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Bit concerned about a close family member who's in a long-distance relationship with someone in the USA. They spend hours talking each day on WhatsApp (video and voice), but have just asked me for help liquidating some land. I've never met the person, but they have an Instagram account with many thousands of followers and post videos which are clearly AI.
I've been contacted independently by four close friends who've raised concerns, but I'm at a bit of a loss about next steps. I think a conversation along the lines of "this is a scam" will not go down well. Short of all of us gathering together to say the same thing in unison, I feel at a complete loss.
I do have a lasting power of attorney, but it feels a nuclear move to invoke it and talk to their bank. Essentially there's lots of stuff online for "is this a romance scam" and a lot of boxes are being ticked, but very little stuff for family members.
It's either the nuclear option or you "help" them with the land, but make sure that you get to the conveyancer first.
Nuclear option - get people round and use LPA to stop anything financial going on. They will hate you now, but if you don't and they are scammed, they will hate you more after.
If it looks dodgy, it usually is.
I assume an older person ?
Maybe invoke LPA and investigate any 'dodgy' bank transfers. Anyone asking for money is 99% a scam.
+1 on of someone they have never met is asking for money, it's a scam.
Invoke LPA and get friends round them.
I do have a lasting power of attorney, but it feels a nuclear move to invoke it and talk to their bank.
What is the point of power of attorney if it’s not used for this exact scenario. Speak to the bank urgently
Just getting aware with LPA, it can be used immediately after registration (if the donor consents) or only when the donor loses the mental capacity to make their own decisions.
You can probably argue that if they're sending money to someone to "free up land" in the US that they've already lost the capacity to make safe and sane decisions but that's not the same as someone being doolally.
Just getting aware with LPA, it can be used immediately after registration (if the donor consents) or only when the donor loses the mental capacity to make their own decisions.
You can probably argue that if they're sending money to someone to "free up land" in the US that they've already lost the capacity to make safe and sane decisions but that's not the same as someone being doolally.
But .. everyone is allowed to make what other people regard as an unwise decisions.
If you feel this member has lost capacity to make informed decision then you`d best arrange for a professional to confirm it.
To reiterate what's said by others but in blunt terms. You can't just use LPA to stop them doing something you don't agree with, people can be consciously stupid with their money if they want. If you think they lack the capability to make the decision (not just need help with the mechanics) then you'll need professional support for that (unless as said they consent but if you're trying to stop them chances are they wouldn't)
Tough one. I'd do as they asked and 'help' them do what they want, by first contacting a couple of conveyancers and asking them to explain the process to you both. And if it is a scam they'll point that out and your relative is then free to make an informed decision.
There are two types of LPA, which do you have?
You can't just use LPA to stop them doing something you don't agree with, people can be consciously stupid with their money if they want. I
Quite agree. But the point of a PoA is the responsibility to protect the person in question.
There are two types of LPA, which do you have?
It's a Lasting Power of Attorney covering property and financial affairs.
Thanks for all the advice, by the way.
But the point of a PoA is the responsibility to protect the person in question.
That still doesn't mean you can step in and agree this transaction, decline that one...
It's all or nothing.
You can't use the LPA unless you can show them to be incompetent. Doing stuff contrary to their wishes (even if you think their wishes are stupid) is extremely illegal and likely to land you in trouble.
Though contrary to the poster above, it is certainly not all or nothing either. It is case by case, is the person competent.
What is the point of power of attorney if it’s not used for this exact scenario. Speak to the bank urgently
The point is very clearly to act in the place of the donor when the donor does not have the capacity to act, or when the donor explicitly allows the attorney to act in their place. I do the latter for my mother occasionally (some financial stuff, she still has capacity but can't be bothered dealing with everything...)
It's a Lasting Power of Attorney covering property and financial affairs.
Is is already active or does it only come into play when the donor loses capacity? This is a choice that was made when the document was created.
But the point of a PoA is the responsibility to protect the person in question.
Firstly .. best know the difference between the LPA and a very different PoA ..
As others have said. Having LPA for property & financial decisions for someone only means your the decision maker when they lose capacity to make property or financial decisions .. they can, with their consent, allow you to to do this when they have capacity.
It's not good enough to think they have lost capacity just because they appear to be making an unwise decision. The bank etc will want proof from a professional stating person is lacking capacity. Typically a solicitor will arrange to pay a GP to do this (at your cost of course)
Capacity is situation dependent - so you can have capacity to decide that you are going to eat icecream for lunch but may not have it to burn all your money. However just because we think a decision is stupid does not mean they are not competent to make that stupid decision
But - and its a big but - you need a professional to check competence as others have said
Get them to listen to this R4 program on Sounds: 'Dating fraud - don't worry I'm rich' ?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002h3ks?partner=uk.co.bbc&origin=share-mobile
I think a conversation along the lines of "this is a scam" will not go down well.
But that's your only option, surely? It seems mad to me that people are talking about legal options because you're reluctant to talk to them directly. You wouldn't be entrusted with Attorney if you weren't trusted.
The bank etc will want proof from a professional stating person is lacking capacity. Typically a solicitor will arrange to pay a GP to do this (at your cost of course)
I don't recall going through this process for any of the several LPAs that I've been involved in. Indeed it's hard to see what form such a hypothetical proof could take, as already stated capacity is a case-by-case question anyway and someone can lack capacity for a certain decision on a particular day yet have capacity for this same decision the next day let alone other decisions.
What actually happens (IME) is that the financial institution will accept your word if you present them with the LPA document. Of course there's an onus on you (the attorney) to act legally and responsibly.
Quite agree. But the point of a PoA is the responsibility to protect the person in question.
No a LPA is so that you can run there affairs when they can’t. It’s for you to carry out there wishes
Plus if you think telling them is a fraud won’t go well i can’t see using a LPA to block financially is going to go down any better
The only options are talking to them or talking to the police. If they have a solicitor could they talk to them
Surely if you suspect a fraud is being committed then contacting the bank and/or the police is the (nuclear) option.
The bank should have a fraud team and someone that can talk your relative through things. The police may also have someone that can do this.
PoA or not you suspect that they are about to be defrauded, don't get dragged down a STW war of pedants and miss the big picture.
The bank etc will want proof from a professional stating person is lacking capacity. Typically a solicitor will arrange to pay a GP to do this (at your cost of course)
I don't recall going through this process for any of the several LPAs that I've been involved in. Indeed it's hard to see what form such a hypothetical proof could take, as already stated capacity is a case-by-case question anyway and someone can lack capacity for a certain decision on a particular day yet have capacity for this same decision the next day let alone other decisions.
What actually happens (IME) is that the financial institution will accept your word if you present them with the LPA document. Of course there's an onus on you (the attorney) to act legally and responsibly.
+1
the most confusing part of taking over my mothers affairs was the sort of advice above, which clearly comes from people with no actual experience. I spent some weeks going around in circles trying to find out how to “invoke” the PoA and how to get an assessment. That’s not how it works.
you just do it. Not one of the dozens of orgs I needed to contact about my mums stuff ever asked to see anything more than the poa. There’s usually an application form, more of them are probably online now but it was only a few years back. Some banks required an in person meeting. Most require a solicitor certified copy of the form, some would only accept the original, less sensitive stuff like utilities are less fussy. And you had to post to them unless that in person meeting. Most reliably sent the certified copies back, some went missing. Get the certified copies stamped and signed *on every page*. Not all solicitors do this, some orgs insist on it.
Once it’s done a note gets put on the account and you can deal by phone, sometimes you get your own bank card. Someborgs are better set up than others.
If the individual objects and contacts the bank themselves then it could get messier and I can see an assessment might come into play then. My mum shouted about it (I think because post stopped coming) but was past having capacity to do anything about it. these processes and conversations are not pleasant or easy. But stopping her driving was worse.
I woud talk to them - tell them this is a scam - and do what you can to slow down any transfer etc asap even if they end up over riding you. This feels like a bit of a grey area - young people with full capacity get romance scammed (I know someone who had a partner they’d met in Caribbean who they sent money to support pregnancy and birth but then was miscarriage. Was all very sus)
Of course there's an onus on you (the attorney) to act legally and responsibly.
yes.
No a LPA is so that you can run there affairs when they can’t. It’s for you to carry out there wishes
sort of. I thought it was to act in their best interests rather than “their wishes” because once mental capacity goes wishes aren’t rational. My mum became increasingly abusive yo all of us trying to help her. “I hate you all, I don’t want you touching my money, you’re not getting any of it, I’m changing my will”
It's not good enough to think they have lost capacity just because they appear to be making an unwise decision. The bank etc will want proof from a professional stating person is lacking capacity. Typically a solicitor will arrange to pay a GP to do this (at your cost of course)
This is 100% categorically not true
It's not good enough to think they have lost capacity just because they appear to be making an unwise decision. The bank etc will want proof from a professional stating person is lacking capacity. Typically a solicitor will arrange to pay a GP to do this (at your cost of course)
This is 100% categorically not true
I know. It is *really* unhelpful putting misinformation like this out there. It makes life massively confusing for people trying to navigate a difficult time
Don’t write about stuff you clearly have no experience of.
I know. It is *really* unhelpful putting misinformation like this out there. It makes life massively confusing for people trying to navigate a difficult time
Don’t write about stuff you clearly have no experience of.
TBH I would point that back....just because you have had and used a LPA without needing an assessment doesn't mean that was right, I'd query if the bank has followed appropriate guidance if they stopped this happening just because someone with a LPA has told them their relative can't make the decision [edit - although I'd expect them to question/pause it if it is a clear scam anyway, and that might them enable standard of proof decision to be taken]
This is what Google AI says. I have slightly reworded the question to save space, but essentially the same, ie: are they capable of making a decision, not whether it's a good or bad one.
**
- Understand the information (e.g., the high risks, lack of regulation).
- Retain that information long enough to make the choice.
- Weigh up the pros and cons logically.
- Communicate their decision clearly. [1]
- Contact a professional: Request a formal capacity assessment from their GP, a psychiatrist, or a social worker. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]
- Hire a specialist provider: If the GP is unavailable, look for independent assessors via the Social Care Institute for Excellence (SCIE).
- Focus the assessment: Explicitly tell the assessor that the focus is their capacity to manage high-risk, overseas financial investments.
[Notify Bank of Scam Risk] ➔ [Request Temporary Freeze] ➔ [Register POA with Bank]
- Alert their bank: Contact the fraud department of your relative’s bank immediately. Report that a vulnerable adult is being targeted by an overseas scam. [1]
- Request a temporary hold: Ask the bank to place a temporary fraud trigger or hold on large international transfers.
- Register your POA: Ensure your Lasting Power of Attorney (LPA) is fully registered with the Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) and that the bank has a certified copy on file. [1]
- Check warning signs: Look for red flags using the Financial Conduct Authority (FCA) ScamSmart tool.
- Print FCA warnings: Search the FCA Warning List for the scheme name. Show your relative and the bank if the firm is unauthorised.
- Document the interactions: Note down your relative's inability to explain how the investment works or how returns are generated. [1, 2, 3]
- The "Unwise Decision" rule: Legally, having capacity means a person is allowed to make eccentric or financially poor decisions, provided they truly understand the risks.
- LPA activation terms: Check your LPA document. If it is a Property and Financial Affairs LPA, look at the restrictions. Some allow you to act while the person still has capacity (with their consent), while others only activate once capacity is lost.
There are references posted, here's one link. https://www.athilaw.co.uk/post/power-of-attorney-and-mental-capacity-what-the-law-demands
I thought it was to act in their best interests rather than “their wishes”
In theory it's both and when they coincide it's fine. When they differ....well, TBH part of the "not having capacity" thing is that you can do what is appropriate and they don't have the capacity to undo or oppose you meaningfully. They may grumble or whine or even shout but actually....they are basically not capable.
Eg if you take away the keys from someone not fit to drive (which TBH is a somewhat separate issue anyway)...will they actually call the police and/or get a replacement set? My FiL's car conveniently broke down and was "unrepairable", he wanted us to help him get a new car....and we didn't. He couldn't do that himself so from that point on he didn't have one.
And once they are in a care home, they may say they want to leave, but they don't actually manage the nuclear option of calling the police and claiming kidnap - which of course would be valid if they were truly of sound mind and held against their will.
Incidentally, I don't seen an error in the anagallis_arvensis comment posted above. As I said, we never got asked for any sort of "proof" of lack of capacity (two separate cases, England and Scotland), and indeed I don't think such proof is part of the system even in theory let alone practice. You can't generally prove a lack of capacity, it is context and case-specific. Even in a dementia care home people may continue to make some valid choices even if it's only what pudding they want.
In practice people just muddle through the system, it's not always perfect (and different institutions have their own approach) but it's a hell of a lot better than nothing. The worst experience we had was actually with the NHS who seemed to treat FiL as having capacity or not at their convenience - eg restraining him (mildly) for his own good but also telling him about his medical situation and not bothering to talk to his daughter and ask for informed consent about their plans (which we didn't fully understand the consequences of until it was too late to do anything about it).
Getting back to the OP, from their description of the situation they are a long way removed from an LPA scenario anyway.
It's not good enough to think they have lost capacity just because they appear to be making an unwise decision. The bank etc will want proof from a professional stating person is lacking capacity. Typically a solicitor will arrange to pay a GP to do this (at your cost of course)
This is 100% categorically not true
Agreed. It looks like a comment from someone who has not only never worked for a bank or similar but has actually never even used a banking app on online banking.
Given the hoops one has to jump through to make a valid payment it's obvious that ....
the most confusing part of taking over my mothers affairs was the sort of advice above, which clearly comes from people with no actual experience. I spent some weeks going around in circles trying to find out how to “invoke” the PoA and how to get an assessment. That’s not how it works.
I rest my case .. anyone who thinks a PoA is same as an LPA knows very very little. They may seem the same - but even a quick Google lets you know they aren't.
Ok, to clarify (and again, Google is your friend here too). A person must have capacity to appoint an LPA - so by default they are considered to have capacity in the areas they have identified the donee ... So it will legally need to be confirmed if/when person loses capacity ... What's so difficult to understand about that?
As for the "my bank never asked for proof they lacked capacity .." ... They should have; that's the law.
Scottish and English law is also different iirc
Under scots law you are expected to make decisions in the way the person would have wanted if they were able. Not in their best interests or what you think is best.
an example would be if they have previously made it clear they want to stay in an unsuitable house even if it carries risks then you need to facilitate that
Maybe have a read of this re LPA
And this...
https://www.moneyhelper.org.uk/en/family-and-care/long-term-care/setting-up-a-power-of-attorney
Under scots law you are expected to make decisions in the way the person would have wanted if they were able. Not in their best interests or what you think is best.
I think they are both the same thing really - in English law it says you must take past wishes and beliefs etc which would get you to the same outcome.
Scots law says something like 'Any intervention must benefit the adult' .. Like in their best interests, without saying in their best interest..
On a separate point raised by b33k34
I know you said it was a few years back, I wonder if there's now a similar service to the 'Tell us once' service for bereavement - there's one for Gov via DWP and another for banks and other financial institutions which generally makes the process easier, when my mum died we still had to send some death certs off (another issue* but that's another story) but my dad did all that so not sure how many needed DC's and how many could go from the Tell us Once registration.
If not, perhaps there should be. All LPAs are centrally filed after all, a simple reference number and a system process to flag them as activated or not would make that far easier.
* because there was a potential medical neglect/negligence issue, an inquest was called that took almost 2 years to happen, and until that happened the cause of death cannot be officially stated. So we didn't get a DC for almost 2 years, instead we got a 'Certificate of Fact of Death' which is an online form. But some of the institutions we needed to notify it felt like they'd never heard of it; others demanded an original copy (there isn't one, it's a pdf form, which the coroner helpfully writes at the bottom to say there is no hard copy / wet signature version and still some places wanted us to print out and have 'certified') I had to check a couple of times but yes it was 2023, not 1923
and also +1 for talk to them. They made you LPA for a reason.
Surely if you suspect a fraud is being committed then contacting the bank and/or the police is the (nuclear) option.
The bank should have a fraud team and someone that can talk your relative through things. The police may also have someone that can do this.
PoA or not you suspect that they are about to be defrauded, don't get dragged down a STW war of pedants and miss the big picture.
I wonder you know whether this approach could backfire. I could readily see a bank refusing to reimburse your (relative's) money if you told them you knew you were being defrauded and then went ahead anyway.
If not, perhaps there should be. All LPAs are centrally filed after all, a simple reference number and a system process to flag them as activated or not would make that far easier.
They aren't all held online. Sometimes you have to send authenticated paper copies of older ones off
There is an online system that amongst other things allows:
- let companies or organisations view a one page summary of an LPA
- keep track of who has been given access to an LPA
You ring the company and give them an access code, but AFAIK you have to ring each company. So far just bank, local council (council tax rebate), NHS and DWP. The utilities have accepted simple cancellations
https://www.gov.uk/manage-lasting-power-attorney/use-lasting-power-of-attorney
I rest my case .. anyone who thinks a PoA is same as an LPA knows very very little. They may seem the same - but even a quick Google lets you know they aren't.
This is true, but it should be abundantly clear what people are talking about. They've just got the wrong acronym (a mistake I would have made until this thread), not the wrong paperwork/legalese.
This is true, but it should be abundantly clear what people are talking about. They've just got the wrong acronym (a mistake I would have made until this thread), not the wrong paperwork/legalese.
For those who want to be pendantic, LPA is a specific type of power of attorney and thus using the abbreviation PoA isn't actually wrong at all, just potentially ambiguous as not all PoAs are LPAs.
This is true, but it should be abundantly clear what people are talking about. They've just got the wrong acronym (a mistake I would have made until this thread), not the wrong paperwork/legalese.
For those who want to be pendantic, LPA is a specific type of power of attorney and thus using the abbreviation PoA isn't actually wrong at all, just potentially ambiguous as not all PoAs are LPAs.
There are two types - the short term temporary type allowing someone to make decisions for you for example if you go on holidays and need someone to ensure bills etc are paid. The other is a longer lasting type typically put in place in preparation for when you lose capacity sometime in the future ... you guessed it, thats called a Lasting Power of Attorney.
Now, I have sat in many strat meetings where people have been fleeced by relatives holding LPAs, and the frustrating bit is that it could have been avoided very easily if someone had asked to see proof the person was now lacking capacity. So yes - some banks etc are dangerously incompetent in not doing this simple safeguard; but they should.
Its not pedantic to seek clarification if someone has temporary Power of Attorney for someone. Because did they have it 6 years ago when a person had to go into hospital for awhile .. these people referring to PoA are typically the ones who also don`t understand the difference between being a persons NOK also.
As others here have sensibly advised - talk to the family member first and gauge if she is able to make an informed decision, mindful she is also able to make what some may feel is an unwise decision. Going in heavy and taking over without authority is potentially fraud on your behalf.
After talking to the family member, if you feel they are lacking capacity - then raise it as a safeguarding with said bank account whilst you seek to clarify any capacity concerns.
