF when I was looking for a trail type XC bike plenty of people on here said the TB was a bit of a lump and not really XC.
So is this proof that plenty of fancy suspension systems have been snake oil and actually the best design was nailed over twenty years ago (also see Cotic, Marin and others)?
Not related to the discussion, but Merlin are still doing some good deals on Tallboy 5s if anyone's on the lookout.
MERLINCYCLES.COM i am in the market, almost bought the TB5, glad i waited, as i think this will do the job very well!
black or purple frame..... tough call!
The Tallboy 5, which was up until yesterday, the Goldilocks, the Unicorn, the best bike in the world ever according to the media... all of a sudden, theres loads of faults, poor ride traits, it feels a bit numb and dead, it was a bit heavy, etc etc....
It's first class marketing by Santa Cruz 🙂
So is this proof that plenty of fancy suspension systems have been snake oil and actually the best design was nailed over twenty years ago
I think that it's proof that allowing Specialized to patent the Hurst Link caused problems for other bike companies and meant that they had to come up with alternatives and market them.
The patent on Horst link ran out in 2013 so it's been out of patent for longer that it was covered by patent in the time SC were using VPP.
Their suspension page now tells you why both systems are best!
I never owned a VPP Santa Cruz but the big advantage I could see was the simplicity of bearing replacements - they were all mounted within the linkage so you could removed that and do all the hammer and press work at the workbench with a vice (and if you did mess up the bearing seats presumably you'd only mess up the linkage and not the frame)
I don't know enough about suspension designs to know if this is bollocks or not, but have you read the Santa Cruz rep's (Josh Kissner) quotes on Pinkbike's 'first ride' of the new bike? Talks about curves and leverage and why they didn't go four-bar for the Nomad and I don't know if it's the truth or 'surprise surprise the 2027 Nomad has also gone four-bar! It's so much livelier on the trail/more planted/responsive in corners but stable in tech' is in our future.
So is this proof that plenty of fancy suspension systems have been snake oil and actually the best design was nailed over twenty years ago
I think it's more that ebikes are dominant, and brands are choosing their suspension platforms to work and package well for both the ebikes and normal bikes in their ranges.
I own a v5 and have done since the launch date 3 years ago , Its first real ride was the WestHighland way , and I wouldnt change it for the world especially for one that now is a cross between a smuggler privateer 141 and trek.
The V6 looks awful in my eyes . The none drive side cable boss looks like a nasty afterthought .. I wax to much but Im not a fan.
In frame bearings too... double ewww..
So is this proof that plenty of fancy suspension systems have been snake oil and actually the best design was nailed over twenty years ago (also see Cotic, Marin and others)?
I think it's more to do with people being less concerned/focussed/obsessed with pedal bob than 20 years ago. Well, that and longer dropper post insertion.
I think it's more to do with people being less concerned/focussed/obsessed with pedal bob than 20 years ago. Well, that and longer dropper post insertion.
And that shocks are so much better now.
I like the look of it, but because all of SCs trail/enduro frames have all had the same look for the last 10+ years it does kind of look like someone has put some Santa Cruz stickers on an Airwolf frame they got from AliExpress.
Sorry I forgot they make this year's launch have next year's number, pretend I said 2028!
Was this another planned GT release that's had a repaint / rebadge like the Vala (allegedly)?
Not related to the discussion, but Merlin are still doing some good deals on Tallboy 5s if anyone's on the lookout.
Cheaper here
Always really loved it in the white, the two dark colours for the new one feel like a step down. That bike above looks a bargain
I’m not sure why they have given it more travel. To me the whole point is that it’s a short travel bike, it won’t be long til people are putting lyrics on them
So is this proof that plenty of fancy suspension systems have been snake oil and actually the best design was nailed over twenty years ago (also see Cotic, Marin and others)?
I think it's more to do with people being less concerned/focussed/obsessed with pedal bob than 20 years ago. Well, that and longer dropper post insertion.
Don't tell that to those with an irrational hatred of single pivot bikes!
Was this another planned GT release that's had a repaint / rebadge like the Vala (allegedly)?
Interesting..... Would make some sense I guess?
I’m not sure why they have given it more travel. To me the whole point is that it’s a short travel bike, it won’t be long til people are putting lyrics on them
Exactly. It now has the same travel as my old 5010 or the Hightower of the same generation.
I guess xc race bikes are now longer 80mm travel and now occupy the travel range the Tallboy originally did.
SC range is getting a bit 'Orange' in the number of bikes and overlap there seems to be - will some rationalisation happen?
- Blur: 120f/115r 4-bar flex stays 29
- 5010: 140f/130r VPP mullet
- Tallboy 6: 140f/130r 4-bar 29
- Bronson: 160f/150r VPP mullet
- Hightower: 160f/150r VPP 29
- Megatower: 170f/165r VPP 29
- Nomad: 170f/170r VPP mullet
Writing that out's helped me understand the range. I didn't realise the Hightower had moved to that amount of travel, in my head it was a 130mm bike! Out of touch I guess.
I’m not sure why they have given it more travel. To me the whole point is that it’s a short travel bike, it won’t be long til people are putting lyrics on them
Yeah I don't understand the need to move it further into trail category with more travel. I am, however, guilt of overforking a with a 37mm chassis on my TB5 - admittedly at 140mm travel and weighing +50g on a Pike.
I read on Vital that the megatower and possibly the Hightower will be discontinued.
@chrismac Ive had Lyriks on mine since day 1 (and dont say anything but they are 150s ) Its still well under 30lb .Happy chasing road bikes around Saddleworth on a weekend or having a full round of Golife ( vid ref ) Really does mate me think they a need another bike at times .
So is this proof that plenty of fancy suspension systems have been snake oil and actually the best design was nailed over twenty years ago (also see Cotic, Marin and others)?
A suitable and adaptable design was patented in the early 90s and bagged by Specialized, everything since has been about patent avoidance. Those alternatives might do good things themselves but not in any major way and imho the majority of the marketing was explaining legal/IP needs. Now the FSR patent has expired it's become the go-to design, the VPP patent has also expired and had time for other brands to make bikes using it. I wonder why they're not - Dave Weagle probably has some convoluted US-only IP legalese covering a slight variation on the VPP : )
Its still well under 30lb
My scales are definitely dodgy! Mine's apparently 14.9kg/32.8lbs. Admittedly XXL but that's with 140mm Mezzer Pros, 1x12 XT, 4-pot XTs and 1550g wheels and 1kg tyres. Actually, that's not too bad looking back at what I've just written.
@chrismac Ive had Lyriks on mine since day 1 (and dont say anything but they are 150s ) Its still well under 30lb .Happy chasing road bikes around Saddleworth on a weekend or having a full round of Golife ( vid ref ) Really does mate me think they a need another bike at times .
I get it and they are super capable. Of If I only had one bike over forking it would be a consideration
Writing that out's helped me understand the range. I didn't realise the Hightower had moved to that amount of travel, in my head it was a 130mm bike! Out of touch I guess.
It's like cars, VWs keep getting bigger, until the Polo becomes the Golf sized one and they slot another one in below
I wonder why they're not - Dave Weagle probably has some convoluted US-only IP legalese covering a slight variation on the VPP : )
The US DW-Link patent (which was always separate to VPP) expired around two years after the VPP patent (2023-ish I think)
In the YT official SC video they explain the easy serviceability of the new frame. But people here highlight that the bearings are now in the frame which sounds like a step back. So is the new frame better or worse on that front?
Also they claim a 300g lighter weight than the old CC. My XL CC V5 is 3,270g with a Fox Factory shock so now under 3kg. Impressive.
But I don't think it looks as good which is more important
I'm not a Santa Cruz fan and I'm also general function over form...but I prefer the look of the white previous model than the new model - the shape of the new one doesn't look 'right' but I don't quite know why as it looks like a full suspension mountain bike.
Going by the chat about the bearings, that sounds like it is cheaper to make them the new way rather than the previous way...anything that tends to make it easier for the owner tends to mean it is more expensive/complex for the manufacturer to build.
In the YT official SC video they explain the easy serviceability of the new frame. But people here highlight that the bearings are now in the frame which sounds like a step back. So is the new frame better or worse on that front?
I'd say worse. All the bearings in our V5s are pressed into the upper and lower links - nothing direct into the frame. New V6 has bearings pressed into the frame. Slightly easier to remove the V5 links then work on the bearings than remove/refit bearings direct on the V6 frame. The lower link grease port is a BRILLIANT thing too. More importantly, if you cock up a bearing change all you do with the V5 is ruin the link - on the V6 you ruin the frame...
Geometron's have a similar approach with nothing pressed direct into the frame. Less risky for home spannerists.
“Those alternatives might do good things themselves but not in any major way”
Having wasted many an hour figuring out how bike suspension works, I think we’ve ended up with five things happening within a short time span:
1. FSR patent expiring
2. Damper/air spring designs getting good.
3. Long dropper posts becoming popular
4. Ebikes becoming popular
5. Geometry getting long in front centre and steep in seat tube.
Short link 4 bar and linkage driven single pivots generally outperform Horst links in braking stability but with bikes getting so long they’re less ”teetery”. And with fork dampers getting better it’s less of an issue.
Short link designs can make a bike pedal better without having tons of kickback deeper in the travel but with steeper seat tubes there isn’t as much of a battle to stop bikes bobbing uphill. Likewise better dampers help.
Horst link designs make it far easier to fit in a motor without having enormously long chainstays. Horst link designs make it easier to fit an uninterrupted straight seat tube for long droppers.
And also the Specialized marketing machine has made too many think that low brake squat is a good thing when it has both pros and cons…
I'm not a Santa Cruz fan and I'm also general function over form...
I wasn't either but behind the image and marketing, the actual product is second to none. QC, routing design, bearing servicing, clearance, finish, attention to detail etc etc
I now totally get it and will carry on buying SC despite the image.
I think that it's proof that allowing Specialized to patent the Hurst Link caused problems for other bike companies and meant that they had to come up with alternatives and market them.
The Hurst Link? Patent expired age ago.
They think it's all over. It is now.
the shape of the new one doesn't look 'right' but I don't quite know why as it looks like a full suspension mountain bike.
I think it's because if you scrubbed Santa Cruz off the downtube, you wouldn't have a clue what the hell it was. It could be any generic FS. With the old design, you would know instantly that it's a SC
Are they doing this shift because of economies of scale as they need that suspension system in their electric bikes anyway for packaging reasons?
Those white ones look like a decent deal for a full bike.
After our theft earlier this year & replacing our bikes, the one bike we replaced that was a bike I’d previously owned was the TB5. (The actual only non ebike I will own now).
Managed to find a very lightly used CC frame, shock, 36SL, Hydra/Reserve SL & a dropper post for under half that of the linked full bike. Put some spares on & away I went.
Haven’t weighed it, but it’s a very light build, based on my old Epic8 I would expect to be 3 to 4lbs heavier, so probably around 27/28lbs.
"Are they doing this shift because of economies of scale as they need that suspension system in their electric bikes anyway for packaging reasons?"
I doubt it. Probably more that using a Horst link in their ebikes didn't damage their brand and this system fits longer dropper posts and weighs less.
"Trek called, they want their design back."
There are dozens of bikes that look like the new Tallboy and are also Horst links (true four bar) but that Trek is one of the few that looks similar but has a different suspension system! 😉
