So it will legally need to be confirmed if/when person loses capacity ... What's so difficult to understand about that?
You should let the Government know as they left that legal requirement out of all the relevant codes of practice and the publications about LPAs
When I dealt with my father's matters the only assessment of mental capacity undertaken by a third party was by the hospital he was in and this wasn't shared with anyone outside the hospital and only related to health and welfare decisions.That assessment was also to establish that the lack of mental capacity was long term, previously, in times of short term emergency and clear lack of mental capacity the NHS accepted my role of LPA without any further assessments.
Banking, councils, sale of home no legal confirmation of capacity was sought just the LPA and my ID. The banks don't make a decision therefore they don't assess mental capacity, if it is in the law that they have to it'd be great to see the bit of legislation.
Also a financial LPA also doesn't need a loss of mental capacity to be used, one can select to allow a LPA to make decisions as soon as the LPA is registered if one chooses to
So it will legally need to be confirmed if/when person loses capacity ... What's so difficult to understand about that?
You should let the Government know as they left that legal requirement out of all the relevant codes of practice and the publications about LPAs
When I dealt with my father's matters the only assessment of mental capacity undertaken by a third party was by the hospital he was in and this wasn't shared with anyone outside the hospital and only related to health and welfare decisions.That assessment was also to establish that the lack of mental capacity was long term, previously, in times of short term emergency and clear lack of mental capacity the NHS accepted my role of LPA without any further assessments.
Banking, councils, sale of home no legal confirmation of capacity was sought just the LPA and my ID. The banks don't make a decision therefore they don't assess mental capacity, if it is in the law that they have to it'd be great to see the bit of legislation.
Also a financial LPA also doesn't need a loss of mental capacity to be used, one can select to allow a LPA to make decisions as soon as the LPA is registered if one chooses to
It looks like you are missing the starting point made in this thread - the bit where someone has already clarified that when making LPAs the person states if they want appointed person to act in that role immediately or only when they lack capacity to do so ... its right there. How much clearer does it need to be?
Ok. So your now talking about health decisions - when the topic here is property and financial decisions. So once again you evidence you have not read the thread .. again!
And the rest just further demonstrates you simply haven`t read whats already been written - yes, some banks etc don`t ask for evidence of person lacking capacity .. but they should!
* ps. How about reading whats already been written eh
I would second that you PROBABLY (not knowing ALL the information here) can't use your LPA powers in this situation.
But, if i were you, i'd very clearly share my concerns with estate agents/lawyers/conveyencers, and tell THEM this most certainly is a scam.
They are much more goverened by being scam aware, and will likely pull the plug on teh situation to protect THEIR integrity. i.e let them be the bad guy here..
DrP
You should let the Government know. ..
Here's their own webpage.
https://www.lastingpowerofattorney.service.gov.uk/guide#topic-when-an-lpa-can-be-used
Part way down, "When an LPA can be used"
the donor can decide whether it can be used:
- as soon as it’s registered
- only when they have lost mental capacity
and the link to mental capacity says
In the preferences and instructions section of the LPA, the donor can say how their mental capacity should be assessed. However, if the donor trusts their attorneys to assess their mental capacity, they do not need to add instructions.
Example instructions:
My attorneys shall only act under this power if they have obtained a written medical opinion stating that I am no longer mentally capable of managing and administering my property and financial affairs.
or:
This lasting power of attorney only applies if my GP or another doctor confirms in writing that I do not have capacity to make specific decisions about my medical treatment.
so does depend on the actual LPA and seems to err to allowing the attorney if it's not made explicit. All the same I'd consider caution to be proper, ie get a proper opinion. Particularly in this case, where the person isn't particularly showing signs of lack of capacity and is adamant they want to do this transfer, I'd be worried if a bank or whoever would just then defer to the attorney. Notwithstanding of course still being fully required to prevent someone from being defrauded.
the most confusing part of taking over my mothers affairs was the sort of advice above, which clearly comes from people with no actual experience. I spent some weeks going around in circles trying to find out how to “invoke” the PoA and how to get an assessment. That’s not how it works.
I rest my case .. anyone who thinks a PoA is same as an LPA knows very very little. They may seem the same - but even a quick Google lets you know they aren't.
Ok, to clarify (and again, Google is your friend here too). A person must have capacity to appoint an LPA - so by default they are considered to have capacity in the areas they have identified the donee ... So it will legally need to be confirmed if/when person loses capacity ... What's so difficult to understand about that?
As for the "my bank never asked for proof they lacked capacity .." ... They should have; that's the law.
have you used an LPoA or not? Whatever google might says, and whatever you think the law is, I’m telling you that of the maybe 20 financial institutions I had to deal with to sort out my mums affairs (a load of current accounts, countless tiny cash isas) and all of the utilities, and the solicitor when I sold her house to pay for her care NOT A SINGLE ONE OF THEM asked for a medical assessment.
I’m fully in agreement that this seems to have a lot of potential to be abused and it made me somewhat uncomfortable but that was the reality 5 or so years ago.
Rather than descend further into Bicker Central, I'd suggest the OP heads to Reddit r/Scams or r/ScamsUK and has a look at romance scams in there.
There are plenty to look at - but it's probably worth asking the victim to explain what help they need to assess how far into it they are. If they're asking to sell some UK land to send the proceeds overseas I think it's likely to be quite some depth already.
Pig butchering is the phrase that often seems linked.
You could try asking for help on there - what should you try. There's also a r/isthisAI bit where you can submit this person's pics and vids and get help.
Ultimately this person is an adult and can make their own decisions. You'll need to get advice and help quickly.
I've got medical and financial LPAs. When one was needed for my Father's medical issues the medical team didn't ask to see the LPA. On the financial one it looks to me me that I can invoke it as and when I feel necessary.
In the OP's case I'd contact the bank and ask about putting a transaction cap and monthly cap on the account beyond which my signature was required. The banks have a duty of care to their customers and IMO transfering a large amount of money to a foreign account when someone with an LPA had tried to prevent it would be breaking that obligation.
Sadly I think confrontation with the victim is needed.
Am I the only one disappointed that this thread wasn't about someone falling for their sibling or cousin?
In all seriousness - it does sound like they need an urgent intervention before their money is gone & they are left high & dry.
I've got medical and financial LPAs. When one was needed for my Father's medical issues the medical team didn't ask to see the LPA. On the financial one it looks to me me that I can invoke it as and when I feel necessary.
Again, in theory we've got health and welfare LPoA as well but I've never tracked down a physical copy (solicitor who did it retired, transferred work to another solicitor, they went bust, solicitors 'archive' (solicitors regulation authority) where documents are then stored didn't produce it.
She's been in a care home for some years and spent time in hospital and we've never actually had to produce it.
but I've never tracked down a physical copy (solicitor who did it retired, transferred work to another solicitor, they went bust, solicitors 'archive' (solicitors regulation authority) where documents are then stored didn't produce it.
If its been registered - the OPG will have a copy ...
Many years ago I was in the office when word started filtering in about an incident at the hotel across the road from the office. Rumours filtered over about 2 women being killed. More tragedy was uncovered when it transpired the 2 women were friends of someone in my team.
At the time it appeared to be a tragic and mysterious event.
I'd completely forgotten about it until the actual truth came out, and it was utterly horrific.
Do not sit idly by and let anyone fall victim to these scams
Sadly I think confrontation with the victim is needed.
I think the OP is asking for advice on how to confront the issue without being confrontational. I'm not sure he actually knows the planned sale of land is to send payment to the new "friend", so step 1 is probably to show some real interest in helping, and if any of my relatives had made a great new friend I'd expect to be introduced etc. You are in a far better place to ask helpful questions if you seem to be onside and you actually have first hand experience of the scammer.
This whole thing has gone down like a turd in a wedding punch bowl.
I tried again with the bank and they refused point blank to do anything, but what they did do was call my mum to tell her that I'd attempted to place a fraud marker on the account.
So she now sees it as a gross betrayal of trust and called me just long enough to tell me never to speak to her again. FFS.
Barclays is by far the worst institution I've ever had the misfortune to deal with. It was just a loop of "we can only put protection from scammers on the account if your mother calls us and asks us to do it". Because, of course, if someone is being scammed in this way the first thing they do is tell the bank...
I'd look at options to minimize damage or loss. IF that is possible.
If not damage to mum, damage to your own holdings. Anything connected, anything that relies on home,savings etc. Maybe even down to information that she has in relation to your banking, maybe from old transfers or bills you cover.
Mayeb also look into who exactly this other person is. If its possible and even if it costs money, possible look to have interweb investigator search the records for anything and everything.
If previous evidence of scammy behaviour is flagged up, you can at least present that evidence in a 'Wake Up' proof of the pudding to her.
do you have other family members or trusted friends to stage an intervention? I would also go back to the bank.
Now the inevitable confrontation has happened thanks to the lovely people at Barclays you need a trace of all this. If you have a long paper trail of attempting to prevent fraud and your mother gets defrauded with the complicity of the bank you'll have a better chance of getting the money back. Have a look at this:
The bank has a duty of care and you have a LPA so you do too.
Email Barclays with your understanding of the situation and their lack of action, bar the phonecall, ask them to confirm that it is a true representation of the current situation and if they do not reply you assume that they agree with your understanding. Give them 2 weeks to have replied by.
Keep trying with your mum. It's painful and I'm sorry it's a horrible situation but explain it's because you love her and don't want anything bad to happen.
Of course if I were a scammer I'd say it's because you are after her money and she needs to watch you carefully and she should really only trust me.
The bank has a duty of care and you have a LPA so you do too.
Does it? The implications of the below ruling seem to be that a bank doesn't have any duty of care if clearly instructed by the account holder
The Bank’s duty of care
A bank owes a general duty to exercise reasonable care and skill when executing orders to transfer funds, or in providing other services. However, this general duty applies only insofar as the bank has latitude to decide how the relevant services are executed. The obligation to carry out payment instructions in accordance with a customer’s expressed wishes leaves little discretion. In such a case, the duty to exercise care and skill is confined to actions relating to “interpreting, ascertaining and acting in accordance with the instructions of the customer”.
Duty to comply with instructions
Banks are under a strict contractual obligation to process transactions in compliance with their customers’ lawful wishes. Where a customer has validly authorised a payment, those instructions must be acted upon promptly. It is not for a bank to concern itself with the wisdom or risks of a customer’s payment decisions, provided it receives clear and lawful instructions, either from the customer personally or from an agent of the customer acting with apparent authority. Failing to comply with those instructions would constitute a breach of duty on the part of the bank.
In the world of financial transactions and banking, trust is paramount.
Customers rightly rely on banks to protect their funds and assets, and banks, in turn, have a duty of care towards their customers.
This includes a duty is known as the “Quincecare duty,” a legal principle that places a significant responsibility on banks to detect and prevent fraudulent activities on their customers’ accounts.
This derives from the 1992 case of Barclays Bank plc v. Quincecare Ltd and arises from the special relationship between banks and their customers. Customers trust banks to act as their agents and exercise reasonable skill and care in handling their accounts. While the duty was initially applied in the context of corporate customers, its principles have been extended to cover individual customers as well.
The reason for the mention of the Quincecare duty is that it had been thought that it applied to cases where a bank has received instructions to make a payment from a customer’s account. If there are reasonable grounds for the bank to suspect that the payment is fraudulent, the bank must take reasonable steps to investigate the transaction further.
However in the case of Philipp v Barclays Bank UK PLC in June this year, the UK Supreme Court has concluded that the bank here did not owe its customer a duty not to carry out a payment instruction if the bank has reasonable grounds for believing the customer is being defrauded. In the case, which involved authorised push payment fraud (which occurs where fraudsters deceive a customer into authorising a payment from the customer’s account to one controlled by the fraudster), the Court concluded that this duty did not apply here as the customer had unequivocally authorised the bank to make the payment and the bank therefore had a duty to execute the transaction.
Which comes to the heart of this issue, it's up to the account holder if they want to pay this romancer and not up to the LPA holder to stop them* unless the person is clearly unable to understand the decision they are making.
*using the LPA I mean. Of course they should try to convince them in the same way a non-LPA holder would, with logic and reason.
And without restarting the argument, and accepting that this DOES seem to be the way guidance is written, I'm still very surprised that a bank would defer to the LPA holder and prevent the account holder from making a payment they clearly have said they want to make, on the basis only of the LPA holder saying they aren't aware of what they're doing. That seems more open to abuse than a convoluted fraud scam!
Now the inevitable confrontation has happened thanks to the lovely people at Barclays you need a trace of all this.
This is sage advice. It sounds like this situation will get worse before it gets better. A detailed, accurate and comprehensive chronology of actions will be a huge asset in the future.
Wishing you the best of luck, it really is a rough situation.
Also, going back to your original post, you said this:
I've been contacted independently by four close friends who've raised concerns, but I'm at a bit of a loss about next steps. I think a conversation along the lines of "this is a scam" will not go down well. Short of all of us gathering together to say the same thing in unison, I feel at a complete loss.
Sounds like it is time for the five of you to have this chat.
You mentioned something about liquidating land to get the money. Has this happened yet? If not, the lawyers involved in the land transaction would be extremely interested to know there's potential fraud involved. It's what my mrs does for a living, and the checks they need to go through to ensure nothing dodgy is happening are serious. Might be worth a conversation with them to put it on their radar and potentially stop any sale of the land.
Get everyone to speak to your mother
Speak to police,face to face if possible, report it as a crime, coercive control, that is in progress. It may, ultimately, fall short of the threshold for coercive control prosecution but romance fraud is accepted by the police as a form of coercive control.
It doesn't seem the relationship with your mother can get worse so you might as well go nuclearish
You mentioned something about liquidating land to get the money. Has this happened yet? If not, the lawyers involved in the land transaction would be extremely interested to know there's potential fraud involved. It's what my mrs does for a living, and the checks they need to go through to ensure nothing dodgy is happening are serious. Might be worth a conversation with them to put it on their radar and potentially stop any sale of the land.
An interesting observation. I don't know who they are, but my mum said that the conveyancers she used to buy the land originally were "too expensive", and found an alternative. I wonder now if the original ones had suspicions and wouldn't act.
I don't think there is any reason to think the land sale itself is fraudulent. It's not their business what she might choose to do with the money subsequently.
(It's not entirely beyond the bounds of possibility that the scammer is trying to get her to transfer the land ownership in some fraudulent way, but that doesn't seem to be implied in the OP's messages. Rather, it sounds like a legitimate sale with the intention that the proceeds are then given to the scammer.)
but romance fraud is accepted by the police as a form of coercive control.
If we want to be unbiased, police could just as easily see it as family coercion. What they, and the bank, need is evidence that the mum is unable to make informed decision around the concern as the OP is seemingly convinced.
Are there any other red flags of cognitive concerns? has she already got a diagnosis which could add weight? dementia/TIA/CSVD/any other ABI??
If so, speak to your local social services about raising a safeguarding concern. That would action a bit of a MDT and clarify capacity etc.
I remember reading about a romance fraud where the victim was extremely intelligent and not the slightest bit incapacitated. Some elderly academic with a strong career record, thinking that some young nubile foreigner had fallen for him. He realised himself (after the event) how completely absurd the scenario was and how idiotic he'd been.
(disclaimer: vague memory that may be wrong)
I remember reading about a romance fraud where the victim was extremely intelligent and not the slightest bit incapacitated. Some elderly academic with a strong career record, thinking that some young nubile foreigner had fallen for him. He realised himself (after the event) how completely absurd the scenario was and how idiotic he'd been.
(disclaimer: vague memory that may be wrong)
I think I'm reading a book that mentions that case right now. The Intelligence Trap by David Robson.
Paul Frampton was the name of the physicist in question. And it wasn't a 'simple' romance fraud. They managed to get him to transport 2 kg of cocaine from Bolivia to Argentina without realising it.
This whole thing has gone down like a turd in a wedding punch bowl.
I tried again with the bank and they refused point blank to do anything, but what they did do was call my mum to tell her that I'd attempted to place a fraud marker on the account.
So she now sees it as a gross betrayal of trust and called me just long enough to tell me never to speak to her again. FFS.
That sounds pretty terrible. 😥
It was always one of my Mum's big fears about my grandfather (her dad) that he'd fall victim to something like this - not online, that was not really a thing back then but doorstep scams, fake builders etc was a big concern because he would have done exactly what your Mum has done - "I know what I'm doing, stop interfering, it's all fine, I don't need babysitting..."
From what I can see, the one way out of this now in terms of your relationship is for it all to go through, for her to get scammed, lose the money and then for you to be able to say something more sympathetic than "I told you so" but with the same sort of message. I get that it's a really shit way out though and of course that'll affect everyone, especially if your Mum has lost tens / hundreds of thousands of pounds.
Is there anyway you can get the close friends that you mentioned onside to reiterate the message and the concern?
From what I can see, the one way out of this now in terms of your relationship is for it all to go through, for her to get scammed, lose the money and then for you to be able to say something more sympathetic than "I told you so" but with the same sort of message. I get that it's a really shit way out though and of course that'll affect everyone, especially if your Mum has lost tens / hundreds of thousands of pounds.
One thing to be aware of though is that scammers don't tend to just get a lump sum and disappear. They can easily keep scams going for years and thanks to the sunk cost fallacy, people actually become more likely to continue to be fooled the more money they have already lost.
Sorry to be so negative, but if the land sale goes through it could only be the beginning.
If we want to be unbiased, police could just as easily see it as family coercion. What they, and the bank, need is evidence that the mum is unable to make informed decision around the concern as the OP is seemingly convinced.
No what they would need to do is go and speak to the potential victim; mother and establish if they believe an offence has been committed by, if possible examining communications and some form of vulnerable person's ABE, speak to the OP and gather evidence of coercive control / fraud. If they establish a crime it may allow the use of POCA to prevent movement of monies. Obviously the mother may refrain from assisting the police but that doesn't necessarily indicate a sufficient lack of mental capacity to invoke a LPA.
Have you actually spoken to her yet?
No what they would need to do is go and speak to the potential victim; mother and establish if they believe an offence has been committed by, if possible examining communications and some form of vulnerable person's ABE, speak to the OP and gather evidence of coercive control / fraud. If they establish a crime it may allow the use of POCA to prevent movement of monies. Obviously the mother may refrain from assisting the police but that doesn't necessarily indicate a sufficient lack of mental capacity to invoke a LPA.
Once again wishful thinking rather than realistic and purposeful next steps which miss the required starting point .. does mum have capacity to make her own decisions (unwise or not). The police won't be in a position to assess capacity outside of raising it if someone is very unwell .. best case scenario is a PPN to social services.
But I have suggested a short cut to that already.
the most confusing part of taking over my mothers affairs was the sort of advice above, which clearly comes from people with no actual experience. I spent some weeks going around in circles trying to find out how to “invoke” the PoA
Ditto. Having just gone through both LPAs for finance and health. And, on the point of invoking it, we found that one of them was a joint one with their partner, who'd passed away, and the LPA needed either re-doing with the OPG or re-registering correctly. Fortunately my sister is a fiend at sorting out stuff and got on it quickly. But it was a challenge at a tricky time.
Back to the OP - clearly this 'bad actor' person is contacting her somehow. That may be a pressure point. When we needed to take over for the person above, we found that she'd made several purchases from weird companies - nothing massive but included stuff like slimming pills for £500 on subscription. She was also replying to spam emails.
We took her phone off her, replaced it with a new phone and ipad with new apple ID and phone number, and controlled who got the new number. This was with her consent, but I would say it could be possible to intercept comms in other cases depending on the relationship.
I posted above about using an 'is this AI' forum to point out that it was. Social media may be a way of the 5 of you protecting her by demonstrating the issue with the account.
Another thought is to suggest jumping on a plane to meet this person.
I think that's been suggested a few times and the "victim" seems to have spoken to the op expressing her displeasure
... and? Be displeased.
Beased on what little we know of the situation from what's presented here, this entire thread has been two pages of surely unnecessary legal pin-dancing because the OP and their friends/family daren't just go talk to someone they're caring for due to fear of it not being "well received." So instead he's gone behind her back and now it's exploded making the situation far worse.
Short of going round to her house with a Nokia 3310 and leaving with an Ethernet cable, the only way this is going to be resolved is to get her to realise that she's having her drawers pulled down. If she isn't on board and is of sufficiently sound mind to put up a fight then this is only going to end one way, with the family member estranged and the inheritance transferred to Nigeria. This decision has to come from her.
It's a shit situation to be in and I feel for you.
this entire thread has been two pages of surely unnecessary legal pin-dancing
...and multiple uninformed/incorrect explanations of what powers an LPA gives is and how/when it can be used.
a joint one with their partner
Joint LPAs are a menace and should be avoided at all cost.
To be fair, the gov webpages do make this point pretty clearly.
Yes, but I'm not convinced the same warnings were around when it was created in (god knows how many) years ago. It's a paper one.
To explain to anyone who may wish to know, it was an LPA taken out for two people, and it was joint for me and my sister to act. When one person died, we didn't realise that the LPA needed to be changed into just one name or it couldn't be used. No-one tells you this stuff when the LPA is old.
But also, having a joint LPA for us two is a pain as we have to act jointly on things. What we should have is a joint and several LPA which allows either of us to act on each others behalf. If you trust eachother that's easy, but I can imagine it gets shit quick if not. We've also found that some banks can't support joint LPA, so they acknowledge that the LPA is in force and then say "but we can't do anything".
If you trust eachother that's easy, but I can imagine it gets shit quick if not.
Well it's for the donor to trust the attorney(s), and if they don't, they shouldn't have made them an attorney in the first place!
Suggest a holiday to meet this person in the US face to face first.
Enjoy all the excuses as to why they can't visit.
Yeah, and offer to take the money with you when you go - what a lovely way to build a meaningful relationship!! 🤣
My missus seems susceptible to getting those, "Mum, I've got a new mobile number and need to pay some bills" tryers. Strings them along with multiple offers to send you dad round with cash.
Suggest a holiday to meet this person in the US face to face first.
Enjoy all the excuses as to why they can't visit.
I listened into a call between the claimed CEO of this charity and a friend, and you could hear him making stuff up on the spot. In the charity's Instagram videos he's presented as a suave guy in his 60s; in reality he's 20 years or so younger and digitally aging himself. When told the real guy was known to be in the UK, he pivoted to "he's only there for a wedding". Which is weird, because he's been making excuses about how desperately he's been to get to the UK to visit my mum.
I have tried sending all this stuff to the local Sheriff's office, along with the equivalent of Company's House in the state, but not had any response. I can get to Portland very easily, and I'm tempted to go nip over and try to get a face-to-face meeting with a police officer.
