[Closed] Jesus Christ

I have ethical values but mine do not come from Christianity.

I suspect that this applies to the vast majority of people, which is really great 🙂

I find this attitude that you need to be Christian to be moral and that morality comes from Christianity patronising at best and offensive at worst.

I didn't say that you [i]need[/i] to be Christian to have such moral values, it's just some of the moral values I have adopted are those taught by Jesus.

Ian

Would any one like some toast?

Nah, I'm a waffle man.

There's been 7 pages of waffle here, help yourself. 😉

TJ - but where did your "innate moral structure" come from in the first place?

For me, I believe it was God given.

🙄 🙄 🙄

Ohh FFS. So Christians were given morality, and others weren't?

Was the religious identity of a child specified before conception / birth? As yes, this one gets the morality upgrade package - he / she is a Christian. Next, no, not this one - muslim, no - atheist, no, no, ahh yes moraility in this one please - another budding Christian.

What about those that were "born" Christian (and I firmly believe that no child is born to a particular religious tag) and then show(ed) an absolute absence of morality during their lifetime. Did they have it taken away again?, kept it for the weekend?, kept it for the afterlife?

What about animals? Do cats get morality? What about creatures that show clear social integration, communication, cooperation and reap the benefits of altruism? Wolves for example, come to mind....

Five loaves and two fishes? 🙂

LOL @ sharki, very good! 🙂

The morals thing is interesting - there's a lot of evidence to suggest that "altruism" is innate, ie be nice to others of your species and they'll be nice to you. Alternatively, co-operate within your social structure and you'll achieve more than if you try it by yourself - again there's thousands of examples of teamwork within the animal kingdom, including animals where they don't think about it it's just done (due to genetic/environmental pressures).
Of course in the animal kingdom it kind of breaks down when it comes to the "kill & eat" part of things but certainly intra-species altruism/co-operation is well understood.

There are a lot of parts of the Bible where the moral code is decidedly old-fashioned. I'm sure child protection agencies and the police might have something to say if you tied your son up and held a knife over him having been commanded to do so by a higher being demanding some respect for example...

Morals change with time - I'm sure if I suggested treating gays/blacks/29er riders as second class citizens there'd be uproar but it was only 15 years ago that apartheid was finally repealed. The moral code at the time it was introduced (late 1940's) said it was fine.

I'm NOT saying only Christians have morales - please re-read (Cougar - this is what I said).

I do believe, and this is just a personal belief, that morales are created by God in the first place.

Sorry, my bad; I read it about six times and missed the "not" every time. Cheerfully withdrawn.

in the animal kingdom it kind of breaks down when it comes to the "kill & eat" part of things

We do that too, of course. (Well, I don't, but 'we' as a species do.)

Is survival immoral?

Morals are a flexible concept that change over time. Altruism is something that is almost certainly an evolutionary trait. Anyone who really understands evolution can clearly see that it not only affects your physiology but also your phsycology.

For social animals like man the ability to co-operate, maintain a steady relationship for the purposes of investing the time it takes to raise young and so on, ie what could be described as moral behaviour, came long before the modern understanding of god.

If anything religion corrupts moral behaviour more readily than atheism, I don't believe in much and certainly don't believe in anything so strongly that I'd readily fight for it. The very religious seem keen to impose their structures of morality onto others for Islam it's almost top of the list of things to do this morning, perhaps less so for Christians.

This is what I mean by breathtaking arrogance, how can the religious claim to know the "mind of god" and what his/it's view of morality might take? It's so contradictory as to be laughable.

Apparently Druids have now been recognised as a religion by the government. This was reported late last week in the media. This means that the Druid faith is a recognised charity and benefits from many other tax breaks.

So now all of us tax payers, religious or otherwise, now contribute a little of our earnings to the druid faith in the way we make up the difference from the tax they used to pay but now don't have to.

Anyone who says that organised religion is not forced on in terms of we all have to pay for it as it is given a higher financial status by our government, needs to dig a little more.
And I've heard it said that atheism is 'just like a religion'.. Well at least not in the eyes of the government it isn't who won't give the same tax breaks and charitable status to the humanist society.

When I say that I'm fine living alongside people of faith as a personal choice so long as it does not impact on my choices and freedoms, it is this sort of example that makes me want to argue back against 'organised' religion as well as our political system that is still heavily influenced by it.

My soon to be ex wife had to hold a bible in the office of her solicitor the other day in order to legally 'stamp' her afadavit. She explained she was not a believer and the solicitor said, 'Oh it doesn't matter. It's just quicker this way'. My wife could have said no, it goes against her own personal morals to pretend to be religious but that would have inconvenienced her to the tune of a few more weeks of waiting. Hypocritical? yes maybe but in the end she's managed to take advantage of a benefit designed only to be bestowed on the religious.

So our legal system is also tied in with, in particular, the Christian faith.

This is my problem with organised religion. It steps on the toes, in a legal and government sanctioned way, of the lives of everyone, whether they believe or not. Whether they object or not. It affects the tax we all pay and the judicial system that we all rely on.

I could go on with other examples involving the education system and how if you pretend to be religious you gain greater choice... and the way that worship is a prescribed part of state education... oooooh! it makes me cross!

When atheists argue using terms as 'not down my throat'.. they tend not to be arguing about people trying to force them to believe in the word of the bible or any other holy book, but rather the fact that we all have to pay and go along with religious legal structures in order to live in this society. If they didn;t they would be disadvantaged. That sounds to me like a two tier system, to coin a political cliche.

Simple changes are all that's needed.
A state education system where religious education means learning about different faiths only and the collective worship element removed from the compulsory elements. It IS compulsory at the moment BTW. Even religious studies is a compulsory subject in the state education system to GCSE level. You can opt your child out of it but the school has no obligation to replace it with another academic subject. We were left with the choice of our son taking RE to GCSE or opting him out and have him gain an extra two free periods a week. We wanted him to be able to choose another subject but that was not an option the school could offer.

Charitable status is maybe ok but remove the tax breaks for religious organisations.

Remove the outdated judicial mechanism of swearing on any holy book. If you lie in court or in a document you are in contempt of court. That's enough surely.

When believers of no faith are treated by society as equals to those with faith then I think I'll quietly shut up and get on.

[i]There are a lot of parts of the Bible where the moral code is decidedly old-fashioned[/i]

God behaves like a vindictive shit for most of the old testament for a kick off....

No worries Cougar - if it helps, my wife will ask me to get something from the fridge and it isn't there when I look. Yet whenever she stops what she's doing and opens the door it's magically appeared!! How do they do that!! LOL

I do believe, and this is just a personal belief, that morales are created by God in the first place.

Ok, so lets explore that belief. Created by God, for whom? All of humankind? Just Christians, or all religions and races?

What about the other creatures on the planet? Did humans get morality because God created [b]"man"[/b] in his own image? Does this mean that men are fundamentaly moral and women are fundamentally immoral?

It strikes me that, judged on a planetary / environmental impact level that humans are actually fundamentally amoral /immoral

Left to God's planning there would have been no problems but sin got in the way.

To argue a point and involve God then you have to also include the one who always manages to hide from these discussions - the devil, satan, fallen angel if you will.

Yet whenever she stops what she's doing and opens the door it's magically appeared!! How do they do that!!

It's not just god, women also move in mysterious ways.

(-:

To argue a point and involve God then you have to also include the one who always manages to hide from these discussions - the devil, satan, fallen angel if you will.

Presumably god created satan. Why do we get the blame for that for all eternity?

Left to God's planning there would have been no problems but sin got in the way

The problem of the origin of evil is not a new one, and one that the Bible doesn't answer explicitly. The Bible is very clear that God is holy and therefore couldn't be the author of sin (1 John 1:5), but since He is also sovereign He must have allowed sin to enter the world.

Why would He let this happen? Remember that God created the world for His own glory. The explanation of the origin of evil I like best is that if everything was left perfect as God created it, we would only see one side of His character. We would see His power and perfection, but not much else. By allowing sin into the world and more importantly providing a solution to the problem of sin we see God's grace, mercy, and love (Romans 5:8). We see that God loved a world (that hated Him) so much that He would send His Son to take the punishment deserved by sinners.

It's also worth noting that God's plan for the salvation of mankind was not an afterthought or a patch on a failure as if Satan got the better of Him. The Bible says that it was always His plan to save sinners through the work of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 3:11).

Is that supposed to be ironic?

God didn't create sin? I thought god created everything, where did it come from then? God's dad?

Remember that God created the world for His own glory.

You forget to mention in your statements that this comes from a book... a bit like Care Bears really.

You can't 'remember' or refer to a book that has no scientific or factual origin and quote from it like it is (and pardon my LOL pun) gospel. It just isn't right.

It would be like a Judge in a court saying, 'you shall be put to death like Skeletor at the hands of He-Man' as ultimately they are both stories. Nothing more, nothing less.

No offence intended.

And we're not supposed to ridicule this??

FFS and furthermore WTF..

We see that God loved a world (that hated Him) so much that He would send His Son to take the punishment deserved by sinners.

It's also worth noting that God's plan for the salvation of mankind was not an afterthought or a patch on a failure as if Satan got the better of Him. The Bible says that it was always His plan to save sinners through the work of Jesus

FWIW i just cannot see how a person of sound mind could possibly actually believe in this stuff. It's actual fantasy and plain to see.

The excuse of 'having faith' is nonsense. Science tells me if i try to walk on water i will get wet. Having faith will not stop this but apparently it happened to some guy who reckoned he was the son of the Chairman of teh Fairies.

Utter utter nonsense. Believing in make believe does not solve the worlds problems, it clouds the minds and prevents reasoned and accurate discourse. It is responsible for the continued suffering of literally millions of people around the world and this is unexcusebale.

Lead a fair and responsible life and think for yourself. There is no god.

fact. and you cannot prove otherwise. it is not the non believers job to prove a negative, the believers should be made to prove their positive.

[i]so rather than kill us all he [ you gave god a gender there not me] just killed his son instead...a foolproof plan by anyones standards. [/i]

He tried to clear sin once before by drowning everyone and everything (including the presumably blameless animals) with the exception of Noah and co.

So that failed to clear sin, God presumably not realising that Noah wasn't quite the saint He thought so then he sent his own son who died for us.

/looks around at the state of the world

I believe, in the terms of a certain internet site, that would have the word FAIL writ large next to it...

There will always be people who do evil things. Ironically, for otherwise good people to do evil things, that usually requires religion.

I didn't forget to mention that the source of my statement was the Bible which is why I included references to relevant verses. I'm not trying to convince anyone here, I'm just providing an explanation for what evangelical Christians believe and why they believe it. Some people on here asked some questions so I offered some answers. That's fine that you disagree but there is no need to be insulting about it. Can't say I'm surprised tho.

He tried to clear sin once before by drowning everyone and everything (including the presumably blameless animals) with the exception of Noah and co.

... but excluding birds and fish. Maybe that's why we still have sin today, from eating evil fish?

Cougar - Member
God didn't create sin? I thought god created everything, where did it come from then? God's dad?

I've already explained this in my Warranty replacement post, stating God is no better then fruit according to the opinions of the majority of STW'rs.

God created Lucifer an angel, Lucifer created Satan, therefore god played his part in the creation of sin. However he seemes to have written a get out clause/loophole, which voids the 28day no quibble money back guarantee.

The pope's for example, what a fine example of upstanding humans they've been over the years, apart from the murderous, deceitful bad ones of course, still gotta love 'em eh?
Well worth spanking several million pounds worth of security measures on his little publicity tour this year.

and of the wargs, the elves, the dwarves and kings of men to name but a few, where's their part in all this? Gandalf hasn't even been mentioned yet...
More toast or waffles anyone?

Cougar - I'm not sure that animals "sin" as a choice.

Sharki - you appear to be doing a fine line in waffles - I'll# have 3 please

Bit harsh then, wiping them all out. What did they do to deserve a soggy near-genocide?

I'll have sardines on toast.. evil little blighters..

I have a question... will there be sex and drugs and rock and roll in heaven..?
Is that why Christians always look so smug..?

If not then I will continue to worship satan and all his lovely yummy excess and perversion and stuff.. all my mates are going to hell anyways.. I'd be lonely in heaven

And god said unto Noah, 'though shall build an ark and save your family and gather animals', Once the floods had gone, Noah then planted a vineyard and made wine and sat nekid in his tent only to be caught by his son, it was NOT written that Noah was caught in his tent with his pants down and surrounded with animals,so the first case of beastiality was kept a well hidden secret from all but god.

It's written that Noah lived to the ripe old age of 950, he was 600 when the floods came. This is all fascinating reading.

Was it during these floods that Nessie got into the Loch? It seems the only logical way..

Some interesting responses. I liked this one from markd:

FWIW i just cannot see how a person of sound mind could possibly actually believe in this stuff. It's actual fantasy and plain to see.

The excuse of 'having faith' is nonsense. Science tells me if i try to walk on water i will get wet. Having faith will not stop this but apparently it happened to some guy who reckoned he was the son of the Chairman of teh Fairies.

I don't treat my faith as an "excuse" at all. To me it feels very tangible, if difficult to describe. It helps me through my day, and I see the same in other people who also have faith.

Utter utter nonsense. Believing in make believe does not solve the worlds problems, it clouds the minds and prevents reasoned and accurate discourse. It is responsible for the continued suffering of literally millions of people around the world and this is unexcusebale.

Without religion, I do not think this would solve the worlds problems either...

Lead a fair and responsible life...

Yes!

...and think for yourself.

I have, and my thinking has lead me to the belief that there is a God.

There is no god.

In your view, which is fine. Lead yourself a fair and responsible life without god, and I'll lead mine with God.

fact. and you cannot prove otherwise. it is not the non believers job to prove a negative, the believers should be made to prove their positive.

You're trying to prove a negative here. I can't prove there is a God but it doesn't automatically stand to reason that there isn't.

Same applies to infinity, for example. Can't prove it's there, yet scientists and mathematicians the world over are divided on where it exists or not.

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/religious-belief-linked-to-being-a-bit-dim-201009293125/

atheists are more knowledgable than believers when it comes to the facts accorind to this survey....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39397251/ns/us_news-life/

That's fine that you disagree but there is no need to be insulting about it.

I agree on one level. There really is no need to be insulting on a personal level.

However, it becomes rather difficult to avoid insult when believers put such faith in their beliefs that all rational analysis is abandoned. The biblical explanations that you cite regarding the origin of sin truly are an insult to rational 21st Century knowledge and thinking.

BUT, it is near impossible to state that without causing insult. BECAUSE it is belief, and therefore deeply held and PERSONAL, to criticise or question will almost inevitably cause insult. To question FACT should not cause personal insult, merely to seek further / convincing evidence.

[img] [/img]

Welcome to two pages ago.

🙂

I can't prove there is a God but it doesn't automatically stand to reason that there isn't.

The reverse is true also, of course. So then you're left at looking at which option seems most likely. Science, evolution, chemistry; or a higher power. Both of which raise further questions. For instance:

It seems unlikely that the universe just popped into being, and our human brains have difficulties with concepts like 'it was always there', so we conclude that a god must have made it. That ties up all the loose ends except, who made god? Well, either he just popped into being, or he's always been there... hang on, haven't we've heard this before somewhere?

I genuinely don't understand the logic in using the concept of "god" to neatly explain a complex universe, and then readily accepting exactly the same 'creation' concepts that we had problems with a moment ago in order to explain god.

I can't prove there is a God but it doesn't automatically stand to reason that there isn't.

I don't treat my faith as an "excuse" at all. To me it feels very tangible, if difficult to describe. It helps me through my day,

The other thing with that of course is, if you can neither prove nor disprove god, then there must be a reason for that concept to even cross your mind. I can't disprove that there are tiny invisible unicorns living in my skirting board, but that doesn't immediately give me cause to think that there might be.

Now, if I started to find little pink droppings around the edges of my walls, or my Cheerios started mysteriously disappearing from the cupboard (and assuming that unicorns like Cheerios; they're mysterious creatures so who am I to judge) then I might start to entertain the idea. Otherwise, it's a nonsensical conclusion to draw.

In the case of god, the only compelling reason to believe in god is [i]because other people tell us to.[/i] It's a man-made concept, dating back to a time when people thought that the rain was god crying (and presumably snow was [i]really [/i]concerning). Now, if it was a conclusion you've arrived at independently, that would make far more sense to me.

Gods have existed as a concept far longer than what we recognise as Christianity today. Back in ancient times there were dozens of the buggers. Assuming for a moment that the 'higher power' theory holds water; what's to say that there aren't multiple gods all controlling different things? Why does no-one believe in a thunder god and a rain god and a cheese god? Because it's not [i]fashionable?![/i]

Incidentally, just so we're clear:

I'm not trolling, I'm really not. My natural writing style might be a little ... irreverent, but I'm genuinely posing questions because I genuinely just do not understand.

After eight pages, I'm not wholly sure that I'm much nearer either.

Higgo - Member
Personal insults aimed at forum members are bad, whether it's to do with wheel size, 'cheeky', support of football generally, support of specific football team, number of gears, ownership of a road bike etc etc.

... hearing the difference in directional hi-fi cabling...

I think IanB does a good job of showing that faith in God can and should coexist with thoughtful consideration of evidence . Like him I can see evidence of God everywhere not least in my own life. This doesn't make me irrational. I'm not ignoring the evidence, I just see it in a different conceptual framework. If you start with the presupposition that God does not exist, then faith in God does seems silly. But if God does exist then it is perfectly reasonable that He should reveal Himself as He has in the Bible.

How does god reveal himself?

If you start with the presupposition that God does not exist, then faith in God does seems silly.

Without the believers telling you otherwise, that is the default starting point, yes.

if God does exist then it is perfectly reasonable that He should reveal Himself as He has in the Bible.

You know, no offence and all, but there's so much wrong with that statement that I'm having trouble knowing where to start. Let's go with this: assuming god exists, do you believe that the bible's description of god's interaction with his people is rational and sensible? That if you were an omniscient, omnipresent diety, that's how you'd conduct yourself?

Let me put it another way. If a bloke came down off a big mountain today, slightly singed, with a badly carved stone tablet under his arm, claiming that god had spoken to him and laid out these rules for life, would you believe him?

Assuming that the answer here is "no", why does the fact that it happened 2000 years ago and the story was passed down verbally through the generations until it hit the literate (assuming it happened at all), why does that suddenly have more credence?

For it to be "perfectly reasonable" for god to reveal himself as per the bible, it should be equally reasonable to expect it to happen again. If you're going to believe the bible, there's no reason not to answer "yes" to that question.

But if God does exist then it is perfectly reasonable that He should reveal Himself as He has in the Bible.

faith in God can and should coexist with thoughtful consideration of evidence . Like him I can see evidence of God everywhere not least in my own life.

This doesn't make me irrational. I'm not ignoring the evidence

Apropos of nothing,

Isn't it strange how UFOs always abduct farmers from the middle of 100 acres of land, and stick probes up the bottoms of people who live on their own or in their mum's basement, rather than say landing in the middle of Trafalgar Square one day and going "hi there, we're from Galaga 7!" (or I suppose, "peep pook grrsquish qlag" if they've not mastered the language yet)?

[frothing at the mouth]
This to me is conclusive proof of UFO's as they understand plausible deniability...imagine if it was someone credible saying this like say a celebrity or a reality tv winner or we had actuall proof of it ..see too clever to get caught so it must be real ...eh think about that eh well go on just think you close minded fool. 😯 😉
[/frothing at the mouth]

barnsleymitch has given up cruising for a bruising, then...

... hearing the difference in directional hi-fi cabling...

Ah, right; faith in something that has no scientific proof of any 'benefits' whatsoever.

barnsleymitch has given up cruising for a bruising, then...

He'd get you in a headlock until you cried like a little girl and wet your pants.

infradig - Member
perfectly reasonable that He should reveal Himself as He has in the Bible.

I got arrested for doing that, not in a book but a High street.

If the one almighty creator can get away with it, surely that means it's not a sin...I want my £70 fine back.

Double bloody standards that is, sod all to do with faith or religion.

And what about this Eve being made from Adam rubbish. What sort of fool would design something that leaked every month and cause inconvenience to men, other than Manitou.

it wasn't my intent to try to change any minds on here just to give an account what Christians believe. I understand it does sound foolish to most. there's not a lot of point in continuing to go back and forth questioning each others intellect and reason; we are arguing from two entirely different perspectives. that's ok, I have no ill feelings but it seems like these sorts of discussions bring out the worst in folks so I'm going to end my participation here. If anyone has any genuine questions about Christianity and is not just interested lambasting it email me offline.

Infradig summed it up brilliantly on page 6:

Logic or reason will never convince a person to become a Christian. It takes a work of God to change a man's heart. The most compelling argument for Christianity is the changed life of a Christian. I have seen the abundant kindness and transforming power of Jesus Christ in my own life. I don't need more convincing than that.

Are those that don't believe in God but who demand evidence of Him expecting to find something that they could comprehend? When I consider the scale of the universe, the majesty and glory of it and how small I appear on the face of it, together with the improbability of our existence on this planet, I conclude that there is a huge amount that I don't understand and most likely never will.

But the universe is still there, and it has an origin. The presumption that the closer we get to the origin of the universe the closer we get to either understanding God or proving He is or isn't there doesn't seem particularly logical to me. I'm unlikely to be able to get my head around it anyway, never mind explain it to someone else. Not only that, it misses the point.

I look to what is written in the Bible to try and understand what it's telling me. I'm not looking at it for scientific guidance, more spiritual guidance. Some I understand and much I don't. Science has revealed many things that the Bible was ignorant of, yet I still see God in the things we understand as well as the things we don't.

Ian

expecting to find something that they could comprehend?

That's beautifully written Ian.
It's nice to see that this thread is actually mostly reasoned debate, makes quite a change.

I consider it bias towards waffles.

And TBH i was deeply offended that my offering's of toast were mostly ignored.

I'm hurt and disappointed.
Had a pot of tea and some coffee on the go too. 🙁

Elfinsafety - Member

... hearing the difference in directional hi-fi cabling...

Ah, right; faith in something that has no scientific proof of any 'benefits' whatsoever.

barnsleymitch has given up cruising for a bruising, then...

He'd get you in a headlock until you cried like a little girl and wet your pants.

Elfinsafety's famous fish on a hook impersonation.

Thing is, why would anything need to be worshipped, and why would anybody want to be worshipping anything anyway? Can't see the point, meself.

Elfinsafety's famous fish on a hook impersonation.

Really? Yeah. Ok. Course. 😆

Fancy meeting for a pint sometime, Woppit?

@ crazy-legs

Thanks 🙂

Can I just say that nobody on here has ever tried to ram anything worse than a pork pie down my throat?

Well thank God for that! 😀

Just want to say that the most interesting and thought provoking things said on this thread have actually been said by those supporting religion. Like IanB's bit up there.

Elfinsafety - Member

Elfinsafety's famous fish on a hook impersonation.

Really? Yeah. Ok. Course

That's right. I just wanted to see if you still had the same impulse to keep saying the same thing over and over ad neauseum as if nobody got it the first time round and behold! there you were.

I'd rather stick needles in my eyes than have a pint with you. I suspect you are exactly like your posts suggest.

Still waiting for a response on the "worshipping" thing, BTW.

Mr Woppit - Take all the things/ people you've got in your life and start to make a pyramid. At the bottom you've got things that aren't that important. Above those you got slightly fewer things that are a little bit important and above those fewer things again more important than the ones below. Keep going until you place just one item on top of your pyramid. That is what you worship.

For Christians, Jesus is at the top of the pyramid, Hindu's have Vishnu, Buddhists have Buddha etc. We all worship something. We're hard-wired for it.

I'd rather stick needles in my eyes than have a pint with you. I suspect you are exactly like your posts suggest.

Ha ha! Even though you have no 'evidence' as to what I'm really like??

😆

You do make me laugh.

Which is why I'd [i]love[/i] to have a pint with you.

Mr Woppit - Take all the things/ people you've got in your life and start to make a pyramid

Why?

Why [i]not[/i]?

A conversation about the moral nature of humans descends into internet bun fight. Presumably this is some superb bit of interactive satire.

Nice one.

Seems to me it's being suggested that if I undertook this Herculean labour, I'd be able to "worship" something. As I don't much see any point in "worshipping" in the first place, I have no idea why I would even bother to begin said construction. The reward seems remarkably puny for such a lot of hard work...

I meant metaphorically, of course 🙄
I'm trying to get you to see that there will be something in your life that you worship over everything else, though you might not see it as worship as such. It's entirely down to you to be honest in your assessment of your life.

Anyway, it's a lovely evening here in Wales, so I'm off out on the bike 😀

IanB - Member
I meant metaphorically, of course
I'm trying to get you to see that there will be something in your life that you worship over everything else

Me too. Metaphorical hard work for a metaphorical reward, then. Still puny. Metaphorically.

It still doesn't deal with why anybody should be"worshipping" anything in the first place or even want to.

It's either worship or it isn't. If it isn't, what are we talking about?

Ah, riding a bike on a lovely evening. One of my personal favourite ways of appreciating the big man's work and worshipping. With perhaps an urgent prayer or two on the scary bits.

Woot, i've got pile of cake, with a bike and pron collection balancing on top.

Looks more like a Novelty cake TBH.

Looking forward to a night of worshiping now.

[img] [/img]

Thankyou for sharing your irrational belief in invisible myth, anonymouse. However, my question was, why do you need to "worship" at all?

Woppit; why do you constantly feel the need to belittle and show no respect for others' views at all?

irrational belief in invisible myth,

You say this to others, yet you yourself beleive in the invisible myth of 'Hi-Fi'. Do you not see the irony and hypocrisy in this?

Seriously mate; I sit here laughing my head off at your attempts to be superior to anyone else on here. I mean, come on;

I'd rather stick needles in my eyes than have a pint with you.

Really? You'd rather blind yourself than meet someone you've never met? Who you have no idea as to their character other than the persona you perceive on an internet forum?

And you call others 'irrational'???