[Closed] More clever advertising that I don't understand...

The Flying Ox - Member

It's not nonsense. It's a question you can't answer because the answer either outs you as someone influenced by marketing or a buffoon with the financial decision making skills of a 4 year old.

No its not its a nonsense question. Its not something that could ever exisit in real life. there would always be other considerations such as place of manufacture, amount of packaging, and other differences in the product.

Wher people have asked questions possible to answer I have attempted to do so

So - I will answer more if another two pages is posted

CaptainFlashheart - Member

i am laughing at the obsessiveness of folk arguing

Dear Kettle, you are black.

Yours sincerely,

Pot.

2 pages posted without me posting a thing - while I rode 25 miles on my bike, dug some ditches, watched a couple of rugby games, cooked tea etc.

So - 2 more pages or will the mods put it out of its misery?

my daughter puts forward a more compelling argument for washing up brand a rather than brand b against tj's. she goes by colour.

I do not put forward any argument for brand a over brand b - have yo actually been reading? I don't care which it is so long as it does what I want it to do

so go on chaps - can you dish up two pages of arguement with me without my help?

2 pages posted without me posting a thing - while I rode 25 miles on my bike, dug some ditches, watched a couple of rugby games, cooked tea etc.

go you and your life outside STWland...
Its like you needed to emphasise it....just in case it was a bit unlikely...

I do not put forward any argument for brand a over brand b - have yo actually been reading? I don't care which it is so long as it does what I want it to do

but you make a choice, without any basis for making that choice (or secretly you do,but, for some perverse reason you claim you don't) whereas my daughter does make a choice based on what she unknowingly sees (which you dont).

what have YOU been reading?

Marketing is nonsense.
I watched the EDF advert 3 times but I still don't need a poo.

No its not its a nonsense question. Its not something that could ever exisit in real life. there would always be other considerations such as place of manufacture, amount of packaging, and other differences in the product.

With superhuman stubborn-ness and logic like that, there's only one possible scenario:
You are my wife, and I claim my £5. Now stop arguing. It upsets the baby.

🙂

What you guys seem unable to understand is the separation between what the object is and what its marketed as - sometimes this gulf is small,sometimes large

Junkyard - lots and lots of phrases where I qualify the absolute. even in your quote most people would not take "bugger all" as absolute zero would they? Why yo keep on doing this selective quoting and then inventing things yo claim I will say^ is rather obsessive

Obsessive...iirc correctly that would be a beautiful example of "inventing things" and doing a personal attack...you know the kind of stuff you accuse others of doing ad naseum whilst ignoring your own departures into these area.

I would refer you to this thread *where you made up something i had never said in order to refute it...you did have the good sense to leave the thread after doing this but I am sure by now there is a TJ reason that will explain this behaviour...I am certain you weren't wrong despite the inability to quote me.

Honestly how many people need to keep saying the same old stuff to you before you consider the possibility that we may actually have a point about this issue and your posting style in general?

* http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/the-helmet-debate-rumbles-on-in-the-mainstream-media/page/4#post-3855126

^

I have only got to Page 2 of 5 sI am sure it continued till that post [ [b]you are going to trawl your own posts to find something and I wish you luck but it was clear what you were saying.[/b].you were free of marketting and we were arrogant and patronising to suggest you were not. You appear to accept our view that you are influenced though I am sure there is a special Ninja TJ argument move you will now pull to deny this

Had you qualified it as such we could have avoided most of this.
I shall leave you to claim I am being personal, misrepresenting your quotes, telling me you never said what i have quoted etc that and all the other usual stuff you do when you TJ an argument.

I bet you are going to claim that your replies did none of this aren't you

I'm with TJ on this, What's so surprising about ignoring/not being swayed by marketing. Some of us have a mind of our own. we are not all sheep!

It's quite possible that you personally aren't affected by marketing but that doesn't mean that it doesn't work. The last time that this came up I posted a link to a large scale test that showed a bunch of things that proved that marketing works but the key points from the test (which used a banner ad on a web page) were:

The ad only increased people's spending on the product by 5% on average. It doesn't seem much and leave plenty of scope for people not being affected. However that 5% gave an ROI of 3 so clearly it worked.

90% of the people whose spending increased never bought the product online even though it was an online ad. They probably imagine that the ad had no effect on them and anyone doing a simple analysis of the effect of the banner such as sales linked to clicks on the banner would imagine that the marketing failed. Only when a full analysis of both offline and online sales was done was the really effect seen.

So for me personally it is quite possible that some people aren't affected but from a marketing point of view enough people are affected to make it worth the effort. As someone who spends money on online advertising it was interesting that I shouldn't put too much weight only on what I see happening online.

That looks very interesting leffeboy, but it only appears to be focussed on advertising, which we all know is just small part of the work that the marketing machine undertakes.
It's not necessarily a question of being affected by, but more a question of benefitting from marketing.

Yep, but a banner ad was the only way to be able to be sure whether or not someone in the target group had actually seen it and hence allow for a proper control group who your were sure ( or largely sure) hadn't seen it.

There were more interesting studies on the web doing things such as flashing subliminal images and showing that it later changed your likelihood of selecting a particular product when in a rush but none of those linked to data that we could actually look at without paying. The idea there being that you wouldn't be able to affect people who thought carefully about each purchase but for people who just bought something and got on with the next job their decisions were affected by stuff they weren't aware of. At least that was what they wanted to tell us - without numbers it is hearsay really

Edit: somewhat amusingly the iPad keeps changing hearsay to heresy. Take your pick, either seems to work 🙂

I'm with TJ on this, What's so surprising about ignoring/not being swayed by marketing. Some of us have a mind of our own. we are not all sheep!

Being able to think for yourself does not mean you are not influenced by marketing...

You need to understand that advertising/marketing communications are only a single component of what marketing actually is. There's far more to it than what you consciously experience as a consumer.

If you've ever made a buying decision ever, in your life, then you have made that decision, in part, under the influence of marketing.

Marketing is made up of:
The product itself
The price
The way its promoted (branding, advertising, social media etc)
Where you buy it from

It also sells stuff to people based on their motivations and various human needs. People very frequently are not as aware of their motivations for buying stuff, as they think they are.

I have a mind of my own but I am still influenced by marketing. There's no shame in that IMO...

Some of us have a mind of our own. we are not all sheep!

So the rest of us who argue that marketing does have an effect, are unable to think for ourselves? 🙄

Arrogance aside, you are telling us that you are in complete control of your subconscious and any subliminal attempts to market products to you?

[i]If you've ever made a buying decision ever, in your life, then you have made that decision, in part, under the influence of marketing.[/i]

My arse.

I punctured a car tyre after 11 hours of a 16 hour drive back from Europe. I changed to the little tiny spare about 30 seconds from the ferry doors closing. When we got to Dover, I drove to the first tyre place in the town and said 'Put me a new tyre on'.

Then I paid for said tyre, and carried on driving.

Marketing input? Nil.

Although I am a little sceptical of TJs dismissal of any marketing input, I am also sceptical of the insistence that each and every purchasing decision that is made in the UK and the wider world is attributable to the wonders of the marketing genius.

Marketing has an impact, but much of that is over-rated by people who use a goodly amount of 'hair product'.

I do find it most amusing how any of the anti-marketing squad can stand in any shop with a product in their hands, ready to buy it, and can say that they are not affected by marketing.
While I could agree crikey, I feel compelled to ask you how easy it was to find the tyre supplier?

How easy? I drove off the ferry and turned right off the main road.

I know you are going to suggest that this indicates the all powerful hand of the marketing genius, but I already knew there was a tyre place there because two years earlier, while waiting for a mate to buy some petrol, I'd walked round the corner and had a wee in their forecourt at 4:30 am in the morning.

Marketing or bladder capacity?

I know you are going to suggest that this indicates the all powerful hand of the marketing genius

...I buy lots of stuff based on the way it is marketed, but I also [b]don't[/b] buy lots of stuff based on the way it is marketed.

Rapha is a case in point; I wouldn't buy it because of the marketing, despite it being very good cycling clothing.

[i]No, I'm going to suggest the tyre company chose the place to locate their workshop/sales area that would make it easy for customers in their market to find.[/i]

a) It's in Dover.

Dover is essentially a street at the bottom of a cliff with a ferry port at one end and a way out to the rest of the UK at the other.

b) It's on a road.

..you are correct that it was not in a pedestrian area, but that doesn't indicate that it was placed there because the owner had been to marketing college, it would indicate that is was placed there because he is not a dick.

..you are correct that it was not in a pedestrian area, but that doesn't indicate that it was placed there because the owner had been to marketing college, it would indicate that is was placed there because he is not a dick.

one of my favourite ads of all time. and yet i never eat cadburys, i'm more of a galaxy man, myself....

[i]I also assume he had a sign large enough for you identify that he sold tyres[/i]

Nope.

I knew they sold tyres because I saw them through the window when I was having a wee. The signs were taken in overnight, presumably to avoid alerting the French invasion force that they could obtain rubber wheel coverings to commence and continue their journey to London to kidnap the Queen. Or to avoid them being nicked.

I feel the fundamental problem in this debate is the definition of the concept of marketing; it would appear that those who need to support and defend the concept adopt a definition so over-arching and all encompassing that nothing should be considered to be 'not-marketing'.

I am quite prepared to accept that many of the purchases we make are influenced by marketing, but I am not prepared to accept that the reason human children are born with eyes is to be informed about what stuff to buy.

Marketing input? Nil.

Wrong. There was a marketing decision to site the tyre workshop just where people would see it coming off the ferry. As you then drove there to make your purchase, as opposed to driving round Dover randomly, and ignoring said marketing, you were affected by the marketing decision on where to site the store

Simples

I feel the fundamental problem in this debate is the definition of the concept of marketing;

[i]There was a marketing decision to site the tyre workshop just where people would see it coming off the ferry[/i]

Brilliant!

...but if you had read the words that I have written, you would see that the tyre place was not, in fact 'just where people would see it coming off the ferry'.

Would you like to try a bit harder?

[i]marketing does influence the passage of every product from conception to final market.[/i]

I agree to some extent, but I would suggest that

[i]marketing does have [b]some variable and ill-defined influence on[/b] the passage of every product from conception to final market,[/i]

to be rather more accurate.

Would you like to try a bit harder?

I am not prepared to accept that the reason human children are born with eyes is to be informed about what stuff to buy.

I'm with you on this. We were given them to work out which fruits to pick or not pick, which animals looked easiest to kill, which animals looked like they might kills us and which mate looked best to procreate with... amongst other things.

marketing does have [b]some variable and ill-defined[/b] influence on the passage of every product from conception to final market,

crikey,in an earlier post i intimated that my 3 yr old has more resoning behind 'her' purchases than tj does. He would have us believe he does something akin to pin the tale on the donkey. Which is nonsense. My daughter doesn't know what chocolate tastes like, but she likes bright colours so reaches for the bright packets, coincidentaly at child height, when she's in the shop.

It's so ingrained in all of us.

As don simon says, advertising is but a small part.

I like rapha, i like their kit, i kinda like their films, i like the way they play on the physical hardness of cycling. Cuz we are hard!

I punctured a car tyre after 11 hours of a 16 hour drive back from Europe. I changed to the little tiny spare about 30 seconds from the ferry doors closing. When we got to Dover, I drove to the first tyre place in the town and said 'Put me a new tyre on'.

Then I paid for said tyre, and carried on driving.

Marketing input? Nil.

what tyre was it?
the cheapest? the one not quite the cheapest with a name you had heard of? not a continental because you had a bad experience with vert pro's? a michelin as you trust the brand unlike the dunlops that came with the car but feel a bit squirmy in the wet? the one you liked the look of because the tread looked good and not some odd pattern? the only one they had in the size you needed?

i think we need to know how you came to a decision on your purchase for the sake of those who like to argue.

Prices are usually fairly well defined, at least where I live.

Barter and haggling may be a feature of your retail activity, but it's not something I can honestly suggest I do often.

i think we need to know how you came to a decision on your purchase for the sake of those who like to argue

He started a 'what tyre for driving off ferries?' thread.

EDIT:

Prices are usually fairly well defined, at least where I live.

How is the price set, or more importantly by who? Who collates this information? And who does pretty graphs to show the effects on demand whenever the price goes up or down? Who is responsible for designing the discount prices or the special offer?

[i]i think we need to know how you came to a decision on your purchase for the sake of those who like to argue.[/i]

A persistent feature of the pro-marketeers seems to be an insistence on argument for the sake of it.

I said 'Put me a new tyre on'.

He did, and then I paid for it.

C'est tout.

I didn't look to see what colour it was, what the packaging was like, what tyre buying experience I was being offered, what the effect on my self image, my self esteem or that of my family would be.

I just bought a tyre.

A persistent feature of the pro-marketeers seems to be an insistence on argument for the sake of it.

I said 'Put me a new tyre on'.

He did, and then I paid for it.

[i]How is the price set, or more importantly by who? Who collates this information? And who does pretty graphs to show the effects on demand whenever the price goes up or down? Who is responsible for designing the discount prices or the special offer?[/i]

I really didn't care; 11 hours in and 5 more to go, family of me, wife and 3 kids in car. I needed a tyre, asked for and got one.

Presumably that counts as a win for the tyre buying experience chaps...

He didn't ask you what kind of tyre you wanted?

[i]He didn't ask you what kind of tyre you wanted?[/i]

Nope, and I got no colour choice either.

That is very unusual, i've always been asked what brand or at least if i want budget, or not. I bet you were overcharged and it took ages

It cost £40 and took about 15 minutes. Maybe you look like a sucker?

Maybe you look like a sucker?

I must do, that sounds like excellent service. I have a friend in Dover who needs a full set on his Saab. Near the ferry port you say. I'll let him know, can you remember what it was called or a a more precise location?

wow....

[i]But not the fact that marketing is involved in every purchase you make.[/i]

Yes, if it makes you feel better.

I prefer to think that when I've been driving for that length of time I develop a thousand yard stare which makes people give me the best deal they can possibly acheive to avoid being killed.
I could be wrong.

As long as you don't feel like you've been suckered into anything.

[i]I'll let him know, can you remember what it was called or a a more precise location?[/i]

You mean you want me to market the product to him?

Show me the money...

What ? No! Not at all.i just wanted to know where one could find an honest and reliable tyre fitter in the Dover area. Thanks!

[i]As long as you don't feel like you've been suckered into anything[/i]

I asked Mrs Crikey and she said 'Shut up', which I probably the best advice I've heard all day.

[i]What ? No! Not at all.i just wanted to know where one could find an honest and reliable tyre fitter in the Dover area. Thanks![/i]

I'm still not seeing any money.... 😉

I've very little idea; it was about 4-5-6 years ago and I was a bit tired to be honest!

But not 'tyred' enough, i would venture! Ho ho!

Meh... I'll give you that one!

I'm not suggesting that I am immune to the charms of the marketing folk; I but many things that are undoubtedly sold to people like me; I buy Oakley specs, and their copies. I buy Castelli clothes, I buy and am interested in stuff that is sold and marketed to me through the whole pro-cycling thing. I'm just not so sure about the 'marketing touches every transaction' thing...

I'm just not so sure about the 'marketing touches every transaction' thing...

Tell you one thing - irarely get boggoff unless I wanted two anyway

Eh? You pick up one item and leave another perfectly free one on the shelf? You must have more money than sense.

my daughter puts forward a more compelling argument for washing up brand a rather than brand b against tj's. she goes by colour.

this is NOT a decision she makes based on marketing. they are the colours they are by accident, not by design.

Er, no. Washing up liquid is precisely coloured specifically for marketing reasons. If it was accidentally any colour it'd be clear.

I drove to the first tyre place in the town and said 'Put me a new tyre on'.

Then I paid for said tyre, and carried on driving.

Marketing input? Nil.

How do you think the tyre fitter chose a tyre for you? Randomly? "This is black and round, it'll do"? Or did he perhaps fit what they'd bought on offer that week, or had the highest %age markup, or the one he was on commission to fit due to a promotional campaign from the supplier, or the one he personally thought was best?

Marketing input? Plenty.

If you read this thread without logging in (and without the ad filter, I presume), you get an ad for this website [url= http://www.tyre-shopper.co.uk/ ]Tyre Shopper[/url]

Which is selling car tyres, on an MTB forum??

That's how sophisticated marketing is folks, there's no way that's a coincidence, they must be tracking the words used in the thread and serving up what they think are appropriate ads. Genius 😉

[i]How do you think the tyre fitter chose a tyre for you?[/i]

He had [b]one[/b] tyre in the place that fitted my car, it being a not entirely standard vehicle. It [b]was[/b] black, and round... are you some kind of Psychic?

Again, I dispute your estimate of marketing input.

I wonder how they chose which brand of that size to carry?

cougar, my colour co,ment was an attempt at being facetious...

I have no idea.

I suggest though that your attempts to link marketing to the primary driving factor behind me buying a tyre when I needed one are becoming desperate.

He had one tyre in the place that fitted my car, it being a not entirely standard vehicle. It was black, and round..

How jolly convenient, given the point you're trying to make, eh? Jolly convenient.

Again, I dispute your estimate of marketing input.

It was the only tyre in the place, as he drove away, he noticed his other tyre was suspiciously in a similar condition to the one he replaced

Again, I dispute your estimate of marketing input.

Opinions are always valid...

Problem is, speaking as someone with 16 years experience, DS clearly understands marketing and is explaining just how the process works - and that's it underpins everything a business does in relation to its customers. Basically, a business cannot have customers if it does not do marketing...

Worth taking a look here - the Chartered Institute of Marketing website and the pdf which defines the 7Ps of marketing.

[url= http://www.cim.co.uk/resources/understandingmarket/definitionmkting.aspx ]CIM definition of marketing[/url]

The management process responsible for identifying, anticipating and satisfying customer requirements profitably.

[i]Jolly convenient.[/i]

Indeed, thank goodness for tyre purveyors, otherwise the situation would have been somewhat inconvenient. I think you might have to explain your point further, for its meaning has escaped me.

[i]Would you have accepted the tyre if they tried charging 2k?[/i]

So we are haggling over the price now, rather than talking about the pervasiveness or otherwise of marketing?

Has anyone ever seen TJ and crikey in the same room at the same time?

There's a picture somewhere. I think it's been photoshopped or air-brushed though TBH.

[i]the Chartered Institute of Marketing website and the pdf which defines the 7Ps of marketing.[/i]

Sorry.... The Institute of Marketing have a definition of ..... Marketing?

Well shave my head and call me a baldy, who'd a thunk it?

So we are haggling over the price now, rather than talking about the pervasiveness or otherwise of marketing?

Initially there were only 4Ps of marketing, but i think the extra ones were on a 3 for 2 offer.

Serious qusetion: are there any instances of a purchase, or otherwise exchange of money for service or goods in which marketing does not play a role?

crikey - Member
Serious qusetion: are there any instances of a purchase, or otherwise exchange of money for service or goods in which marketing does not play a role?

Well, there was this bloke that needed to buy a tyre once....

...and, as with my Rapha thing above, are there any instances in which the marketing of a product or service has a detrimental effect?

Serious qusetion: are there any instances of a purchase, or otherwise exchange of money for service or goods in which marketing does not play a role?

Is that not a fairly wide definition of 'marketing'?

I would choose to view marketing as the promotion of a product, rather than the entire process of production and eventual sales. I would not be averse to being educated about this, having it 'marketed' to me, as it where.

are there any instances in which the marketing of a product or service has a detrimental effect

Actually, I was just thinking this over while I was listening to a Stella Artois Cidre ad on XFM. Now, it wouldn't be my favourite cider in the first place, but occasionally if I see it going cheap, I'll pick up a few cans of it - can't beat a can of cold shitty cider after a hot sessions of circuits in the evening sun (well you can, but that's another discussion). However, the current ad is trying to convince us that Cidre must be enjoyed from a chalice...bollocks...continental...Belgian accent...etc and that Cider is some bumpkin drink that has to be enjoyed from a "pint glass".

To be honest, Stella can **** off now if they think I'm going to buy their shite anymore on the basis of that kind of advertising. 🙂

Darcy, surely you should be drinking that well known Oirish Coider that is Magners?

Oh, no. Hold on a minute. That's utter rat's pish as well.

😉

Seriously, you're in Brizzle and drinking WifeBeater Cider? Hang your head in shame...! 🙂

cougar, my colour co,ment was an attempt at being facetious...

I do apologise, I'm a little decaffeinated today.

I suggest though that your attempts to link marketing to the primary driving factor behind me buying a tyre when I needed one are becoming desperate.

I'd concur with your suggestion that desperation is involved in this discussion, certainly.

More seriously, I wasn't saying that it was your 'primary' factor, I was disputing the assertion that marketing wasn't involved in your purchase. To wit, it was intrinsically involved, just indirectly; the garage chose what to stock, influenced by marketing decisions, even if you didn't.

Arguably of course, "you'll have to have this, it's the only one we've got" is the pinnacle of marketing strategy. You're in a garage with a flat tyre, you're the perfect target market for them to sell whatever they like to you with a fairly guaranteed 100% success rate.

Hey, maybe they thought "this guy is clearly not bothered and will buy any old shit, give him one of those in the back we've been trying to get shut of for months."

...and, as with my Rapha thing above, are there any instances in which the marketing of a product or service has a detrimental effect?

I would choose to view marketing as the promotion of a product, rather than the entire process of production and eventual sales. I would not be averse to being educated about this, having it 'marketed' to me, as it where.