MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
anyone taking a taxi on a regular basis (e.g. more than a couple of times a year) is demonstrating their time is worth more than the taxi driver’s
it is a strange take. having a cleaner? a gardener? I could see the logic but a taxi doesn't really fall into that camp.
Electric taxis are going to be an essential part of our public transport soon. And probably used more by those on lower incomes than high incomes, in areas away from London and other major conurbations anyway. We've spent a century building with car use in mind. Pair that with the deregulation and defunding of integrated public transport, and it's obvious that distributed vehicle sharing, rather than owning an expensive electric vehicle that needs somewhere to charge, will fill a gap for many without any significant means. Using, hiring, booking... not owning. People often get excited about driverless vehicles when talking about this, but the more prosaic answer is the tech we already have, used on roads we already have, driven by humans.
anyone taking a taxi on a regular basis (e.g. more than a couple of times a year) is demonstrating their time is worth more than the taxi driver’s
I used to get a cab everyday to work as a baker in Birmingham as there simply wasn't a Bearwood to Kings Heath bus at 3:30AM
I'm pretty confident, by the fact that the driver owned a car and I could barely afford driving lessons, that he was demonstrating that his time was worth more than mine.
If anyone needs more evidence that taxis are an important means of working class transport just look at Liz Truss's determination to get hid of them:
https://newsthump.com/2022/07/12/liz-truss-launches-tory-leadership-bid-by-promising-to-cut-taxis/
If you can't afford a chauffeur driven car then walk.
The taxi driver thing is a very strange take, the taxi driver probably uses his Visa card several times a week to pay for fuel.
Does he view petrol stations as being sub-sub-working class?
Does he view the bankers running the Visa network as sub-sub-sub-working class?
Rig workers on a north sea platform getting the oil out the ground?
It's daft to ascribe that paying for someone else time/skill/equipment is only done if you value it as being less than your own. It's just far more productive to have a division of labour. The taxi driver(s) can far more efficiently get me (and anyone else) from the railway station to the hotel anywhere in the country I happen to be working than I can keep a car in every town/city. Just as if he had to make his own TV shows it'd take aboutyears worth of manhours to make an evening's middling-quality TV (maybe an episode of pointless, but no GoT).
It’s daft to ascribe that paying for someone else time/skill/equipment is only done if you value it as being less than your own.
Ridiculous idea. What about lawyers or tax reduction advisers......
thestabiliser
In taxis?
A significant number of working class people use taxis as a) it eliminates the fixed costs of owning a car and b) busses are shite
This is 1/2 the point I'm making.
It's chicken and egg.
No they are demonstrating they need to hire a service, skill, equipment they do not have access to.
People regularly have to pay for someone who earns more then them or the same. This someone may have expertise, experience and or equipment that they don’t. People don’t just buy things of people who are poorer than themselves. It may be how your world works but not for most.
That's a completely different thing or at least it used to be when we had a traditional red wall labour voting working class. (The context)
To keep on the "taxi" though .. working class people were born with feet and where distances we longer or we had loads of shopping the were buses and trains.
This someone may have expertise, experience and or equipment that they don’t.
This is the point of Mass transit systems.... except our mass transit systems have now been broken to the point of not working. (Possibly as Ernie Lynch says with exceptions like London)
I'm not saying as northern traditional working class I'd not hire a 20 tonne crane and driver ... (which is expertise, experience and or equipment I don't have) I'm saying I wouldn't pay someone to drive me (outside of a dire emergency) or make me coffee/sandwiches (outside of a treat) both of which I have expertise, experience and equipment for.
As I say things moved on ... I can't even do half the things to my 2015 van I could with my old Escort Mk2... I can't buy the parts for the fridge/washing machine/oven if it breaks etc etc.
It may be how your world works but not for most.
This is my point, that is how my world used to work but if I can't get public transport between 2 sister hospitals 7.5 miles apart then that world no longer exists.
gobuchul
In “working class” areas, it is very common to have a free telephone to ring the local taxi company to pick you up, as it’s not possible to get home with your weekly shop without a car.
Again, I'm talking of TRADITIONAL (post war) labour voting working class... not to make too much of a joke out of this but Billy Connelly and cantaloupe melons and left over venison where Glaswegians bought veg from the van on the estate, we had local shops and pre-out of town hypermarkets.
I’m not saying as northern traditional working class I’d not hire a 20 tonne crane and driver … (which is expertise, experience and or equipment I don’t have) I’m saying I wouldn’t pay someone to drive me
If this is some sort of Monty Python Yorkshire Men vision of a historical working class, then you really wouldn't be driving anywhere surely.
I take taxis for example because for the short term at least I've decided not to spend several thousand pounds on buying, taxing, insuring, fueling and maintaining a car.
Molgrips
I see ‘working class*’ people take taxis all the time, usually at Asda. If you can’t afford a car but still need a weekly shop, and you’re not right on the bus route then it makes sense. Big shop once a week that you can’t carry, £10 for a taxi is a lot cheaper than your own car. And it’s also comparable to all the bus fares you’d need to go several times a week if you were only getting one bag’s worth at a time cos it’s all you can carry the 3/4 mile to the bus stop.
Don’t judge until you know – it’s what Tories do.
* obviously you can’t tell by looking at people if they are working class or not. I really mean people who don’t appear well off.
Do these people vote labour and did they traditionally vote labour?
(i.e. that's the point I'm making that the traditional labour voter has largely disappeared)
It's chicken and egg... the bus routes have disappeared and the local shops and markets been decimated by the growth of out of town supermarkets.
I'm not judging them, they are responding to the fact Adsa is miles off a bus route (that has been privatised and no longer runs as a public service) whilst their local shopping has been replaced by "free enterprise capitalism".
trailmonkey
I used to get a cab everyday to work as a baker in Birmingham as there simply wasn’t a Bearwood to Kings Heath bus at 3:30AM
cookeaa
My MIL
I'm talking in general here... i.e. "The electorate" or more specifically the TRADITIONAL labour voting electorate.
Jam-bo
it is a strange take. having a cleaner? a gardener? I could see the logic but a taxi doesn’t really fall into that camp.
It's semi random .. could be having your coffee/sandwiches made... but it does link in between the difference between Mick Lynch (and working class) and Keir Starmer (and "working people)
The same generalities apply.. it's not about cookeaa's MIL or trailmoney working in the bakery... or for that matter the train/bus/tube drivers it's about the change in "working class" to "working people" and why despite as Ernie Lynch points out 98% of the population being financially better off under a labour government (which I agree with) a huge percentage of that 98% voting Tory.
98% of the population being financially better off under a labour government (which I agree with) a huge percentage of that 98% voting Tory.
This is the key thing (not whether someone gets a taxi or not). Why does that huge percentage of the 98% continue to vote tory, election after election. Loads of reasons but the Tory party will just keep going until more of that 98% somehow wake up. They woke up to what Blair was offering and almost woke up at Corbyns approach until he blew it so it is possible and with Truss being so far unappealing (in strategy and just being her) it could be that time again.
🤞🏻
kerley
This is the key thing (not whether someone gets a taxi or not). Why does that huge percentage of the 98% continue to vote tory, election after election.
That was how we got into "working class" vs "working people" of Lynch vs Starmer
Fundamentally the ex-working class don't feel Labour represents their values outside of financial interests and they are willing to take the financial penalty for the non financial values. (and to some extent con themselves on the extent of the financial penalty)
GROSS OVER GENERALISATION (but that's how elections work).... it's the traditional Tory's who are obsessed with financial values not traditional Labour.
Why does that huge percentage of the 98% continue to vote tory, election after election.
it's the punching down mentality that the tories so successfully harness.
my BiL is a case in point, would benefit massively from labour policies, but rages about immigrants and benefit cheats, wouldn't vote labour in a 1000 years.
the place I used to work was the same. Maybe the latest round of tory incompetence has soured it a bit but I doubt it.
She’s been avoiding consulting with her own cabinet, so it seems unlikely she’ll talk with the leaders of the Scottish and Welsh Governments about what she’s thinking of doing (today).
Fundamentally the ex-working class don’t feel Labour represents their values
Who are these "ex-working class"?
Apart from the posh gits that travel around in taxis.
@stevextc I'm curious as to how you'd propose that my mum gets her weekly shop?
I don't think Steve is proposing that your mother shouldn't use taxis Cougar, as I understand it using a taxi now defines which social class someone represents.
Luckily I never use taxis so I can still proudly declare myself to be a member of the proletariat. I think.
The refusal to promote energy saving seems to be against their own stated aim of reducing government spending, as with the price cap every unit used will cost the government (and in the longer term all of us) the difference between the true cost and the cap price. I can’t see why she is said to be ‘ideologically opposed’, unless….
reducing government spending
Depends who's receiving that spending... and getting to keep it... (don't mention windfall taxes).
And... "can't tell people what to do..." really means... "won't offer good advice to help people reduce energy use, and spread the load away from peak times to avoid using gas and coal... that's what those greeno pinkos would do".
it is a strange take. having a cleaner? a gardener? I could see the logic but a taxi doesn’t really fall into that camp.
So Cleaners and Gardeners can only be 'employed' by rich folk then?
I've had a Cleaner pretty much all my working life - and I was 100% a Labour voter before coming to Scotland (SNP now), my folks too also had Cleaners. Voted Labour and my Dad was even a Labour Mayor.
In fact, I'm just watching two blokes chop the tops off our fruit trees in the garden - does this mean that I really should vote Tory?
Whilst I wouldn’t underestimate the seriousness of the situation I reckon Monbiot ignores a couple of important points in his attempt to paint a dark picture.
Something put me off him because he did this before in an article of his I read. I wish I could remember the exact details now, but I knew a point he had made was not correct.
I have to admit I'm not fully aware of the backgrounds of the political movements and groups he mentions in the video, but how he describes the current situation seems to fit with some level of plausibility. E.g. today's pulling of a Government backed energy saving campaign. It really makes no sense. People who don't want to be lectured to will ignore it, but it might just save people and the Government some money. Unless someone wants more money to go to energy companies and reduce the public pot?
Connor Burns
The Rohipnol MP we can't mention
Coke n Putin cash David Warburton
Chris Pincher
Definitely a last days of Rome vibe about the Tories
Oh and Braverman losing official secrets
https://twitter.com/mc_c55890972/status/1578419546838294529?t=CGE1dQE88g_uSGkV2bPNzg&s=19
Cougar
@stevextc I’m curious as to how you’d propose that my mum gets her weekly shop?
Whatever works ... I don't know where she lives but I'll assume close to where you were brought up and I'll assume further the local shops and bus routes you used as a kid no longer exist.
I care far more she (or her mates and my Mum etc.) vote "not Tory" than whether she uses a taxi...
The point here is the "working class" of your Mum's generation and her Mum's generation (post WWII/Bevan) don't exist anymore because they are through a mixture of choice and being forced living a "middle class" life by post WWII/Bevan standards. As I keep pointing out (or trying) being "working class" in those times was not based on income.
As an example: If you pop into Burnley next to the Town Hall is the mechanics institute, back in its day the mill mechanics were some of Burnley's best paid people (well men) BUT they were considered and considered themselves working class.
The whole point of this discussion that uses taxi's as a metaphor is the working class (as referred to by Mick Lynch) don't really exist in the same way.. hence I take it why Keir Starmer doesn't say "working class" but "working people".
Equally it's why train drivers on £40k are working class in Mick Lynch's world...??
Back when I was my kids age we had markets (Burnley, Accy, Nelson) and we could get a bus direct and it would stop within 200' of our house. We shopped more regularly and there were no supermarkets (the closest thing was Taskers in Burnley where we'd go 3 maybe 4 times a year)
Obviously non of that infrastructure exists anymore... so people have to spend money on taxi's etc.
We also had communities that seem to no longer exist.. I remember one occasion (must have been school hols) coming back from Accy market with my gran and having more shopping than usual... the bus stopped by the local pub so my gran just went in and found some friend of my grandad or my uncle and got them to carry the shopping .. I assume my grandad would have bought the bloke a pint at some point or done the same for his wife?
In the same way we didn't have a phone for ages... but our neighbours did. Not like we abused it but in an emergency etc. family would ring next door and leave a message... or we could use the phone and give them 10p
ErnieLynch
I don’t think Steve is proposing that your mother shouldn’t use taxis Cougar, as I understand it using a taxi now defines which social class someone represents.
I'm not proposing anyone shouldn't use taxi's or Costa or whatever... I'm pointing out the "working class" of traditional Labour red wall voters doesn't exist anymore.
The traditional red wall labour voting working class was an identity but that identity doesn't exist anymore as such.
There was a simple symbiotic relationship that Labour could rely upon in one direction and the "working class" could rely upon in the other direction based on that joint identity.
Tories Vs the Spice Girls
https://twitter.com/OfficialMelB/status/1578487276707143682?t=vP0epehyawd0bSa3p7JDeg&s=19
As I keep pointing out (or trying) being “working class” in those times was not based on income.
I'm not convinced it is now either TBH.
Also, I'm also confused by this idea that "working class" and "working people" are exactly the same thing. Does the rest of you think they mean the same thing?
I don't, at all, but I'm a bit dim. ( and even more dim nowadays)
Of course working class and working people aren't the same thing. Working class refers manual workers with basic education whilst working people refers to everyone who works as an employee including professionals with higher educational achievements.
In the United States in particularly the term "blue collar worker" is often used as a substitute for working class. And back in the day when there were substantial manufacturing industries in the UK the term "hourly paid worker" was often used by the media.
Another cracking column from Marina Hyde
https://twitter.com/marinahyde/status/1578627545461043200?s=21&t=dc2QGazZnwVXMyv4I0mbYA
I don’t know if you watch Marina’s Supertankskii stuff, but she’s started referring to Truss as ‘Lynn from HR’
😂
The truss bounce is pretty phenomenal
I'm wondering how low she can take the Tories
I assumed that the 30pt labour leads of last week were just a knee jerk and would fall down a bit this week
With Burns accusations, who knows !
This list looks ever more genuine too
https://twitter.com/llegrastratton/status/1578409093588451329?t=N2IQXEpl0kIfYs6HEFsUuw&s=19
I assumed that the 30pt labour leads of last week were just a knee jerk and would fall down a bit this week
No far from it, it appears to be consistent and established now.
The interesting point imo is how despite chatterati outrage of Boris Johnson's personal failures as a human being - lying, partygate, etc, how comparatively little damage it did to the Tories.
However when the cause of the problem for the Tories is policy rather than personality the damage is devastating.
And quite right too. Whilst Johnson eating birthday cake, or whatever, in defiance of the governments own restrictions was annoying it didn't cause me any outrage, unlike some I barely cared at all, it simply had no effect on the vast majority of people's lives.
However Truss/Kwarteng policies if implemented will have significant effect on people's lives. Voters appear to fully appreciate that. They are not quite as stupid as many on here like to believe. And they are not daft enough to think that partygate really mattered that much.
I would rather have the lying Johnson taking the piss than Liz Truss who probably didn't do anything significant to undermine pandemic restrictions. And judging by what the opinions polls of the last couple of weeks are saying millions agree with me.
And quite right too. Whilst Johnson eating birthday cake, or whatever, in defiance of the governments own restrictions was annoying it didn’t cause me any outrage, unlike some I barely cared at all, it simply had no effect on the vast majority of people’s lives.
However Truss/Kwarteng policies if implemented will have significant effect on people’s lives. Voters appear to fully appreciate that. They are not quite as stupid as many on here like to believe. And they are not daft enough to think that partygate really mattered that much.
Yeah, as a nurse having to prevent relatives from seeing their loved ones as they died, not being able to attend family funerals and knowing folk who had to watch their father die whilst they stood outside the ward window, I'm really stupid to think that what Johnson and his cronies did mattered.
Obviously now the Tories are costing folk money I should be outraged.
I would rather have the lying Johnson taking the piss than Liz Truss who probably didn’t do anything significant to undermine pandemic restrictions. And judging by what the opinions polls of the last couple of weeks are saying millions agree with me.
So what that indicates is the majority of the British public don't give two flying ****s so long as they're alright - odd reason to start supporting left wing parties.
Hit them in the pocket and they all want to be socialists.
Whilst Johnson eating birthday cake, or whatever
Ahh, still minimising his failings and misdemeanours. Little changes. Carry on…
Yeah, as a nurse having to prevent relatives from seeing their loved ones as they died, not being able to attend family funerals and knowing folk who had to watch their father die whilst they stood outside the ward window
Are you suggesting that none of that should have happened? All those restrictions were considered appropriate responses.
Johnson's failings to fully observe covid restrictions, which was probably not hugely dissimilar to many on here and indeed the wider population, does not in any way mean that restrictions the NHS implemented were not appropriate.
Although I fully accept that those who felt that pandemic restrictions were not justified would be particularly outraged. Certainly the anti-lockdown conspiracy theorist/Tory right-wingers were.
Carry on…
Thanks Kelvin but I don't need an invitation from you to express my opinion.
Edit: Btw I actually broke anti-lockdown restrictions on about half a dozen or so occasions when me and a near neighbour, with whom I wasn't in a "bubble" went on bike rides. I don't feel responsible for those who couldn't see their loved ones, I wasn't even initially aware that it was illegal. I also lost two friends to Covid one who I had known since the age of 7. I couldn't attend their funerals.
Ahh, still minimising his failings and misdemeanours.
Indeed
Someone in work was commenting that her Tory voting brother in law never made it to see his dad before he died & was still furious with Johnson
Are you suggesting that none of that should have happened? All those restrictions were considered appropriate responses.
Not at all. You are saying it didn't matter to you (and millions of others) if the elite didn't adhere to the rules.
So why do you (and those millions) think it's ok for rich people to ignore the law?
Which other laws do you think rich and important people should be able to ignore?
I barely cared at all, it simply had no effect on the vast majority of people’s lives.
Most law breaking has little or no effect on the vast majority of people's lives.
Should people care if a man rapes a woman?
If so, why? It has no effect on their lives?
I think Ernie has rather summed up the modern Tory (ex red wall) voters. Don't really care about standards but if they think they are losing out, be it financially or perceived losses to immigrants, people on benefits etc they suddenly get interested. They are not interested in a fairer society as long as they are ok, these are the ex Labour voters (who they voted for because they thought they would personally be better off, it wasn't for a more equal society). The Johnson Tories tapped into the percieved inequalities, BREXIT, immigrants, benefit claimants etc quite well. Truss clearly doesnt understand the dog whistle politics playbook and rather than maintaining these peoples standard of living in the crisis was seen to favour the top 1% with the 45% tax cut. She completely misread the room. The reality though was this demographic has been lied to for years about the standard of living they could expect, and they lapped it up, it's now all falling apart because the Tory lies weren't sustainable.
You are saying it didn’t matter to you (and millions of others) if the elite didn’t adhere to the rules.
No I am not saying that. I have repeatedly said that imo it was annoying, out of order, and taking the piss. Which obviously suggests that I don't think "it didn't matter".
What I am doing though, apparently like millions of others, is putting some sort of perspective on it. He got a £50 fixed penalty notice which to me seems totally appropriate. What Truss is currently attempting to do is far worse than that which is why it is being reflected in unprecedented opinion polls.
Furthermore I am particularly pleased that Johnson was Prime Minister during the pandemic and not Liz Truss who has publicly criticised Johnson's lockdown measures:
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/should-not-closed-schools-covid-liz-truss/
When asked about comments made by her competitor Rishi Sunak, who said earlier it was "wrong to scare people" with Covid messaging, Ms Truss said "we did go too far" and said she saw first hand how difficult school closures were for children.
And as you can see the other leadership contender has also criticised lockdown measures as going to far. If anything my criticism is that they didn't go far enough, or certainly not early enough.
Johnson had huge opposition from Tory MPs for his lockdown measures, at one point despite the massive Tory majority he even had to rely on Labour MPs for his measures to go through the House of Commons.
I am very pleased that Johnson was PM during the pandemic and lockdown rather than Liz Truss, I don't mind saying so. And judging by opinion polls many voters, millions in fact, agree with me that a Liz Truss premiership is even less appealing than a Boris Johnson premiership.
I think Ernie has rather summed up the modern Tory (ex red wall) voters.
That's me..... always backing the Tories.
I am working-class, I intensely dislike "wokism", and I very strongly supported leaving the EU.
For the intellectually lazy that can only mean one thing - I am a racist Tory.
What less could it possibly mean?
Edit: Sometimes I really wished that micklynch rode a bike.
From that list what do amber rudd and supermarionation truss have in common?
That’s me….. always backing the Tories.
I am working-class, I intensely dislike “wokism”, and I very strongly supported leaving the EU.
For the intellectually lazy that can only mean one thing – I am a racist Tory.
What less could it possibly mean?
I don't think he was aiming at you, he did specifically say Tory (Red Wall) voters.
What is wokeism?
What is wokeism?
Formally it has been described as 'alert to racial prejudice and discrimination' and expanded to include sexism and a variety of other isms.
I don't think it has a real meaning any more.
Everyone just uses it to describe the bits of being nice to people that they don't like.
Sorry ernie certainly not a dig at you, I don't think anyone can seriously accuse you of being a Tory, I was responding clumsily to your point about policy being the Tories downfall, the red wall voters didnt care about the optics of Johnson's behaviour and lapped up his denigration of others. Now things have started to bite they were expecting to be supported, not happening with Truss around. These voters don't care about the bigger picture as long as they are Ok. Many were once key Labour supporters.
Sorry ernie certainly not a dig at you, I don’t think anyone can seriously accuse you of being a Tory
Okay thanks but I don't know what makes me different to the average red wall voter - very little imo ... working-class, basic education, anti-woke, anti-EU. Why am I not a racist Tory?
Obviously someone like Tony Benn, or former Labour leader Michael Foot, who were as much anti-EEC/EU as me, and in fact in the case of anti-ECC even more so than me, would never be called racists. But in their defence they were professional affluent middle-class intellectuals, like red wall voters I have no such defence.
I think also a problem is many people appear to have forgotten what the term "red wall voters" actually refers to. It refers to areas of the UK were voters since well beyond living memory had voted Labour until 2019, they still managed to vote Labour in the general election 2 years earlier.
So what happened between 2017-19 that caused areas of the UK to return Tory MPs after having elected Labour MPs since the Labour Party first became a credible political force? A sudden mass change of personality caused them to become racist Tories?
These red wall voters even managed to support Labour through the Blair years, which is more than I managed to do. I returned to Labour in 2017 but, like red wall voters, became bitterly disillusioned with Labour by 2019.
Today that has dramatically changed, Labour now has an even higher lead over the Tories in the red wall areas than Labour has on average throughout the UK
https://redfieldandwiltonstrategies.com/latest-red-wall-voting-intention-3-4-october-2022/
Our latest Red Wall poll finds Labour leading the Conservatives by 38%, a staggering twenty-three points more than in our previous poll two weeks ago, and the largest lead ever achieved by any party in our Red Wall polling. Altogether, the results of our poll (with changes from 19-20 September) are as follows:
Labour 61% (+12)
Conservative 23% (-11)
Reform UK 3% (-4)
Liberal Democrat 7% (+2)
Green 4% (–)
Plaid Cymru 1% (+1)
Other 1% (–)
Labour's 38% lead over the Tories in the red wall is far higher than any national opinion poll. What's happened, have they suddenly had a mass change of personality again? Aren't they racists anymore?
Whilst Boris Johnson was PM it was far from sure that the red wall would return to Labour, now it seems a complete certainty that they will.
I probably won't though, I will probably back the Green Party, especially if Labour are certain to have a huge majority. Red wall voters are better Labour supporters than I am.
Dismiss them as only voting for their own self-interest if you like, it certainly makes a difference to the narrative that they are stupid and vote against their own interests.
But the reality is that they, fairly reasonably, felt abandoned by the Labour Party, something which Boris Johnson tapped into. The shock of Liz Truss's agenda of rewarding the rich for being rich and everyone else paying for it has been a wake-up call for them.
Ok no idea whether you are racist although you dont post as if you are. You've made it quite clear you dont vote Tory so I think it's safe to say you're not a Tory.
appear to have forgotten what the term “red wall voters” actually refers to.
Fair point it's become a generic term to describe previously Labour voters from the north who voted Tory last time around. People who voted Labour traditionally as they thought Labour was best for them personally rather than thought Labour was better for society. They showed their true beliefs when the Tories dangled their racist and divisive click bait policies in front of them.
Aren’t they racists anymore?
Course they are, always were, just historically Labour's promise to look after the incomes of the working classes trumped their racism. The Tories trumped Labour's fiscal policies (at the risk of waking Binners up Magic Grandad was far to likely to give money to people they deemed other or underserving) with the racist narrative of Brexit.
Now Liz has made it clear tax cuts aren't for the likes of them and BREXIT is done they've gone back to the party they think will most likely look after them personally. Most Labour voters are no different in their motivations than conservative voters, they will vote for whatever chimes best with their circumstances and personal vested interests. Where you start to see a difference is middle class voters where these vote Labour can afford to have principles, Tory middle class voters generally still vote in their own interests. Of course there will be many voters of all backgrounds who dont conform to my stereotypes but I think the majority do.
Caretaker being flow in due to poor health of the PM?
Aren’t they racists anymore?
Course they are, always were,
Sorted, all working-class Labour voters are racists. Why make things complicated when simple bigotry answers everything easily?
In other news it seems that the Labour lead in London is currently almost as great as the Labour lead in the red wall.
The Conservatives have slumped 37 points behind Labour in London
Out of 73 MPs in London not a single one would be Tory. It isn't going to happen when the general election eventually comes but it shows the magnitude of the problem facing the Tories with Liz Truss as PM.
It's hard to imagine her popularity increasing significantly with time.
Voters appear to fully appreciate that. They are not quite as stupid as many on here like to believe
No, they really are.
Just wait till the election.
Remember, the "red wall" swing was mostly about FPTP and the UKIP and Lib Dem collapse. Labour's vote share was pretty much unchanged from 2010 to 2019 in the red wall. It did fall from 2017 to 2019 but that was just reversion- it went 39%, 42%, 50%, 39%.
It's just, in the same period the "not labour" vote went from being split 19% lib dem 32%, to 5% lib dem 17% ukip, then 3/3/42 in 2017 (with Labour picking up slightly less votes from the lib dems and ukip, pushing them to that exceptional 50%). And then a bunch of those voters who'd moved to Labour in 2017 from UKIP and the Lib Dems, moved Tory.
When the dust all settled Labour had the exact same 39% vote share which had made the red wall seem so red and wallish.
Remember, the “red wall” swing was mostly about FPTP and the UKIP and Lib Dem collapse.
The LibDem collapse and FPTP are very important, and that helps to explain why despite Labour having a greater share of the vote in 2019 than under either Ed Miliband or Gordon Brown the Tories ended up with such a huge majority.
However the LibDem collapse had already occurred in 2017 when according to your figures the Labour vote in the red wall seats was 50%. The question is why did it fall to 39% two years later?
IMO the answer is brexit and the Corbyn factor.
The term red wall wasn't in common usage at that time but that article refers to red wall seats:
"The group has put their names to full page adverts in a number of local and regional newspapers in the north of England."
I do agree though that the slow decline of the Labour vote in the red wall seats goes back to at least 2010, after 13 years of Labour governments doing little for them and a Labour Party which took their votes for granted whilst they wooed voters outside the heartlands, disillusionment was bound to set in.
With control of both local authorities and parliamentary seats the Labour Party was often seen as "the establishment".
Sorted, all working-class Labour voters are racists.
A lot of people are racist to some level. They will be Labour voters, Tory voters and Lib Dem voters. It all depends on the priorities at the time (helped by some populism) on whether keeping out people is more important than being able to live.
Brexit was largely about keeping out people and taking back control and the financial aspect was low priority or brushed off as project fear as finances were not such an issue for people as say now.
Interesting personal stance Ernie, how much personal financial loss will the category of voter you've singled out be prepared to stomach for this ideological stance?
Brexit and the current fiscal strategy has taken hundreds of pounds a month from them. How much is it worth?
The Tories eating each other is amusing
I love that because Shaps can use Excel he's the most dangerous of all the MPs
But the sharks are circling. Even allies are unimpressed by the functioning of Downing Street so far. A serving minister said: “They’re f***wits. They think they’ve turned it around. But they don’t understand politics.
Is that just an advert for a phone? Not looked past the paywall.
As Biden proposes pardoning everyone currently in jail with a cannabis conviction in the US, Braverman contemplates making it class A
I think the Times broke the story, found more or less the same story without a paywall.
Interesting analysis in this mornings Observer of Truss and Kamikwasi's unhinged libertarian nut-jobbery
https://twitter.com/andrewrawnsley/status/1579030783180042240?s=20&t=829TQdgYhjDcR17WFXCXug
And the totally suicidal economic incoherence of it
https://twitter.com/ObserverUK/status/1579004150331092992?s=20&t=829TQdgYhjDcR17WFXCXug
The bottom line seems to be that only the most demented Ayn-Rand-worshipping, hard right nutjobs (ie: most of the cabinet, but not many outside it other than John Redwood) will support this, so they can't actually get any of this lunacy through the commons.
When Iain Duncan Smith and Nadine Dorres are saying they won't support it as its far too right wing, then you really are exploring the outer limits of the political wilderness. It's staggering that they can't see it. Or maybe they can but they just don't care
So far they've threatened to treat the top rate tax vote as a vote of confidence in their own government and had to back down when Graham Brady had a word and said they still wouldn't get it through and they'd lose their majority if they tried. Expect a lot more of that sort of thing. This whole 'mini-budget' is going to fall apart piece by bonkers piece
This whole ‘mini-budget’ is going to fall apart piece by bonkers piece
I hope you are right mate. I hope they turn on each other like rats in a sack.
If any of the more moderate ones had any principles, they would not allow the government to get this through Parliament. However, as a lot of them don't have principles and will lose their jobs at the next election, I can see them allowing through for their own short term benefit. Even though they though this Britannia Unchained nonsense is going to wreck the Country.
kelvin
Full Member
Is that just an advert for a phone? Not looked past the paywall.
Just register you get a few free reads a week
Basically saying that the there are multiple factions within the party planning for getting truss out
I am very pleased that Johnson was PM during the pandemic and lockdown rather than Liz Truss, I don’t mind saying so.
I absolutely 100% agree with you.
In other news, I'll take my dogshit sandwich on wholemeal rather than white.
I shudder to think where we'd have ended up if Liz 'its not the job of government to interfere in peoples lives' Truss was in charge during the pandemic.
Probably making Bolsonaro's Brazil look sane in comparison
Basically saying that the there are multiple factions within the party planning for getting truss out
And also changing the leadership election rules so that 80,000 senile racists can't impose another economically illiterate headcase on the country
working-class, basic education, anti-woke,
So all for prejudice and discrimination, then. Nice. Texas has a welcome mat all ready for you. And it’s a Red state, appropriately.
FWIW, I was brought up working class, never got beyond doing CSE’s at school, but I was taught to treat everyone the same, regardless of place of origin, gender, etc.
I heard something on a political podcast recently. Can't remember which one but it was about a bit of research that basically showed the right understands the left much better than the left understands the right. You can see that on this thread where lots of people seem to find it hard to understand how anyone can vote Tory. But rather than try to understand the appeal of the Tories (which is surely a pre-requisite to beating them) there is a tendency to just assume that their voters are stupid, racist, selfish etc.
Tories Vs the Spice Girls
Part two…
https://twitter.com/karlturnermp/status/1579102854933274624?s=21
"I try not to be political but in all honesty it's a flipping disgrace.
“You're talking about the bankers getting their bonuses.
"I'm in a very privileged position, I can't get up on my high horse and start saying things, but I think any person with any morals can see what's going on isn't right.
“I think we all feel just so worn out by it all and it concerns me what's going to happen. People are desperate, what is going to happen?”
working-class, basic education, anti-woke,
So all for prejudice and discrimination, then. Nice.
Because I think accusing people of racism because they say "coloured people" instead of "people of colour" is bollox that makes me prejudice? Get a grip FFS.
I am intensely opposed to all prejudices, including those based on colour, sex, race, religion, politics, sexual orientation, and class.
Some people seem to think that certain prejudices are perfectly acceptable, including on here. The obvious examples are that all working-class are racists and all Tory voters are uncaring selfish bastards.
Those are two blatant prejudices on here which on more than one occasion I have found myself arguing against. As indeed also prejudices against people's religions, although that does seem less prevalent these days.
As I have said recently, I judge people as individuals, I leave bigotry to others.
And I don't much appreciate the sanctimonious middle-class self-appointed woke police, full of their own personal prejudices, accusing working-class people of sexism and racism and telling them how to speak.
And it's not just me that it pisses off - whole swathes of the electorate are wound up by it with unfortunately very negative consequences. HTH
woke police,
There's woke police 🚨 !!?? 😳
FWIW, I was brought up working class, never got beyond doing CSE’s at school, but I was taught to treat everyone the same, regardless of place of origin, gender, etc.
What saddens me is that my parents were quite implicit that people should be treated equally and fairly, when I grew up.
It's pretty depressing to see them drift to the right as they've aged, my dad certainly way more openly homophobic and both seem to have become more racist, especially towards Travellers/ gypsies & eastern Europeans as well as South Asians etc, even though as far as I can see they have very little interaction with them.
Much of this prejudice comes from the media they consume.
Brexit certainly brought out a side to them I'd not seen/ been aware of. They bought into the vote leave/ farage propaganda & bigotry very easily
they say “coloured people” instead of “people of colour”
Not racism, just honest to goodness ignorance from those that use the former term. How hard can it be to be less offensive to those that differ from you?
I am intensely opposed to all prejudices, including those based on colour, sex, race, religion, politics, sexual orientation, and class.
So "woke" then despite your protestations to the contrary. Welcome to the caring side or were you just trolling?
There’s woke police 🚨 !!?? 😳
What does 'woke' even mean anyway? It seems so be some sort of slur made by bigots to anyone who shows an ounce of compassion about anything?
Its all going much as I thought / hoped..
truss has trashed the Tories reputation and is so incompetent that she has her party openly rebelling against her meaning she will struggle to get any policy changes thru parliament.
What does ‘woke’ even mean anyway?
It's an American import, just like "people of colour".
>So what happened between 2017-19 that caused areas of the UK to return Tory MPs after having elected Labour >MPs since the Labour Party first became a credible political force?
Corbyn
Corbyn
I'm afraid that isn't the correct answer - Corbyn happened in 2015.
The Labour vote went up in the red wall seats in 2017.
I had to look it up...
"Woke means being conscious of racial discrimination in society and other forms of oppression and injustice."
So to be anti woke, it basicaly means you do not belive in justice, and in favour of opression and are a racist.
Ok, gotcha.
they say “coloured people” instead of “people of colour”
Both sound like discrimination to me.
basicaly means you do not belive in justice, and in favour of opression and are a racist.
Yup, but surely you can tell from my posts that I don't believe in justice and that I am in favour of oppression and racism? Why the need to look it up?
I had already outed myself in the first post on this page.
So what happened between 2017-19 that caused areas of the UK to return Tory MPs after having elected Labour
<<hits buzzer>>
that hugely divisive Brexit thing?