MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
I don't know what you saw dyna in that video but I saw the police do nothing more than grab someone to slap some handcuffs on them. Someone which they had allegedly been told had been involved in a physical altercation with other members of the public - of course he posed a threat to them. And the threat turned into reality - he became violent because presumably he didn't want to be arrested.
And as well as being violent he is clearly an idiot. No sensible person believes that they can fight off armed officers at a major airport and then just go home and all will be forgotten.
What do you think you saw?
Great reference to the Daily Mail btw.
I’m not sure about that. Lots of documentation of Tasering not working, or only working for a while, so the police officer really didnt want him getting up again.
I believe that typically they incapacitate for 5 seconds before people quickly recover and are back to normal
I don’t know what you saw dyna in that video but I saw the police do nothing more than grab someone to slap some handcuffs on them. Someone which they had allegedly been told had been involved in a physical altercation with other members of the public
Again this is just a report. It hasnt been established as fact, so the police actions should be one of first investigate. Not grab someone in a choke hold and try to wrestle them to the ground.
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Now im just trying to describe what Im seeing Ernie. Im not looking for justification for the police to go on the offensive from the off, because according to that train of thought, you could report any crime and the police attend, then violently arrest them, without proof.
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Sure the police have the right to arrest, to then carry out an investigation. But I would say the police went in heavy handed and the accused to exception to being manhandled in such a manner and fought back. I would say thats something we've all seen on a weekend, but i have never seen the police boot someone in the face/head, then stamp on their head. And im sure if they did that to somebody surrounded by a load of people coming out the pub, a lot of people would intervene.
The police have the right to arrest us, they dont have the power to violently assault us, especially if you are lying prone on the ground
The officer should have after tasering him, moved to handcuff him. but he didnt. he firstly and foremost booted him in the head and then went to cuff him
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Straight off we know the public objected to that action from the shouting by members of the public, appalled by such actions.
I was appalled. the public were appalled, members of parliament were appalled, former officers were appalled.
Some here believe not and think it justified.
Yes he deserved to be arrested for assaulting to police, but no way was there any justification to seriously assaulting a prone man who at that point was no danger to anyone.
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Another thing I find interesting Ernie is how you've described the 'accused'
First it was this - "allegedly been told had been involved in a physical altercation"
Then you went to this - "apparently they have been told that he is a violent suspect"
Followed by "And as well as being violent"
I would like a source for this "apparently been told etc etc", cos no offence, but it sounds like you've embellished it
You could play Chinese whispers all by yourself lol
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I believe the police went in harder than they should have from the off and picked on the last 2 guys you want to do that with. They clearly bit off far more than they could chew and with hindsight, stepping back and engaging in talk would have been the better option. Because again, only an allegation has been made, no more than that.
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But it goes beyond whatever those two were involved in. The police then sprayed pepper spray right into the face of someone who was not involved in that altercation, and then, went for the exact same grab in a choke hold and try to throw to the ground. There was zero attempt there to arrest.
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The police's job is to prevent breach of the peace and not to escalate a situation. I think there they failed and in doing so have caused Greater Manchester police a huge headache and some really bad PR.
The thing I don't get is, that kicking officer, when surrounded by witnesses if you want to hurt someone, he could have simply dropped his knee into the back of of the guy on the floor as he cuffed him, then "pushed him down the stairs" once he was "in the back of the van".
I believe the police went in harder than they should have from the off and picked on the last 2 guys you want to do that with. They clearly bit off far more than they could chew and with hindsight, stepping back and engaging in talk would have been the better option
I would love to live in your world. Have you ever tried talking to someone who is prone to violence and kicks off quickly? Stepping back and engaging in talk isn’t always a sensible thing with some people. Again, nobody on here has any clue as to what exactly happened. So why don’t we just wait for the full story to emerge.
Ah well, luckily i left the door open to change my mind!
Having seen that, the whole thing is a sh*t show that they've had to try and control, the male officer wasn't the one deploying the taser either, and from that angle the 'kick' isn't a full body 'soccer kick' that it looked like from the other angle, they're also trying to stop being overrun fast, with the two female officers having received some full blooded hits, and the male officer barely getting the grey shirted guy under control.
Guessing that the guys lawyer might lose public support now, so the hope of a big pay day might end up with jail time for his clients and no public outcry this time!
Who knows what the thought process was. Only the officer involved I'd suggest. Who's just been attacked / seen other members of his team attacked, tasered an individual and then for 'some reason' has decided that's not enough. Based on the video, even given the lead up to it, it looks disgraceful, I agree, but the key words are 'based on the video'
Who knows what other intelligence was applied here. What if they'd been told over the radio as they're being sent that CCTV has identified them and one of the individuals has history for whatever reason (just cos he's a policeman's relative doesn't make them automatically alright - I'm an upstanding citizen but one of my relatives is an absolute scrote) We just don't know and this is where the IPCC or whoever will take the evidence from everywhere and then find out.
Until then, no-one actually knows.
If it is indeed the case, thankfully the police federation have a very generous compensation plan in place which is between £12,990 and £28220 for a broken nose, as it is classed as a severe injury.
If theres a moderate case of PTSD from it, we can add another £10,000-£30,000 on top of that. Moderately severe it starts at 30k and goes up to 70k.
Please point me to a source for any of this. Admittedly retired, but I haven't heard of "a very generous compensation plan", never mind with those figures
Dyna-ti
I don’t think you live in the real world. It’s clear the men were very nasty violent men. Most normal people don’t decide to beat the crap out of the Police
I’ve seen people being detained at an airport and it was along the lines of ‘would one mind awfully coming this way sir?’ . On the telly I’ve watched plenty of stuff where if they have intelligence they ave also gone in super heavy to gain control because they know the people have no regard for authority (like here)
but no way was there any justification to seriously assaulting a prone man who at that point was no danger to anyone.
not right there. There was no justification for kicking in the head, but the man was still very dangerous. Even after being kicked in the head he was trying to get back up.
Again context is everything and we still haven’t seen and heard everything. The innocent by standers filming and shouting. How the hell do we know they are innocent. A lot of very naive people on here thought the men directly involved for seeet and innocent men.
How do you know they Police didn’t have intelligence that these men are all part of the same organised crime gang?
Even if they are not, they all stood there and watched the police get a good kicking and then continued to mount off at them. The Police didn’t know what they were going to do next , were asking them to stop doing something and they didn’t . They needed to get control of the situation
There was no justification for kicking in the head, but the man was still very dangerous. Even after being kicked in the head he was trying to get back up.
Genuine question, how would you have subdued him given he was still very dangerous? Maybe have a stern word?
Genuine question, how would you have subdued him given he was still very dangerous?
I don’t know I’m no expert , but I assume it was far off using a firearm as they certainly were not complying and a taser hadn’t worked
There must be someone on here that knows correct protocol. If someone is refusing to comply, and even a taser doesn’t work, at what point are you allowed to kick someone in the head or shoot them ?
Also I thought firearms officers weren’t supposed to get involved in close stuff so there is something really odd about this. Lack of resourses?
First and foremost, firearms officers are police officers. There's always a tension between talking to the public, routine traffic stops, etc, and their firearms role
In theory all police officers are to maintain a reactionary gap, but try doing that in a crowded, noisy, busy space and communicating effectively to hopefully avoid it all kicking off 🙂
Whatever you say mate.
Please point me to a source for any of this. Admittedly retired, but I haven’t heard of “a very generous compensation plan”, never mind with those figures
Years ago I came across a chart, possibly linked to police federation or such, i really cant remember.
So knowing such a thing existed, i did a basic search on google because i was interested to know what compo injured police receive. obviously like all workplace injuries there would be a scheme
Scroll down near the bottom of the page
https://www.accidentclaimsadvice.org.uk/police-officer-injury-claims/
Another thing that needs addressing here is that matey boys shifty lawyer was clearly trying to make this a race issue. The deliberate implication from day one was that there was a racist element to the police behaviour here, which there clearly wasn’t. You kick off like that with armed police in an airport and you’ll get the same treatment, regardless of what colour or religion you are.
Given recent tensions regarding a variety of issues in places like Rochdale, the last thing that’s needed is some dodgy ambulance-chaser stirring things to imply racism where none exists and deliberately create a false narrative.
Still no word from him then, I see? Given his love for the TV cameras when releasing his version of events, he doesn’t seem to have anything to say now the more complete footage has emerged?
I don’t know I’m no expert , but I assume it was far off using a firearm as they certainly were not complying and a taser hadn’t worked
Is that meant to say "not far off using a firearm"?
For those saying he should have handcuffed the guy on the ground, in an ideal world yes he would have, but the officer is probably dazed having just been on the end of a dozen hard punches in the head from grey man and blue man, he can see that both his colleagues have been put on the floor although they've got themselves back up. But the shorter of the other two was clearly not functioning fully (again, having both been attacked by the guy who got kicked), the other one is possibly the one with the broken nose so might have been a bloody sight, at this point he doesn't know how effective they are going to be in supporting him. If he kneels down to cuff blue guy then grey guy (and others) might suddenly pile in. I don't think a kick was a grossly disproportionate use of force given what had just happened and the situation they were in. There might have been other ways of dealing with it (more tasers? a foot on the back?) but I don't think the kick was the example of police brutality that it was first made out to be.
As for the police "going in hard to begin with", what a load of nonsense. They were trying to arrest him, not invite him to a group therapy session*, they tried to put his hands behind his back and his head down so they could quickly get cuffs on. The events of the next few seconds show why they were right to try to get him under control quickly. If the police had opened with a flying kick or a gun/taser shot with no warning then that would absolutely be wrong. But 2 coppers grabbing your arms and saying "you're nicked sunshine" isn't "going in hard".
*I'm saying this as a lefty who has been on numerous other threads criticising the police.
Genuine question, are armed police allowed you take their hands off their weapons in a situation like that?
Years ago I came across a chart, possibly linked to police federation or such, i really cant remember.
So knowing such a thing existed, i did a basic search on google because i was interested to know what compo injured police receive. obviously like all workplace injuries there would be a scheme
Scroll down near the bottom of the page
https://www.accidentclaimsadvice.org.uk/police-officer-injury-claims//blockquote >
So as I thought you just made up the numbers as you hate women police officers. From the link the suggested payout is based on serious lifelong injuries and the police force being negligent. It's possible to claim from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority like any one else for serious injuries and judges/magistrates sometimes award damages in court as part of the sentence paid by the perpetrator just as they would if you were assaulted.
Thanks dyna-ti, however, that's a generic No Win, No Fee, Claim the maximum compensation legal firm
Anyone can use similar schemes to get massive amounts of compensation if injured at work, except that many people won't have a reasonable chance of success and will be turned down at the free advice stage
This is what the Police Federation offer and it's the same as any other person can get, except that police officers have to show a higher level of exceptional risk than most other people to qualify. You get kicked in the nuts for real and you take another to pass the threshold for compensation https://www.polfed.org/lancashire/advice/injury-on-duty/
Not sure if it has been mentioned so far but not seen it.....Assuming (I know) that these are the sons who 'dealt with' the alleged racist passenger that had been pointed out to them by their mother - given their behaviour here you've got to assume (again) that interaction was quite spicy too. Which would account for the police going in straight to arrest them rather than have a nice chat.
No one is going to come out of this well.
And....if the police officer gets charged.....would they charge the 'victim' of his assault of assault? That feels all kinds of messy. Which I guess is a damn good reason if no other exists why police officers simply have to keep their heads.
Oh and damned good work whoever leaked that to the MEN - gives a bit more context and makes sure no one has the moral high ground to get too finger pointy. Should calm things down a bit.
however, that’s a generic No Win, No Fee, Claim the maximum compensation legal firm
Ahh I see.
Though I would have thought there would be some sort of scheme over and above standard CICA as I wouldnt have thought any injury, from falling off a chair in the office to being injured as in this incident, would be classed as risks of the job you(they) signed up for.
I got nearly 2k for an injured elbow, scarring from a robbery. They(CICA) had criteria if the injury leaving scarring was unsightly. Broken nose is more serious than that, as its central face.
But there you go. Cheers for at least clarifying things.
Oh and damned good work whoever leaked that to the MEN – gives a bit more context and makes sure no one has the moral high ground to get too finger pointy. Should calm things down a bit.
I’m guessing by his comments early on, that Andy Burnham had seen “all” of the footage .
I , like others thought what the copper had done was over the top and an “act of revenge “ after the incident.
Now I have seen the whole footage , and saw that it was part of the same sequence, then I can see he was trying the neutralise the situation the best way he could. With all that shit going on around him , you think he’s going to try putting cuffs on , by himself ??
Having seen the more complete videos, I've completely changed my view on this. Binners nails it: copper was doing what he needed to do in an extremely difficult situation. The "victims" have played dirty when releasing their videos and they have made it a racist event.
Trained armed police and you only get a kick in the head?
I'm sure if we watched this footage in any other part of the world they'd have been shot given the ferocity of the attack on the police.
Andy Burnham has made simply repeated his initial statement that there is a lot more evidence to come out yet so people shouldn't rush to judgement. Given what we've seen so far, I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that might well involve earlier footage of another masssively violent assault by the same people which led to them being arrested in the first place.
Looking at their behavior in that video, they look like the type of people who quickly revert to violence at the slightest provocation. From the way thoes two were swinging punches, that doesn't exactly look like its an activity they're unfamilar with.
Its taken some bloody front from dodgy lawyer bloke to go out so aggressively to try and portay this event as some kind of unprovoked assault by racist police. I wonder how the people are feeling who went out protesting, on the strength of the selectively edited initial video, now they've seen what we've all now seen? No wonder the dodgy lawyer is now nowhere to be seen.
My BiL was a prison officer, and got headbutted and had broken nose and cheekbone with surgery to pull it out again (surgery but quite minor I think)
He got nothing (or very little), employer wasn't negligent, a risk of the job. Nothing like the 10's of k sorts of numbers above
He's no longer a prison officer.
Binners nails it: copper was doing what he needed to do in an extremely difficult situation. The “victims” have played dirty when releasing their videos and they have made it a racist event.
I'm working on a bike race today and speaking to some of the police working on this, they've obviously seen the footage. Their view is that the female officers were singled out for assault initially, other officers rush in to support and it all kicks off.
They weren't at all sure WTF was going on - there's never any issues at the airport other than lost kids etc so why the hell are armed officers being assaulted?! It's then been turned into a racist event, strategically selected pieces of video released without showing the initial escalation.
no shit. Kind of obvious when the video shows only exactly what supports their argument and nothing else. I’ll just bear this in mind when we have the next “advert” thread and the usual suspects declare themselves immune to advertising/manipulation 🙂The “victims” have played dirty when releasing their videos
I would like to see those two do that to Italian/French/Spanish police and see how it ended... Unfortunately the UK is full of scrotes that think nothing of now attacking emergency workers, shop workers and threatening people working on the transport networks.
The police have the right to arrest us, they dont have the power to violently assault us, especially if you are lying prone on the ground
I disagree thats the case if, as alleged, they were violent on the flight. I expect the action to be arrest and incapacitate immediately. Ive had the odd interaction with the police growing up in lees than salubrious area of Liverpool, the time to argue about this is back at the station, not to start throwing punches.
Yes he deserved to be arrested for assaulting to police, but no way was there any justification to seriously assaulting a prone man who at that point was no danger to anyone.
Editing made it look like it was an unprovoked attack on an unarmed man. Now we see that less than 4 seconds prior the man on the ground had the officer in a headlock after punching him several times. A good case for the whole thing being part of the same fracas and in the officers view (being armed) a fight he had to win.
There must be someone on here that knows correct protocol. If someone is refusing to comply, and even a taser doesn’t work, at what point are you allowed to kick someone in the head or shoot them ?
Correct protocol..is using the Use of Force Continuum. The problem being that in a nice cushy office when they're writing these things...there is none of the stress of an actual situation and telling cops on a training course "if that doesn't work, have a rethink, and come back in at the next level up" doesn't tally with the reality of it kicking off within a second. 3 cops on their arses within 3 or 4 seconds, noisy chaotic and not knowing where the next assailant is coming from with 7 or 8 seconds....tazer deployed...less effective than they'd like...and we are at 10 seconds. Reading this took longer. Next step up from tazer when control is being lost could well be the firearm....the violent thug on the deck may be sat alone thinking 'Thank f### he didn't shoot me...'
https://www.college.police.uk/app/armed-policing/use-force-firearms-and-less-lethal-weapons
I suspect that police are pretty good at evaluating the level of threat individual people pose to them. Let’s be honest 99% of people fight like this and that’s only at a point when a direct physical confrontation is simply unavoidable …
Most of us will do anything to avoid violence.
Then there’s a hardcore 1% who are proper brawlers and kick off merchants (I suspect we’ve all known a good few), will happily instigate situations, then meter out terrifyingly brutal levels of violence at the drop of a hat
You can tell from the way they conduct themselves that those 2 are definitely in the latter category, and there’s another 3 of their mates stood there who could also be of the same mindset. It’s no wonder the copper wasn’t taking any risks. He’s already been punched repeatedly in the head and seen 2 of his colleagues get sparked out.
What would you do in that situation? The obvious answer is run away, which is what I’d have done. But that’s why I’m not a copper, because you need to be made of sterner stuff
I wonder how the people are feeling who went out protesting, on the strength of the selectively edited initial video, now they’ve seen what we’ve all now seen?
I bet most will still feel the same, police violence is what they wanted to see and that's what they saw. Some no doubt will think twice but I bet many won't, jump to a conclusion which ties into personal bias and stick with it, like a small number of posters on here.
I hope the lawyers professional body see all this and have a long hard think about whether Mr shit stirring lawyer should still be part of their profession.
Some interesting insight. The head kick and stamp were andalways will be wrong.
https://twitter.com/PublicPriestley/status/1817292197785375205 always will be wrong.
Pondo you're going to have to do a lot better than some random on Twitter to justify you rather weak point given what we've all now seen.
What is the 'insight' for those of us not on twitter/x ?
Pondo you’re going to have to do a lot better than some random on Twitter to justify you rather weak point given what we’ve all now seen.
Mmm, not really - kicking and stamping a tazed man lying prone in the head remains entirely unecessary and inappropriate for an officer, no matter how much emotion you justify it with.
What is the ‘insight’ for those of us not on twitter/x ?
It's an ex-copper talking through the incident - I'll see if I can screenshot it...
Edit - hmm, not sure that's worked. 🙁
kicking and stamping a tazed man lying prone in the head remains entirely unecessary
He was quickly to become "untazed" and would no doubt quickly return to the fray.
He was quickly to become “untazed” and would no doubt quickly return to the fray.
Pure supposition. The officer who tazed him retains control of the taser that's still attached to him and can "retaze" him if necessary.
“a fight he had to win.”
Potentially fighting for his life, almost definitely fighting for control of his sidearm. He loses control of that & then the trouble could really start. What’s the saying? “Carried by 6 or tried by 12”….not a nice position to be in.
“The officer who tazed him retains control of the taser that’s still attached to him and can “retaze” him if necessary.”
You’re assuming the tazer is still effective..
The scrote on the floor was mobile in seconds after the tasing. Pond you're just proving the point I made earlier.
It’s an ex-copper talking through the incident – I’ll see if I can screenshot it…
From here it doesn't look as though my pictures are posting. 🙁
In summary, misuse of force doesn't excuse the crime and vice versa. The person who was kicked and stamped clearly committed a deplorable crime, but if it wasn't necessary and proportionate, the kick/stamp needs to be held to account. Him "deserving" it is irrelevant, it's not the officer's role to decide that - what is relevant is that the man was tasered and incapacitated, so the key fact is how long from tasering to the kick, if immediate the officer may claim necessity, if long enough to realise the suspect was incapacited it becomes an uneccessary and potentially lethal use of force, and a breach of the duty of care they owe to the tasered man. When deploying taser, target is red-dotted and warned, when fired it makes a loud, rapid clicking noise, target usually makes an involuntary noise and stops talking/shouting, they fall to the floor in a distinctice, stiff manner. The barbs stay in him and the person holding it can hit them with another charge if required - they are under control. Personal restraint is crucial, possibly the hardest test an officer faces, but this is an incredibly complex case, it's not about being pro/anti-police.
Sorry for the length, that's about 16 tweets summarised! Just thought it was interesting, in light of all the "he deserved it/it was understandable/in another country he'd have been shot" outpourings.
You’re assuming the tazer is still effective..
He was certainly still lying stationary on the floor...
The scrote on the floor was mobile in seconds after the tasing. Pond you’re just proving the point I made earlier.
... maybe watch it again, the ONLY movement he made after clearly being tased was to slowly turn his head just in time to stop a boot in the chops.
Edit - actually, I'll correct that; he goes from fully rigid to slumped, presumably as the taser is... turned off? He then slowly turns his head just in time to stop a boot in the chops.
Guy attempts to beat up a cop and complains he got a kicking in return?
What's that quote from Max & Paddy? You play with feathers, you get your arse tickled.
“but this is an incredibly complex case, ”
Very much so. There is much to unravel & many with an axe to grind or not enough patience to wait & see.
Watch the full sequence he clearly moves his arms and legs quickly after the tasing. It's also quite possible the officer who kicked him didn't know he had been tased.
Watch the full sequence he clearly moves his arms and legs quickly after the tasing.
Are you watching a different video to me? The video that I'm looking at very much does not clearly show that.
Will try to embed it...
<failed embed link removed 🙁 >
Failing that, it's on this page -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c3gekjyq3j7o
a breach of the duty of care they owe to the tasered man
I don’t know about you, but I doubt I’d be feeling too much of a ‘duty of care’ to someone who 3 seconds earlier had repeatedly punched me really ****ing hard in the head
It's clearer on one of the original videos, that one stops before the stamp.
What you think you would feel is irrelevant.
Hardly. It’s about understanding and empathising with instinctive human reactions, in this case in a situation where someone is genuinely facing a threat to their life.
These people aren’t robots. No matter what the training you’ve had, emotions of the ‘fight or flight’ nature are going to kick in big time and that’s going to dictate your reaction
Like everyone I was absolutely appalled when I saw the initial footage (which is exactly how Mr Dodgy Lawyer wanted me to feel), now that I’ve seen the context I regard the coppers actions somewhat differently, to say the least
Hardly. It’s about understanding and empathising with instinctive human reactions, in this case in a situation where someone is genuinely facing a threat to their life.
Like everyone I was absolutely appalled when I saw the initial footage, now that I’ve seen the context I regard the coppers actions somewhat differently
I understand and I empathise. Nevertheless, the officer's actions are no less appalling now than they were before this footage emerged.
Is the officer who issued the kick the one that got dragged down when the suspect was tased? If so, he had time to get to his feet, draw down his own taser on the suspect and there is then a clear pause before he kicks out. There was no threat - that was red mist. I understand why, I even empathise - it's still appalling
So, 2 thugs violently assault members of the public, then when the police attempt to arrest them for this, they kick off a massive ruck, brutally attack a number of officers, including singling out two female officers who are punched repeatedly, full force in the face?
They then have their lawyer release edited and totally misleading video to depict this, completely inaccurately as an unprovoked racist attack, exploiting existing tensions and provoking protests in the streets which could have turned nasty very easily? Rochdale could very well have erupted into violence like Leeds did last week.
You’ll have to excuse me while I go and get the worlds smallest violin for the ‘boo-hoo, poor me’ routine for one of them getting a kick in the head for his troubles
With regard to Taser, depending on which model of Taser used, you generally need at least 2 probes connected for it to be effective. Often, when someone hits the ground one or both probes can become detached, meaning the Taser is no longer effective.
Your choices would be to then either deploy again using a different cartridge if you’ve got one left, or use an angled drive stun with the hope you make a circuit with a still attached probe.
This officer may have already used his spare cartridge and he may not have any other probes attached.
So, given that this officer is trying to detain this male alone (one officer is “crowd control” & two others have been incapacitated and/or detaining the original male) what does he do?
We’ve seen the level of violence the lad is willing to use, he looks young strong, agile… given his speed I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s boxed at some point. What does that officer do to detain that male?
Does he use his Taser again? Not an option if he’s run out of cartridges. Does he continually activate it if the probes are still attached, until someone can help him & put cuffs on? Or does he sit on him using his Taser to angle drive stun, which has the potential to burn straight through your skin? Which by the way fboth these options could be considered torture under Article 3 ECHR.
Or does he disengage & hope the male is now more interested in escaping, not dishing out more broken noses, and leave him for another day?
What does he do?
Had there been another officer not otherwise engaged, they could’ve maybe used their Taser (if they had one - not everyone does). There doesn't appear to be any spare officers. They can also “detain under power”, meaning if Taser is effective you can activate it long enough to put them in cuffs. Again nobody spare.
So what does he do?
All this is spinning round his head as it’s all unfolding in just a few seconds.
I am guessing here (because I wasn’t there), but that officer was in survival mode. YES firearms officers are trained in weapon retention, and IF someone is trying to grab your gun you can be sure it’s not to tickle you with it… but he’s now got a dilemma - common sense would tell you to not get that close, maintain your reactionary gap. I think we’re past that point. He’s still a cop and there is a social imperative to detain that male. The Police cannot ignore a crime, especially if it’s happening right there in front of them.
So what should he do?
“If it is indeed the case, thankfully the police federation have a very generous compensation plan in place which is between £12,990 and £28220 for a broken nose, as it is classed as a severe injury.
If theres a moderate case of PTSD from it, we can add another £10,000-£30,000 on top of that. Moderately severe it starts at 30k and goes up to 70k.”
That’s just completely untrue. I get that you’ve now adjusted it when you realise it’s all from a personal injury lawyer on a no win no fee basis, but you need to stop presenting your “thoughts” , guesswork & opinion as fact.
Please point me to a source for any of this. Admittedly retired, but I haven’t heard of “a very generous compensation plan”, never mind with those figures.
You haven’t because there isn’t one - never was & never will be.
Having suffered broken bones, deep cuts, delicate testicles & have permanent scars on the surface of my eyes from having grit thrown in my face the Police no longer get anything from CICA because in their words “the job of a police officer is inherently risky and personal injury is to be expected as part of their job”.
“There was no threat………”
Easy to say watching on the internet. The “threat” was going to detain individuals who were wanted for previous violence, who then became violent to multiple armed police all while you are surrounded by a crowd who are shouting at you, you are not able to run away like many would. Just because 1 person was on the floor does not indicate there was no threat, the situation certainly was not under control at that moment and was still kicking off around him and all happening very fast in a matter of seconds where you make your decision in the moment, not after reviewing the situation from a sofa. Add in whatever other assumptions you want from feared for his life, though he may lose his weapon, thought the crowd were going to join in, thought the public around were at risk, last time he was faced with a similar scenario he was not forceful enough and got injured etc etc (who knows what was going through his head) already said he is lucky he was not shot at this stage, I think that showed restraint.
Another thing to consider is the fact that this case is now being weaponised by not only clowns like Lee Anderson, but also genuinely dangerous people like Stephen Yaxley-Lennon and his delightful followers
The potential repercussions of this are enormous, which the perpetrators clearly couldn’t give a toss about when they released their totally misleading video ‘evidence’
Any more word from the oily lawyer? He’s properly gone to ground after lighting the blue touch paper, hasn’t he?
Other than the violence shown in both videos, I do think the most depressing thing about this is how such such an incendiary video like the first one can be released so easily across the mainstream media.
More so because those that supplied the video (and many of those that published it) would have been aware there was a lot more context to that small clip, and also been aware of how a clip proporting to show unprovoked police brutality/ assault against a member of a minority community could incite further acts of violence.
Ultimately blame and any relevant criminal charges for all involved should only be decided after the full story comes out and a full investigation has been done.
Trail by media seems more and more common and is a dangerous slippery slope IMO.
I would say props to Andy Burnham for being even handed in his response.
I'm not even sure how the lawyer had the audacity to do what he did knowing that this was going to be presented, i thought the videos of how it all started would potentially change minds, but what has been released it pretty much as bad as you can get, i mean full blooded assaults on armed police, in an area of high security, what were they thinking would be the outcome, beat up three police officers and then just nip off home?!
With regard to Taser, depending on which model of Taser used, you generally need at least 2 probes connected for it to be effective. Often, when someone hits the ground one or both probes can become detached, meaning the Taser is no longer effective.
The last video linked is suggestive that the suspect "relaxed" from the taser being switched off after lying prone and tense for a moments - looks like about five seconds after initially being tased?
Your choices would be to then either deploy again using a different cartridge if you’ve got one left, or use an angled drive stun with the hope you make a circuit with a still attached probe.
Pretty sure they guy delivering the kick hadn't fired his taser at that point, he seems to draw it on the guy in the grey shirt but not fire it, he then draws down on the blue shirt guy on standing after being dragged down by the falling, tasered suspect.
This officer may have already used his spare cartridge and he may not have any other probes attached.
So, given that this officer is trying to detain this male alone (one officer is “crowd control” & two others have been incapacitated and/or detaining the original male) what does he do?
Not kick the incapacitated subject in the head. I think a different officer already has a taser in the suspect.
We’ve seen the level of violence the lad is willing to use, he looks young strong, agile… given his speed I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s boxed at some point. What does that officer do to detain that male?
He's lying face down on the floor, you'll know much better than me but is a kick to the head of a prone suspect a trained method of detention?
Does he use his Taser again? Not an option if he’s run out of cartridges. Does he continually activate it if the probes are still attached, until someone can help him & put cuffs on? Or does he sit on him using his Taser to angle drive stun, which has the potential to burn straight through your skin? Which by the way fboth these options could be considered torture under Article 3 ECHR.
Bit Schrodinger's Policeman... 🙂
Or does he disengage & hope the male is now more interested in escaping, not dishing out more broken noses, and leave him for another day?
What does he do?
Again, the suspect is tased, prone and motionless.
Had there been another officer not otherwise engaged, they could’ve maybe used their Taser (if they had one – not everyone does). There doesn’t appear to be any spare officers. They can also “detain under power”, meaning if Taser is effective you can activate it long enough to put them in cuffs. Again nobody spare.
So what does he do?
I think a different officer already has a taser in the suspect.
All this is spinning round his head as it’s all unfolding in just a few seconds.
I am guessing here (because I wasn’t there), but that officer was in survival mode. YES firearms officers are trained in weapon retention, and IF someone is trying to grab your gun you can be sure it’s not to tickle you with it… but he’s now got a dilemma – common sense would tell you to not get that close, maintain your reactionary gap. I think we’re past that point. He’s still a cop and there is a social imperative to detain that male. The Police cannot ignore a crime, especially if it’s happening right there in front of them.
So what should he do?
Not kick the incapacitated subject in the head. Ultimately, it looks like he eventually drops a knee on his back, not sure if he then goes on to cuff him?
Easy to say watching on the internet. The “threat” was going to detain individuals who were wanted for previous violence, who then became violent to multiple armed police all while you are surrounded by a crowd who are shouting at you, you are not able to run away like many would. Just because 1 person was on the floor does not indicate there was no threat, the situation certainly was not under control at that moment and was still kicking off around him and all happening very fast in a matter of seconds where you make your decision in the moment, not after reviewing the situation from a sofa.
Please don't misunderstand, I'm very aware that I'm viewing this from across a galaxy-width of safety net, and I speak only from the video evidence. Within that context, if the suggestion is that the kick may have been justified by the potential threat from the suspect on the floor, I disagree - I also don't think that's why the officer kicked him, but I appreciate that's purely subjective.
The potential repercussions of this are enormous, which the perpetrators clearly couldn’t give a toss about when they released their totally misleading video ‘evidence’
Are you suggesting the initial footage is not representative? 🙂 Pretty sure you can see the guys who filmed it in the background of this most recent CCTV footage, they didn't start filming until after it kicked off - I don't think the footage has been cut, I just don't think they started filming until quite late in the day. As has been noted elsewhere, it escalated rapidly.
Some quotes from Andy Bunham today, my bold:
Greater Manchester mayor Andy Burnham said after the release of the new footage “this is a complicated situation with two sides to it” and urged people “not to rush to judgement”.
Mr Burnham said: “Following incidents in the run-up to the footage people have seen, four individuals were arrested and are now on police bail. It is frustrating that we have not been able to put more video into the public domain but that is because this is a live investigation.
“People now need to step back and allow the IOPC’s [Independent Office for Police Conduct’s) criminal investigation into the officer’s conduct to move forward, alongside the parallel GMP investigation into other potential offences, so that a complete picture can be presented.
“Given all these investigations are ongoing, it would not be appropriate to comment further.”
The mayor said there were three stages to the incident, with a prior dispute taking place on a plane before the footage seen by the public.
He told Sky News on Sunday: “It’s a complicated situation, a very violent situation, actually, and there were issues on both sides.
“That’s why I asked other people not to rush to judgement because of the complexity of it and, simply, everyone who’s having their say, nobody has got all of the facts. Nobody is in possession of the complete picture.”
I’m not even sure how the lawyer had the audacity to do what he did knowing that this was going to be presented, i thought the videos of how it all started would potentially change minds, but what has been released it pretty much as bad as you can get, i mean full blooded assaults on armed police, in an area of high security, what were they thinking would be the outcome, beat up three police officers and then just nip off home?!
I suspect what we've seen is not the start of the incident - they pretty much walk up and grab the suspect, no "excuse me" or attempt to establish identity, which seems quite a hard approach by armed police. So who knows what else will come out.
Irrespective, the kick and stamp are grossly uneccessary.
Some quotes from Andy Bunham today, my bold:
Entirely fair.
Pondo, have you ever been involved in a quickly escalating violent situation? I’m guessing from your posts that you haven’t. Training only goes so far, adrenaline kicks in and things go to shit very quickly. Instinct takes over and I’m still reserving judgement until I know the full story. At this stage I think the scrote on the floor got off lightly considering it was armed police he was ****ing with.
Like this? God no.
That kick/stamp wasn't instinctive.
At this stage I think the scrote on the floor got off lightly considering it was armed police he was **** with.
Indeed. As somebody has already pointed out, there are plenty of countries (the majority, I’d imagine) where if you even thought about starting that level of shit with armed police in an airport, you’d almost certainly now be dead
I’d think that if you did that in an American airport they’d still be scraping bits of you off the walls
Like this? God no.
I sadly have, might be why we have different opinions. You’re not in a position to state whether that kick was or wasn’t instinctive either. Thing move very quickly in the heat of the moment.
I’m not making judgement on the overall situation. Just highlighting that after attacking armed police, getting a kick isn’t that bad. In a lot of other counties he would be dead.
I'm wandering if TikTok influencing solicitor hasn't had a whisper in his shell from the Law Society about his media reaction without viewing more of the evidence.
I certainly won't hire him now.
The lawyer comes across really poorly when interviewed.
Watching the full video, those lads are obviously regularly using violence.
I feel more sympathy for the policeman now, his two female colleagues have been taken out of the picture and he's dealing with 2 violent thugs, who know how to handle themselves and are possibly up to their eyeballs in coke, judging by their immediate violent reactions.
He was wrong in what he did though and he should face the consequences but I now hope he doesn't get the sack.
I sadly have, might be why we have different opinions. You’re not in a position to state whether that kick was or wasn’t instinctive either. Thing move very quickly in the heat of the moment.
Opinions is the operative word there. Instinctive is quick, without thought - this guy was bowled over by a tasered suspect (said taser fired and clicking away right by his head), got up from the floor, drew down on the motionless suspect with his own taser, paused, kicked then stamped the prone suspect's head. That for me is not instinctive, it's red mist "you bastard" retribution. Your opinion differs, and that's fine - we can have different opinions.
I’m not making judgement on the overall situation. Just highlighting that after attacking armed police, getting a kick isn’t that bad. In a lot of other counties he would be dead.
Armed police who just grabbed him from behind. Did they announce their presence? Did he know who they were? Is he himself already angry and tense after a previous confontation? Lots of talk about him attacking armed police - looks to me like two of the three he hit engaged him first, and the only one he attacked was the one pointing a weapon at his brother (the guy who subsequently kicked him in the head, I think). Just as I don't believe the police officer should be excused because he got hit, there's no excuse for the suspect to be fighting with the police, but if there are calls to understand the policeman's motives in light of this most recent video, it would be hypocritical and counterproductive not to do the same for the suspect.
"Scrote", I think, is pretty judgemental.
I was very critical of the police action after seeing the initial mobile footage. Once you see the full incident a few things stand out
2 people who went from 0-100 in seconds
2 people who were not afraid to use extreme violence against the police
2 people who were clearly trained in combat, likely boxing, and extremely strong and capable
They had incapacitated members of the police group who were now taken out of the situation and we're no help to the remaining officers
They were attacking the officers from all sides
The officers were surrounded by a mob with no idea if they would join in
The officers were likely reluctant to go to ground to control the suspects in case of more attacks from behind etc.
The kick was delivered at the height of the chaos, not after the situation had calmed down. Man on the ground still posed a huge threat
A hellish situation to be in. I suspect the officer will lose their job, but given everything that was happening, a kick to the head wasn't unreasonable to ensure a serious threat to their safety was subdued. It's not pretty, but if he'd kneeled on his back and delivered punches to the head to subdue him, it wouldn't be nearly as controversial. Head kicks carry huge shock value.