Forum menu
should the believers not be trying to convert the rest of us? are they not commanded' to do that?
Nah, the commandments are only stories, remember.
No really, this just like talking to a bunch of silly argumentative kids who pretend that they don't understand what the grown-up is talking about.
And of course they have to enter the realms of infantile absurdity by making extreme and ridiculous statements.
Yes, yes, yes, we should jump down peoples throats at the merest hint that they might have any religious views because of 9/11, the Spanish Inquisition, etc, etc, etc, etc
Well done..............you win
🙄
should the believers not be trying to convert the rest of us? are they not commanded' to do that?
I don't know if Dawkins has commanded it yet or not, but it certainly feels like it sometimes on here.
Although we don't have imaginary chums who live in the sky or what ever it is..
one of the many redeeming qualities of Jesus, is that he allowed people to be free thinking.
What a daft thing to say.
Was there no free thinking before jesus?
Is it only because of him that I have freedom of thought today?
edit: p.s. I don't doubt that the bible and the church have [u]massively[/u] affected [i]how[/i] we think about things but that's not the same as allowing free thinking - in fact you could accuse the church of restricting thinking over time.
along with Julian, could you please enlighten me/us as to how he is your friend and saviour?
MrsJulianA and I have been through some very hard times (bit of a tough one right now because of illness) but we know we'll get through - we have faith.
We don't go to church very often - URC when we do, which is where we were married - but it doesn't matter: it's what you believe. We find beauty in God's creation wherever we go: Micheldever Woods this afternoon or Greece last week.
No sermon intended. And I should definitely try to be a better example of a Christian.
Well, no.
You've come out with twaddle, you've had questions posed that you're unable to field, and then you've resorted to getting angry and abusive because that's the only option left to you.
And then you wonder why people have no respect for religion.
I might well be guilty of exaggerating or playing devil's advocate to demonstrate a point, but ok, let's play that game. You're a big mature adult, I'm a child. Explain it to me.
ernie, you've not answered anything other than thrown undirected insults and not answer the question as to why religion deserves respect.
if i/we've won, its a very shallow victory. much like if your 'opponent' doens't turn up to the game.
i'm not looking to win, i'm wanting to know why you won't answer TJ or any other question directed at you.
Julian, sorry - "URC"??
JulianA - Member"along with Julian, could you please enlighten me/us as to how he is your friend and saviour?"
MrsJulianA and I have been through some very hard times (bit of a tough one right now because of illness) but we know we'll get through - we have faith.
We don't go to church very often - URC when we do, which is where we were married - but it doesn't matter: it's what you believe. We find beauty in God's creation wherever we go: Micheldever Woods this afternoon or Greece last week.
No sermon intended. And I should definitely try to be a better example of a Christian.
you've not answered anything.
why is he your saviour? what did you do/were you doing that you needed saving from?
how is he your friend?
what did you do/were you doing that you needed saving from?
With respect, I'm not sure that's important, or any of our business.
ok, fair do's, but why then is Jesus a saviour in his life?
and how does faith help you survive illness...? ultimately, with or without faith, you die.
So if those were stories, by extension the rest of the book is as well?
Well yes. I think most believers would consider the Bible as being inspired by God but written down by humans with all that that entails. IIRC the set of writings that were considered sufficiently sacred in some way to constitute our 'Bible' was only put together 4th or 5th century. There are others that some folks also take into account e.g. the set of writings in the 'apocrypha' which you will also sometime see. The difficulty as always is making sense of it. As has been said already it wasn't written as an instruction manual
ernie, you've not answered anything other than thrown undirected insults
Well there you go.
if i/we've won, its a very shallow victory. much like if your 'opponent' doens't turn up to the game.
Don't look at it like that..............see it as a stunning victory !
After all, I clearly had strong views. But because of the sheer quality of your argument, I was reduced to throwing "undirected insults".
Well done you.
ultimately, with or without faith, you die.
Well yes, ultimately, we all die. But there's a good argument for faith in the 'ilness' situation; it's essentially an extension of the placebo effect, you believe you're going to get better so you do.
The difficulty as always is making sense of it. As has been said already it wasn't written as an instruction manual
Yeah, I appreciate this. It's kinda where I was going with it; if it's ambiguous, how can you take it as (pardon the pun) gospel? And if you accept that the bible is fallible, how can we treat it as proof of anything?
(hey, I'm debating against the atheists, I'm an equal opportunities argumentalist!!)
I think vast truckloads of psychedelic drugs should be compulsory...
This will undoubtedly help people to 'make sense of things'
AMEN
@ Cougar... yes, i'm aware of the placebo effect. oh, and URC is a united reformed church.
@ ernie, your capitulation still doesn't answer what has been asked of you by myself or others.
i really don't like quoting people as it makes me appear anal, but:
No really, this just like talking to a bunch of silly argumentative kids who pretend that they don't understand what the grown-up is talking about.
your gambit suggests that you are above the rest of those who do not agree with you. this could be construed as insulting those you are addressing.
what is the grown-up talking about?
as i understand it you are considerably more 'grown up' (in years, at least) than many users of this forum. would you like to enlighten us 'kids' as to what you mean?
You see, this is what fascinates me about religion. I can appreciate the art, music, buildings etc that religion has given the world, a lot of it is truly incredible.
However it's the actual [b]belief[/b] that I struggle with. There are people on here (me included) who are genuinely intersted in WHY you believe, what it gives you, why you believe in God rather than Allah/Buddha/Ammon-Ra/Thor (etc etc) and how you reconcile the bits of the Bible that are obviously allegorical with the bits that are supposed to be true. Is the Bible a moral compass for you? In other words, without it, would you rape, pillage and kill?
I've asked these questions over the years to many different people, out of real curiousity, seeking to understand, and all that gets thrown back is confused, woolly minded stuff or preaching or insults.
I used to ask a (Christian) friend at school about it and eventually he would invariably resort to one of several stock phrases:
"We're not supposed to question God's magnificence"
"God moves in mysterious ways"
"We're not meant to understand...."
"You don't believe so you can't understand"
Cougar - Member
Julian, sorry - "URC"??
United Reformed Chuch
Cougar - Memberwhat did you do/were you doing that you needed saving from?
With respect, I'm not sure that's important, or any of our business.
Thank you, Cougar.
@Alpin - Sorry, that wasn't really an answer, was it? But it was an attempt at one.
Having someone to intercede for you when you mess up is so good. And I do mess up - a lot.
Sorry if this hasn't really explained - very hard for me to put into words (but it shouldn't be - it just is: lots of reasons why)
URC is a united reformed church.
Ah right, gotcha. Ta. I'll confess I don't know exactly what that means...! Could you perhaps give me a brief overview of what that stands for? (not trolling, genuine question, the different versions confuse me)
Cougar - MemberURC is United Reformed Church.
Ah right, gotcha. Ta. I'll confess I don't know exactly what that means...! Could you perhaps give me a brief overview of what that stands for? (not trolling, genuine question, the different versions confuse me)
Non-conformist - not Catholic or Anglican.
Sorry, have to go out for a walk - back in a bit.
why you believe in God rather than Allah/Buddha/Ammon-Ra/Thor
At the risk of derailing this, one thing I always wondered; assuming some 'god' exists, where would you stand if one of the other major religions was right? Eg, you spend your entire life following a Christian religion, praying, uh, religiously, etc; then get to the final judgement and find yourself face-to-face with Allah. You're in -more- trouble than I am, no? You've spent your life worshipping a false god, I wasn't a believer but at least I rejected all the wrong ones. Doesn't that put me ahead on points?
Playing the odds, even if you believe, by that argument atheism is probably the safest bet.
If I have learnt nothing else from this thread I learned who'd I'd like to meet to shoot the breeze over such things (believers and non believers) and those who strungle to debate with penache and respect.
URC = Calvinism?
Interesting reading, cheers. Should've thought to JFGI.
In fact - I'm gonna quit this thread. It's hard for me to articulate what I think and feel on a web forum. As I said, I'm not a good example of a Christian. You will have to judge as you find.
I dislike religious extremists of any faith as much as I dislike any other extremist - I should just like to live and let live, whoever you are. I shan't try to kill you: please don't try to kill me.
I'm not a good example of a Christian.
You're not a good example of a Christian in the same way that I'm not a good example of a Vegetarian. That's not necessarily a bad thing.
Hey, there's an idea. In the interests of minority-bashing, I'm happy to be cross-examined if anyone feels the need to return the favour.
If I have learnt nothing else from this thread I learned who'd I'd like to meet to shoot the breeze over such things (believers and non believers) and those who strungle to debate with penache and respect.
Yeah, I'd second that.
i too, am out.
going round in circles. ernie has buggered off/is hiding and i've 'won'.
And if you accept that the bible is fallible, how can we treat it as proof of anything?
I'm not sure that it is meant to be proof of something in a scientific way. It can be almost impossible to separate the allegorical from the commands passed down from the stuff that has to be interpreted based on the time the documents were written. The fact that so many wackos can get up on tv and spout outrageous stuff based on scripture is proof of that. The rest of us have to read, listen to others and make the best sense of it that we can based on everything in our lives, our experience and our eduction. It's a rather imperfect mix really
Julian, you are a very good example of a Christian, compared to those who are so sure and so quick to answer. As an atheist myself, you're the kind of Christian that is all too rare; fallible, but sticking in there.
fallible, but sticking in there.
+1 tx for chipping in
Tips cap to JulianA.
Hope you get through whatever challenges you are currently facing.
maybe it's worth an incredibly brief summary of what evangelical Christians actually believe. I'm not expecting this will change any minds but might be informative none the less.
God made everything out of nothing (Genesis 1), He made man (male and female namely Adam and Eve) in His image, and God saw that everything He made was perfect and good.
Satan tempted Adam and Eve to sin by disobeying God and all creation fell from a state of perfection. All that is bad in the world today has its root in the fall. All mankind from Adam and Eve onwards inherit Adam's sinful nature (Romans 3:23). Because God is holy and perfect He cannot tolerate any sin in His presence. Sin requires God's punishment. So the principle problem is that God is holy and man is not.
The whole Bible and the central message of Christianity is how God provides a solution to this problem in the person and work of Jesus Christ, the son of God.
Jesus was sent to earth, born a man (fully man and fully God), and lived a perfect life never sinning. Jesus was crucified on the cross and dying took upon himself the punishment that we deserve (Romans 3:25). God raised him from the dead on the third day (Easter) and Jesus is now in heaven.
It is faith in Jesus as the only way of salvation that provides forgiveness of sins and makes Christians holy in eyes of God. One of the key distinctions of Christianity is that salvation cannot be attained by works (you cannot earn or buy your way into heaven), but only faith in Jesus Christ.
When a person becomes a Christian, they receive a new nature so they want to please God. Christians are not perfect but they should show signs that God is at work in their lives. Christians are motivated to live Godly lives out of thankfulness to God. It is through Jesus that Christians have access to God though prayer and the Bible.
I expect some of you will find this to be absolute nonsense, which is the way it has always been since Jesus' time on earth. Most in his day thought he was a nutter even with the miracles. If Jesus wasn't the son of God, then all this is a waste of time. But if the Bible is true about Jesus then he is the only way to God.
Logic or reason will never convince a person to become a Christian. It takes a work of God to change a man's heart. The most compelling argument for Christianity is the changed life of a Christian. I have seen the abundant kindness and transforming power of Jesus Christ in my own life. I don't need more convincing than that.
I know I said that I was out of here, but
a) great post, infradig
and
b) thanks guys.
Can we debate (positively!) other faiths another night when I'm not completely wiped? There's a lot of mileage there too...
Feel like I've come in just as everyone was leaving, but for Alpin, crazy-legs and others:
My belief in Jesus is one that I can't prove, and like JulianA have some difficulty in articulating in a written form. I know that the presence of God cannot currently be proven in a way modern science would deem acceptable, but I'm not concerned with the how, or even perhaps the why. I accept the possibility of ridicule for what I believe, as Jesus did, though I would not seek to ridicule others for their (non)/belief. However, I feel an inbuilt compulsion for us to worship [i]something[/i] and that has been the case for many thousands of years. For some it'll be money, material goods, wife, girlfriend, boyfriend, children. For others, Jesus, Allah, Buddha etc. For me it's Jesus.
Having faith in something is difficult to describe. It is a gift that finds you perhaps when you are not looking for it. Jesus is my friend and saviour because of the things he taught us 2000 years ago that seem (to me) to still be relevant today: The ethical values we should have for ourselves, others and the world around us. For love, compassion and community. For giving me hope in times of despair, for sharing in my times of joy and for giving me the courage to type these words.
Ian
Very well put, Ian.
Well I shall try not to be offensive but I have a real issue with this
the things he taught us 2000 years ago that seem (to me) to still be relevant today: The ethical values we should have for ourselves, others and the world around us. For love, compassion and community
I have ethical values but mine do not come from Christianity. I find this attitude that you need to be Christian to be moral and that morality comes from Christianity patronising at best and offensive at worst.
There is so much immoral behaviour in organised religion - from the hoarding of wealth in the churches to the sectarianism in Northern Ireland to the hatreds in the middle east.
So god, (an old beardy bloke)creator of everything, created Adam in his own image(early 20's, cleanly shaved)who then created Eve from one of his(Adams) rib, they planted out a garden and had 3 kids. Mean while God created an angel, who in turn created Satan, Satan got bored and tricked eve or Adam into eating the forbidden fruit.
Years past and after an ice age and various other timelines, man began to walk the earth again god decided to place Jesus on earth as a baby, to grow up as an example of pure goodness.
Jesus went about his life doing good and helping others, along the way he learnt he didn't have a real dad and his mother told him about the angels, kings and sheep in a stable, etc.. And so he started telling people his ole man was god. Now! the Romans weren't too happy about this so he was captured and sentenced to death by crucifixion. For three days he hung there.
God was a little pi$$ed off now, jesus was doing a god job as gods PA but without jesus spouting off about god this, god that, it was feared he would be forgotton, so with the power that god has, he resurrected Jesus so say, 'ooo look at me, look what i can do' and prove that he is god.
Soon after, 'pop' and in a flash of white light, Jesus gets hoovered up into the skies to form a star.
Fast forward to modern times, people still have this faith that if they are good people, good will come of them and safe passage into the heavens will be there, however they can get away with being a little bad, so long as they say sorry through gods PA the local vicar, bit of a get out clause.
With your belief in god, and that Jesus was 'the' proof of god's existence, you that believe, feel good, just from having that belief and the faith in the what you believe, the Christian community gives you love and strength to get through the bad times, the bad times caused by Satans trick on Adam an Eve.
Don't you think that god made a monumental FU when he created a less then perfect angel(Lucifer)?
You put your faith in someone who didn't make proto types,didn't test them, he just rush in and threw substandard products out there into the world and then go whoops! i'll deal with that later, my bad..
He's no better than fruit and i don't see to many people worshipping him.
What's the law on this TJ, surely he's not complied to the consumers rights.
Gods intentions may of been good, but if he worked in a bike shop and didn't build your wheels properly you'd not go back to him for another one.
For that reason, I'm out!
TJ - where do your ethical values come from?
Someone once said that religion is man's attempt to reach God whereas being a Christian is all about accepting God reaching out to man.
Religion under mans control has indeed lead to immorality and hatred but I would say that this is the complete opposite of what's on God's heart. Jesus Christ as God's son came to provide a way back to God.
Most genuine Christians would not say you have to be a Christian to have ethical or morale values, however, in having a faith and belief in Jesus these values become a given.
If you can, try and separate those who have a personal love and faith in Jesus from Religion.
I hope this helps.
[img] 
[/img]
Most genuine Christians would not say you have to be a Christian to have ethical or morale values
And you don't see why the other 70% of us might take exception to that? You're sitting there saying I don't have any ethical or moral values.
If you can, try and separate those who have a personal love and faith in Jesus from Religion.
You're going to have to expand on that. "I love Jesus, but I'm not religious"?