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Coyote - that is exactly my position. Keep it in private and you can do as you wish. Bring it in to the public domain then it is free to be treated in the same way as any other belief.
I do not attack the individual nor does that quote say that. I attack the religion not the person.
Ernie - I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate - why should religious be any differnt?
crazy-legs - MemberI think I know where TJ is coming from although he's expressed himself in about the most argumentative way possible!
Who me?
Ernie - I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate - why should religious be any differnt?
"I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my earlier answer"
Your intolerance and bigotry surprise me, they really do.
Put very simply, party politics usually involves one section of society being given a preference over another. The same can be said of all major organised religions. There is a lot of self interest there and debate and discussion is needed to try and maintain a balance. You only have to look at PMQs to see that childish piss taking passes as an accepted form of discussion in this fair country.
However I fail to see why, if an individual says that they believe in God, Allah, Buddha, Krishna and that they draw comfort from their beliefs, you feel that they should be subjected to ridicule and persecution.
Drawing comfort from religion is just as ludicrous as drawing comfort from a belief in faries.
It's all nonsense and not only that it's arrogance is breathtaking.
It's just not true and that's a simple and undeniable fact. I pity the religious.
joolsburger - you decribe religion as having 'breathtaking arrogance' in the same sentence as stating that 'drawing comfort from religion is ludicrous'. You dont really do irony, do you?
Semantics is all you've got though isn't it? It would be ironic if there was a god, and there isn't. Also my full statement was not as you quoted.
Yeah sorry joolsburger, I forgot to put the 'it's all nonsense' bit in. I simply find your assertions 'breathtakingly arrogant'. It's surely up to the individual concerned where they find comfort, and none of your concern, or am I just getting caught up in semantics? And regarding some of the posts on here claiming that religious people feel they should be protected or their views should be in some way 'off limits', what a crock of s**t. The point I've been trying to make all along is feel free to criticise or debate religion all you like - just try and refrain from the insults, etc. Clear enough for you?
It is up to people to believe what they want and it's up to me to feel free to ridicule them for it. I don't think I've insulted anyone (yet) just drawn a valid comparison between god and a fairy.
"Drawing comfort from religion is just as ludicrous as drawing comfort from a belief in faries.
It's all nonsense and not only that it's arrogance is breathtaking.
It's just not true and that's a simple and undeniable fact. I pity the religious."
Thought I'd put the whole lot in, in case you accused me of misquouting you again. Are you really not able to recognise that this could be seen as insulting?
So there is some proof then? You have facts and evidence at your disposal that prove the existence of a supreme being?
What's insulting is that the religious have gotten away with it for this long. It's about time their "beliefs" were sent the way of the dodo.
Could you direct me to where I stated I could give you 'proof' of the existence of God? I merely asked people to refrain from being patronising and insulting, something you are clearly struggling with.
Gotta love the live and let live attitude of the more evangelical atheists on this thread.
A lot of the arguments seem to talk about imposition of one belief system over another. Interesting to see which direction the hate is coming from.
It's about time their "beliefs" were sent the way of the dodo.
Well you get out there on your crusade to achieve that joolsburger.
........I'm sure you'll have much more success than Stalin or Mao Zedong ever had.
I mean, really, what sort of society tolerates that sort of nonsense ?
"What's insulting is that the religious have gotten away with it for this long."
Thought I'd stumbled into an episode of ScoobyDoo. Bet it was the caretaker that done it!
The derision is quite deliberate, I'm not struggling with it at all.
Please feel free, as religious people do, to act offended and make out in some way that it's the Atheists that are intolerant.
I have nothing against people but their unfounded beliefs are something completely different.
I'm not 'feeling free' to 'act offended as religious people do', just feeling offended as people do. Not too difficult for you?
Well done on bringing Stalin into it. What would you bible thumpers do without him...
OK well do that then. Or in line with Christian beliefs you could forgive me.
Well done on bringing Stalin into it
Oh I see, you feel uncomfortable when forced to see the logical conclusion of religious intolerance ?
Let's all pretend that we can be intolerant of religious beliefs ........without there being any nasty consequences.
Not my research, but nicked from some bloke who calls himself "Soar with the eagles":
Was Mary a virgin? Well of course she was. The old Aramaic word that was translated into a Greek word and then to Latin and finally to English as "virgin" meant a young married woman who hasn't had a child yet. Although some scholars believe that Jesus had brothers and sisters, they agree that he was, if not an only, an oldest. Mary had no child, she was a virgin in Aramaic terms, when she conceived Jesus.
Let's all pretend that we can be intolerant of [b][i]others'[/i][/b] beliefs ........without there being any nasty consequences to worry about, eh ?
fixed it for you
Although it could be argued by anyone with a solid grasp of Stalin's actions that in order to consolidate his powerbase any large political and social organisations opposed to him were for the chop and the church, in his mind, had to go. Same with Mao.
The didn't do what they did for the furthering of atheism but for a litany of other political reasons. I'm sure you know this and are just clutching at straws. Also it is fair to say that the machinery for wholesale murder and genocide are well developed these days so in a short space of time the godless (not Hitler as he was a bit of special case being a Catholic but also a bit of a pagan mystic)could kill lots more people more quickly.
Religion is a cracker for murder though as for 4 thousand years or so it's been a default setting, kill the heretic etc. Had the inquisition had access to gas and machine guns I'm sure they'd have had a killing spree equal to anything in the 20th century, the intent was certainly there.
The basic fact is still that science and religion are opposed, I'm sticking with science as it means that I can post stuff like this on the interweb using a laptop, the technology powering it is so advanced as to be almost beyond belief but still nice and provable with facts, evidence and stuff like that.
I never bother to argue with god botherers of any flavour, as their judgement is obviously so fundamentally flawed I can't really see the point. Religious belief justifies no more intellectual credence than the earth being flat or the moon being made of cheese.
You can call me an evangelical atheist if you like. I'm quite proud of being so.
You can tell me that my atheistic fervour is like a belief system if you like.Because it is.
For the reason I've stated above,if you are, it's not like your opinion is valid to me anyway.:)
Thank you trailmonkey.
And btw, I offered Stalin and Mao Zedong as examples of two people who set out to send religious beliefs "the way of the dodo".
They failed.
Presumably joolsburger believes that he will have better luck. Although he doesn't go into any detail.
No ernie, thank you. You've proved my point that peoples views both political and religious, impact upon other people and both should be considered, debated and valued with equal pertinence and respect.
8)
In terms of detail I am just doing my part by ensuring that my kids think religion is bunk and also ripping into anyone who wants to argue the toss on god.
If I can get even 3 to 5 people on board with not doing god I've contributed. I will have a secular burial and so on.
It's my keen desire to see religion become as unacceptable as racism, sexism and homophobia. I'm glad to see that in many circles a belief in god is already regarded as odd and deserving of ridicule.
Just keeping at it will get rid in the end.
Eventually I'm hoping thatgod becomes as irrelevant to most people as it is to me, it does however mean my and coming generations have to engage with the religious to turn them from their misguided ways.
Good luck joolsburger.
I'm don't have faith, but on the strength of this thread I would rather share a beer with religious ones...
ernie_lynch - Member"Ernie - I seem to remember you taking the piss and using ridicule in political debate - why should religious be any different? "
"I refer the Honourable Gentleman to my earlier answer"
I can't see an answer to this - sorry
It is strange - as an atheist I have to say my natural unthinking position is to ridicule and stammer with incredulity at those that express a faith which on reflection is poor form on my part. Very few "normal folk" with religious belief are of the ramming it down your throat persuasion so to ram your disdain down theirs is not really on. Silent sympathy (as I'm sure they are feeling for my lack of faith)maybe is the order of the day.
I think one of the reasons us atheists feel the urge to "lash out" is probably something to do with what we lived through as a child. Most of us of a certain age can remember being a child at school and being forced into daily prayer and to sing hymns as well as attend lessons learning about what those of us who are now atheists consider to be utter bollox - even in non religious schools. Looking back on it, it feels like I was subject to some sort of unwanted indoctrination - like a mild form of abuse. I wonder if the atheists of the next generation who have experienced a much more secular schooling will feel so strongly.
I find this thread hugely offensive, but appreciate everyone has their own opinions. that is one of the many redeeming qualities of Jesus, is that he allowed people to be free thinking.
Jesus to me is - My friend and saviour
Convert - if they don't bother me with their beliefs I won't bother them - I don't go around looking for god botherers to bother.
Howeve3r when I am told this or that will happen because of their views or I have to do something or can't do something then its different.
Interesting thread is interesting.
There's a world of difference, I think, between "stamping out religion" and "stamping out the religious." Someone says they want to get rid of religion and someone else hears "I want to stamp out racism by killing all the brown people."
I don't believe in a god, for what [i]really [/i]should be fairly obvious reasons. I fear for the reasoning ability of any grown adult who still has an imaginary friend. But as other threads here have proved (such as the recent 'power balance' discussion), some people simply [i]really want to believe[/i].
Back in 'biblical' times, we believed that the world was flat and that all the pretty lights in the sky were put there for our benefit. In the absence of any other explanation, god was probably as compelling as any. It's easy to see how faith got started. People start telling stories, they get handed down, changed by chinese whispers, and then ultimately used by people with agendas in order to enforce power and control over an unruly populace. Add a few sneaky clauses like 'every sperm is sacred' because children of pious parents are basically free believers, and you've got yourselves a religion.
Time moves on though. We don't know everything, but we know quite a lot about the world and the universe around us. It's been alluded to here that "science" and "atheism" are belief systems; I'd argue strongly with that. It's the opposite of a belief system, there's no "belief" or "faith" involved or required. If you liked, and had the mental ability, you could check all these things for yourselves. Scientists do this continually, trying to prove each other wrong. It's what makes it science. This is in stark contrast to religion, which tries to argue that anaylsing their 'reasoning' is offensive and then gets angry with you when you start questioning it. Unfortunately for religion, one thing us humans are inordinately good at is asking questions; so then you get threads like this. Which is a good thing, I think. If nothing else, it's bloody entertaining. (-:
Religion has its positive points; some strains create a sense of community, some provide means to 'better yourself' and so on. I just fail to see why we can't carry on having community spirit and being nice to each other without all the bribery and blackmail (umpteen virgins / fires of hell) and without the need to have "faith" in some devine creator and a harebrained view of the universe.
that is one of the many redeeming qualities of Jesus, is that he allowed people to be free thinking.
You see, I'm not sure why but as an atheist I find that sentiment irritatingly condescending. Get your god off my free thinking!
Or maybe I should just retort with "one of the most amazing things about science and nature is that people can be so chemically imbalanced as to have imaginary saviours but are still able to lead normal lives" 😉
You see, there I go again - must try harder & write considered pros like Cougar above.
yeti guy - MemberI find this thread hugely offensive, but appreciate everyone has their own opinions. that is one of the many redeeming qualities of Jesus, is that he allowed people to be free thinking
Convert - the reason this is offensive is it is saying that its because of Jesus people can be free thinking.
I find that offensive. I am free thinking because I was brought up to believe in science and to need explanations to believe something
i dont find any of this thread offensive. 🙄
I am free thinking because I was brought up to believe in science
You're free-thinking because you were told by your parents to believe scientists? That's the same wooly thinking that makes Christians.
Believe scientists??? You posted this on the web using a PC, what's that then, magic?
Nothing wooly about science.
If Arthur C Clarke is to be believed, perhaps so.
More seriously, you miss my point.
TJ was arguing that he was "free thinking" because he'd been told by his parents what to believe. That's not free thinking, that's just lucky. Free thinking would be coming to that decision regardless of his upbringing.
Cougar - ever thought of setting up a sect? If so, I might just follow it! Before I sign up, what are your teachings on 29ers and the best tyres in the mud though ?
believe in science is not the same thing as believe scientists.
Believe in the scientific method and a rational explanation for everything
Convert > The Church of Cougarism is already well-established.
TJ > that was a blatent troll and you didn't rise to it; you're no fun.
(-:
To all the Christians posting on here and defending your beliefs, how old do you think the world is? Is it too embarrassing to admit if you believe everything the bible contains, you must believe it is under 7000 years old?
Is it completely out of order for a rational thinker to want to challenge you on this? Why should someone who doesn't hold your beliefs be expected to take your claims seriously? And yes it does bother me when I know someone holds the belief that the earth is that young, what an insult to my profession! Some of you are IT guys, if someone was wrong about an area of that would you not correct them?