molgrips - Member
the idea of support to 'correct' over or under pronation was bobbins.
+1 in theory and practice but allows runners to be sold stuff they dont need!
Yep, but a thick heel makes it a bit harder for obvious reasons
+1 again. I find that Asics DS trainers/race are a very good balance. Pretty flat, some cushioning for longer runs (trainers more than race), no barefoot BS mark-up, and work a treat.
Why the need to argue over stretching? All pretty odd IMO. The body needs to warm up and cool down - just pick appropriate exercise/stretches to suit. FWIW, as I have got older I find stretching and warming down more important but not at the expense of excluding a warm up.
My answer was the best realistic answer that there is. Anyone who claims to know the exact process is talking nonsense.
I always imagined you as a small, wiry character mol
Haha... Well I'm not particularly fat as such.. Just sort of dense, really, and a bit fat 🙂
Re the shoes, I've found that my NB minimus trail really do let my foot flex and work, which I quite like. I'm not going to claim it'll prevent injuries, I don't know. The lack of cushioning gives me some sore spots at times but cushioning now feels so wrong that I will put up with that. I can't see me doing anything other than getting a new pair when these wear out.
emsz - MemberWeird, I tried flat shoes and they just hurt, thought it was me but speaking with people in my running club, loads of us have tried them and all of us have gone back to regular padded shoes, even the fast guys
That's because TEH EVIL SHOE INDUSTRY has ruined your feet already, so you need to keep buying their expensive shoes (incidentally, it's absolutely fine to use this argument even when you're wearing more expensive minimal or "barefoot" shoes)
Minimal shoes aren't necessarily more expensive are they? I'm sure mine were the same price as ordinary shoes.
Nope, but they can be more expensive (I got the "teh industry is forcing you to wear expensive shoes!!1!oNE!" while wearing my £30 decathlon numbers)
glupton, that was genuinely interesting. more of these type of threads would be great. i may even ask questions...
As well as running for too many years to count I worked in a specialist shoe shop for 3 years part time whilst at Uni.
The shoe people walked out with is usually the one I sold them! that may or may not have been the best shoe for them.
I always did my best to understand the person and their requirements but it is rubbish to think that going to a specialist shoe shop has much value other than being able to try on a range of shoes.
Normal shoes can be super expensive pseudo high tech bolleaux too though can't they?
Surely it's just a case of over marketing, just like any other kit in any sport?
Normal shoes can be super expensive pseudo high tech bolleaux too though can't they?
What do you mean by "normal"? Considering the tech that goes into them I dont know if they are poor value, some of them certainly have questionable technology. I mainly tun in Nike Air shoes as I like the forefoot cushioning and they are almost always neutral. Although I have had pronation control shoes as well but given there is little heel contact when I run its academic.
just like any other kit in any sport?
Yes and no. Buying an over marketed piece of clothing is one thing but shoes are very important during running and can have a serious affect on your well being. Although other than things like those 5 fingers jobbies most shoes designed for running are unlikely to cause you injury even if they do cause blisters etc if you get it wrong.
Well VFF is an interesting idea.. I think the principle of those is that they deliberately make it so uncomfortable to heel strike heavily that it forces you not to do it - rather like running in bare feet on tarmac.
In theory at least.
Just went for a run, picking one's feet up really makes a huge difference.
surfer - Member
Considering the tech that goes into them....
Really?
picking one's feet up really makes a huge difference.
Particularly when you consider the alternative 🙂
Well you can pick them up just enough to clear the ground, or you can pick them up a lot higher...
A "lot" higher is wasteful
but, with your foot lifted higher, your leg is 'shorter', and therefore easier to swing forwards.
if the energy required to lift your foot is less than the energy required to swing your shortened leg forward, then you're better off with a high lift.
(there's a lot of factors to consider, there's probably a graph/phd or 2 in there somewhere.)
Anything that is not propelling you forward is generally a waste of energy. I have a mate who is a lot fitter than me. We recently did a 5km race together, having never run together before. I saw from the start that his running style was about the least efficient I've ever seen. Due to this I spent 4.5km toying with him, before leaving him for dead. I eventually beat him by about 30 seconds.
The difference - my technique is much more efficient - my running club at school Steve Ovett as a coach while I was there.
but, with your foot lifted higher, your leg is 'shorter', and therefore easier to swing forwards.
Yeah, much easier, it seems. But again this is probably one of those things that depends on the person. My legs are hue and very heavy, so letting my feet come up closer to my bum seems to really help the leverage. And it's not really lifting them up, it's easy to let them sort of swing that way on their own.
It also seems to be easier to 'engage my glutes'.. at least I think.
Maybe I should make a video 🙂 The flicking up of feet seems to happen automatically if I go faster, so running faster is now much easier, but simultaneously much harder. I hit the limits of my lungs whilst my legs are still happy.
It also seems to be easier to 'engage my glutes'..
If it was you that I was advising on this before then you should really post a before and after video so we have a comparison.
It was me, and once I can figure out how to video myself I will 🙂
One of our finest! Not worrying about "engaging" his Glutes, just being awesome! 😉
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God, I shuffle along barely raising my feet off the Tarmac LOL!
Thinking about the price, my Innov8 F195 were the most I've ever paid for running shoes and they were £90! I've gone back to regular cheapy addidas ( they seem to be most comfy for me) at £35 in the sale ( they're red and orange, awful colours but cheap!!
I paid about $70 odd for my fancy gullible idiot over hyped nonsense NB shoes.
Emsz you leg probably weighs as much as my arm.
I saw a video by Joe Friel about running technique which certainly suggested that a high(ish) leg lift is more efficient. The basic theory of which was that you lift your leg up and basically fall forwards letting gravity pull your leg down to make contact with the ground and scoot your foot backwards, not overextending the backwards motion to push off.
I probably haven't explained it very well there, and from what I recall it was more about running efficiency for running a marathon at the end of an ironman, where energy conservation is more important than generating the speed of a 1500 metre runner.
I'd heard that falling forward was good but always found it hard to do. Bringing my feet up higher seems to make it easier and more natural.
Your over thinking it. Just go out and run and it will take care of itself
Your over thinking it. Just go out and run and it will take care of itself
Maybe you naturally have a good running technique. Personally I am a big guy with size 50 feet, not really built for the endurance sports that I have grown to enjoy, and finding small improvements in technique can add up.
As Surfer says - go out and run and the rest will take care of itself. I vary my technique during my runs, sometimes I go for the high cadence shuffle that some marathon runners use to great effect, sometimes I go for the short lever approach that has been mentioned a few posts back (bringing swinging foot close to arse) and sometimes just to show me how inefficient it is I go for a higher knee approach. Try varying your running style - you'll soon find out what works for you. There are no definites in exercise.
As Surfer says - go out and run and the rest will take care of itself. I vary my technique during my runs, sometimes I go for the high cadence shuffle that some marathon runners use to great effect, sometimes I go for the short lever approach that has been mentioned a few posts back (bringing swinging foot close to arse) and sometimes just to show me how inefficient it is I go for a higher knee approach. Try varying your running style - you'll soon find out what works for you. There are no definites in exercise.
That's quite a contradiction, you say just go out and run, then explain how you work on different techniques to see which works best.
It's not a contradiction when you think about it. I go out and just ride my bike, part of just just riding my bike is dicking about to try different things and see how they work out. Think of it as the ministry of silly runs.
Maybe you naturally have a good running technique
I do 😀 It came about through years of running every day and plenty of faster running on the track. It doesnt mean I am fast but form comes with use. I am not having a pop but generally form comes with more mileage and particularly with higher speed running as inefficiencies naturally iron themselves out.
Thats my experience
No matter how you try to word it, "trying different things to see how they work out" is working on your technique.
I do It came about through years of running every day and plenty of faster running on the track. It doesnt mean I am fast but form comes with use. I am not having a pop but generally form comes with more mileage and particularly with higher speed running as inefficiencies naturally iron themselves out.
Thats my experience
Yeah, but some of us don't have that background and would like to shortcut the process by learning from the experience of others. I admit it can be hard to work through the guff to get to the real good information, but also just ignoring all the available information and pretending that good technique just comes natural is bollocks.
I would like to do an ironman next year, there is no way I will be able to do that if I don't try and learn to improve the way I run. I can do the cycle leg, I have learned what cadence works for me, as that is the one I have been doing for quite a while. I have clear goals about improving my swimming technique. Why should I treat running any different
Your over thinking it. Just go out and run and it will take care of itself
I'm really not, I'm just doing the same as Glupton. Varying stuff to see what works.
If I had never thought about it, I would not be running as I would have given up due to hating the whole experience. Those who are naturally good runners have no concept of how ****ing grim it can be for others!
I would like to do an ironman next year, there is no way I will be able to do that if I don't try and learn to improve the way I run.
My advice to you would be to go out and dick about with your running style - see what works best for you.
I've sat and watched this one, to see how it goes...
Running Myths Exploded
Or, in other words, "some guy on the internet disagrees with what has, until now, been a matter of general opinion".
Do what works for you, and feel free to ignore numpties who disagree - whether or not they have a youtube video that says so.
To be fair he's done a wee bit of training. http://www.drandyfranklynmiller.com/
My advice to you would be to go out and dick about with your running style - see what works best for you.
So, work on my technique then 😆
Call it what you want. Play at the ministry of funny runs. You'll enjoy it more than working on technique. 😀
Last summer I was recovering (slowly) from a back injury and found that I couldn't run hard at all but could plod reasonably comfortably.
I decided to give FFS running a go and gradually changed my style. I got some minimal Merrels for about £20 and run once a week(ish) in them and the rest of the time in neutral shoes. My running style has tilted forward a fair bit during that time.
The biggest benefit seems to be the increase in strength in my ankles and calves. If I almost go over on an ankle now it's usually ok. A couple of years ago if I did that Id have to have a week off running with an ankle strain.
It's true that we have to find what works for us individually but I find it hard to argue against the human biology argument for barefoot running....although actually running in bare feet where I live would be asking for trouble.
and pretending that good technique just comes natural is bollocks.
You do realise I didnt say this dont you
would like to shortcut the process
You wont get far by doing the above and reading about it on the internet 😯
Those who are naturally good runners have no concept of how **** grim it can be for others!
Who are these "naturally good runners" Molly. Do you mean the ones who go out rain or shine and plug away? the more I train the luckier I get and all that 🙄
Who are these "naturally good runners" Molly. Do you mean the ones who go out rain or shine and plug away?
No, I mean those who start jogging and can easily knock out 7.30 miles as soon as they start. Like people I know.
The naturally bad runners are the ones who are pleased as punch having trained like hell to do one single mile under 8 mins. They also exist.
The same people I played football, athletics, basketball and everything else with at school, who I was every bit as fit as, the ones who on cross country runs handed my arse to me on a plate. They are the ones with natural technique. Same as I had natural technique in all the sports I was good at.
We know technique is important. I don't understand your point. Are you saying NOT to bother trying to improve technique? If you are imagining me spending my life subscribing to fads I've read about on the internet, I'm not. I run, I think about what I could do better, I read about it, discuss it, I take advice, and I've improved massively.
Still failing to see what I'm doing wrong.
Glupton, thanks for posting. I found it interesting. I know it's not the stw way, but I'm happy to be advised by someone who's done so.e research and is considered an expert in their field. I'm very interesting in what he said about orthotics though as I use hard orthotics fir everything. It would be nice if I could do away with them.
As for running technique coming naturally, I'm not so sure. Learn a little about gait and watch people in the street. It looks like most of them haven't mastered walking yet.
I don't understand your point. Are you saying NOT to bother trying to improve technique?
We have had this discussion on a number of threads Molly and I have made the point clearly before so I will put the question back to you. What do you mean by "good technique" and how will you know it when you see it? also how will it help you? Do you want to look good when you run or do you see "technique" as something that will make you faster, is that what you are trying to achieve? Do you mean efficiency? if so overtly good "technique" (in the sense of "fast")doesnt always look attractive and I know a number of good athletes who appear to have poor "technique" but are effective racers and I know a lot of athletes who look very smooth and efficient and are less effective when it comes to racing. There is a lot going on under the "bonnet"!
An effective and efficient (and often fast) technique comes through training and the repetition of specific action over a long period of time. The adaption process is faster with some people than others I am sure but by striving for "technique" or some "magic bullet" I think you are missing the point that hard work brings the reward.
I dont think about a single muscle or group when I am running I just try to cover the ground as quickly as I can given the terrain and I let nature take its course.
As far as I can tell. Surfer is saying your form will come with practice, so the best thing to do is go out and run.
Anecdotally I tend to stop running completely over the summer months and just spend my time [s]eating crisps[/s] riding bikes. When I start running again I'm like a sack of spuds. But that irons out as the muscular economy and efficiency realign themselves to running.
And yes, I can still remember how awful it is to be bad at running. When pushing the distance on a run is just getting to the next gate 200m away, or the end of a line of trees. And even then having to stop to recover. I still vividly remember being described "you looked demented" because I was so trashed by a five mile run I could barely keep going. At least I think that was the reason. My ability to run further and faster with less injuries came about through practice, and with that came the muscular development and form to accommodate high work loads. There was bugger all natural talent involved.
