I think surfer is spot on here.
For those looking to get a better technique I'd advise running a 5k everyday for the month of October.
Run on feel everyday. If you're tired, run slower. Feeling good, run faster. Just make sure you go out and run.
What do you mean by "good technique" and how will you know it when you see it?
I'll know if a change in technique results in an improvement, because it'll feel easier, and I'll go faster. I'm interested in efficiency and speed of course. I'm not interested in looking good 🙄
I am sure but by striving for "technique" or some "magic bullet" I think you are missing the point that hard work brings the reward.
Umm....... If I wasn't interested in hard work I wouldn't be running at all, would I? Running is hard work full stop.
Thinking about technique is important. As I've also stated many times, it can be the difference between hating and enjoying. I've done plenty of training, and it helps, but figuring out better technique can have dramatic and instant results.
I can only conclude that you, surfer, and the others who say 'just run' have never been in my position. That of an otherwise fit determined person who's shit at distance running.
My ability to run further and faster with less injuries came about through practice, and with that came the muscular development [b]and form[/b] to accommodate high work loads.
Yes. And form. Form doens't just magically appear, at least not for everyone. Maybe for some I don't know.
This never happens on swimming threads...
For those looking to get a better technique I'd advise running a 5k everyday for the month of October.
What have you been smoking?
I can only conclude that you, surfer, and the others who say 'just run' have never been in my position. That of an otherwise fit determined person who's shit at distance running.
Dont conclude that I am good at it but the difference between being "shit" and "less shit" will be determined by the training you are doing. Anyway made my point, good luck Molly 🙂
Out of interest how much distance are you doing per week and do you do any mixed pace Fartlek type stuff?
Ha.What have you been smoking?
I tried intervals. Nothing complicated or super-fast, just 5 x 4min/km with 2 mins rest/recovery. I do five to ten minutes of circuits style warm-up so, some side steps in and out, some press-ups, some burpees and some knees up-heels up stuff. My warm down is a slow jog home for 5 minutes (apart from when I pass my competitive neighbour's window when I speed up and push my chest out in case he's watching 🙂 ). I can confirm that they have sped me up.
The only technique based thing I've tried is to imagine a line projecting out from my sternum and not letting my hands cross that line, working my arms a bit more and relaxing my hands from a tightish grip.
Funnily enough mol, when I run fast during the interval, all these things happen naturally. And my body learns to run a bit faster. Just going for a run has never helped apart from making it easier to just go and do something instead of having a bar of chocolate.
If your quads and glutes are sore from doing intervals (you will be doing them won't you?), run a cold shower over them for five minutes and have a glass of chocolate milk.
I try to do one 5-10k a week, one sprint session and one tempo session, but sometimes only two of those. Or none...
Without sorting out my form, all that training was a waste. My form was originally so bad that I hated every step. That's why I never used to do any running. I'm really not imagining it. Fixing terrible form really did result in huge improvements immediately. Training is obviously vital too, but you need both.
No point in putting a highly tuned race engine in a car with flat tyres and knackered shocks. You won't win any races and it won't be fun to drive either.
do you do any mixed pace Fartlek type stuff?
Why would he do that? That would be training, working to improve, doing things to get better just isn't fun. Much better to just get out there and run free and naked, and wait to be magically transformed into an elite athlete.
Good thread 🙂 i don't run but i do a lot of gym and bike work and have bought into the foam rolling / stretching routine to relieve muscle stiffness and soreness for a long time. Reading some of those links and then further ones linked from them has got me thinking about why i do it and the benefits or lack of.
I wont be changing my routine much as i know it definitely works for me, but it really opened my eyes to the so called benefits of the rollers.
Strange as i really do feel so much better and less stiff after using it.
*skips to the end*
Anyone have a decent method for sorting out a peroneal tendon issues, mostly peroneus brevis , as it's been hampering me for months now 😐
Edit: 100!
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Intervals are the single best use of training time. If you do little else then run intervals. Them and hill sessions. Everything else is just "padding" as a good mate of mine used to say (who was a good runner)
Emil Zatopek used them to devastating effect 😀
I try to do one 5-10k a week, one sprint session and one tempo session, but sometimes only two of those. Or none...
That there illustrates your problem beautifully. You wouldn't start putting sprint sessions into a mountain bike training programme without first building up the base by spending time on the bike....
You would go out and ride your bike and mess about with it until you are comfortable on the bike. Running is the same. Keep your clothes on though.
Anyone have a decent method for sorting out a peroneal tendon issues, mostly peroneus brevis , as it's been hampering me for months now
Yip - strengthen tibialis posterior.
Yip - strengthen tibialis posterior.
Righto.
Any recommend exercises?
You wouldn't start putting sprint sessions into a mountain bike training programme without first building up the base by spending time on the bike....
That's why I reckon he should run 5k a day for a while.
Chuck in some pick ups or intervals if he wants. But just get some volume of running under the belt.
try something like
try to not lose the will to live when watching the video.
That's why I reckon he should run 5k a day for a while.
One way ticket to injury that one...
I've been doing these with a physio band on Gluptons advice. They certainly hurt muscles you dont know you have for a few days!
Surfer - You seeing any improvements?
One way ticket to injury that one...
Not if you're sensible. It's next to no distance, but walk some of them if you have to.
Only adds up to 35k a week so after a month you'll have a good base.
Not if you're sensible. It's next to no distance, but walk some of them if you have to.
Lets take molgrips as an example - he's doing 5-10k/week with a couple of other things thrown in sometimes. For him to do 35km/wk would be anything between a 700% increase and a 200% increase. Never a good idea.
Here's what actually happened, in actual real life:
Training without thinking about form = utter misery
Think about form, make some changes
Training = much much more fun, I do more of it, I introduce intervals and get much much better than I ever had been, quite quickly.
I still fail to see what I've done wrong. My running has improved greatly.
You would go out and ride your bike and mess about with it until you are comfortable on the bike. Running is the same. Keep your clothes on though.
Still can't work out who this sarcams is directed at.
That there illustrates your problem beautifully.
What problem is that? I don't have a problem.. any more..
See... I have an image of Molgrips in my mind as a sort of slighlty more amusing, yet balding, Eddie Izzard.
If he can start running marathons everyday...
Good - I'm happy for you. 😀
Lets take molgrips as an example - he's doing 5-10k/week with a couple of other things thrown in sometimes. For him to do 35km/wk would be anything between a 700% increase and a 200% increase. Never a good idea.
Whoa there, sounds like your applying some sort of steady increase in mileage principle to running load there, that's not fun, much better to just go out and splash around in some puddles, that's the best way to improve.
The three types of session described by Molly are the staples of all endurance type events. By simply applying them at the right pace/intensity anyone will improve. It is that simple.
How much and how quickly will depend on a whole bunch of things, background to exercise, genes, natural talent, technique level.
However as has been said running based speed work will generally increase your efficiency and thus "improve" your technique.
Generally speaking people with good technique make their sport look easy, however there are a fair few examples of that not being true, Paula's arm carriage/head movement for one.
If its working, then keep doing it.
As other runners are saying - just put the miles in, long and slow 6 days a week, I didn't do any speedwoork until about 6 weeks out from the great north run this year but was pounding out about 50 miles a week since January and racing on the fells every couple of weeks, no track sessions, no tempo runs until the goal race approached.. The speedwork tuned me up great for the race, but no need to focus on it whislt you build a base IME. I always did too much in previous years and would always end up injured or overtrained.
With this approach I knocked 5 mins of my half marathon PB this year and did 1:21.
Long slow miles are boring as hell but they work, if you do lots
And the long slow miles approach is the other school of thought.
Personally I find it de-motivational and injury inducing, especially for the newbie. However I'd guess 80% or "runners" build their base this way so it clearly works.
Lots of long slow miles... Recipe for grim, in my book. Shuffling zombie isn't my favourite passtime.
Check out these 2 guys training for Frankfurt, most of their running is just long (relativley) slow miles, track once a week and the long run on sunday is often faster than the rest
http://www.strava.com/athletes/1194096
http://www.strava.com/athletes/2461157
Surfer - You seeing any improvements?
Yes a little thanks Glupton. Managed a steady 5 miles last night with no reaction this morning. Aim to continue that into the weekend then maybe increase early next week. The eccentric exercise seem to be having a real affect now 😀
And the long slow miles approach is the other school of thought.
This is a misnomer. Lots of people and mags have used this term for well "long VERY slow distance"!
The "slow" is and needs to be a relative term. There has to be a "training" and adaptation affect. If you are simply running very slowly you are wasting your time and increasing your chance of developing an injury for very little (if any) benefit.
Even weekly long runs should be run at a manageable pace but be taxing to some extent. Top athletes who have used this technique term "slow" as a pace that not many of us can manage. There is very little "training" being done by many people I see out at weekends in large groups chatting and shuffling along. Social running is fine and good luck to them but they are not "training"
If you use LSD to build a base then thats fine. But it needs to be done at a pace that brings about physiological change.
Yes slow is relative, for me its 7:00 to 7:30 min miles when a race will be 5:30 to 6:15. This is where a HR monitor came in useful for me, I to ensure I am in the right training zone and not going too fast or slow I am for 150-155bpm on a general run, whereas my threshold is around 177
Training? adaptation affect? a pace that brings about physiological change?
What happened to "just run"?
It seems that you were using a quick soundbite of advice, that is actually the opposite of what you actually do.
Yes slow is relative, for me its 7:00 to 7:30 min miles when a race will be 5:30 to 6:15
Thats it exactly. So many people think they can simply move at a pace slightly faster than walking and kid themselves they are following a prescribed training method. I shudder to think how fast Peter Snell's LSD runs where 😯
Lydiard would be turning in his grave!
It seems that you were using a quick soundbite of advice, that is actually the opposite of what you actually do.
I have ignored you remarks and everybody else seem to have done the same thing. If you want to make a point go ahead just dont be an arse.
Just bought 2 new pairs of trainers, on a crossbread for road(40%,60%) trail and a pair of minimalist jobbies just for the road.
Let you know after the weekend how I got on with the minimalist(s)
Just pointing out how you preached "just run" with statements like
Your over thinking it. Just go out and run and it will take care of itself
but it turns out that isn't what you do, you clearly don't like having it pointed out, but making misleading statements as advice that you don't follow yourself could really be considered being an arse.
but it turns out that isn't what you do
Where did I say that this was what I do? please tell?
I said that in response to Molly who was talking about technique. That advice stands and Molly and I have a different view of "technique" also Molly has explained that he is relatively new to running so his and my requirements would be different.
I do "just run" but it has a purpose and within that running I adopt a number of different things, intervals, a lot of Fartlek and some very long runs.
I am not sure why you think my statement is incompatible with the things I have said since.
I'm doing 8:30mins miles on my weekend LSR just so I know I'm doing under 2 hours for a 1/2.
Can do 7mins mile for a 10k but haven't been doing much speedy stuff recently, loving going long distance 🙂
Molly, I'm not a natural runner, took me ages to get from running round the block in one to wanting to cry thinking my legs and lungs were in fire, but I'm a bit obsessive about stuff so just kept on at it. To quote the masked man " thank you, I've worked long and hard to become so"
The thing is, when I was a shuffling zombie, I was actually pretty fit from a cycling point of view. Having a high level of general fitness, but still being unable to do more than a zombie shuffle after about 3/4 mile or 2 miles in under 20 mins told me something was missing from the picture.
Turns out it was technique that was missing. As I said, surfer and I mean different things when talking about technique. He's talking about the finer points of running fast, but I don't think he's ever experienced running from my starting point.
If you want to know what good running technique looks like, or any movement pattern for that matter, look at young kids and see how they move.
Not sure I agree with that. It takes many years to refine motor control, depending on what you end up doing.
I've got two kids, both really young, and they do things completely differently with a completely different innate aptitude.
I didn't expect you to agree with it.
Squat like a baby.
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Lol that's genius!
Kids running. 😀
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Some of whom are striking their heels way out in front of them.. I have no idea where you are going with this... some kids are crap runners, some are great.
It's the new pedialithic running technique.
There's a diet to go with it that sucks tits.
