He doesn't seem to be driven by hatred, just greed .That is a slight improvement.
And lets not forget, this is the man who couldn’t beat Liz Truss when his campaigning skills were tested out in the real world. In that campaign he came across as an aloof, out of touch patronising elitist, which is hardly surprising given his personal circumstances.
As much as I hate the DM there's an interesting piece by Dominic Lawson who poses the question that although Sunak is further to the right than Johnson he (Sunak) just wasn't white enough for the membership..
An aside - I think anyone debating with Truss would be bored & could quite easily be misconstrued. If nothing else he was right that her economic plans were going to be a fing disaster.
Not as much as it might seem imo.
All non-white Tory MPs appear to have one thing in common apart from the fact that they aren’t white – they are all on the right of the party, and some of them extremely right-wing.
Some truth in this..
I'll concede that having a non white PM will project a more progressive image of the UK to an international audience for the first time in quite a few years but im not sure how much of a positive it is domestically.
The narrative is hardly the same as if it were David Lammy, or even Sajid Javed getting elected to run the country.
Some truth in this..
I tend to think that the overwhelmingly similar trait that these folks (Rishi, Braverman, Patel) share is probably wealth and a somewhat privileged upbringing which has influenced their politics
if that is really a step forward it isn’t a huge step forward imo.
Having said that it looks very likely that before the end of the day a European country will have an Asian practicing Hindu Prime Minister, which is particularly remarkable
Make your mind up!
Labour have already said that they'll end non-dom status (announced back in April, and one of those policies confirmed at their Party Conference), which just happens to make them "ready for Rishi". Expect that to pop up quite often if he does become PM. He'd better have been practising a better response than "leave my wife alone" and "to smear my wife to get at me is awful" when non-dom status is brought up in questions to him.
Ready for Rishi to press the ground-zero button on the real economy?
The paper thin veil of competence dressed up as good for the country.
Will he be seen as competent while schools and councils are broke, ambulances queue outside hospitals, the old and the sick die during a cold snap, the working poor are choosing not to eat so they can feed their kids...? It's going to be a hard winter, made worse by him and his party... portraying "competence" at this stage is going to need far more than Hunt's unrolling of Truss&Kwarteng's gambling budget that wasn't a budget. What is Sunak's plan...? Will he get to be PM without having to even give us an outline of what he wants to do? [ spoiler - yes, he proabably will ]
Make your mind up!
I have made up my mind. A European country having a Hindu as Prime Minister is quite remarkable, indisputably imo.
And not least because another European less than a week ago chose a fascist to be their Prime Minister.
Does it represent a huge step forward for Black and Asian people in the UK? No, I don't think so. It represents a small step forward perhaps.
Did Priti Patel becoming Home Secretary and the subsequent racist asylum rules which she implemented represent a huge step forward for Black and Asian people? No, I don't think so.
I think the fact that Sunak went to Winchester studied PEE at Oxford, interned for the Tories and was both a Fulbright and went to Stanford suggests Plus ca change plus a meme chose
From that perspective, his elevation isn’t remarkable at all.
I do wish that the Look North news on State Media Outlet BBC would stop speaking of him as if he were a local lad, just because the safe seat he was parachuted into is in North Yorkshire.
Not sure if he’s a practicing Hindu
Why not, because it doesn't fit in which his professionally managed PR image of a slick young liberal Asian?
Rishi Sunak is a devout Hindu:
"Sunak, a devoted Hindu who attends the Southampton temple where he was born on a daily basis"
Coincidentally I attended that ^^ Hindu festival at exactly the same place as Rishi Sunak only three days later. Admittedly I am not not a Hindu, I didn't do much praying, but Sunak and his wife definitely are.
the Southampton temple where he was born on a daily basis
Being resurrected as Tory leader is the least of his talents, then 🙂
Racism not exclusively a white issue shocker. It's well documented there are racial tensions amongst all sorts of groups. It's also not a shock to realise there are right wing non white people in the conservative party. Many will be second or third generation who saw their parents succeed without a lot of support, this will have informed their political outlook. It's also well documented that previous immigrant waves are often against the next wave of immigration.
At least with Sunak we might have a Prime Minister that doesn't keep embarrassing the country in public like the last 2. I predict Sunak will last until the next election in 2 years at which point the Tories will be out. Doesn't really matter how good or bad he is, we've not yet reached the bottom of the hole yet so there will be no significant improvement come polling day.
Also don't underestimate how well austerity will play with a lot of the electorate. There will be a lot quite of people who will be happy to see lower income people squeezed hard during this. The whole benefit scrounger / work shy wage earner plays well with many. There will also be a lot of people who believe him when he says we have no choice and need to balance the books.
I tend to think that the overwhelmingly similar trait that these folks (Rishi, Braverman, Patel) share is probably wealth and a somewhat privileged upbringing which has influenced their politics
Not really. Plenty of Tories from privileged and wealthy backgrounds aren't on the hard-right of the Tory Party. None of them appear to be Black or Asian.
Most if not all Black and Asian Tory MPs are on the right of the Tory Party.
There has to be a reason for this because Black and Asian people in the UK, as a general rule, for obvious reasons, tend to be more left-wing than right-wing. Including successful professionals.
IMO being Black or Asian in the Tory Party drives people to be more conservative as they try to overcome the barriers placed on them for being Black or Asian.
That's my explanation anyway, what's yours for this apparent weird anomaly?
Sunak has it.
Racism not exclusively a white issue shocker.
What is even more shocking is when a Home Secretary admits that her parents would not have been allowed into the UK, had the racist asylum rules which she herself is enthusiastically implementing, had existed when they applied.
As in the case of the Home Secretary of less than 2 months ago.
My biggest concern is that Mordaunt will get the 100 & the members will get a say. To be blunt they should be permanently excluded from such a role after the clusterF*** they created last time..
Why not, because it doesn’t fit in which his professionally managed PR image of a slick young liberal Asian?
No, because he’s talking about Varadker’s religious practice not Sunak’s
because he’s talking about Varadker’s religious practice not Sunak’s
When he says: "Not sure if he’s a practicing Hindu"? Strange.
Edit: Okay I get it now, I just don't understand why Varadker was mentioned, especially if no one knows whether he is a Hindu. Sunak is definitely a devout Hindu.
My biggest concern is that Mordaunt will get the 100 & the members will get a say. To be blunt they should be permanently excluded from such a role after the clusterF*** they created last time..
It's an inherent issue with a system where party members have the final say. You have the potential to select a party leader who is only supported by a minority of MPs. It's what happened with Corbyn too.
Okay I get it now, I just don’t understand why Varadker was mentioned, especially if no one knows whether he is a Hindu. Sunak is definitely a devout Hindu.
You made a statement earlier that implied Sunak would be the first asian/hindu leader in Europe. I don't think that's what you were saying, but it could easily have been read that way.
So… Sunak gets to take over without uttering a word in public about what he’s going to do?
Imagine the heart attacks among the Tory membership if they have to choose between a woman who isn't a wannabe Thatcher and a brown man.
So… Sunak gets to take over without uttering a word in public about what he’s going to do?
& given that he's a staunch brexiteer is cause for concern but at least he knows how to use an abacus whereas I'm not sure Truss could even spell abacus.
Bottom line is we need a GE but we sure as F ain't gonna get it!
We know what sunak will do; exactly what he said when campaigning against truss.
The problems haven't fundamentally changed and it's highly improbable he's undergone a damascene conversion; I can't see him reversing any of the changes which hunt has recenty made but outside that it will be austerity on steroids.
As for mordaunt, even if she passes the threshold the indicative vote by tory MPs later today is likely to impose further pressure on her to withdraw.
If she doesn't then the tory membership of c170k will be free to exercise their racist and sexist tendencies.
Talk about an early GE is just...talk; it won't happen.
The tories are about self-preservation, not annihilation.
Mordaunt withdraws.
PM sunak.
Thank F those geriatrics aren't getting a say this time.
On the upside someone who can add & subtract, on the downside now we've just a hardline right wing brexiteer in charge - oh fing joy..
Colour me confused or what. Am I relived that someone "competent" is at the wheel or concerned that someone who advocated "no deal" is at the wheel. What a sh1t show!
I guess my concern is that Sunak has the nouse to carry out what Truss tried but less of a bull in a china shop on speed & will do it via stealth & austerity.
IM dissapointed only because I hoped the clown show would go on with a further week of Tory bickering
Sunak probably the wiser choice than Mordaunt, but the austerity train is a coming...
Becomes first-ever Hindu PM on Diwali. Surely that is propitious?
Talk about an early GE is just…talk; it won’t happen.
The tories are about self-preservation, not annihilation.
Well obviously the Tories certainly won't willingly call an early general election, but that isn't the goal. The goal is to force them into a general election which they don't want to call.
This can be helped along by relentlessly focusing on the fact that they have no mandate for every new unpopular policy which they announce, and demanding that they put it to the electorate.
The more they resist the more they will undermine their legitimacy and authority in the eyes of the public. It will help to maintain their historically low level of support and help to make the recently new and overwhelming anti-Tory vote more established and solid.
Their illegitimacy will be a millstone round their necks at every by-election and local elections.
Things will not get better for the Tories politically or economically, they are very deeply divided as a party and on economic direction. With ever increasing public hostility there should be a point where delaying the inevitable will simply be counterproductive.
The very fact that they won't hold a general election should be a stick to beat them with, not a prompt for resigned acceptance, a point which Kier Starmer appears to have grasped. I hope he maintains it.
And not least because another European less than a week ago chose a fascist to be their Prime Minister.
I do worry that "also" is missing from this sentence.
So… Sunak gets to take over without uttering a word in public about what he’s going to do?
WHY DO YOU HATE DEMOCRACY?!
Thank F those geriatrics aren’t getting a say this time.
I do wonder whether they've made a misstep here. The demographic makeup of the tory party members is well regarded, I wouldn't be surprised if fury was erupting somewhere right now.
When I was little if you were I'll the doctor would come and visit you.
Crazy but true.
10 years ago if you were injured you called an ambulance and they would come and visit you.
Neither of these things happen anymore.
Tories,whatever colour they are ,are all ****s.
**** every single one of them.
Aditya Chakrabortty
@chakrabortty
Whatever side you're on, whatever your ethnicity, this is truly a historic moment.
The UK has its first Goldman Sachs Prime Minister.
Becomes first-ever Hindu PM on Diwali. Surely that is propitious?
Or, totally coincidental.
Well obviously the Tories certainly won’t willingly call an early general election,
Honestly, I'm not sure about this. There's no way that they'd win one right now, they know that. There's also very little chance that they'd win one in 2025, in part because of all the pantomime of the last year, but mainly because the economy is really screwed and there's no 'nice' way of fixing it. So even if by some miracle they sort their sh*t out and do things that are economically sound for the next two and a bit years, those things will be electorally unpopular.
So, I think there'll be a significant number of Tory grandees thinking that maybe their best bet is lose an election now, give Labour the economic poisoned chalice, and give themselves five years to sort their internal crap out. In five years time, if Labour haven't turned the economic situation around, the Tories are back in. Even if Labour have, it will have been off the back of some very unpopular things, which the Tories can play off in the electioneering, so, again, they'd stand a decent chance.
That’s my explanation anyway, what’s yours for this apparent weird anomaly?
I agree
I think there’ll be a significant number of Tory grandees thinking that maybe their best bet is lose an election now,
I don't think Sunak will give up the PM gig just yet. He won't do anything to anger the "market" gods, so is unlikely to be pressured into calling an election from the party. Unless he actually has an ego that could eclipse Johnsons there is no way he will call an early election. He may though have an ego big enough to think he can turn things around in a couple of years by doubling down on austerity orthodoxy, and bribing traditional tory seats that currently look lost, which has always been tory orthodoxy.
For the Tories to call an election now in the face of certain electoral defeat would be seen as cowardice of the highest order.
It would be the equivalent of when the railway operators 'hand the keys back', having rinsed the system for everything it was worth, passing on the bill to someone else.
So certainly a possibility then....
I think there’ll be a significant number of Tory grandees thinking that maybe their best bet is lose an election now, give Labour the economic poisoned chalice, and give themselves five years to sort their internal crap out. In five years time, if Labour haven’t turned the economic situation around, the Tories are back in.
Are you suggesting our new millionaire PM may only be in for another 40-odd days before bailing out and collecting his £115k a year? 😉
Even if Labour have, it will have been off the back of some very unpopular things
I don't get this. Why is it assumed that economic recovery involves "very unpopular things"?
Is it because when Tory governments are screwing ordinary working people they talk of "difficult decisions" in an attempt to suggest that there is no alternative and people assume that it must be true?
The UK economy was on its knees after World War 2, the country was skint, no one talked about "very unpopular things".
On the contrary, they talked about highly popular things such as creating free universal healthcare, a huge building programme for decent affordable housing, and a modern welfare state.**
Even though the country was skint.
Edit : ** And they achieved it.
I’ll concede that having a non white PM will project a more progressive image of the UK to an international audience for the first time in quite a few years but im not sure how much of a positive it is domestically.
Well his progressive policies include cutting bank taxes, overseeing the biggest fall in living standards since the 50's, voting against more funding for local councils, welfare state and low-carbon energy.
Couldn't care less about his skin colour or religion, he's not a positive choice for PM.
Why is assumed that economic recovery involves “very unpopular things”?
Well, I think (and I'm very happy to be told different by the way), that we have historically huge levels of debt to GDP, and any government of any colour needs to pay down some of it, which means increasing tax rates and/or cutting spending. If we don't pay down some of our existing debt, any more borrowing is going to become increasingly more expensive. Neither raising taxes or cutting spending are popular.
If this isn't the case, then, genuinely, if someone can explain it to me I'd be really interested.
Couldn’t care less about his skin colour or religion, he’s not a positive choice for PM.
Perfectly said!
we have historically huge levels of debt to GDP
Check what it was like in 1946 two years before the NHS was created.
Debt to GDP in 1946 is a complete irrelevance today.
It's the sort of drivel typical of ree-smug.
we have historically huge levels of debt to GDP
But Rishi is the man who can help us with the interest payments given his millions.
That's how it works I think, we are all in this together 😉
Debt to GDP in 1946 is a complete irrelevance today.
Not when the point, quote, "we have historically huge levels of debt to GDP" is being made.
Depends on what period 'historically' refers to.
Why not assume it was a turn of phrase instead of taking it literally?
No doubt you will comment further as you (appear to) have a pathological need to have the last word; see posts and threads passim.
Couldn’t care less about his skin colour or religion, he’s not a positive choice for PM.
i dont know, hes probably the best of teh bunch available ( well he was the ONLY one!) - as long there is a bit of stability and he doesnt rock the boat too much he might be OK.
I mean its going to be really super hard for ANYONE regardless of their party, bit like when May took over - its a poisoned chalice and no one really wants it.
basically like that angry Tory the other week - we just need someone not completely and utterly out of their depth. being a bit rubbish is fine and probably to be expected.
an election would be nice but its not gonna happen as its basically political suicide for the torys and why would they want that?
Depends on what period ‘historically’ refers to.
Why not assume it was a turn of phrase instead of taking it literally?
threads are difficult enough (for me at least) to follow as it is, being accurate is a good thing imho
I’m probably wrong but since abandoning the gold standard, doesn’t our (and most other countries’ (I think) rely on debt as part of the economy? Furthermore, I’d suggest that national debt is a narrative that suits the Conservative party, and justifies their own spending policies.
A quick Google suggests that high national debt does not particularly hinder a nations economy or describe quality of life for their respective citizens. For example, Japan has the 2nd highest national debt as a percentage of GDP (266%), USA 128%, France 98%, Belgium 98% & the UK 80%.
Contrast that with countries with low national debt as a percentage of GDP; Nigeria 17.5%, Libya 16.5%, Palestine 16.4%, Russia 12.1% & Afghanistan 7.2%.
One thing that strikes me about this is that it’s not how much is spent, but rather how it is spent. One lazy glance at the list found here:
https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/debt-to-gdp-ratio-by-country
Is that it strikes me that some of the countries with the lowest national debt to GDP also have war and turmoil in their recent past or have questionable human rights records where they literally spend nothing on their population. It also shows the countries where the gap between the haves and have nots is the widest.
we have historically huge levels of debt to GDP
So what?
That's a useless metric. Useless.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1584566102990131200?s=20&t=BchZJ1C50_lDxaL_rXpWDg
Did someone forget to charge his batteries?
’m probably wrong but since abandoning the gold standard, doesn’t our (and most other countries’ (I think) rely on debt as part of the economy? Furthermore, I’d suggest that national debt is a narrative that suits the Conservative party, and justifies their own spending policies.
You are 100% correct.
National debt is just the countries savings account. A positive spend into the economy - with matched bond issuance. The money to purchase bonds came from previous government spending.
It's all a charade designed to use against us with terms like debt/bonds. It's all under the control of the government/BoE if they choose the decisions to take control of the situation.
I feel Austerity this time will be the final nail in the coffin for the Tories. And is entirely the wrong thing to do.
Is that it strikes me that some of the countries with the lowest national debt to GDP also have war and turmoil in their recent past or have questionable human rights records where they literally spend nothing on their population. It also shows the countries where the gap between the haves and have nots is the widest
Absolutely - the government spends less then there is less £ sloshing around.
Financial establishment carries out the exact opposite of what is needed for society to flourish. It's designed currently to concentrate wealth. Let's not be suprised at the Tory pathway.
Did someone forget to charge his batteries?
Quality media training there - did anyone expect anything else?
Did someone forget to charge his batteries?
It does look like his brain is far too occupied with thinking "Oh ****, this is bad, very bad! I thought Boris was meant to win and take the flak! What the hell do I do now?!?"
So what?
I don't really know, as I said, I'm happy for someone to explain to me if/how that's not actually a big deal, as we're told that it is.
**EDIT** - sorry, I see we crossed posts on your later explanation.
frankconway Full Member
No doubt you will comment further as you (appear to) have a pathological need to have the last word; see posts and threads passim.
Posted 33 minutes ago
Oh thank you for the completely uncalled for personal insult, it's what every thread needs.
A positive spend into the economy – with matched bond issuance.
So (and again, these are genuine Qs), to take an extreme example, what's to stop a government just issuing an infinite amount of bonds, and being to pay for everything, and we all live at home on massive state incomes with free hoverboards for all?
I don’t really know, as I said, I’m happy for someone to explain to me if/how that’s not actually a big deal, as we’re told that it is.
**EDIT** – sorry, I see we crossed posts on your later explanation.
Yeah sorry don't mean to be snipey.
The real take is that government spending is technically not limited by spending in itself and can't run out of cash. The absolute metric is too much inflation (money with not enough resources to spend on.) But not the current type of inflation which is a whole bag of different.
There can't be more GDP unless there is some form of government spending driving the private money anyway. Private money can't simply just grow without government spending.
So someone somewhere in the midst of time decided debt/GDP was a useful metric when it's used mainly as a barrier to government spending. It is not an appropriate metric of spending. Inflation is.
Rishi Sunak's speaking style makes Liz Truss look relaxed and fluid.
FFS, so f--- what? I think, if we should have learned anything over the past few years, is that we should more interested in our politicians' competence, and less in their charisma.
**EDIT** - I make no judgment yet on his competence, BTW, I just don't give a shit what his speaking style is like, and neither should anyone else.
One thing that strikes me about this is that it’s not how much is spent, but rather how it is spent.
Yup, it always boils down to priorities. Gordon Brown's priorities he would claim were investment, Liz Truss would claim that her's were tax cuts for the wealthy.
You decide which is likely to lead to more growth.
So (and again, these are genuine Qs), to take an extreme example, what’s to stop a government just issuing an infinite amount of bonds, and being to pay for everything, and we all live at home on massive state incomes with free hoverboards for all?
Productive capacity.
You have to generate something in return for the money with your Labour and resources to grow the economy in a way that is beneficial to society - so you need a hospital? Then build it. The money is there.
That's where the politics gets in the way. It takes someone to step and say we are going to do this.
I will take a hover board though.
One thing that strikes me about this is that it’s not how much is spent, but rather how it is spent.
Absolutely - but you always see politicians claiming we don't have the money though. Most days on most media outlets.
It's a both a simple and complex lie / misappropriation. It needs taking apart and challenging constantly.
IHN, that's what I keep asking, if it was possible without consequence there would be another country out there laughing themselves silly. Whilst I get the countries finances don't equate to household finances I still can't see how we can borrow indefinitely without something going horribly wrong. I think Liz Truss may have just proved that with her increase spending / reduce taxes approach that then caused my mortgage payments to go up.
A positive spend into the economy – with matched bond issuance.
So borrowing to fund spending.
So borrowing to fund spending.
I think borrowing to fund investment is more accurate (although I guess the argument is then about what classes as an investment)
FFS, so f— what? I think, if we should have learned anything over the past few years, is that we should more interested in our politicians’ competence, and less in their charisma.
I agree with those sentiments but to be fair when I saw it live I felt as if he was talking deliberately slowly because he thought he was talking to either a small child or a complete idiot. I was a bit taken aback.
It is not a particularly good way for a prime minister to communicate his message to voters.
Still, he's a Tory so it suits me fine.
So borrowing to fund spending.
No no no! You don't need to borrow what you are the sole issuer of!
The spending takes place first and is not dependent on bond issuance.
They do this control liquidity/intrest rates. It's a choice that the government could choose not to do.
There's a plethora of great podcasts here covering most topics discussed here. Scroll down to find your topic!
#149 is an excellent breakdown of the recent budget.
Sunak:
But there is no doubt we face a profound economic challenge
Has he forgotten that he was Chancellor from 13 February 2020 – 5 July 2022 ???
He does have the education to understand and respect institutions like BofE, OBR etc - so we shouldn't get a repeat of last month's debacle. It's more of the same, though; low tax, low growth, low investment, low skills, low wages...
Where's the vision for the country and leadership of people?
How about some honesty on the choices we face / have made e.g. Brexit/Ukraine/Inflation
It won't be long before this situation re-appears.
Has he forgotten that he was Chancellor from 13 February 2020 – 5 July 2022 ???
And pretty much immediately inherited a global pandemic, closely followed by a war in Europe that's sent energy prices up the hoo-hah, so it would be slightly unfair to blame him for the current situation. One of the reasons he quit was because he couldn't get 'Let the good times roll' Johnson to grasp, or at least be honest with the public about, the financial shitstorm that was coming.
I'd like to add it's funny he didn't get in last month (and we could have avoided that nasty blackspot). My hunch; this was due to Tory members being prejudiced about backing a 'darkie'. LMAO
Has he forgotten that he was Chancellor from 13 February 2020 – 5 July 2022 ???
Collective amnesia seems to be a common trait.
The last muppet completely forgot that she’d been in the cabinet for the previous ten years
In all honesty, though I utterly despise the Tory party, I’m relieved that someone is finally in charge who isn’t absolutely barking mad
It’s a sign of how far we’ve sunk as a country when this is now the benchmark
It does look like his brain is far too occupied with thinking “Oh ****, this is bad, very bad! I thought Boris was meant to win and take the flak! What the hell do I do now?!?”
An expression perfected over the years that started with Johnson and Gove looking very worried in July 2016 when Leave won and they had to work out what the actual **** that meant.
Repeated many times over the years when asked minor questions like "what does Brexit mean?"
Symbolic of the absolute cluelessness of these charlatans.
Sunak should be fine but whether his technical ability will keep Tories in power in the next GE will be tested very soon. If he can pull this off then Tories will have hope.
The first non-white PM in Uk history is certainly a thing to be lauded but a Tory millionaire non white! Do the two cancel each other out?
Ah there’s only one colour that the tory party worry about - the colour of money.
I'm just hoping for small wins like the removal of Mogg and Coffey and their pet projects and personal biases.
He will create Austerity 2.0 and tell you it isn't.
He will cut services by freezing budgets and pay.
He will introduce lots of stealth tax and not mention it.
He will not cut tax but will freeze allowances
He will quietly remove the contents of your wallet and tell you its all for your benefit.