I would expect that outside of political nerds, most folk wouldn’t know who Ian Austin is. Corbyn was the reason Labour lost the last election, and that’s the start, middle and end of that story.
Ian Austin wrote an official letter posted directly though lots of voter letter boxes.
It was mainstream alright.
Labour’s more and more shrill spending pledges that seemed to be made up on the hoof was partly the reason they weren’t seen as “responsible” last time around. After the huge “spaffing up the wall” of all the COVID spending, I think voters will regard grand spending plans with even more suspicion next time around.
You have this back to front.
Labour went to great pains to suggest that their manifesto was fully financed.
That's the point right there. It is always fully financed if the government funds it - but Labour continued a narrative of having to come up with the money. (James Meadway - McDonnell's senior advisor at the time -is not an MMT proponent.)
By the way - roughly the same amount of money over a term of Labour government was proposed that the Tories have spent in 20/21.
The evidence is in front of you.
Gilded unicorn, is that the same as magic money tree or we can't spend our way out of a crisis, or belts need to be tightened, cut the fat, wasting taxpayers' money? 'Economics' from the DM?
Binners’ has distilled his world view of Socialism = Corbynism = Communism.
Solution: neolibralism!
You know I only equate socialism with Marxism to wind you lot up, right? 😃
Though, to be fair, a lot of voters do equate the two
Anyways... the problem you have here is that for an awful lot of people, I’d say a majority, neoliberalism has delivered them a nice comfortable standard of living, nice house in a nice area, nice Audi parked in the drive, good school to send the kids too, laptops and iPhones, a few grands worth of carbon fibre mountain bike to go and play on... etc, etc
So when those on the left spit the word out and start suggesting that we do away with that and try something else, most people’s reaction is “why would I want to do that?”
So until you accept that that’s you’re starting point, you’re on a hiding to nothing, I’m afraid.
If it’s as terrible as you say, people wouldn’t keep voting for it
It’s just a fact of how the monetary system works.
Sure (and how convenient that it's an economic system that seems to be in line with how we on the left see the world...) I doubt that Labour have got what it takes to change a whole country's perception of International capital markets in one election round, do you think they have?
Labour went to great pains to suggest that their manifesto was fully financed.
Right up until the point when the women's pension scandal broke, and they launched into spending pledges that made up the difference. Which then allowed the press and the Tories to make claims of making stuff up on the hoof (which Labour had done) and pledging un-accounted for spending (which they had also done). An elephant trap that Labour managed to gleefully walked into all by themselves...
It was mainstream alright.
Is he going to airbrushed out of photos with Corbyn as well when the official history comes to be written? Labour lost (by and large) because people didn't trust Corbyn to be PM, not because some z-list politician wrote a pamphlet that most people didn't see, or didn't notice at the time.
Kinell, who said socialism was taking your your bikes and houses away, monty f python? I suppose everyone will be wearing Mao suits for their Stakhanovite working day singing hymns to Trotsky and Lenin. Reminds me of the Spectator in the 70s, at least Auberon Waugh was a bit funny.
Labour lost (by and large) because people didn’t trust Corbyn to be PM
That and 'get Brexit done'. Trying to ignore the latter point makes you look rather silly. I seem to remember binners' great plan for the 2019 election was for Labour to wholeheartedly campaign for Remain and somehow that would have kept everyone on side.
I seem to remember binners’ great plan for the 2019 election was for Labour to wholeheartedly campaign for Remain
Fair point. But then “the voters don’t know what Labour stand for” was just as true then as it is now. Labour had a nuanced policy that allowed the voters to decide on the Brexit issue separately to the who should govern issue. A policy I supported and I still think made sense. It wasn’t three words, lying about a quick end to it all, and driving JCBs through fake walls though, was it. The clown wins. Maybe a more simple position and message may have delivered a better result. Who knows. Better wouldn’t have meant a majority though… that was never happening under Corbyn no matter who the Conservatives had as leader. There was a visceral dislike of him amongst voters well beyond whatever he was or wasn’t saying about Brexit.
That and ‘get Brexit done’.
At the time I put Brexit down as the only reason the tories won but now Brexit has been done (don't laugh) the voters are still seemingly living what the tories are doing. Explain that?
They've handed out loads of cash and they 'got Brexit done'. It's the populist dream for many people, big spending plus nasty divisive right-wing culture war.
I think there is an element of wartime 'pulling together' where criticising the government in a crisis is seen as unpatriotic and mean-spirited, which obviously they are only too happy to exploit, and SKS meekly plays along too.
Kinell, who said socialism was taking your your bikes and houses away, monty f python?
Who? The Tory Party, most, in fact pretty much all of the press and media, Cambridge Analytica, Russian bots on Twitter and loads and loads of expertly targeted and funded social media campaigns.
It’ll be even worse at the next election, so best to accept the reality of the task in hand for the Labour Party.
I seem to remember binners’ great plan for the 2019 election was for Labour to wholeheartedly campaign for Remain
Any credible position in either direction would have been a start, rather than being sat on the fence with your thumb up your arse, and a policy that bordered on farcical
The problem with Labour on Brexit goes back to the referendum campaign when the leaders ‘ringing endorsement’ of EU membership amounted to a surly and disinterested shrug, then going on holiday on his allotment for two months until he then demanded that article 50 be triggered immediately
The parties policy was an absolute dogs dinner right from the off, in stark contrast to ‘Take Back Control’ and ‘Get Brexit Done’ which surely everyone accepts couldn’t be clearer.
It might be a crock of shit but from a marketing/communications perspective it was genius and only served to highlight labours noncommittal dithering, led by a lifelong Brexiteer who by the last election just didn’t seem that bothered one way or the other
Idiot or bigot… place your bets now…
https://twitter.com/keir_starmer/status/1377977021452668930?s=21
That and ‘get Brexit done’. Trying to ignore the latter point makes you look rather silly.
Hadn't ignored it. Labour's own investigation revealed that:
The most predictive factors we found for switching away from Labour in 2019 were the view that a Corbyn-led government was the most serious danger facing the country
We found that the three main factors behind Labour’s losses were antipathy to the leadership (often associated with perceptions of weakness or incompetence, a shift to the far-left and/or antisemitism); Brexit-driven switching; and concerns about the affordability or credibility of the manifesto
So yes people didn't like/trust Corbyn but it wasn't the only reason. As we can also see quite clearly from 'safe pair of hands' Starmer's disastrous performance.
Labour still isn’t trusted. I’ve no idea how much that is down to Starmer.
Anyway, JesusHouse… is the association just because Starmer and his team have made an idiotic mistake, or are they playing to the homophobic tendencies amongst what was the UKIP support?
Starmer is in bed with racists and homophobes, and his cheerleader is still posting ancient material. I suppose it's a good fit.
Wow Kenny Everett was shit!
binner Full Member
It’s an absolute mystery to everyone why calling everyone ****s then telling them to vote for you doesn’t result in huge landslide electoral victories
It's a mystery to me how someone who had zero luck convincing anyone down their local pub is so totally convinced that he knows how to win a general election.
By your own admission you don't go to your local anymore after having a "massive barney" with the punters there and calling them all "bigots" before storming off. Should you really be giving lectures on how to win general elections?
Btw to help you cope with your stress levels you should perhaps consider moving down south binners, I'm sure you would find the clientele in the wine bars of Islington far more amiable and to your liking.
Evening comrade!
It’s great this. It’s like having my own biographer and therapist and life coach all at the same time
Cheers for the consultation 😃
You're welcome binners. To be fair you are the only person vaguely interesting in this otherwise now predictable echo chamber. Being able to go as far back as the days when I was grizzlygus I can remember a time before this place was politically cleansed. Diversity of opinion has now all but gone. I think it was kelvin who recently said that whatever your differences you all fundementally agree.
Cheers comrade!I’ll take that as a compliment.
To be fair though Ernie, I don’t think it’s a case of this place being politically cleansed, more that we just bored everyone into submission.
Nah, I don't think many people have changed their minds. It's just that anyone who used to support the Tories, or Brexit, or anything else which is at odds with the Guardian/
HuffPost/Independent agenda, doesn't post anymore. This place is simply too hostile for them.
Btw I checked and it was Poopscoop who made the comment, not kelvin.
It's only too hostile if you've no real answer.
I don't like those questions, so instead of answering i'm going to disappear.
Btw to help you cope with your stress levels you should perhaps consider moving down south binners, I’m sure you would find the clientele in the wine bars of Islington far more amiable and to your liking.
Just don't go too far South though otherwise you will have to mix with the wealthier racists who are ultimately no better than the thick racists and haven't even needed to switch to Tory as they were born Tory.
Although you will be near the coast where you can try and convince the tide to turn back.
Btw to help you cope with your stress levels you should perhaps consider moving down south binners, I’m sure you would find the clientele in the wine bars of Islington far more amiable and to your liking.
Or he could just walk 250m to the next pub/bar. Ramsbottom now has a Gregg's so Islington is a bit less attractive
It’s only too hostile if you’ve no real answer.
I don’t like those questions, so instead of answering i’m going to disappear.
Nah... its a niche cycling forum, do you really think your opinions are that important? nobody is putting the world to rights here...bit like twitter really, just a bit of entertainment
When I first came here we had a Labour government, the UK was in the EU, and people with a wide range of political opinions were arguing furiously on STW.
The arguing on STW has now subsided and everyone aggrees that Brexit is bad and so are all Tory governments. And yet as you can see that has failed to profoundly affect British politics. Despite the now universal consenus on STW, after years of arguing, the UK has left the EU and we have a Tory government.
Obviously some people are bitterly disappointed and want to, for example, argue against Brexit everyday from now until eternity. However I'm not sure why they think a Brexit supporter would want to do the same.
Or he could just walk 250m to the next pub/bar.
I think you might have missed the point that binners was trying to make on the Hartlepool thread big_n_daft. He wasn't trying to suggest his local pub was somehow unique, on the contrary, he was suggesting the complete opposite ie attitudes in his local are very typical of that part of the world.
I'm afraid that walking 250m to the next pub isn't an option for binners. A trendy wine bar in Islington where he can sit down and read his Guardian in comfort would be a much better option.
Bloody hell!
All this thread has succeeded in doing now is make me wish that this afternoon I could have a stroll down to my local (the Irwell Works Brewery, so not very Islington Wine Bar, I’m afraid Ernie) and just sit with a pint or three and the Guardian
*sigh*
Actually, while we’re on the subject, one of the retired blokes, Phil, who I tend to chat to a lot when we used to go to the pub (remember that?) was passing yesterday, so we sat and had a beer and a catch up in our garden
You’d love him Ernie, but he is labours problem in microcosm. He’s a proper old school socialist of the Tony Benn school, get him on the subject of the EU and you could be listening to Nigel Farage. He’s a rabid Brexiteer.
I strongly suspect that despite identifying as a socialist, he voted Tory last time out, such was his dislike for our very remainy Labour MP, thus delivering us our new Tory MP with his paper-thin majority.
Will he and people like him return to Labour? Who knows?
the problem you have here is that for an awful lot of people, I’d say a majority, neoliberalism has delivered them a nice comfortable standard of living, nice house in a nice area, nice Audi parked in the drive, good school to send the kids too, laptops and iPhones, a few grands worth of carbon fibre mountain bike to go and play on… etc, etc
The problem with all this, is that this was all 'delivered' via cheap credit, and with cheap goods made possible by cheap overseas exploited labour, via privatisation of the education system ('academies'), the sell off of public resources, and a strong pound bolstered by Western imperialism. The reality of all this, which is only now sinking in for most, is a grossly overinflated housing market, a shrinking economy, less decent paying jobs, shoddily built housing, poor maintenance of existing infrastructure, failing schools and increasing debt. That's before we even go anywhere near the genocide and demonisation of 'others'. So we're now looking at the yawning chasm of increasing personal debt, negative equity, homelessness, joblessness, collapsing public services, education and healthcare, and steadily increasing costs of all those previously cheap goods.
So that's worked out well. Still waiting for any Starmerists to explain how their Lord and Saviour is going to reverse all this, and deliver the neoliberal utopia that Blair promised us.
The problem with all this, is that this was all ‘delivered’ via cheap credit, and with cheap goods made possible by cheap overseas exploited labour, via privatisation of the education system (‘academies’), the sell off of public resources, and a strong pound bolstered by Western imperialism.
And you seriously think that most people care about that as they sign the lease deal on their new Audi and upgrade their iphone to the latest model, while ordering a takeaway from Deliveroo?
You think that going in to an election saying that all this is evil and needs to stop is going to deliver you power?
Good luck with that
The reality of all this, which is only now sinking in for most,
It really isn't sinking in, slowly or rapidly, with 'most' people at all. Hence the last election result. As long as they keep getting new shiny things to play with, 'most' people don't appear to give a shit about any of that.
At the risk of getting repetitive (perish the thought!) - we need to deal with the world as it is, not with how we'd like it to be
And you seriously think that most people care about that as they sign the lease deal on their new Audi and upgrade their iphone to the latest model, while ordering a takeaway from Deliveroo?
No. The vast majority only care about the 'now'. The problem with that, is that 10, 20 years down the line, you're ****ed. Or rather; your kids are, because they're the ones who can't afford housing, education, access to decent healthcare etc. And are in debt.
You think that going in to an election saying that all this is evil and needs to stop is going to deliver you power?
Is a good point. So what's Sir Keith's plan?
At the risk of getting repetitive (perish the thought!) – we need to deal with the world as it is, not with how we’d like it to be
Problem is, we aren't; all those problems I mentioned, are real, and they're here, right now. We're 24 years on from 'Cool Britannia', and things can only get shitter. Unless there is a seismic shift in public attitudes. You've got to start somewhere; maintaining the status quo will be disastrous. So again; what's Sir Keith's plan?
Problem is, we aren’t; all those problems I mentioned, are real, and they’re here, right now. We’re 24 years on from ‘Cool Britannia’, and things can only get shitter. Unless there is a seismic shift in public attitudes. You’ve got to start somewhere; maintaining the status quo will be disastrous.
So how do you propose achieving that seismic shift in public attitudes?
Well, railing against it won't achieve anything. We know that. Piously lecturing people and telling them they're wrong about everything and need to change their ways just breeds resentment. It certainly won't get you elected, thats for sure. Otherwise the Green party would be in Government. This country is a (small c) conservative place and people hate being told what to do at the best of times. See all the 'Nanny State' headlines when the most modest changes are proposed by government
So again; what’s Sir Keith’s plan?
I would imagine that it's similar to what Biden has done in the States. Try not to scare the horses and show yourself to be a safe pair of hands, then once in power go on to deliver a far more radical agenda than you originally proposed, which has largely been met with approval even from Republicans.
I certainly hope so, anyway
From this mornings Guardian:
How Biden's $2tn infrastructure plan seeks to achieve racial justice
Still waiting for any Starmerists to explain how their Lord and Saviour is going to reverse all this,
That seems like a reasonable criticism...I don't like Starmer because in the year or so since his rise to the leadership of an fraction-ridden opposition party he's not come up with a credible plan to reverse the decline of western capitalisation that's been steadily getting worse sine the 1970's...I mean, what's he been doing with his time? I can see why one wouldn't vote for a slacker like that.
So how do you propose achieving that seismic shift in public attitudes?
Snowball effect. You start small, with local level campaigning/boots on the ground activism. The Women's Suffrage movement started with a small group of dedicated activists. The US Civil Rights Movement gained huge momentum because one woman sat in the 'wrong' seat on a bus. It's about showing people what CAN be achieved, and galvanising them into believing something can work. History has shown what change can be achieved from the smallest of actions.
I would imagine that it’s similar to what Biden has done in the States. Try not to scare the horses and show yourself to be a safe pair of hands, then once in power go on to deliver a far more radical agenda than you originally proposed, which has largely been met with approval even from Republicans.
And you genuinely believe Sir Keith can/would do that, do you?
He's made his position very clear on banks, landlords, nurses' pay, foreign affairs, protests, Mandelson's talking about a low-tax low-spend LP. Where's the problem? People elected one tory government, it's unlikely that they will shift their preference to another tory government, hence his position in the polls.
If you wanted to see change and challenge injustice without an election on the horizon you would campaign and fully support workers trying to defend their living standards and jobs and defending the right to protest as part of the democratic process....
And you genuinely believe Sir Keith can/would do that, do you?
It's not a matter of belief, but yeah I think he can. And for those on the thread saying "Tory lite", it would be significantly better than the successive Tory heavy governments delivered by his predecessor.
I would imagine that it’s similar to what Biden has done in the States.
The reason Biden has been able to do what he is doing is because he engaged with the left of his party and created some semblance of unity before the election which enabled him to win it, and then followed through on his promises to address the issues which were important to the left which created the environment which enabled them to get through congress.
Starmer has done the exact opposiite to what Biden did, and hasn't got a hope of repeating Biden's success. Not that he wants to anyway, because as I've said many times, Starmer and his rightwing travellers have already achieved what they set out to do. There is no plan to win an election because they have no ambition to so.
Yes agreed, he's been useless so far but you have to give him to the election.
He could do a David Moyes.
because he engaged with the left of his party
True. But they were up for that engagement. Of course, them backing him happened during an election campaign, when minds were focused on uniting to unseat an incumbent incompetent right wing administration. Perhaps in the UK they’ll get behind someone new taking the reigns of the Labour Party close to an election… if the party has the sense to replace Starmer then (unlikely). This far out from an election, the battle is still on for revenge over Corbyn and Long-Bailey being pushed aside. The Conservatives aren’t facing a united front from the left… they aren’t facing much that will concern them at all in fact. Labour continue to be a gift for Johnson.
True. But they were up for that engagement.
And those in the labour party weren't? Despite voting for him in their tens of thousands?
The membership voted for him, yes. Then the Corbyn and Long-Bailey stuff happened and many on “the Left” (not necessarily party members) turned on Starmer big time.
Then the Corbyn and Long-Bailey stuff happened and many on “the Left” (not necessarily party members) turned on Starmer big time.
Given the fact that the primary promise in his leadership campaign was to 'unify' the party and resolve previous factional differences, it's strange that members on the left decided he wasn't to be trusted when almost immediately he sacked his defeated left wing opponent, kicks the previous left wing leader out of the party whilst insinuating that everyone on the left who supports him is a racist, and then starts expelling long serving left wing members and activists from the party for protesting the fact. I literally have no idea why 'the left' turned on him, clearly they were being way too paranoid with their 6th form bunker mentality. It's tragic really, because had they not turned on him, they could have got fully behind his promised radical progressive policies... oh.
when almost immediately he sacked his defeated left wing opponent, kicks the previous left wing leader out of the party
You make it sound like he didn't have good reason to do so.
He had very good reason in both cases
They were both stupid and pig-headed when caught on the wrong side of a particularly sensitive argument. They've nobody to blame but themselves, no matter how many lefty toys come flying out of the cot.
With their stubborn refusal to simply offer an apology for their stupidity they both left him absolutely no option. I'm afraid thats the reality once you remove your tinfoil helmet and leave your bunker.
If you want to defend Corbyn or Wrong-Daily and portray this as some terrible injustice then fine, but don't expect many to agree with you outside the other sixth form cult members.
It’s just more of the same self-anointed victim status ‘the left’ seem to love wallowing in and the imagined conspiracies they see at every turn
