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Are you able to make a credible case for why this current state of affairs is not harming the labour party electorally?
I know you want to be all playground and name calling but honestly you have forgotten to actually make sense whilst doing this.
Just saying
Are you able to make a credible case for why this current state of affairs is not harming the labour party electorally?
I know you want to be all playground and name calling but honestly you have forgotten to actually make sense whilst doing this.
Just saying
Arguably labour's problem is that they didn't fail badly enough, and they will have a period akin to the Blair years for the conservatives whilst they try various leaders. Is this period harming Labour electorally? That depends on your perspective, in the long term probably not, the narrative will be shown to be false and new people will step forward to lead. The worst case for labour is that some else steps into their space as the SNP have done in Scotland so arguably the UKIP leadership election is more important to Labour than their own
The core issue is that the protestors have the stage at the moment, they are trying to create a new set of accepted behaviours that essentially exclude a lot of people; thought Blair was OK until Iraq, Tory, voted other than labour, green, SWP etc, Tory, don't like Corbyn, Tory. It's the twitter version of politics that aims to divide rather than unite. The followers of this new labour politics look for heresy rather than embracing different views.
I like many others change who they will vote for, there is no tribal loyalty to be abused, what is needed is a set of credible policies backed by a credible team. I don't see labour being able to get there for years as the natural uniters are not ready to step up.
"Are you able to make a credible case for why this current state of affairs is not harming the labour party electorally?"
It has killed them electorally. An opposition 6 years into an unpopular Government should have cleaned up in the local elections. Labour was on the losing Brexit side. The message on the doorstep is so bleak the MPs launched a desperate bid to get rid of JC with little hope of success.
....should have cleaned up in the local elections. Labour was on the losing Brexit side.
They did clean up in the local elections. Labour won 58 councils to the Tories 38 councils. Labour won 1,326 council seats to the Tories 842 seats. And a lot of it wasn't in natural Labour territory such as Woking and Tunbridge Wells. The message on the doorstep wasn't bleak, which of course is why the plotters did nothing after the local elections.
Labour were on the losing Brexit side, this is correct. The Tories, the LibDems, the SNP, and the Greens were also on the losing Brexit side.
In the case of the Tories they decided to replace their leader with someone who fought a very weak and unconvincing Remain campaign.
"They did clean up in the local elections."
They lost 11 seats 6 years into an unpopular government!
Yunki I have said this before, my soloution was to create jobs that paid very well with really good quality of life - if that's sitting about moaning then we all need to do some moaning. So my question to you and Ernie is how many good jobs/opportunities have you created? Also just for the record although the I am a business owner and major shareholder I pay myself the same salary as the rest of the people in the business - it's called social responsibility and as a country we need a shed load more grass roots social responsibility, the upper levels of politics ceased to fight for the working class after 1984 - stop whining about these *s get up and go out and improve one other persons life chances/opportunities/quality of life because I can guarantee those in power now and in future will not do this as they encourage this money driven bling orientated culture we live in that is simply focused on maximising profit. Trouble is Yunki most people (this might come as a suprise to your leftist ideal)don't give a * about the human being next to them when it comes to money Thatcher proved that beyond doubt - we the working class were destroyed in 1984 I was there I saw it first hand I watched "them" remove our pride, strength, unity and our communities in a matter of months and with all due respect to your new protest group we were much bigger and stronger and "they" did not have a fraction of the media or financial power they have now. Anyway in respect to this thread I will get my coat and see if I can create another job before Xmas.
In the case of the Tories they decided to replace their leader with someone who fought a very weak and unconvincing Remain campaign.
Ernie - Theresa May played a blinder. Stayed out of the way. Sat back and gave everyone else enough rope, and watched them assassinate each other, then stepped in to the vacuum she helped create to seize power. Then she has a night of the long knives, sacked the old guard, then stitched Boris (her main opponent) up like a kipper!
Talk about ruthless political manouvering. Oh, that the labour party had anyone possessing such consomethinge political skill? Fat chance! I almost feel sorry for Jezza - the accidental leader of the opposition. There by administrative error - she humiliated him at the first PMQ's. I'm sure you don't agree, but she did. Swatted him aside. He wasn't even a minor irritant. Expect plenty more of that. Bet she can't believe her luck. Depressingly.
oldmanmtb
only can I add the stipulation that I'd like enough pay and hours to be able to provide for my family, and enough free time to prevent myself from becoming ill 🙂
ernie_lynch - Member
So, I think what we're saying then is that the Tories will be winning the next GE then.
No one can predict what will happen in 4 years time, after all who predicted a month ago that the Blairites would launch a coup doomed to failure with no plan and not even a candidate with any chance of winning ?But yes, if there was a general election next week I don't think that you need to be an exceptional political pundit to figure out that the Tories would easily win. So well done the PLP.
Fantastic. I knew we'd get there in the end.
Yes - the failure of the PLP to get rid of Comrade Clueless ensures the next glorious defeat.
My work here is done. 😀
Jesus Yunki!
"Gis a job"
"I would like enough hours"
No one will give you anything, I would like a new Ducati but not enough to work another 20 hours a week to get one FFS
Double post
Labour was on the losing Brexit side.
So was the government. The difference was that Labour persuaded most of its supporters to vote Remain.
The failure was Cameron's.
They lost 11 seats 6 years into an unpopular government!
They won 1,326. You are using stats which have no meaningful value, losing 11 seats doesn't even prove a loss of support, it only proves that 11 seats were lost.
There are no percentage results which can compare like for like. Where there is, such as the mayoral results, it actually shows a significant increase in support for Labour.
[i]Looking at the number of council seats won or lost alone it will be impossible to say. Having analysed the data on seats won or lost at local elections, and general election performance since the 1970s, Fisher said: “There is absolutely no discernible, sensible correlation there.”
Tony Blair scored the record number of Labour gains, with 1,807 in 1995, but his 1996 tally of 468 gains – just a year before he stormed into Downing Street – was easily eclipsed by Michael Foot’s 988 gains in 1981, Neil Kinnock’s 584 in 1991 and the 800-plus gains for Miliband in both 2011 and 2012. “Big gains in local elections are no guarantee of future success,” says Fisher.[/i]
Massive gains may merely reflect poor previous performance whilst poor gains may simply reflect very good previous performance - obvious I would have thought.
I reckon the fact that the plotters were unable to move against the Corbyn after the local elections, something which had been widely predicted, proves that they were not the disaster that some had hoped they would be. And yes big n daft, I'm including Tony Blair in that comment, I'm such a commie, as you point out.
Now I'm not going to claim that the local elections were a stunning victory for Labour, that would be as ridiculous as your claim that they represented some sort of electoral disaster for Labour.
The article that I link to above says whilst it is impossible make a "sensible correlation" the best guess is that reflected in a general election it would give the Tories a 1% lead.
Obviously this isn't enough. However people don't always vote exactly the same in a general election, or even from one day to the next, 1% is well within the margin of error, ie, it could easily be a 1% in Labour's favour.
Furthermore there is still another 4 years before the next general election and support for Labour has been increasing in the last year. Well at least it had been until 80% of the PLP decided to sabotage the party by throwing their toys out of the pram screaming. All the opinion polls after Corbyn was first elected gave the Tories a big lead, that had disappeared in just a few months.
Btw I have no idea why you you keep referring to "6 years into an unpopular government". First of all this government is just over a year old, the previous government was a coalition government. And secondly there isn't much proof that it is particularly unpopular, are you suggesting that Cameron was a particularly unpopular Prime Minister?
I would like a new Ducati but not enough to work another 20 hours a week to get one FFS
WTF!? Who said anything about toys and status symbols..?? I'm not a ****ing 12 year old boy, I've two kids and wouldn't mind a little home one day, a council house would be alright if they still existed
Ok.. I started off thinking that I should listen to your wise words seeing as you rate yourself as a bit of veteran of the grass roots movement, but I'm beginning to wonder if you took one two many smacks over the head on the picket lines..
So we can't hope for a job that will give us enough to support our family? Whilst some folk are earning £600 per hour conducting spurious white collar activities?
Stick it up your arse then..
You wanna raise your expectations pal
[b]"They did clean up in the local elections."
"I'm not going to claim that the local elections were a stunning victory for Labour"[/b]
I think you've conceded the point.
🙂
Stick it up your arse then..
You wanna raise your expectations pal
Only after he's checked his privilege.
outofbreath - Member"They did clean up in the local elections."
"I'm not going to claim that the local elections were a stunning victory for Labour"
I think you've conceded the point.
[i][b]clean up
phrasal verb of clean
informal
1.
make a substantial gain or profit.[/i][/b]
Labour won 1,326 council seats to the Tories 842 seats and all four mayoral contests.
I would call that substantial but I'm not going to claim that it was a "stunning victory", that would just be silly. As silly in fact as your suggestion that it was some sort of disaster for Labour.
But anyway if the only comment you have to make in response to my rather long and rambling post is my definition of "clean up" and "stunning victory", then that's reassuring.
And I'm more than happy to withdraw my comment that they "cleaned up", they just did a helluva a lot better than the Tories and didn't clean up at all.
"But anyway if the only comment you have to make in response to my rather long and rambling post is my definition of "clean up" and "stunning victory", then that's reassuring."
No need. You've finally admitted it wasn't a stunning victory. I see no need to go into the detail of why it wasn't.
Come on OOB, it was predicted to be a disaster for Corbyn probably the end for him. It wasn't, in fact it was a decent result for Labour/Corbyn. In fact media people were shocked/disappointed* how well Labour did.
*I got the impression they wanted Corbyn to fail in order to have a story.
My "Ducati" point is if you want something badly enough you will at least attempt to work for it. I left school with one O level and then did a further 11 years of part time/day release education to get an Engineering degree most funded out of my back pocket - I have a nice house and a good little business but there have been few holidays and lots of very long days and most of my clothes still come out of a charity shop, the current education system in this country is not perfect but it affords most people the opportunity to progress and then change their lives - it all depends how badly you want that change - it's a positive V negative approach to life.
Funny my youngest son came out of uni with a good degree but could not find a job for that skill so he went to work as a shop assistant fot TKMAXX ended up a team leader in 18 months on £20k just got a new job with a distribution business in he north of england on 24k base + some performance bonus he is 23 years old and is buying his first house (buying new so gets gov help) he has not had a penny from me since he left home at 18 - he has a car motorcycle very expensive MTB all paid for. This is because he "wants" this badly enough to focus on it - oh and I did not "arrange" either job for him and incidentally he is serverley dyslexic - positive mental attitude works ****ing wonders
You've finally admitted it wasn't a stunning victory.
What do you mean I've [i]"finally admitted it wasn't a stunning victory"[/i] ? I never for a moment described it as a stunning victory, where on earth did you get that from ? 🙂
Are confusing me with someone who makes wild extreme and unsubstantiated claims like binners ?
Labour did do a lot better than the Tories though. In fact they easily won the election.
What do you mean I've "finally admitted it wasn't a stunning victory" ?
I mean:
7hrs ago:
They did clean up in the local elections.
3hrs ago:
I'm not going to claim that the local elections were a stunning victory for Labour
This is circular I already spelled it out [url= http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/jeremy-corbyn/page/229#post-7864120 ]here.[/url]
This is circular I already spelled it out here.
Yes, and you're still wrong.
Legal challenge thrown out so Corbyn remains on the ballot
Legal challenge thrown out so Corbyn remains on the ballot
Reading the rules I can't see how you could argue it any other way. It says that challengers require nominations, but it says nothing about the sitting leader needing them.
I can't see how you could argue it any other way
I think you probably don't realise just how the desperate the plotters are. The only realistic way their man can win is if he is the only name on the ballot paper.
Seriously, they are desperate. Dyed in the wool Blairites are throwing their weight behind a man who is calling for a socialist revolution and taxing the rich, that's how desperate they are.
And who could have predicted that a year ago? Apart from those people who can predict the next general election result in 4 years time obviously.
You see, just like we were warned, the establishment and those in power pull together to obstruct Jeremy, because they are afraid of him...
It really is painful, this man is a walking disaster :
[b][i]"I have got members of my own party in Pontypridd who have joined because they think the party is heading in the right direction, and I agree with them"[/i][/b]- Owen Smith on the Jeremy Vine show at lunchtime today.
So he is challenging the leader of the Labour Party because he agrees that the party is heading in the right direction.
FFS someone convince him to withdraw from the ballot, he is going to get annihilated.
I can't believe how many gaffes he can cram in one day, and there's another 2 months to go before the ballot !
Have all these MPs who nominated him (apparently 70% of the PLP) ever actually met Owen Smith and talked to him? Surely not.
From Newsnight. Burnley
Maybe it's all a clever plan by Corbyn to increase membership and cement his leadership 🙂
ernie I think Smith's approach is to say the leftwards move is correct and that he is as radical as Corbyn but a superior leader
Maybe it's all a clever plan by Corbyn to increase membership and cement his leadership
Well the plan might backfire. I'm starting to feel so sorry for Owen that I can see myself voting for him just out of pity.
Damn my charitable bleeding-heart side.
jambalaya - Memberernie I think Smith's approach is to say the leftwards move is correct and that he is as radical as Corbyn but a superior leader
Yes I get that but his daily gaffes aren't providing a convincing argument.
And why do 70% of the PLP think "the leftwards move is correct" anyway ?
I'm not sure they do, its the "not Jeremy" vote
You mean they're LYING ?!?!
Jamba - that video reinforces my belief that a new UKIP leader could very effectively move the party from the right to reposition themselves on the centre left
^^^ agreed, seen this a bit already with Farage and Front Nationale in France have many left wing policies and have been most successful in traditional working class areas (eg Calais and South around Marseilles).
[img] 
?imgmax=800[/img]
So what's this far-right socialism going to be called ?
Neue Arbeit?
Now if I had Jamie's skills I'd photoshop "Kinder Gentler Politics" across the top and Vote Corbyn in the bottom corner.
I'd photoshop "Kinder Gentler Politics" across the top and Vote Corbyn in the bottom corner.
Because you want to make a connection between far-right socialism and Corbyn ?
Socialism without Immigration
Vote UKIP!
* We may also look after the wealthy
** There may be some immigrants
*** Definitions of Socialism may vary
Watching the Newsnight link above lead me to this:
I've not really bought the bullying 'orchestrated by Corbyn' line up until now but the last line of this is a bit chilling.
"Jamba - that video reinforces my belief that a new UKIP leader could very effectively move the party from the right to reposition themselves on the centre left"
Already did. There was the meme going round at the last Election comparing Green and UKIP policies.
ernie_lynch - MemberSo what's this far-right socialism going to be called ?
[img]
?imgmax=800[/img]Christianity?
outofbreath - yes indeed, I saw that too.
Kinder gentler to me (Corbyn), deselection and online abuse to you.
Anti racism campaigner and Chairman of Stop the War, a coalition to include Hamas and Hezbollah supporters who wish to completely eradicate the State of Israel.
LGBT campaigner who associates and describes those same people as friends who regularly persecute and even execute homosexuals for crimes of "moral outrage".
"he is going to get annihilated"
He certainly is.
"Seriously, they are desperate."
They certainly are.
"Kinder gentler to me (Corbyn), deselection and online abuse to you.
Anti racism campaigner and Chairman of Stop the War, a coalition to include Hamas and Hezbollah supporters who wish to completely eradicate the State of Israel.
LGBT campaigner who associates and describes those same people as friends who regularly persecute and even execute homosexuals for crimes of "moral outrage"."
Yeah, I've never doubted he keeps pretty unpleasant company and you can see his 10,000 strong force outside NEC meetings so there is a gang of enforcers.
What I doubted was that he was personally orchestrating threats/bullying etc. There seemed no evidence for it and from what I've seen he's personally quite pleasant. That video has changed my mind a bit. He seems to me to be calling for exactly the kind o nastyness the current MPs seem to be suffering from. (I'm sure some of them are overplaying it[1], but even so.)
[1] The office break in accusation was especially farcical - seems pretty obvious someone was just poking his head in to see if she was there.
outofbreath - MemberI've not really bought the bullying 'orchestrated by Corbyn' line up until now but the last line of this is a bit chilling.
Chilling?
[i]"And I think they must expect some discomfort from the rank and file in their constituencies"[/i] is chilling ? Are you being serious ??
This was clearly an angry young man who thought that politicians, especially politicians who purported to leftwing, should be held accountable for what they actually did. I couldn't agree more.
If this comes as a surprise to you then you have no understanding at all to why Corbyn has become so popular, especially among the young and disillusioned, and why he is viewed as such a threat by the political elite.
As David Graeber of the LSE said recently :
[b][i]The real concern is not any justified fear among the Labour establishment of bullying and intimidation – the idea that the weak would bully the strong is absurd. It is that they fear being made truly accountable to those they represent. [/i][/b]
BTW these are the full minutes of the last local Momentum meeting I attended :
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8RjphtUU1BHMDZRSE5XU3p5bDRnWEVCb0lCRnhCVnZheV9v/view?pref=2&pli=1
You will note that the very first item on the agenda is "Code of Conduct". Read the paragraph under it in the agenda.
And it provides a direct link to first to the Momentum code of conduct : http://www.peoplesmomentum.com/ethics
[i]Individuals and groups using the Momentum name and branding must operate according to the following principles at all times:
? As the successor to Jeremy Corbyn's Leadership Campaign, Momentum promotes the values that Jeremy popularised during the campaign, of fair, honest debate focused on policies, not personal attacks or harassment.
? Momentum seeks to build positive relationships with Constituency Labour Parties, trade unions and other Labour movement or campaigning organisations that share its aims and principles.
? Momentum seeks to reach out across the community and encourages the participation of people who may not have been involved in political activities before. Ensuring the safety and self expression of everyone is a priority, especially of those who are often marginalised on the basis of their gender, sexuality, ethnicity, race, religion, class, disability and educational or economic status.
? Groups of individuals may form local Momentum Groups to share ideas, organise and participate in activities at their local level, which demonstrate how 'socialist values' and collective effort can make a positive social and/or environmental impact. These groups must be democratic in their nature and be organised around a spirit of collaboration, inclusion and respect.
? Momentum is wholly committed to working for progressive political change through methods which are democratic, inclusive and participatory.[/i]
And it concludes in bold :
[i][b]Failure to abide by this code of ethics may result in suspension or permanent exclusion from Momentum meetings, online groups and/or membership.[/i][/b]
Then it provides a direct link to Corbyn's Code of Conduct :
http://www.jeremyforlabour.com/code_conduct
[i]All Labour Party members and supporters should conduct themselves with a high standard of behaviour. This debate is about politics, not personalities, and personal abuse of any nature will not be accepted.
There should be no personal hostility and nobody should feel intimidated at any time. So no foul or abusive language will be tolerated and all candidates should be listened to with courtesy and respect at hustings, meetings and events.
In particular, there should be no demonstrations or protests targeting any individual candidate or outside any MP’s office or surgery - and no personal heckling of any candidate at any hustings, meeting or event.
There will be no tolerance of abuse on social media. All candidates should ensure that anyone who acts in an abusive way on social media is referred to the Party for investigation.
We celebrate the diversity of our Party as a place where sexist, racist, anti-Semitic, Islamophobic, homophobic, or other discriminatory or offensive abuse, has no place.[/i]
A question our resident momentum expert can answer is
Failure to abide by this code of ethics may result in suspension or permanent exclusion from Momentum meetings, online groups and/or membership.
how many people have been suspended? How many excluded?
Or is it all messaging by our Croydon Communist and fellow travellers
As for the Labour Party under JC
All candidates should ensure that anyone who acts in an abusive way on social media is referred to the Party for investigation.
When does Shami get her peerage?
She's turned it down numerous times. (she said on Newsnight the other night)
She's turned it down numerous times. (she said on Newsnight the other night)
But accepted this time, have they upped the offer or does she need a new day job now she has joined the labour party?
Thanks for posting Momentum Minutes.
How is it known that 25k new members are from SWP etc? Is it from a question on the joining/supporting form?
I might have missed it, but is there equivalent data for (say) Tory Members who have registered as £3/£25/supporters?
**** me
I've been watching this unfold with interest and can now only conclude that at least a coupla posters are hardcore, died in the wool, intellectual ****ing nazis!!!
**** you ****s
You're very shouty, Yunki.
Usually about the same time in the evening. Is it happy hour? 😉
Also....is this Godwin's, or has that already occurred in the last 230 pages?
outofbreath - MemberThanks for posting Momentum Minutes.
How is it known that 25k new members are from SWP etc? Is it from a question on the joining/supporting form?
I don't genuinely know what you are referring to, I don't think there's anything in the minutes about the SWP, and the SWP don't have 25k members anyway, maybe 2.5k members in total.
And yes you are asked if you are a member of any other party. Obviously people could trying lying but as you probably know the SWP, for example, are very vocal, any local SWP members would be known to other local activists, you tend to meet each other in the course of your activities - local issues, trade unions, etc.
"You're very shouty, Yunki."
To be honest, this thread has a similar effect on me too. Especially the nonsense about wanting a Ducati when all Yunki was talking about was being able to do a proper day's work in order to be able to feed his family. Just utterly missing the ****ing point.
Really clod hopper? Is that what you drew from my comment? Here you go i was using my lack of true want or need for a Ducati V my true want and need for a nice home and quality of life I. E in this country if you truly want/need something you can get it regardless of the horrible thieving ****s who run the place.
Momentum Code of Conduct etc
And according to their own rules and code of conduct, UKIP don't tolerate racism...
Ok Yunki and clod hopper how much do you think the average worker outside London should be paid for a proper days work? Genuine question? What is an acceptable living wage
And according to their own rules and code of conduct, UKIP don't tolerate racism...
And they actually have thrown people out, maybe not enough, but still action not words
Still waiting for our Croydon Communist and momentum activist to give us any numbers on Momentum disciplinary actions, or all members political saints and as Len alleged all the nastiness from UK security services in a false flag operation?
big_n_daft - Member
Or is it all messaging by our Croydon Communist and fellow travellers
How interminably dull
But accepted this time
Has she?
With Jezza consolidating control, it provided much better context for studying both the cuculidae and Aaaronovitch families - just finished "Party Animals" - the latter bringing a few smiles to the face when reading this thread. Aaaronovitch's reference to Freud's "narcissism of minor difference," in the context of LW sectarianism was particularly apt...."our similarities meant that any disagreement at all was unbearable." 😉
Party Animals was Lucy Kellaways recommendation in the FT's book for summer. Actually interesting but like its subject matter ultimately disappointing.
Varoufakis' "And the weak suffer what they must? Europe, Austerity (the real version) and the threat to Global Stability" is much better and a good read
"There should be no personal hostility and nobody should feel intimidated at any time."
I can't reconcile this with JC calling for people who didn't vote the way he wanted in '81 to be made to feel some discomfort for a few months.
Varoufakis is hilarious. He plays a significant role in wrecking his own economy then does a massive tour of the UK telling us we should do all the things that wrecked his economy!
? As the successor to Jeremy Corbyn's Leadership Campaign, Momentum promotes the values that Jeremy popularised during the campaign, of fair, honest debate focused on policies, not personal attacks or harassment.
Oh to be the member of a political organisation that has to remind its members not to attack others.
I bet Cheltenham Conservative Ladies Club has "don't shank other bitches" in its Code of Conduct.
I bet Cheltenham Conservative Ladies Club has "don't shank other bitches" in its Code of Conduct.
[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/12009338/Tory-party-accused-of-failing-to-act-on-complaints-of-sexual-harassment.html ]harassment is more of a sexual nature in the tory party.[/url]
Varoufakis is hilarious. He plays a significant role in wrecking his own economy then does a massive tour of the UK telling us we should do all the things that wrecked his
I beg to differ....while I disagree with many of the large logic jumps and assumptions he makes, his account of the crisis is very interesting not least the insights it gives into the mindset of the Euro elite.
There were many players involved in Greece's crisis. To suggest that I was the fault of only one of them requires a level of myopia that would keep spec savers in business for ever!
"I beg to differ...."
It did strike me that making an ill informed comment on him to someone who had just read a book by him was dumb, but I just missed the 10 min edit deadline when I tried to remove my statement.
There are a couple of good TV/Radio interviews with him around outofbreath.
Worth having a listen. It was quite interesting to hear his case for UK Remain.
Welcome back tmh. IMF IEO report was interesting / a statement of the bleeding obvious. Greece should have defaulted and exited the euro in 2010, they still have the same choice today. Varoufakis wants everone else's cake and to eat it too. Eurozne and their IMF stooges are naturally protecting their own countries - their currency has failed, thats a big deal and not something they want to own up to. Best to kick that can down the road and let it be someone else's problem.
Ernie those momentum rules / code of conduct are prety weak, if you breach them you [b]may[/b] be suspended. The Labour Party didn't even properly vet Naz Shah's social media history and she's a sitting MP. We know the checks and monitoring they are doing on Momentum members - zero. Plus I am sure the Momentum trolls have multiple accounts to disguise their hardcore abuse.
Ernie those momentum rules / code of conduct are prety weak, if you breach them you may be suspended. The Labour Party didn't even properly vet Naz Shah's social media history and she's a sitting MP.
It poses the question that if you set up an organisation with its own name, rules and membership (that is not restricted to LP members) at what point does it become a prohibited party within a party?
[img] 
[/img]
Welcome back tmh
Thank you - haven't been away, just passively observing in amusement! And trying to nail three interesting books - two of Varoufakis and the Aaronovitch one!
Greece should have defaulted and exited the euro in 2010, they still have the same choice today. Varoufakis wants everone else's cake and to eat it too.
Default - yes of course, everyone including V knows that the basic debt dynamics don't work. But the whole exercise has not been about Greece, it has been about protecting the creditors in an appaling display of economic and political assymetry and vandalism. On that point I agree wholeheartedly with V and therefore disagree with your conclusion about the cake! But we have different opinions on who is to blame for the Greek crisis after all!!
Eurozne and their IMF stooges are naturally protecting their own countries - their currency has failed, thats a big deal and not something they want to own up to. Best to kick that can down the road and let it be someone else's problem
V, you and I would however all agree on that point. We would differ in what to do about it. I would prefer not to deal with it in the context of isolationisn and antagonisation of our closest trading partners. But hey, ho....we reap what we so.
Anyway there is/was a thread about that. Back to Cuba coffee mornings and choosing the best of a bad bunch to lead the HM Opposition.
And I want to read two more chapters of the Global Minotaur!!
I so unbelievably fed up with spin.
It seems to have gone into overdrive in the past few months.
I hadn't heard this story, but it seems that nothing can happen in politics without it being misrepresented from all sides:
"I reckon the personal bullying Jamba is subjected to is utterly out of order and the excuses people make for it (he likes it really/he deserves it) are the text book excuses of the bully."
At first, I thought this. I soon realised that it wasn't actually bullying, just people sick of Jamba's revisionism, propagation of lies and misinformation, and downright ignorance. Because in the real world, such behaviour is dangerous. And leads to fear, mistrust and hatred. Jamba has it within his power to change his behaviour, become more self aware and educate himself with facts. If he choses not to do so, then he should expect to be challenged.
I dont think you can bully someone by simply pointing out they are factually incorrect.
The problem is he does not care and the folk realise this so just take the piss with jambyfact and the like- what else can you do when he does not care about facts?
I am sure sometimes it oversteps the mark and i am sure i have done it but you just cannot spout incorrect "facts" and think you wont be challenged/mocked/ridiculed
such behaviour is dangerous
Why? Is the Internet going to burst out of your screen and eat you or something?
And leads to fear, mistrust and hatred
How about taking ownership of your own emotions?