He seems like a nice polite young man. And he's always smartly turned out, with his shoes polished and hair brushed. Not like some of 'em nowadays. Eeh I always say a nice polite young man should be smartly turned out. You can tell a lot about a nicely turned out polite young man by his shoes, I always say.
No no no! You don’t need to borrow what you are the sole issuer of!
So far as I can follow it @rone, MMT stresses that a person (even a central bank or government) cannot borrow back an iou that it issued (which is of course true, you cannot owe money to yourself). So issuing government debt = cancelling government iou's (the ones implicit in the money used to buy the debt with), paying the debt back = issuing fresh government iou's. Buying back bonds amounts to issuing the buy-back iou's now rather than at the bonds' maturity dates. If you ignore the separate legal personality of the central bank as MMT folk do, this would cancel those bonds (see above). But I imagine the BoE regards its separate status as important, so it does not treat it like this and puts the bonds back on the market as second hand bonds, when it gets round to doing so. Likewise the government, so it treats the money it gets from issuing bonds as an asset rather than a reduction in liablity.
Likewise the government, so it treats the money it gets from issuing bonds as an asset rather than a reduction in liablity.
Just briefly the BoE gets around all these complex balancing sheet activities by have different arms of its operations to appear at arms length. (I will dig out a link.,)
That bit is complex and I can't pretend to understand it all.
A bond is simply a swap of an interest bearing asset for a non interest bearing asset. (Because the government can always cover its debts.)
Sorry not got much time but I'm glad people are engaging.
No no no! You don’t need to borrow what you are the sole issuer of!
Jesus you'd think people would get this by now. It's like govt finance myths bingo. 🙄
Can I please urge everyone with questions about how govt finances work to go and do some very simple and accessible reading, and then come back and make daft statements like 'we'll end up like Zimbabwe if we spend more' etc.
Places to start:
The Deficit Myth by Stephanie Skelton
https://twitter.com/RichardJMurphy?s=20&t=sdVc-EN7sWTkUm0f6WpRDw
https://twitter.com/D_Blanchflower?s=20&t=N-lx2FarYosT9Hk8cBkn0w
He seems like a nice polite young man. And he’s always smartly turned out, with his shoes polished and hair brushed. Not like some of ’em nowadays. Eeh I always say a nice polite young man should be smartly turned out. You can tell a lot about a nicely turned out polite young man by his shoes, I always say.
As much as I realised this is a bit Tonge in cheek, there is a part of me that feels a little bit relieved we now have less of a lying nutcase or mysteriously incapable dimwit in no 10.
My parents know the butcher in Bedale, apparently he is a very nice young man when he pops into their shop.
"an election would be nice but its not gonna happen as its basically political suicide for the torys and why would they want that?"
Because they are shameless cowards who have doubtless considered calling a GE early with the intention of leaving Labour to deal with the s*** storm?
The Tories could then mount a new challenge in 4 years time when the situation is looking a bit brighter and Labour have been through the ringer?
But you're probably right, thankfully.
Just briefly the BoE gets around all these complex balancing sheet activities by have different arms of its operations to appear at arms length. (I will dig out a link.,)
I am sure, but what about the Government (Treasury)? They no doubt keep accounts as well, and it is they who issue bonds. The Bank issues currency. The former has an account with the latter. That seems to keep things nice and separate from an accounting point of view. But I imagine that, even if they were the same legal person, they would still keep things separate accountancy-wise.
It was nice of him to spare a thought for Lizzie and thank her for the energy price cap.
Otherwise it would have cost him a fortune to heat that swimming pool
That's another example of him being a nice young man; he was polite and said thanks.
What more could anyone expect?
I'm sure he'll say sorry when he breaks something or makes a mistake.
Well, hopefully the NHS won't get blanked like Hancock...
The UK economy was on its knees after World War 2, the country was skint, no one talked about “very unpopular things”.
On the contrary, they talked about highly popular things such as creating free universal healthcare, a huge building programme for decent affordable housing, and a modern welfare state.**
Even though the country was skint.
Edit : ** And they achieved it.
Yep, it’s weird one,but I have a very good feeling that having joe public returning armed after fighting a war may not have ended well had they not thrown something at the plebs.
I just think the current gov are just incredibly stale and dull and devoid of any ‘vision’ other than what has been tried a million times before.
(Always reminds me of the Lloyds names who were used to cashing in year after year and were unpleasantly surprised the time they had to pay out,they’d forgot what they were actually doing with their money.)
Mmm NHS, wasn’t he spending a lot of time with the US insurance companies a while back discussing ‘opportunities’.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/25/opinion/rishi-sunak-uk-prime-minister.html
That ^^ imo is the most brilliantly written critique of Rishi Sunak I have yet read, it hits every single nail on the head.
Having said that it is probably the only actual critique of Rishi Sunak that I have read, British newspapers seem only to have been interested in how well Sunak was fairing in the leadership election, rather than his politics and what a Sunak premiership might mean for the UK.
How ironic that it is an article in an American newspaper which digs deeper.
Normally I would quote one or two of the best points in a article but I genuinely find it impossible to chose any from that article as they are all excellent points.
Don't read it if you are someone who thinks that Sunak becoming PM is some sort of step forward and don't want to be disappointed by reality though.
FFS the link didn't work!
No idea what the problem is try googling the headline
The New York Times: Opinion | Rishi Sunak Won’t Save Britai https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/25/opinion/rishi-sunak-uk-prime-minister.html
But I imagine that, even if they were the same legal person, they would still keep things separate accountancy-wise.
Reminds me of a story I was told by an exFD of one of Robert Maxwell's companies when he was a colleague of mine:
exFD - Robert, you've to keep your private businesses and your public businesses separate
RM - Oh, like pockets, a separate one for each?
exFD - Yes
And as RM walks away my colleague heard him say quietly - "separate pockets, same trousers..."
Well, hopefully the NHS won’t get blanked like Hancock…
That was very, very funny.
The New York Times: Opinion | Rishi Sunak Won’t Save Britain.
It's odd that more hasn't been made of the levelling down by the Conservative party over the last 3 years. The changes to the funding formulas for councils have shifted money away from deprived areas towards better off but historically 'underfunded' areas. What this means of course is that the deprived areas which have much lower council and business rate takes now also get less support from the treasury, while richer areas which have much better per capita tax takes, and lower costs of provisions for supporting their communities get more than they used to. Bonkers.
While there's a lot I don't like about Bozza, I do think he was the balance to Rishi's austerity and welfare cutting program, and I think we'll actually be worse off (as a country, overall) without Boris' influence. OMG I cannot believe I just said that but there you go. I did.
You know labour will be using that video of sunak in the leadership hustings saying he had moved funding from deprived areas
I do think he was the balance to Rishi’s austerity and welfare cutting program
Johnson's skill was to take things from you, while smiling and convincing you he was giving you something. Levelling up was/is the perfect example of that.
The New York Times: Opinion | Rishi Sunak Won’t Save Britain
The Tory party has cleared out all but the Brexiteer nutters. Of which Sunak is still one.
Therefore everything they do has a delusional fantasy at it’s core, so is ultimately doomed to be the same abject failure and chaos of the last 6 years
To make any progress, the UK has to hold its hands up and acknowledge that Brexit is a disaster. Sunak is still a believer, so is on a hiding to nothing right from the off
Johnson’s skill was to take things from you, while smiling and convincing you he was giving you something. Levelling up was/is the perfect example of that.
Im not so sure. While he has many flaws, he was/has never been ideologically a right wing conservative or indeed a brexiteer. He's a populist, and is prone to doing what he thinks will make him popular in order to keep the Boris gravy train rolling, but that kept some degree of balance as he was always playing both sides - the public and the party. Rishi is far more driven by what he believes in and will I think be far more likely to tell you one thing and do another.
He’s a populist, and is prone to
doingsaying what he thinks will make him popular
Austerity never ended under Johnson. He just had the knack of making people think otherwise. Levelling up was that in spades. Telling us one thing, doing the opposite. Transport in the North. New hospitals. School budgets.
Just read that NYT article that Ernie mentions.
Very depressing read, but I guess it does explain why Rishi is so (relatively) popular with Tory MPs.
(Essentially saying that Rishi always was and remains a dispassionate Thacherite who will seek to achieve fiscal stability by further shrinking the state & squeezing welfare provision.)
Austerity never ended under Johnson. He just had the knack of making people think otherwise. Levelling up was that in spades. Telling us one thing, doing the opposite. Transport in the North. New hospitals. School budgets.
I don't disagree it was still happening, I'm talking about relative positions on the crap-o-meter of politics. I would argue that we will see increase in ideologically driven austerity etc. under Sunak than we did under Boris because Boris was, improbably, a 'good' influence on the hardline small state / low taxxers in the Tories.
For me austerity means cuts in government spending, did much of that happen under Johnson? If so how much?
Rishi Sunak’s high-spending 2021 autumn budget had Boris Johnson’s name stamped all over it
The Prime Minister has forced the Chancellor to splash the cash in a way last seen under Blair and Brown
Boris was, improbably, a ‘good’ influence on the hardline small state / low taxxers in the Tories.
Boris Johnson was always on about small sate / low tax... that was his other skill though... different messages for different audiences.
https://www.google.com/search?q=boris+johnson+small+state&oq=boris+johnson+small+state
I'm not buying the narrative around Sunak being elected as the first non white PM because he wasnt really, he was selected by MP's from his own party who were too scared to put the vote to their own party members, yet alone the country.
It's like the narrative that the Tories have had 3 female prime minister's. Again, they haven't really, May and Truss were there on a trial period but failed. Work experience at best.
They were still 1st Lords of the Treasury, no matter how short.
And May did get support from the public. Voted in with a minority of votes, but that's pretty normal in our system.
And, I feel it is good that we have a Hindu as PM... even if without a public mandate... something positive to balance up the fact that him being stinking rich "might" have helped him to get there. I'm looking to grab any positive I can out of 2022.
As a non (IE never) Tory voter I thought it was a good first speak from Rishi, and he cirtainly gives a more confidence than BJ or Truss for me. However repeating we have an economic crisis in the UK, mentioned covid / Russia but the be B in the room ignored again.....
Some stirring oratory today as Barry from accounts takes over the top job from Lynn from HR
Well I thought that was a good - and the right - speech. I’m also led to understand his picking a Cabinet of greatest skill* regardless of their political support for Sunak. If he gets results like he just talked over the next two years he may just get them back on track.
To my simple mind at least he’s come across more compelling than anyone else in the last 3 years albeit based on one speech.
* I appreciate this may not be a high bar.
Looks like one positive already, moggy mogg has gone
Grab all the positives. Who else is gone?
Looking at the photos in the Times he seems to have shot up overnight. Maybe he's grown into the job.
picking a Cabinet of greatest skill
Of course not, it will be a cabinet to heal rifts in the party. The good of the country has nothing to do with it.
Looking at the photos in the Times he seems to have shot up overnight. Maybe he’s grown into the job.
https://twitter.com/spittingcat/status/1584862906092584960?s=20&t=WqFuyHiUnTFlj6Yqjj5aTg
picking a Cabinet of greatest skill
There hasn't been anyone with worthwhile skills in the Cabinet for 5+ years.
A bunch of chancers, self-serving ****ers, spivs and lackies certainly but no-one with any tangible skills.
The only qualifications required for cabinet membership are enthusiasm for Brexit (which by definition makes you an idiot) and unquestioning loyalty to the boss, no matter what they get up too
Just look at what are referred to as ‘The Great Offices of State’ then look at the absolute weapons who have occupied those positions over the last 6 years
Is it any wonder the country is ****ed?
Unimpressed with sunak's speech.
No reference to the biggest single drag on UK economic performance - yes, it's that there Brexit again.
I have contacts in a number of local authorities and they are deeply concerned about the size of cuts which they anticipate being imposed.
This is going to be painful.
The only cabinet minister who seems competent is Ben Wallace. That we don't hear about him too much is probably a good sign
No reference to the biggest single drag on UK economic performance – yes, it’s that there Brexit again.
Nothing will change until someone in Government finally holds their hand up and admits that everything about Brexit was and is a total disaster.
Even Starmer is only saying he'll look to renegotiate it and "make it work".
While that millstone is around the UK's neck, nothing will change. We can lurch from austerity to tax rises to greater borrowing and back to austerity, the Tory party can change leaders every couple of months, but nothing will fix Brexit.
Every underlying issue now (including the constant changes of Cabinet and leadership with the Tory party) are either a direct result of Brexit or great deal worse than they could have been because of it.
brabdon lewis's resignation statement refers to having held '...eight ministerial roles, across five departments, under four prime ministers'.
What was he doing last year??
The only cabinet minister who seems competent is Ben Wallace.
the same one that backed boris? that one? competent?
Nothing will change until someone in Government finally holds their hand up and admits that everything about Brexit was and is a total disaster.
Realistically, the labour government after the next one?
The Torys aren't going to revisit it, it would be political suicide for Labour to revisit it, so we're at least 3-4 election cycles off.
If you can't mention Brexit then everything else is bullsh*t.
The first rule of British politics is that you can't mention Brexit. The second rule of British politics is....
I was going to say this isn't fight club but it quite evidently is.
If you can’t mention Brexit then everything else is bullsh*t.
Yup. The whole leave bullshit referendum has utterly poisoned the well. All the "leading" Tories are being described by the MSM as "Brexiteer". It's their defining cult.
There is no sensible discussion to be had yet.
Realistically, the labour government after the next one?
Yeah. Probably that. And before that...
This Tory gov, 2 years.
Starmer's Lab gov, 5 years.
The next Tory gov, 5 years.
We have about 12 years before we can even **begin** to de-Brexit ourselves?
And anypne who thinks that Sunaks annointment is good for racial harmony needs their head checking.
Beyond any fallacy that he has been elected to be PM, just wait until the trade deal with India is done. India wants visas for its citizens to come to Britain, lots of them.
How is that going to be squared with the Brexit mob? And more broadly, the optics will look like MP's of Indian (East African) origin doing everything they can to deport black people to Rwanda and the Caribbean in order to make space for Indian immigrants.
We have about 12 years before we can even **begin** to de-Brexit ourselves?
Yup.
In the meantime we can make changes that will reduce divergence, not least for the sake of everyone living in NI (as well as food security and costs for everyone on the mainland). Yesterday the ERG had a boring press conference where they said they were reassured by both (at the time) candidates to be leader that they would be “tough” when it comes to sorting out the NIP. Doesn’t bode well.
Resignations or sackings - doesn't matter but they're coming thick and fast; buckland, berry malthouse, jayawardena in the past 30 mins.
This could lead to much bad blood on backbenches.
Interesting times!
EDIT: also deeply concerning.
The printers of HoC paper must be making a bomb at the moment.
I'm just hoping that with the exit of mogg, his idiotic brexit eu laws subset bill will be gone too
I was going to say this isn’t fight club but it quite evidently is.
So Who's Tyler Durdon? Or rather who's Head is he living in?
Was 'Brexit' really 'Project Mayhem' all along?
Yep that follows...
Starmer cannot mention the 'B' word as he'd instantly lose White Van Man, retired codger and Essex lady. There is still a huge number of people who think leaving Europe was the best thing this century. Melts.
This supposed ‘Government of all the Talents’ looks very much like the same old tired gang of Brexiteer ****-wits to me
Starmer’s Lab gov, 5 years.
I very much doubt that Starmer will last 5 years as PM. I would expect Labour to replace him pretty quickly once in power. The huge thirty plus Labour leads are down to Liz Truss, not Starmer.
Whilst sitting back and letting the Tories eat themselves when in opposition it won't work when in government - Tory open goals won't govern the country.
Starmer took 3 days before he gave a TV interview attacking the Tories's now infamous mini budget, that sort of indecisiveness might work for the leader of the Opposition but it won't work for the office of prime minister.
If Tory support totally collapses at the next general election, as all recent polls have suggested, and Labour wins a mindboggling 150-300 seat majority it will be a huge headache for Starmer - discipline within the Parliamentary Labour Party will be a nightmare to maintain, I expect endless Labour rebellions.
I might be wrong mind and once installed into Number 10 Starmer might metamorphosis into an inspirational authoritative leader and Prime Minister, with a vision which unites the party. I doubt it though.
Cabinet is looking a huge amount like rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic.
6 months tops for this gov
6 months tops for this gov
Optimistic!
They'll hang on for the full term.
James Cleverly stays as Foreign Sec....that says all you need to know. No change...A cabinet full of talentless idiots. Surely there's someone better in the Tory party to hold one of the most important jobs?
On the plus side the toxic beanpole has gone.
Cabinet is looking a huge amount like rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic.
same old tired gang of Brexiteer ****-wits
No disagreement here.
In a short farewell speech earlier, Liz Truss defended her legacy of trying to push through tax cuts
So, like, the legacy that was essentially "one massive fail" ?
I mean, that's actually failing at noticing you failed. Fail, squared.
Starmer thread >>>
This one is for sunak.
Good few of the libertarian right-wingers are getting some senior cabinet roles. More austerity and beatings by the police then. Still at least the rich will be able to trickle down onto us.
Yeah, I just don't care Frank. Proper rebel I am...... I break all the rules.
"Surely there’s someone better in the Tory party to hold one of the most important jobs?"
Sure there is but they'll all be remainers won't they?
I think it's dawning on us that being a grown up isn't sufficient to stop us from tumbling off the cliff edge.
What the country needs right now are politicians who are able to distinguish between a unicorn and an elephant.
I see the poisonous foreigner hater is back as home secretary
Yup, Cruella de Braverthick is back, large and in charge. Awesomes.
What the country needs right now are politicians who are able to distinguish between a unicorn and an elephant.
One is an imaginary creature, and the other one is something I have one of for everybody who voted for Brexshit?
I see the poisonous foreigner hater is back as home secretary
I thought Sunak might be the grown up, rising above the need to pander to the Daily Mail. Clearly not though. The appointment of that terrible human being has shown he really is just a nasty Tory.
She really is an appalling, cruel and nasty person who should never serve in public office, let along as Home Sec.
Hmmm. So I like the fact he's mixed loyalties perhaps preferring expertise over loyalty. I'm nervous of Braverman, having a Doh! moment at Raab's re-entry onto the front bench, and surprised Mourdant hasn't been given a role.
Its at times like these that I like to pinch my nose and have a look at the Daily Mail comments pages to get a feel for what the Tory voters think. Luckily I work for a organisation who blocks the Daily Mail as inappropriate content. I'm quite proud of them for that!
Found a pic of suella reacting to her reappointment as Home Secretary
https://twitter.com/rainmaker1973/status/1582752033509363714?s=61&t=XQUiB70TxmFFSQ7guWO0nQ
braverman - bad for migrants and human rights; good for brexiters.
raab - bad for legal profession and human rights.
cleverley and zahawi - just bad.
shapps - if he's the answer or solution, what can the question or problem be??
dowden - why?
This re-shuffle looks like nothing more than a re-tread.
EDIT: if gove gets an appointment that will be putting a fox in the hen house.
While I concede that he has to pander to the erg / Brexit loving / daily mail reading voter and more importantly MP's , it sickens me to see her back in that roll.
The current confirmed cabinet just shows that the party, and government are stuck in a rut they are either unwilling or unable (or both) to get out of.
shapps – if he’s the answer or solution, what can the question or problem be??
The only question to which Grant Shapps is the answer is 'Who is Michael Green?'
Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
Looks like Suella will get to realise her dream after all
A PM who is the child of immigrants and a Home Secretary who’s also the child of immigrants will now get on with their ‘dream’ deporting immigrants to Rwanda
How frightfully progressive
I felt sick when Suella was announced.
Same old, same old. Tories going to Tory.