MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
The ’30p’ Lee Anderson hang-em-and-flog-em narrative is just the death rattle of a load of one-term MP’s who know they’re done. The ‘Small Boats nonsense may play well to the racist pensioners of Eastbourne, but the new intake of Northern Tory MPs drank a bit too much of the Boris Kool Aid with his bullshit about this being a huge shift that he had delivered. There aren’t any small boats landing in Bolton.
Blimey, you have changed your tune binners. About a year ago you were claiming, with very profound conviction, that "red wall" voters were all inherently racist.
In fact you gave your local pub, the Rose and Crown in Ramsbottom, as an example. According to you the clientele, to a man, were misogynist homophobic racists.
Now it turns out that it is among all the posh old gits who live in Eastbourne where you find the racist voters.
So when did "red wall" voters have this Damascene conversion?
I got them all reading the Guardian comrade.
The Rose and Racist have now replaced the pork scratchings with these
I hope you apologised for calling them all bigots.
Obviously it provides an excellent opportunity to slash wages in real terms though.
When it comes to the public sector, that’s an opportunity this government is grabbing with both hands. We know who’s paying for ____ … the working man and woman.
Trouble is large wage growth will stoke more inflation
According to right-wingers it's only the low waged that drives inflation. Never the top money. PMSL if it wasn't so painful.
High wealth individuals? They're the ones sucking up all the resources which is driving this type of inflation. Certainly initially - they use more energy, goods and raw materials.
Currently high interest rates are stoking inflation too for the people that benefit from assets / savings etc.
Interest rate hikes are a tax on borrowers to move money to savers. Period.
Wages at the lower end are so suppressed that an increase is needed to grow the real economy.
The Tories are self defeating on this as are Labour, they both want growth but no one wants to put their hands in their pockets to kick start the growth. And it's the only way it will come.
We are ending up with a even more lop-sided economy where the bottom end are constantly punished for the top end's actions.
Finally with the likes of NHS which is mostly free at the point of use - there can be no wage price spiral because you don't pay for the wages. The government does - irrespective of taxation.
In fact wages are only rising at about half the rate of inflation. It is obvious that wage increases are not the primary cause of current UK inflation – energy prices are.
Inflation is associated with growth and the economy overheating, that is not currently happening.
So much this.
Most inflation can be traced back to a lack of energy or having to import energy etc.
Inflation is complex and CPI doesn't necessarily tell the whole picture just like GDP too.
Monetarists constantly harp on about the only cause of inflation is money - it's total and utter horse shit.
MMT economists have always said a couple of years of inflation is coming - but don't raise interest rates which will drive more inflation; wealthy get more money to spend on limited resources.
Guess what's happening - FED keep lifting interest rates and inflation is starting to tick up. Although the USA's economy is doing well in certain areas.
On topic - I don't think the Tories are finished personally.
Start banning boats and what not - I can see Sunak coming out of this okay with the voters.
So many shifting sands these days.
Let's keep em eye on those polls - still a long way to go time-wise.
Also plenty of potential for black-swan events and terrible economic data to create havoc for the establishment.
The Labour leads is large but I think it's weak. Happy to be wrong on this guess though.
Whatever the CON-servatives say it just seems to be a ruse, to remove more of our rights. It's not like its under control, since they've been in power. My family is part refugee, so I hope it all fail. Besides we need immigration, to back fill the death rate, else we will turn in Japan...
JeZ
On topic – I don’t think the Tories are finished personally.
this. Most people have short memories and Jan 2025 is a long way off yet.
Labours lead is built on sand currently, Starmer had not got his messaging anywhere near what it needs to be.
I don’t think the Tories are finished personally.
I don't believe in making predictions based on crystal ball gazing but it is always worth considering possibilities. And I actually believe there is a possibility of a reconfiguration of British politics not seen in a hundred years.
The huge Labour lead is undoubtedly soft, the proof is that it came extremely rapidly out of almost nowhere, in a period of a month it at least trebled. But it is sustained, it clearly isn't a temporary blip.
As far as I am aware this huge and sustained Labour lead is unprecedented, it certainly suggests that something spectacular has occurred in UK politics.
Whether this can translate into permanent change imo depends on among other things how large the Labour majority is after the next general election. Some respected pollsters are suggesting the possibility of a Labour majority of over 300 and a rump of Tory MPs of well under 100.
Whilst without doubting the pollster's margin of error I consider that to be very unlikely, but the closer we get to that scenario the closer we get to civil war breaking out within the Labour Party.
I think it is realistic to believe that the Labour Party could split into two separate parties, certainly many on both the right and left wings of the party would like to see that happen. In fact the right-wing in the Labour Party is currently actively encouraging those on the left to leave.
If this were to happen I could see many Tory politicians being attracted to a right-wing led Labour Party free of its left-wing. The old Labour Party could in fact take the role of a new conservative party whilst the new party could provide a social-democratic alternative.
The old Tory Party could eventually become the same irrelevance that the once mighty Liberal Party became.
The UK Conservative Party might well be the oldest political party in the world but it doesn't mean that it is immortal, only that Tories have a tendency to know how to adapt.
Start banning boats and what not – I can see Sunak coming out of this okay with the voters.
It is precisely because they are so desperately bankrupt of ideas, as the small boat announcement betrays, that convinces me that the Tories have lost the plot and stand no chance of recovery before the next general election.
No one believes that Albanians should simply circumvent normal immigration processes by arriving in unseaworthy vessels but it is hardly a general election winning policy to target them. And whilst demonising genuine asylum seekers who are fleeing wars and upheavals which we directly helped to create might have had some success again it is hardly a general election winning policy.
People are concerned about energy prices, affordable transport, decent wages, and the cost of living crises. If you can't address that then using the plight of desperate people isn't going to help you.
If immigration is ever an issue which is perceived to affect the lives of ordinary voters it is a sudden and huge influx of young immigrants. Who often by definition are happy to accept lower wages and conditions, and who place further strain on existing educational and healthcare provisions, not a handful, relatively speaking, of desperate people risking their lives in leaky boats.
Edit: To be clear the Labour Party's criticism of the Tories's handling of the "small boat crisis" is that the Tories are incompetent in dealing with it.
Starmer claims that as PM he would deal with it much better. So if that is an issue which is a general election clincher for you voting Labour might be the solution:
Jan 2025 is a long way off yet.
There is no way they'll wait til then as it'll look like a defeated govt hanging on as long as it can. At the very latest it will be next autumn, but more likely next spring. The campaign will start a long time before that though, probably this autumn so that only really gives them 6 months to do anything.
Start banning boats and what not – I can see Sunak coming out of this okay with the voters.
Its an unworkable policy & they know it
Best they can hope for is that it becomes bogged down in legal disputes & they can frame it as a trick by the dastardly lefty lawyers & hope for some culture war kudos
That schtick has worn incredibly thin, however.
Cost of living crisis is of far greater concern to most, while that dominates the Tories will continue to lag in the polls.
My train fares went up 6% today, thats another kick in the nuts, April sees everyone phone, broadband, etc contracts rise by RPI(14%?) + 4% or similar !!, council tax up 5%, fuel + energy bill still rising hugely- in spite of cap.....
All of that may have improved in 18mths time, in which case Labour may well be under threat in the polls, so much can happen, but worryingly for Tories, Brexit will still be dragging on economy, housing market still excludes millions, NHS & social care system is still broken & there is radio silence on a fix for that...
Fed/inflation stuff for perusal. Similar can be applied here.
https://twitter.com/tyillc/status/1632459616570290180?s=20
https://twitter.com/StephanieKelton/status/1632758441264414722?s=20
Do the Tories really want to get the refugee 'crisis' under control?
Is the small boat situation actually hurting the Tories at the polls? The DM and the like attack the refugees for being refugees rather than hold the Tory party accountable for failed policy and management.
Are the refugees placed in overcrowded hotels in Brexity leaning towns for a purpose? (namely to encourage the kind of yobbish protests we have seen recently).
Of course the plan will be unworkable. It's meant to be unworkable. The new Deputy Chairmon of the Conservative party told as as much when he explained that in the absence of Boris, Brexit and Corbyn, (the BBC as he put it) all the Tories have left to fight the next election with is the culture wars, (his words, not mine).
Do the Tories really want to get the refugee ‘crisis’ under control?
This only dawned on me this morning - the Tories need migrants as the permanent distraction from all their other failings.
The fact that after 13 years nothing has been "fixed" passes by the DM reading core voter. The problem used to the EU, now its migrants, with ever more crazy plans and rhetoric.
In 6 months time they'll announce a plan to have the SBS take them all out silently mid crossing as its what Churchill would have wanted.
Its sickening to see how the government are using migrants to gaslight us all
The irony is that they were warned their Brexit would make things worse
my mum was complaining about migrants being housed in local hotels over the phone the other day, I had to really bite my tongue not to point out that in voting for brexit she helped make it happen
The migrant issue is a great way for the government to gaslight the country, but inflaming those tensions to score culture war points is damaging to the country & potentially incites violence & emboldens the far right
potentially incites violence & emboldens the far right
There's no "potentially" about it... the Home Secretary is writing the banners for far right protestors.
Home Secretary Suella Braverman said the bill would push "the boundaries of international law" without breaking it
yeah right, if you need to say it then it's a lie.
In 6 months time they’ll announce a plan to have the SBS take them all out silently mid crossing as its what Churchill would have wanted.
didn't they try that with the navy, who told them to poke it as the SOLAS convention trumps bullshit tory propaganda.
my mum was complaining about migrants being housed in local hotels over the phone the other day, I had to really bite my tongue not to point out that in voting for brexit she helped make it happen
Why did you bite your tongue?
I still marvel at the fact that this casual inhumanity and dehumanising of ‘others’ is predominantly being driven by the children of immigrants 😳
Its sickening to see how the government are using migrants to gaslight us all
my mum was complaining about migrants being housed in local hotels over the phone the other day, I had to really bite my tongue not to point out that in voting for brexit she helped make it happen
You think that governments in EU member states don't demonise desperate immigrants and asylum seekers in leaky boats for cheap political gain?
Are you for real?
With respect your mother obviously needs some education concerning the plight of desperate people, but whilst you are helping her understand the truth you could also explain to her why the EU allows this to regularly occur:
Children among 59 people killed in boat wreck off Italy’s coast
More than 100,000 refugees arrived in Italy by boat in 2022. The rightwing government of the prime minister, Giorgia Meloni, which came to power in October, imposed tough measures against sea rescue charities, including fining them up to €50,000 (£44,000) if they flout a requirement to request a port and sail to it immediately after undertaking one rescue instead of remaining at sea to rescue people from other boats in difficulty.
Rescues in recent months have resulted in ships being granted ports in central and northern Italy, forcing them to make longer journeys and therefore reducing their time at sea saving lives. Charities had warned that the measure would lead to thousands of deaths.
Italy being an EU member state has not hampered its Brothers of Italy neo-fascist Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni from pursuing her anti-refugee/asylum seeker agenda one iota.
I have no idea why you think people applying for asylum in the UK are being housed in hotels local to your mum is the result of the UK leaving the EU (where were they housed before?), but I do know that the most right-wing Prime Minister in Italy since the end of World War Two said that Italy should "repatriate migrants back to their countries and then sink the boats that rescued them”.
It makes Priti Patel and Suella Braverman almost sound like soft liberal snowflakes.
Are you for real?
Are you just making stuff up?
No claims were made about the governments of other countries and their policies towards asylum seekers and immigrants, only that voting for Brexit has made things worse here (presumably just a reference to the removal of and lack of replacement of agreements we had with neighbouring countries that were connected to our membership of the EU .. but I'd go further... the success of the "control our borders" wins of Brexit and subsequent elections has shown that "close the doors" policies can deliver votes and power in the UK).
No I have copied and pasted what someone has posted.
Edit: Oh I see that you have done your usual sly unannounced editing Kelvin.
Listen mate I can't be arsed discussing this with you. There are very few things that wind me up on here but racism when accompanied with hypocrisy is one of them so probably best to leave it. I prefer good humoured debates 💡
Don't try and put words into someone else's mouth... and then call them out on it then.
I mean... are you for real?!?
Do the Tories really want to get the refugee ‘crisis’ under control?
it's not really a crisis for the UK in the grand scheme of things. It's a crisis for those trying to come here, a crisis for people living in the Dover area and a crisis for the immigration service but not a big deal for the country as a whole given the other issues we face at the moment.
If the government really wanted to sort out asylum seekers we'd build fit for purpose centres to house and support people whilst their asylum claims are processed in a humanitarian, professional and timely manner. Those with asylum granted would then be supported into society, those that were not would be promptly removed or placed in longer term detention facilities if that's not possible. None of that makes good headlines and will be costly and difficult to do so no they don't have any motivation to get it under control.
It's ironic the last we got excited by small boats crossing the channel they were heros.
That's some great whataboutery there ernie
Since Brexit & exiting Dublin agreement migrants can no longer be returned to France
France has offered several times to allow UK to set up processing centres to examine claims in France, UK gov refused several times, theres no way that this can be fixed without better cooperation France & the EU, but thats anathema to the brexiteers.
I see Sunak is going to Dover to show he's 'serious' about it, tories just hoping that they can use this as a stick to beat labour when they vote against it
Cruella spouting more evil rhetoric in the HoC right now.
"Almost all past through France". So ****ing what?
Don’t try and put words into someone else’s mouth… and then call them out on it then.
I haven't put words in anyone's mouth, I copied and pasted someone else's word's and asked a question. If I misunderstood their point then it is clear for everyone to see and the person can correct me.
This pathetic attempt to blame absolutely everything on brexit is becoming evermore tedious. As is this pretence that asylum seekers aren't demonized throughout the EU and that it is some sort of unique UK/Tory issue.
this pretence that asylum seekers aren’t demonized throughout the EU
Who said that?
Did anyone else read the bit about placing a "duty on the home secretary to deport them "as soon as reasonably practicable"" and think it's Sunak setting up Braverman and the loons to fail?
That’s some great whataboutery there ernie
The issue of the demonization of desperate people in leaky unseaworthy vessels is one that goes way beyond the UK. But you repeatedly project it as something unique to the UK. It isn't even unique to the Tories - don't expect anything dramatically different with the next Labour government.
Some great hypocrisy there kimbers.
I remember how we were an immigrant's utopia before 2016. People weren't being locked up in places like Campsfield House and Yarl's Wood before then and we didn't force asylum seekers into poverty by barring them from working. I also remember how the labour party didn't disgrace itself with slogans like "British jobs for british people' or make mugs boasting about how tough they were. 🙄
Did anyone else read the bit about placing a “duty on the home secretary to deport them “as soon as reasonably practicable”” and think it’s Sunak setting up Braverman and the loons to fail?
I think I read that as "...one shall cover one's own arse just in case..."
“Almost all past through France”. So **** what?
Maybe her understanding of geography is about the same as Raabs and so considers this to be an evil plot rather than just wheres closest.
They really are just making it up as they go along now. Just chucking out any old hysterical nonsense…
Braverman claims 100m people could qualify for asylum without law change
Would your parents have qualified Suella? Rishi’s folks? Priti’s?
I can’t see how the bile she’s presently spouting differs in any way to this
Since Brexit, the Tory’s rapidly morphed into UKIP and now they’re well on their way to becoming the National Front
Having made an unpopular comment on a political thread on here before and being called all sorts of names....flame resistant coat donned.
I do think this policy is barking......
However I do see there is an absolute pressing need to stop small boats and hearing horror stories about kids drowning at sea. The only positive I can see is that they are trying to completely remove this as a way to get into the country, and therefore I would hope stopping the people traffickers
I cannot think of any other way to stop those traffickers and it looks like the situation will just get worse without action.
I also thought the point of asylum was the first safe country not the final one. I am not anti asylum. One of the main reasons people voted for brexit was controlling of borders, so you can absolutely see why the conservatives are pushing this. Rightly or wrongly.
I wouldn't like to call how Labour would tackle this if they were actually having to try to sort it out, rather than just in opposition. My crystal ball isn't as good as others on here
Would your parents have qualified Suella? Rishi’s folks? Priti’s?
I do sometimes think thats one way they could persuade more people to support their hate campaign. Something like "What if the current potential immigrants have children like us? Is it worth the risk? Ban them all".
This pathetic attempt to blame absolutely everything on brexit is becoming evermore tedious. As is this pretence that asylum seekers aren’t demonized throughout the EU and that it is some sort of unique UK/Tory
Sigh
Brexit has made the small boats problem worse, exactly as Cameron warned during the ref campaign
And its possible to find Italys treatment of migrants abhorrent and acknowledged that Brexit has increased boat crossings in the Channel
I remember how we were an immigrant’s utopia before 2016.
Likewise no one said that
In fact the main backlash against Camerons comments at the time was that he described migrants as a swarm,
tragically that kind of dehumanising language seems pretty normalised by the right these days
I cannot think of any other way to stop those traffickers
I wonder if they've tried making it illegal? 🙄
Seriously, the only way to prevent the problem of small boats is to make them unnecessary by allowing people to come here legally. Much like the war on drugs, the prohibition of the activity is what makes it the playground of gangsters and criminals.
What Dazh said.
First set of rolled eyes I see
remember that thread about echo chamber?
there are legal channels for people to come here.
maybe threads should have a warning at the top saying "must only have the same frothing viewpoint as big hitters to join in, debate and seeing from others viewpoints not accepted here"
to be fair, that's the unwritten rule on this forum and politic threads
If everyone arriving in the UK to claim asylum (by the only route they can find) are to be denied the right to claim asylum and taken out of the country … where will they be going? Without a return agreement with EU countries, what’s the plan? Illegally smuggle them into France? Pay third countries to take them? It all smells of getting out the vote in May, doesn’t it. Actual implementation would prove to be a nightmare for all involved.
others viewpoints not accepted here
All viewpoints accepted (as in you can post them and they won’t be removed). Agreement not guaranteed. Disagreement likely. Otherwise it would be an echo chamber.
I also thought the point of asylum was the first safe country not the final one.
Not really. Someone fleeing Afghanistan (for example) speaks English and has relatives in the UK is obviously going to want to cross Europe to come to the UK. It simply makes sense - it wouldn't make sense to force them to stay in Italy because that's where their small boat had eventually ran aground.
Also there is no reason why certain countries such as Italy or Greece should disproportionately carry the burden of providing asylum simply because of their geographical locations.
There is quite a relaxed attitude towards providing refuge to Ukrainians fleeing war, no one suggests that only countries such as Poland should provide refuge, I can't see why it should be different for non-Europeans.
What Ernie said.
Some refugee stats for you DT78 …
https://www.unhcr.org/refugee-statistics/
69%
hosted in neighbouring countries
74%
hosted in low- and middle-income countries
36%
hosted in five countriesTürkiye 3.7 million
Colombia 2.5 million
Germany 2.2 million
****stan 1.5 million
Uganda 1.5 million
its possible to find Italys treatment of migrants abhorrent
And yet never mention it whilst banging on endlessly about the UK's treatment of migrants?
The reality is that Europe's widespread racism and its treatment of desperate people, fleeing desperate situations, invariably created by European governments, is shameful.
And it is hardly unique to the UK and the Tory Party - who aren't even the worse offenders. Not that anyone reading just your posts would ever know.
I'm disinheriting my parents, as those traitors didn't stay in London during the blitz ,they went off through numerous safe counties and ended up in Devon.
The little ****ers should have stayed and fought the Nazis.
there are legal channels for people to come here.
I seem to recall Suella being unable to name any when challenged on it in a recent parliamentary hearing.
maybe threads should have a warning at the top saying “must only have the same frothing viewpoint as big hitters to join in, debate and seeing from others viewpoints not accepted here”
If you're going to regurgitate ignorant daily mail talking points then expect to be called out for it. If you have a sensible point to make about the small boats problem lets have it, but punishing the victims of racist UK policy and criminal people traffickers is clearly 'anti-asylum' which you say you're not.
This law wont stop a single boat coming here.
If anything, it's a marketing opportunity for the people smugglers, "get over there before this new law comes into effect!"
It's just more demonisation fron a morally bankrupt, malignant Tory party.
It's all they have left.
I didn't say I agreed with the policy. I said I can see why they are doing it. to stop boats and gain votes
that is different.
I also said I can't see what else they can do. it is a right mess.
if you guys have such stunning plans to solve the issues why aren't you up there sorting it?
eye rolling and calling people ignorant isn't helpful if you want a genuine debate, but you don't really want a debate do you....
I seem to recall Suella being unable to name any when challenged on it in a recent parliamentary hearing.
The legal methods are on display in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet, stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying “Beware of the Leopard”
It is clearly the immigrants own fault for not appraising themselves of the correct handshake, dance and passphrase required to enter the country legally before embarking on their journey.
I also said I can’t see what else they can do. it is a right mess.
It is a rather small problem for the nation, being blown out of all proportion as a distraction to 13 disastrous years of tory rule and 50 years of damaging neoliberalism. What they could do is take the heat out of the situation and stop appealing to racist tendencies.
FFS Google:
Section 19b statement.
MPs are going to be warned that the proposed legislation might be incompatible with people's basic rights as human beings and therefore illegal!
I also said I can’t see what else they can do.
I just gave you a solution as to what else they can do and you haven't responded. Instead of having a debate you're moaning because no one agrees with your opinion.
I said I can see why they are doing it. to stop boats and gain votes
It won't stop a single boat and is quite probably illegal on various grounds. If anything, I'm willing to bet it'll make the next few weeks even worse as everyone tries to beat the deadline, even though the Tories tried to backdate the policy.
I also said I can’t see what else they can do. it is a right mess.
They could have accepted France's post-Brexit offer of setting up a migrant processing centre in Calais, removing at a stroke the opportunity for people smugglers to be transporting them across the Channel. UK declined.
Brexit means the Dublin Protocol no longer applies so ironically it's now more difficult to send migrants back to a "the first safe country" - hence the appalling attempts to ship them off to Rwanda and forget about them.
The fact remains that most people arriving here by whatever means DO actually have a legal right to asylum once their application has been processed. The UK just doesn't like to admit that and makes the whole thing as difficult, dangerous and expensive as possible.
if you guys have such stunning plans to solve the issues why aren’t you up there sorting it?
These are the people elected to serve the country and paid a great deal of money to do that.
The fact that we've ended up with a corrupt bunch of self-serving grifters and racists is very unfortunate but it's still not something that any of us can "just get up and sort".
@DT78 I'd give up now, there's no point in trying to have nuanced debate about the practicalities of immigration. I've just deleted the rest of my post as I really can't be bothered arguing with the lefties.
I also said I can’t see what else they can do.
The obvious solution is to not insist that people get their arses over here before even considering their asylum application.
There are no people traffickers associated with Ukrainian refugees, why do you think that might be?
Fill yer boots up:
I’ve just deleted the rest of my post as I really can’t be bothered arguing with the lefties.
And then you complain about the echo chamber. Honestly you guys! 😀
And then you complain about the echo chamber. Honestly you guys! 😀
Oh dear, there goes the irony meter.
take a look at your aggressive and condescending responses, the reason you guys aren't up there sorting it out is because you wouldn't last 10minutes in the real world of politics. And I also agree the tories are a complete shit show, however I do not have red tinted glasses which makes me believe labour would somehow magically make all this go away. Nor do I own a time machine to go back and right wrongs of past decisions.
You have to move forward, with what is achievable now, and sadly, what the majority of people will agree with. If you are in the minority the point of democracy is you accept it, you can challenge and debate (and if you want to your points to land, ideally without insulting). If you the decisions don't go your way, its how democracy works
'just make it legal to apply' if so simple why hasn't it happened? Because its not that easy, and because whether you guys like it, it is not likely to be supported by the majority of voters.
I do think shipping people off to rwanda is ridiculous on so many levels and I would not be surprised if it is upheld as illegal. Would love to see the whatsapp messages from the legal advice the tories must have sort before they announced these policies
I don't think I agree, though can be convinced either way, that 'choice' should be part of asylum. I do understand that puts undue burden on countries closer to conflict and completely understand why those claiming asylum would have preferences. But then again I don't agree with 'choice' for people on lots of subjects, giving people choice is what has got us into several messes....
I didn’t say I agreed with the policy. I said I can see why they are doing it. to stop boats and gain votes
It won't stop the boats. They won't gain votes by stopping the boats anyway - people only believed immigration was a major issue because that is what they were told to believe.
I also said I can’t see what else they can do. it is a right mess.
There's quite a few things they could do:
1. Allow anyone to go to the British Embassy in the first country they arrive in and request asylum, or special permission to travel.
2. Open processing centres in France or other third countries, nobody had to cross the channel in small boats.
3. Provide employment visas for those who wish to come through a structured scheme to make up for the EU fruit pickers etc we blocked with Brexit; both helping people come AND blocking the gangs
4. Make it easier for asylum seekers to work whilst their application is processed - many of the gangs have people on the hook because there is no viable way for them to survive outside the gang-supported illegal work.
5. Speed up the processing of applications - that removes the risk of losing people to the system, and minimises the opportunities for the gangs to profit when people have little other choice
6. Fund asylum support for councils so that it is not a burden on local communities and maybe you'll find public opinion turning.
if you guys have such stunning plans to solve the issues why aren’t you up there sorting it?
It may have escaped your notice, but I'm not a tory politician... therefore I can make all the noise I want but it won't be "sorting it". They aren't sorting it themselves because ideologically they don't want it sorted, in fact if the problem didn't exist at all they'd have a bigger problem as possibly their only selling point to angry votes is "but we are tough on immigration - let the other lot in at your peril".
eye rolling and calling people ignorant isn’t helpful if you want a genuine debate, but you don’t really want a debate do you….
I'm happy for debate - so go on, since you said there were legal routes for people to come - what is the safe and legal route for say a 15 year old Somalian orphan to get to the UK where he has an Aunt and Uncle with permanent leave to remain? Indeed there's no safe and "legal" route open to anyone except some Afghans and Ukrainians, unless you qualify as a spouse or are sponsored by an employer etc. (Technically its not illegal to cross in a small boat and claim asylum either).
"Since Brexit, the Tory’s rapidly morphed into UKIP and now they’re well on their way to becoming the National Front"
If there was ever any confusion about this then Sunak's appointment of Lee Anderson erases any doubt.
take a look at your aggressive and condescending responses
To be honest I very much agree with that comment. You did take some unjustifiable flak imo. You didn't exactly go into a racist rant over the issue.
And as apparently expressing a minority point of view, ie, "what else can the government do?" everyone piling onto you isn't exactly going to help the debate.
I guess that for some people it is quite an emotive issue, I know it can be for me despite the fact that on pretty much everything else I am always totally chilled - I very rarely take anything very seriously on here, including myself!
It always seemed absurd to me to punish the people on the boats. They get told by the smugglers that everything's legit, so they're acting in good faith. Punishing them when they get here is nonsensical. Are we running campaigns in their countries of origin telling them not to trust people smugglers?
people only believed immigration was a major issue because that is what they were told to believe.
This is a very good point imo.
Edit: It reminds me of when there were 3 million unemployed in the UK and all the opinion polls showed that voters considered unemployment to be the biggest issue.
And yet when exactly the same people were asked the question "what is the most important issue to you and your family?" unemployment didn't rank very high.
Most people weren't unemployed so they didn't feel that it affected them directly, although it probably did in terms of wages, level of crime locally, etc.
People try to give the "correct answer" when asked by pollsters. It doesn't however always provide evidence of how they will vote.
I don’t think I agree, though can be convinced either way, that ‘choice’ should be part of asylum. I do understand that puts undue burden on countries closer to conflict and completely understand why those claiming asylum would have preferences. But then again I don’t agree with ‘choice’ for people on lots of subjects, giving people choice is what has got us into several messes….
Its easy to work out if there should be choice or not. Lets imagine there's a massive shit storm in the UK. Say some political rioting goes crazy, Russia pumps some money to the right people the government collapses and the organised crime gangs basically rule the roost and suddenly we aren't worrying about whether e-bikes should have 15 kph speed limits but about where your next meal is coming from. A friend calls you to say that because of who your last employer was your name is now on a hit list. They know where you live and who your family are. So your choice is simple, stay here under constant threat or flee the country. Because everyone else is doing the same there are no flights so you manage to get a lift for you and your family on a boat to France. None of you speak French. You can stay in France basically begging from the state - but you've got cousins in Canada and New Zealand. They speak English there. Your job skills should be relevant there even if you might need to get recertified for some parts. Should you be able to go to a country where you feel safe, have connections and potentially prospects or should you be compelled to stay in France because that was the closest border? Isn't it better for the whole world if we all share the problems?
@poly in answer to your scenario, the child could apply to join their settled aunt/uncle under paragraph 297 of the rules.
Or if their relatives aren't settled but do have leave to remain as refugees, they could apply under paragraph 319x.
So let's get this clear, the country isn't in a mess because the Irish, the carribeans, Indians ,gays, EU or lefties it's the people that turn up in the boats?
I really can't keep up with who's fault it is anymore.
Logan's Run...
I've said it before and I'll say it again, we have become a country dictated to by the elders. Asylum seekers and congestion causing cyclists dominate the news cycles because the average age of a Telegraph or DM reader, or viewer of Good Morning Britain is in their 60's, retired and has nothing better to do than sit at home and consume news all day.
They aren't employed or trying to run a business, they don't have kids in school, they don't really have an investment or stake in the Country's future yet the nation cleaves to their, (almost entirely irrelevant) concerns.
The truth is that they don't really have any concerns, (mortgage paid off, their kids will get a leg up with the inheritance etc) so the right wing media manufactures some concerns for them.
This is a new reality for Western societies, a generation or two ago the average voter (and media consumer) was much, much younger, likely economically active and very much invested in the Country's future.
I was reading an Owen Jones piece recently which touched on the demographic issue. Our only hope apparently is that the millenials are bucking the time honoured trend of gradually turning towards the Conservative party as they age, they simply aren't buying this bulls**t.
So in the interim, whilst were waiting for the millenials to come into demographic ascendancy, I'm giving up all hope.
take a look at your aggressive and condescending responses
Give over. If you're talking about me I'll admit to some mild sarcasm, but aggressive? 🤷♂️
giving people choice is what has got us into several messes….
Now that is condescending. Clearly you don't apply the same rules to yourself as you do to others.
so you think asking the populace about brexit was a great plan?!
and poly one your scenario about what I would do personally is I probably would stay in France...(though more likely I would have tried to head to scandavia)
I wouldn't risk my family in an illegal attempt trying to reach another country if I was safe where I was, no matter how uncomfortable. that's where it goes from safety to more about comfort / economics.
I would be confident in my ability to learn the language and do my best to contribute and make it work. I'd be focusing on that as a priority. if legal opportunities came up to move I would.
As I have a flavour of being a preper it is actually something I've thought about quite a bit.
I think the refugees are being sold a line as much as the UK public.
maybe the policy won't stop boats, but I do think the tories believe it will gain them votes
maybe the policy won’t stop boats,
I sincerely doubt even suella deville believes it'll work. they are just playing for daily mail headlines.
I wouldn’t risk my family in an illegal attempt trying to reach another country if I was safe where I was, no matter how uncomfortable.
You have absolutely no idea how you would behave in an extreme situation that you have never been in.
You might feel that you don't agree with their judgement but that is what it is - their judgement and what they feel is safe and best for themselves and their families.
maybe the policy won’t stop boats, but I do think the tories believe it will gain them votes
I doubt that the Tories believe it will gain them votes. There are local elections coming up, how many voters do you think are concerned about desperate people in small boats compared to voters concerned with rising council tax, failing services, potholes, etc?
It won't win them significant votes but it will push other stuff out of the news.
Just look at the Rishi Sunak thread on STW, it's the only thing being discussed.
so you think asking the populace about brexit was a great plan?!
I think asking the populace about anything and everything is a great plan. It's called democracy and we don't have nearly as much of it as we should. If we had properly functioning democracy, then the brexit vote probably wouldn't have happened. I also firmly believe that people would be more generous towards issues around immigration if we had more democracy, and we wouldn't have the cost of living crisis, the NHS crisis, the schools crisis, and god knows what other crises. The path to an enlightened, educated and mutually supportive society starts with people having the power to make decisions for themselves and their community.
The path to an enlightened, educated and mutually supportive society starts with people having the power to make decisions for themselves and their community.
Which is all well and good when the information that people are getting about it is factual and presented in a calm and reasonable way.
Nothing about Brexit was presented in that way - in fact what did it for the vote was Remain behaving in a calm and reasonable way pointing out why it was a catastrophically shit idea because of x law and y protocol and z funding and Leave going "take back control!!" and "sov-rin-tee!" and "stop the boats!".
News has long since stopped being anything calm and reasonable and fact-based, it's become a sensationalist free-for-all designed to get clicks and likes and shares. Print shite on the front page now, apologise for it 3 days later at the bottom of page 27.
Same here - you can publish all the facts you want around immigration and no-one will care; they'll go off the Dail Wail front page assuring them that every immigrant gets a room in a palace, unlimited benefits, a flatscreen TV and a phone and then simultaneously takes our jobs while also receiving millions in benefits.
I sincerely doubt even suella deville believes it’ll work. they are just playing for daily mail headlines
She knows full well it won’t work. It won’t even get that far and they know it.
The legal people are already saying that this whole thing will fall apart upon first contact with the real world, when it is challenged legally, as it clearly breaks international law
But… just detail, that.
It’s just more dog-whistle bullshit to appease their racist base and tickle the tums of Daily Telegraph editorial writers
The same as Rwanda. Nobody has been deported to Rwanda and nobody ever will be. It’s just then saying ‘we want to deport them all to Rwanda, but Labour/lefty lawyers/the liberal elite won’t let us’. Booooo hiss…. apparently we can’t even push them back into the sea either. Bloody go-gooders!
The question everyone needs to be asking is just how much money these pie-in-the-sky ‘policy’ announcements and legal challenges are costing.
Surely the whole Rwanda scheme must be well into the billions now and everyone knows it’s just unworkable bullshit that’ll never happen
Today is just more of the same