[Closed] Jesus Christ

So, whilst this debate simmers/boils over.

Who of the non believers don't partake in christmas or easter celebrations?

Do you select cards that don't say happy christmas, which essentially say's,'happy b'day you bearded berk(Jesus) instead, they say 'happy WTF am i'm celebrating this day for, is it so i don't feel left out?'

Like wise at Easter, Happy resurrection of a fictitious character cards seem all the rage.

Imagine in thousands of years times, if all the history books and knowledge was lost. Then someone read 'lord of the rings' and decided it really did happen. Would future man kind celebrate 22nd of September or the 25 March because of their significance? would this be madness to have everyone believe this to the point of it causing wars?

Perhaps i've missed the point but i've always struggled to find the missing link from 4001BC (Oddly too on the 25th March) from the Earths creation and soon after mans creation in the form of Adam, too..the the evolution back down ladder to early primates, then bcak up the evolutionary ladder to the the form we are now(though it appears the present form is quite rapidly heading back to it's previous incarnation, that of an ape).

This all seems complex and beyond the ability of both historians which rely on scriptures(much like asking a question on here and choosing to believe it)and Science, where research and practical studies can provide evidence in form.(which on here seems to be the more difficult way to find answers)

It's all quite bonkers really.

sharki - Member

So, whilst this debate simmers/boils over.

Who of the non believers don't partake in christmas or easter celebrations?

*puts up hand*

Both easter and christmas are christian festivals pasted over pagan ones anyway

Oooh, old chestnuts!

The thing is, Christmas for many (most?) people isn't a religious festival except by lip service any more. It's a national holiday, I don't need to believe in magic sky fairies in order to have a few days off work and buy gifts for people I like.

By that argument, we should be looking at renaming the days of the week, months of the year, etc. Thor's day? What if I don't believe in Norse thunder gods?

Perhaps i've missed the point but i've always struggled to find the missing link

Ah, but Creationists don't believe in Evolution.

Christmas & Easter - have to admit to using the terms as indicators within the year.

Christmas - prefer to think the christians nicked that one from the good guys. It's a great time of year for a family knees up so use it as that as it's a national holiday but don't send christmas cards. Easter passes me by apart from the fact that the national holiday based upon it moves around which I find rather inconvenient.

My own question - who abstains from going to weddings/christenings/funerals held in religious locations? Personally never go to christenings, but whilst always coming out of a church saying I'll never go back in one - come the next wedding or funeral I always find myself back in there mouth closed, head unbowed muttering "never again", again.

I tend not to send cards irrespective. I don't see the point in sending a card to everyone I've ever met, and spending hours agonising over "well, if I send one to x, I'll have to send one to y" politics.

I'll send a card to people I've not seen in ages perhaps, distant friends who I can't practically pop by and say hello. Where possible though, I'll try and get in touch with people through non-Hallmark methods, it's a bit more personal and I'd like to think means more.

Jesus Christ is an excellent expletive. Thats about it really.

who abstains from going to weddings/christenings/funerals held in religious locations?

Tricky subject, and a good question.

I can't abstain on religious grounds if I'm not religious; a church then becomes just a nice building. I can't be doing with all the pomp and scraping, but for a wedding for a friend, if it's what they want then I'll deal with it for their benefit.

I agreed years ago, against my better judgement, to be godfather for a friend's new kid. At the Christening I was front and centre and found the entire ceremony deeply unstettling and it made me [i]very [/i]uncomfortable.

Since then, the 'friend' only ever been in touch when he wants something, usually to give me grief. I got a text out of the blue whilst on holiday last year, after not hearing from him for about a year previously, telling me "my presense is required" and demanding that I attend her confirmation; I finally saw my arse over the whole thing and refused.

I guess that was in part down to his crappy attitude over a prolonged period of time, and in part because it's a ceremony that I'm fundementally opposed to. Guess I'm older and bolshier these days, but it's not a mistake I'll be making again.

geminafantasy - go back and re-read the thread. I dont recall 'defending my beliefs' anywhere, I've merely asked (unsuccesfully) not to be insulted. Do you honestly think the vast majority of Christians believe the Earth is less than 7000 years old? That God created it all in 7 days? I think you're getting mixed up with creationists. I personally believe in some of the tenets of Christianity (the wooly, be good to one another bits, mainly), but am more than capable of accepting science and rationalism as well. Like I said initially, threads like this are a bit like shooting fish in a barrel. Still, if it makes you feel better about yourself, crack on.

To be fair, Christianity would have a lot more credibility if it could manage to agree amongst itself what it believes. Rather than, y'know, blowing each other up for worshipping god in a slightly different way.

As an aside, the seven day thing - isn't that a fundemental pillar of Christian faith? I'm happy to be educated if I'm wrong, but I thought that was a pretty widely held belief amongst Christianity.

"And on the first day he created light and air and fish and jam and soup and potatoes and haircuts and arguements and small things and rabbits? and people with noses and jam... More jam perhaps, and soot and flies and tobogany and showers and toasters and grandmothers and, uh... Belgium."

There's the rub.

I personally believe in some of the tenets of Christianity (the wooly, be good to one another bits, mainly), but am more than capable of accepting science and rationalism as well.

How can you do this? I'm interested as the two are completely opposed.

If you want to be nice to people I fail to see what a magic friend brings to the party? Surely you either believe in a sapient creator or you don't? If you do then how can you also subscribe to the rational?

If your faith merely consists of believing that you should be nice to people, you can probably do without god. From what I understand of the bible god is more about the wrath and smiting thing.

He loves a good smite, god.

TandemJeremy - Member

[b]"Ernie - I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate - why should religious be any different? "[/b]

I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my earlier answer

[b]"I can't see an answer to this - sorry"[/b]

Let me help you then......

ernie_lynch - Member

Because whether people choose to go to church on a Sunday, or mosque/synagogue on a Saturday, or temple on whatever day, or whether they choose to pray in their homes, or believe in whatever they choose to believe, does not in any way whatsoever, bother or affect me.

The way they vote does.

There is a time to take the piss, and a time not to take the piss.

I don't take the piss over a whole multitude of issues. They include, other people's religion and culture.

It's ok to take the piss over politics, but not religion?

Why? How are they different? Why is religion special?

You guys sound like you're "farting in your own shit" - to coin a phrase.
🙂

As an aside, the seven day thing - isn't that a fundemental pillar of Christian faith?

Ta Ernie - so religion is something special that requires / has special status?

barnsleymitch - Member

geminafantasy - go back and re-read the thread. I dont recall 'defending my beliefs' anywhere, I've merely asked (unsuccesfully) not to be insulted.

I am not sure where you have been insulted. Thats you personally being insulted. I certainly haven't done although I was accused of it.

"The most beautiful and most profound experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead. To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling is at the center of true religiousness.
( Albert Einstein - The Merging of Spirit and Science)"
My personal belief is that science and faith can co-exist. The bible was written a looong time ago, by various authors, and shouldnt be seen as some kind of instruction manual. It may have been written in part as a way of understanding the mechanics of the universe, parts of it would have had an element of folk lore, almost certainly parts of it were stolen from older, pre-established religions. Why do you presume that if a person professes a belief in faith that this precludes an unwillingness to also believe in scientific fact? I'm a multi-faceted person, I have a lot going in my life, and my faith / religion is only one part of all this.

He also said

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.
-- Albert Einstein, 1954, from Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas and Banesh Hoffman, Princeton University Press

Do you honestly think the vast majority of Christians believe the Earth is less than 7000 years old? That God created it all in 7 days? I think you're getting mixed up with creationists. [b]I personally believe in some of the tenets of Christianity (the wooly, be good to one another bits, mainly)[/b], but am more than capable of accepting science and rationalism as well.

And this is the bit that annoys me about religion (note, I've not said the religious). The woolly, be good to one another bits appearing in religious teachings are the being a good human being bits and I see them as not exclusively religious. When did religion hijack morality? What you are now professing to believe (and are calling your christian faith) are the basics of being a good human being regardless of belief in god. I would argue that those of us that can hold these values in esteem but do so without the big sticks of an all seeing god and hell and damnation (with Jesus somewhere in the picture holding your hand to help you choose the right path) are the lucky ones.

I really do find it interesting that those that profess to religious faith can happily pick and choose which bits to run with and which to ignore without feeling slightly silly. Help me understand.

Right, so it would be preferable to you if I came on here preaching hell fire and damnation? How many times do I have to say I dont have a problem with your views? How many examples can you find on this thread of Christians 'ramming their beliefs down your throat'? My point has always been that threads such as this are just an excuse to belittle those who dont exclusively share your views. And TJ, asserting that I should be ridiculed for holding ridiculous views, that I deserve to have 'the piss taken from me' and that I should 'keep quiet or face the ridicule' are all, in my opinion, insults.

No one has ever seen electricity, no one has ever seen an atom, but apparently these things exist. God might exist.

Just let people believe what they want.

barnsleymitch - they were not aimed at you. simple as. Not personal insults. read them in the context.

I did not say " I will ridicule barnsleymitch for his ridiculous views". I said if you espouse ridiculous views then expect ridicule

Stop looking for insults and read as it is written.

only the most fundamental view would take it to mean a week as we see it. Rather, given that these were stories

So if those were stories, by extension the rest of the book is as well?

Either it's the word of god or it isn't. If it's a book of parables, fine, but you can't then take the rest of it as fact. Jesus rising from the dead? Well, it's just a story, he probably had 'flu.

Unless you're cherry-picking for convenience, of course.

yeti guy - Member
I find this thread hugely offensive, but appreciate everyone has their own opinions. that is one of the many redeeming qualities of Jesus, is that he allowed people to be free thinking.

Jesus to me is - My friend and saviour

Well put, yeti guy.

My faith is my own, others can believe what they like. I don't care what you believe, who you worship, what colour you are, whether you sleep with someone of your own sex or anything else.

I will tell you what I believe if you ask me in person. I will not try to make you believe what I believe - only to try to be a good example (which I struggle with).

I have a lot of problems with various aspects of the Church (note the capital C), but that's a different post.

Live and let live.

JulianA > Whilst I don't share your faith, I applaud your attitude. Well said.

And with those two posts, let us end this thread please.

Just when an interesting discussion was threatening to break out?

No, just as common sense and tolerance had broken out! 🙂

i'd like to know why we're concentrating on christianity (note small "c") and not the other religions found within our solar system.

look at the state of Iran. a people oppressed using the thin viel of religious righteousness.

why the f*ck should we tolerate something that disadvantageously affects the lives of so many women?

why should we accept beliefs that cause suffering to many African women through the practice of circumcision?

why should we accept the negative influence of religions upon politics and subsequently the people governed by those politics?

why should we put up with schools that tell their students lies based upon a book.

**** me... i read a book once; goldilocks and the three bears. doesn't make it true, does it?, just because it's been written down and i've gone to the trouble of reading it.

no, i don't celebrate christmas. i haven't bought presents for loved ones at christmas for the past few years.

i do like easter as it means i can buy lots of cheap choclit. and for some reason i find easter egg choclit tastes different to normal bars of the same stuff.

i object to the fact that i'm told when to take a break from work (ok, technically this doesn't currently affect me, but it used to) because of a supposed death of a supposed character.

and food for thought....

was mary artificially inseminated by aliens?

It'll pass, I'm sure. (-:

I'd just like to stick my head above the parapet and declare myself to be a believer. Come and have a pop if you like, I think my faith's big enough to take it.

I should also point out that I am expressing my personal view on a relevant thread. I am not seeking converts or ramming my faith down anyone's throat.

yeti guy - Member

...............

Jesus to me is - My friend and saviour

along with Julian, could you please enlighten me/us as to how he is your friend and saviour? i'm serious and will not take the piss/ridicule your answer. i'm just interested as to how this can/could be as it is something i've often heard, but never understood/had explained to me.

I am not seeking [b]convert[/b]s

You better not be; you'll have no luck there sunshine! 😉

"Stop looking for insults and read as it is written."
Oh right TJ, I must have been mistaken when I took the 'you' and 'yours' bits personally then. Silly me...

so religion is something special that requires / has special status?

Special status ? What are you talking about.......you only show respect towards people when it concerns things which have a "special status" ?

Really, this is like talking to a bunch of silly argumentative kids.

Let me spell it out in simple terms for you ........

Religion and politics are clearly [i]not[/i] the same thing. For example....... if Mr Patel in the shop down the road has a picture of a long-haired guru or some multi-armed deity, I feel absolutely no urge whatsoever to ridicule him, make a derogative comment, or in any way challenge him.

In fact, I feel a very strong obligation to show him the respect which he undoubtedly deserves towards his beliefs. Indeed if I made any comment at all, it would be motivated by a genuine interest in his beliefs.

If however, Mr Patel had a "Vote Conservative" poster on his shop window, I might well feel a need to challenge him and express some disapproval towards his political views.

Actually this isn't entirely a hypothetical situation. There are Asian shops down my manor that have Hindu artefacts behind their counters, I did on one occasion ask who the guru was. And in the 2005 general election, one Asian shop near me had a poster of Malcolm Wicks, the former Labour minister with whom I fell out over the Iraq war. I did challenge the shopkeeper, pointing out Wick's warmongering record.

There is clearly a difference between religion and politics.

.

BTW TJ, RE : [i]"the reason this is offensive is it is saying that its because of Jesus people can be free thinking."[/i]

You have to be some sort of **** to be offended because someone has told you that God has made you "freethinking".

To be serious for a moment, I think there are several reasons why people are currently more openly questioning and mocking of religious orthodoxy than they were even a few years ago.

Religion has often been used by the ruling classes in many societies as a means of control and oppression.
In the Western world, this has slowly been changing since the Enlightenment, but even if the formal link between religion and state has been abandoned many years ago in favour of a notional secularism, it is only now that the majority, the non-religious, feel able to openly treat religious belief/opinion the same as they would any other aspect of non-rational speculative thought.
Basically, people will mock the religious because they now can, without fear of oppression, ostracism or death. It's human nature to question, and within that spectrum of questioning behaviour will be mockery and abuse - it's what we do as a species.

Secondly, as Western orthodox Christian theology looses its grip on the majority of the European population, it throws our own increasing secularism into ever sharper contrast to those societies where religious belief still holds sway: We can see where we've come from and the majority of us have no wish to go back there.

As someone who was brought up in a Catholic household (albeit with a strongly atheist father, whose beliefs I shared from childhood) and who attended Catholic educational establishments until the age of 18, the questioning (and yes, occasional mockery) of religious belief is more in the way of a release than an attack. I'm sorry if mockery offends, but it's part of life in a secular society that promotes religious and (non-religious) tolerance.

nuff said!

I met Jesus once, he was on the MRT in Bangkok, I think he was German, and had come back to earth to cleanse Bangkok of it's vice's or some such story.

He was going up to couples on the MRT, forgiegn and local and speaking to them about the ten commandments. I missed my stop because I was too busy watching his actions.

He made me break the 11th Commandment - Thou shalt not be late to meeting ones wife for her birthday lunch.

I feel a very strong obligation to show him the respect which he undoubtedly deserves towards his beliefs. Indeed if I made any comment at all, it would be motivated by a genuine interest in his beliefs.

If however, Mr Patel had a "Vote Conservative" poster on his shop window, I might well feel a need to challenge him and express some disapproval towards his political views.

You've just explained that [i]you [/i]believe that there's a difference, which is fair enough, but haven't explained [i]why. [/i]

Why's it ok to confront someone on their political beliefs, but not their religious beliefs? What's the difference?

If the first part is too hard, let's look at the second; why do you feel it's acceptable to challenge someone's political beliefs? What right have you to do that? Why do you think you know better?

Oh here we go again. Let C&P the same thing one more time :

[i]Because whether people choose to go to church on a Sunday, or mosque/synagogue on a Saturday, or temple on whatever day, or whether they choose to pray in their homes, or believe in whatever they choose to believe, does not in any way whatsoever, bother or affect me.

The way they vote does.[/i]

Barneley mitch - I have had a reread - the "you" where I used it was intended as the general case. of a person - would have been beter written a " if a person...then they" or " if one......." Only in one post that I could see and I would have thought the context was clear that it was the general you not specific

Seriously - not intended as aimed at you personal but at people in general.

ernie
what do you do when someone say that I can or cant do this because of religion?

If people keep it to themselves fine - if they want me to behave in certain ways because of their beliefs then its not OK.

If they adopt a position of moral superiority because of their beliefs should I let it pass? This is why I get offended by the statement from yeti guy - because he is religious he is morally superior to me?

The way they vote does.

Right. So the 9/11 attack, the London tube bombings, the riots in Ireland, they had nothing to do with religion at all?

People have never withheld medical treatment to their children because of religious beliefs? Or covered up institutional child abuse, dragged me out of bed of a sunday morning, told teenage girls not to use condoms, persecuted homosexuals for years... I could go on but that's not constructive.

Wow, you're right, one man's vote is way more important. Far better to be able to have an illusion that you've any say in which bunch of corrupt shysters is better equipped to run the country than the others.

brilliant ernie... you really should have entered politics.

you have consistently failed to answer the question posed to you.

why should you "... feel a very strong obligation to show him the respect which he undoubtedly deserves towards his beliefs."...?

that simply doesn't make sense. if he were to hang a picture of your favoured political hero, would you "feel a very strong obligation to show him the respect which he undoubtedly deserves towards his [political] beliefs."?

why should you respect someone for having a belief in god, but not in any other aspect of their lives?

i'm not holding my breath that you'll give a straight answer to this without re-posting/quoting something that you've already written and where we're meant to cleary understand where you stand on the subject without us subjectively reading between the lines.

The point I'm trying to make there is,

You seem to be alluding that religion is a personal and private thing, in comparison to politics which affects other people. This is patently nonsense. If it were true, there'd be no such thing as organised religion.