[Closed] Right or Privilege to live in the UK?

It's a nice theory.

also, anyone thought about if bringing back National Service would be a good for young people?

might be good for some young people. Less good for the armed forces that had to look after people that didn't want to be there.

damn bad luck i'd say!

I didn't choose to be born here.

I choose to live here.

My allegiance is not to the state but to the people, the land and their shared heritage.

You won't find someone who loves these island more.

You won't find me going overseas to kill muslim farmers either.

Which people? Are you advocating throwing UK citizens out of the county? Where to?

There should be an equivalent of godwins law for "bringing back National Service"

As said before, the military doesn't want people who don't want to be there, they have a difficult job to do for us already.

Besides, we shouldn't burden them our societies problems because we don't want the responsibility ourselves.

might be good for some young people. Less good for the armed forces that had to look after people that didn't want to be there.

What happened in the old days when people didn't want to be there?

Right or Privilege to live in the UK?

Sort of sounds like you want to start deporting criminals back to Australia or whatever again.

We could put all the scum in the army as cannon fodder .Then our decent highly trained soldiers wont get killed needlessly

I used to think National service was a good idea, but do we really want to take the dissafected youth and teach them to kill... maybe fire brigade or something.

If you can find the money to put them through the army or the fire service, find the money to give them jobs. Apparently it is that easy.

[i]bringing back National Service would be a good for young people?[/i]

really? why? what would a spell in the Army teach me exactly?

I think you would make a lovely soldier emsz

[i]really? why? what would a spell in the Army teach me exactly?[/i]

to be grateful for being so privileged.

emsz, it'd teach you to handle a firearm and about explosives, just like a recent Norweigan madman ... national service, genius!

Neutering scumbags, now there's a highly appealing idea ... flame me all you like but I have a point.

Privileged? really? wow. How about a peacefully version, planting flowers, knitting for old biddies, that sort of thing?

Thanks TJ, I'm not certain green is my colour though. 😀

Klunk - Member

really? why? what would a spell in the Army teach me exactly?

to be grateful for being so privileged.

The children of the privileged usually don't have to bother with such schemes.

Wouldn't National Service teach them self respect, discipline, respect for others...etc.?

MSP, my dad works in a warehouse, my mum is a hairdresser, does that make me the child of privilege then?

Mind you, GF went to private school, and has her dad's credit card, she might need a spell in the army, LOL

Tyger I did gymnastics from 6 to about 16, that taught me all about discipline, and hard work, thanks.

emsz - not talking about being privileged

tyger, you don't live in a garrison town do you.. 😉

Okay great! 🙂

[i]Privileged? really? wow. How about a peacefully version, planting flowers, knitting for old biddies, that sort of thing?[/i]

your a subject so you'll do what your ****ing well told to do and without the back chat !

Emsz - are you sure?
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you're just trying to scare him now

i can see some good in enforced community service, but i suspect that those who would accept it aren't the ones you are trying to integrate into the community.

Nice hat!!

I don't see why National Service would have to be restricted to the military...

I'm not certain green is my colour though.

What about pink camo, Emsz?

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[i]Which people? Are you advocating throwing UK citizens out of the county? Where to?[/i]
Can I be sent to Vancouver please?

[i]I used to think National service was a good idea, but do we really want to take the dissafected youth and teach them to kill... maybe fire brigade or something. [/i]

I know, send em down the.. er.. mines 😕

I might be wrong but I'm guessing that most of you haven't served in the forces - from personal experience it teaches you life skills, gives you confidence in yourself and creates a sense or worth - these are what I'm perceiving as missing from so many young people these days. Nation Service is not just about training people to kill and use firearms - other countries have it and it helps youngsters to grow up and respect themselves and others.

Don't wanna be controversial here but **** off squaddie.

neninja - Member

There are a few soldiers on another forum I go on. They are itching to get brought in for a good ruck

Yeah national service would really calm them down.

Don't wanna be controversial here but **** off squaddie.

Have I missed something? How about some respect?

I have actually done National Service (in the army). As much as I got out of it, I don't think it is a good idea. The money would be better spent elsewhere.

druidh - Member
I don't see why National Service would have to be restricted to the military...

This.

We could have a squadron of youngsters working in the forests and hills making better mountain biking trails.

But really... it's a right to live here.

Living in this country is a privilege. Its not perfect, but try living in Rwanda or Vietnam or Brazil if you thing we have a bad country with severe inequality.

Yeah and we could give them a proper wage and call it a job, so who is prepared to pay for job creation through taxation?

(I am by the way)

I used to think National service was a good idea, but do we really want to take the dissafected youth and teach them to kill... maybe fire brigade or something.

F'cough

Why? I've enough problems with those who want to be in FS!

it teaches you life skills, gives you confidence in yourself and creates a sense or worth

Apparently, despite almost every single person under the age of 18 currently rioting and looting, there are a small minority of parents who have somehow managed to raise young people who have life skills and confidence in themselves with a sense of worth. I know it's only a few but it's possible!

</sarcasm>

Sorry but all this call for National service, it's a few hundred youths per city, there is an element of needing to get a grip. Believe it or not, most young people still turn out alright these days.

CHB - Member

Living in this country is a privilege.

Actually its a right 🙄

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really? why? what would a spell in the Army teach me exactly?

Apart from the old dicipline thing. You'll learn that the world isn't all about you, and everything you do in life has consequences - good or bad.
But also you could become
A HGV driver, plumber, electrician, gas fitter, mechanic looking after everything from lawn mowers to jump jets, constuction engineer, commercial diver, nurse, chef, welder, photographer, press worker...just about anything with top quality training. And for those with no hope they'll even learn you up good in IT.

It's also very good for self confidence

Well perhaps I'm getting a little bit bored of Captain Mannering et al thinking national service is a good thing.

CHB - and there's not massive inequality here?

Well if discipline is doing what your told to by the posh kid who went to sandhurst, I can see why some would think that's important with the current Government.

I'd say that the army might also be a good way to homogenise and crush independent thought...

On the flip side of the 'respect' argument, you get countless suicides, self-harm (we had two blokes in our regiment shoot each other in the knee to get out of national service, plenty of broken limbs 'I fell down the stairs'), the alcohol abuse, kids sent to the brig for the crime of being lovesick etc. etc.

Spend the money on getting kids educated and in jobs. No need to institutionalise them.

Not that I'm for it though, I think it's career you really need to be in by choice.

You don't get told what to do by Toffs that's a myth, you'll hardly meet any. You get told what to do by lower ranks.

Oldgit - you can learn most of those trades at college you don't need to dress up in some bullshit uniform and pledge allegiance to the the head of the UK branch of the Germanic family known as Saxe Coburg Gotha.

not trying to be awkward of nuffink but i think its possible to learn respect, discipline and "that the world isn't all about you, and everything you do in life has consequences - good or bad." without joining the army. in fact... i learnt all that without ever having held a weapon or been in a fight 🙂

if kids need the army to teach them those things mentioned above then maybe the parents didnt do their job properly?

EDIT - i lied.. i have held weapons, but only cos i've confiscated them from patients, never held one with the intent of training to use, or planning to use in defence or anger.

I actually quite fancy the idea of killing someone... how old is too old to get into the army?

To be born here, A Privilege ? Maybe. A huge piece of good fortune we should be thankful for? Definately.

On the flip side of the 'respect' argument, you get countless suicides, self-harm (we had two blokes in our regiment shoot each other in the knee to get out of national service, plenty of broken limbs 'I fell down the stairs'), the alcohol abuse, kids sent to the brig for the crime of being lovesick etc. etc

This can't be denied. I do however find it very strange these people ever enter. You'll actually get people ready to join, then don't when they find out they'll need a haircut and will have to remove their facial peircings. Others will literally crack up spending a night out in the woods without their gadgets and hair products.

The independent thought thing is also a myth, or is now. Yes you follow orders, but sometimes it takes the thoughts and actions of one man to save the lives of many. It's one of the very first things you're taught to use.

Edit; You will often feel totally **** and possibly the the most useless person on the planet when starting your basic training. Even being prepared for it doesn't help much. But it has always been said that this is part of the training, being tested (it can feel like abuse)when you could just leave. Self control is easy for some. others will flyu off the handle if just yelled at, best this is found out before you get a weapon.

I'm talking about national service. You have no choice. Join or go to jail.

Rather than military service, what is the view of an overseas aid corps? 6 months in africa building water purification and sewage plants might give the disaffected yute a new perspective on living in the UK. Ironically, this sort of work is only carried right now out by private schoolkids who's parents can afford 5k for a gap year...

Many countries that have national service offer a civil service alternative to the military

TJ being born in northern europe or even lage areas of the USA immediately puts you in the world top rankings of opportunity. Once you are British you have rights, however we are VERY priviliged to have those rights.
Ratswithwings: of course there is inequality here. Having the right parents or even a good school can and will make a massives difference to your life chances, but those chances are there for everyone to a fair degree and it is perfectly possible to go prom council estate to high school teacher for any kid who applies themselves. Trouble is kids need direction and if they dont get it from the parents then there are limits to what a school can do.

To be fair, most of the kids in Tottenham probably have more consumer goods than most of us now, so I'm not sure we can still class them as underprivileged now 😀

philconsequence, it may be possible to learn respect etc, but in our present climate of gang culture it is increasingly unlikely. I left school twenty years ago, during my time there no teacher was ever beaten up, but by all accounts now it is a common occurrence. Let them try to get away with that in the army! I'm not saying national service is the way forward, but there is no respect or sense of accountablility.

I left school twenty years ago, during my time there no teacher was ever beaten up, but by all accounts now it is a common occurrence

Only if you read the Daily mail

but in our present climate of gang culture

Which is actually limited to very small pockets of society.

bagstard - do you realise most crime is much lower now than it was then?

Maybe I am daily wailing a bit, but I see changes with my own eyes. My gym has recently slashed it's prices in half, it was already cheap. The younger guys coming in now (most of them anyway)just don't have any manners, constantly flout most of the rules and are a general pain in the neck. The idea of training hard and eating well to get a good physique doesn't interest most of them, it is steroids from day one.

The younger guys coming in now (most of them anyway)just don't have any manners, constantly flout most of the rules and are a general pain in the neck.

Haha, thats called getting older, FFS thats been happening since time in memoriam.

I must have been old from a young age then, i'm always polite. 🙂

i gets what you means bagstad 🙂 and kudos for admitting an element of daily wailing 😆

I think being the completely non-fighty person i am and was raised to be, i'm reluctant to entertain the thought that forcing kids into a military type system will be a positive. I can see how it would work for some kids, but considering that a lot of parents are very quick to blame schools, teachers, government and so on for the failings of their children, knowing that their kids are meant to be learning how to be a well rounded, respectful and constructive citizen from the army is just another way of allowing parents to shun their responsibilities.

There have always been rough kids, always will be, but they seem to be fearless these days. Not afraid of teachers, not afraid of the law. Unfortunately I don't know what the solution is.

National service was only in force for 13 years. It's an aberration in the history of Britain and only a very small perecentage of the current population went through it.
I'm also fed up of these Captain Mainwairing types and people holding up the armed forces to be some exemplary system full of outstanding people. They're just ordinary people doing a job like anyone else.

Agree with you Bagstard, there have always been rough kids and gangs, Teddy boys, mods and rockers, skinheads etc...there are no solutions, its just the way things are....

True, but I do think it is getting worse. Pretty sure the Krays would not have lasted long in todays London.

There have always been rough kids, always will be, but they seem to be fearless these days. Not afraid of teachers, not afraid of the law. Unfortunately I don't know what the solution is.

mods and rockers fought running battles on the beeches in the 60's, coffee shop gangs fought in the streets in the 50's(bike chains were a favourite weapon). Youth gangs terrorised the streets of Manchester at the turn of the 19th/20th century. Your harking back to a false utopia that has never existed in anything but fiction and the minds of politicians trying to deceive you.

When you got together with your mates as a teenager, you probably didn't realise how noisy you were, that a group of teenagers can be worrying to others. Unfortunately it is your lack of realisation that things are in reality much the same as they always were that is now widening the divide between adults and youths.

Organised crime is a bit different to a gang of teenagers giving it large..

Wouldn't National Service teach them self respect, discipline, respect for others...etc.?

Yes.

All those good things that their PARENTS are supposed to be teaching them.

Many of the problems with the current genereation are the fault of the previous.

On the other hand, some people are just idiots.

Most of the rioters are too stupid not to pi$$ on their own doorstep.

Morons.

Problem: "Disenfranchised Youth"

Response: Burn stuff & nick things

Result: "Disenfranchised Youth" (still), but now the whole country knows your a d1ck.

Congratulations. Really well done.

Actually I think the problem of the disenfranchised youth will be addressed more after this week that it was being before.

Apparently they burnt down cash converter in Salford last night, bit of an own goal... 😀

not readt the thread but my personal view is there is some merit in removing folk from their environment an dpeer sin order to show them the big picture
I would often take teenagers to the lakes [ only 50 miles away[ who had never seen countryside or been for a walk, abseiled etc. They was a great change in many as a result of this and activities.
Having worked with young people many poor people suffer from poverty of aspiration and can see nothing beyond their own little estate. To widen their horizons would do some good IMHO
I dont think the army is the way to do this.
Social projects? repair dry stone walls, looking after old folk,litter picking, repairing schools? no real idea what tbh.
In principle I dont think it is that bad an idea but I would not be comfortable compelling folk to do this tbh.

Hang on, aren't ex servicemen diporportionately reprisented in prisons and the homeless?

aren't ex servicemen diporportionately reprisented in prisons and the homeless

If that's true... what better way to resolve the statistical anomaly than National Service?