You mean like the tories assertion that labour 'crashed the economy'? This is my point, building a popular narrative (god I hate that word) and telling the truth are not necessarily dependent on one another.
Thing is, that its no good calling it a lie when theres an element of truth in it.
I refer you back to the comments by Blair in 'A Journey' and Joshua Chambers that I quoted some time ago here: http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/question-for-those-who-voted-conservative/page/2
its the fact that when the Conservatives were building the narrative of of 'crashing the economy' Labour chose not to engage with it, but distance themselves from the past and either ignore the allegations, or castigate them as a 'bare faced lie' and refuse to accept [b]any[/b] responsibility - if they had said "yes we made some mistakes but it wasn't all our fault" then people probably would have taken that on board, but Labours position of flat denial was, and remains, untenable.
Blair was spot on in his analysis on this.
On a related note, I wonder how the tories are planning on spinning a new financial crisis if and when it happens on their watch. This time even they won't be able to blame it on the labour party.
If we stay in, its because of the EU, if we leave, its because we left the EU, either way its not the Tories fault, it was decided by referendum (They have been taking notes from the SNP 😉 )
I was at a conference in C'bridge at the time of the first poll that indicated a yes in the Scottish indie vote - I was with two senior Tory and Labour ministers/shadows at the time and challenged them both on why they did not counter the blatant lies being spouted by yS.
Apparently, this is not the current strategy (as taught by the pros (sic) coming from the US). They prefer not to go to head-to-head but rather to move to their own ground instead. Almost cost us all in Scotland. Pretty crass advice IMO
Labour tried unsuccessfully to blame the banks - with Brown always referring to the Global Financial crisis caused by the banks as a ploy. Worked for a bit, but not enough in the end.
The more rabid Tories/tolerant UKIPers 😉 try the same with migrants now
if they had said "yes we made some mistakes but it wasn't all our fault"
So the labour party is required to be balanced and even-handed, whilst the tories are allowed to throw around blatantly untrue accusations whilst denying their own culpability? It really is amazing the difference in standards that the two sides have to uphold.
As an aside, where are we on the resignations versus sackings pendulum these days? Are resignations still on top?
So the labour party is required to be balanced and even-handed, whilst the tories are allowed to throw around blatantly untrue accusations whilst denying their own culpability? It really is amazing the difference in standards that the two sides have to uphold.
Helps when you've got virtually all of the press and media under your control/on side to 'set the agenda' doesn't it.
[s]A not unfair criticism in the main to be fair but this is not a debate its just tories citing things. [/s]\sorry I meant to deny I am partidan and that I am bashing one side and explain how my comments were moderate, fair and reasonable...you know like you did 😉Unforunately we can't all be paragons of even-handedness like yourself.
No issue with the even handed nature of the rest of your post 😀
Keep it up 😛
So the labour party is required to be balanced and even-handed, whilst the tories are allowed to throw around blatantly untrue accusations whilst denying their own culpability? It really is amazing the difference in standards that the two sides have to uphold.
As THM said: "history is written by the winners" - or as Tony Blair put it:
[i]If Labour wants to come back, it has to realise just how quickly defeat has altered the political landscape. It means the Tories get to clear up the economic deficit and define its nature, and can do so while pointing the finger of blame at the previous government.
[/i]
Helps when you've got virtually all of the press and media under your control/on side to 'set the agenda' doesn't it.
You mean like Blair did?
Just answer the question- its not even a question
Obviously having the press repeat the lie helps them tremendously and no one - well you can "argue" anything" would argue the press is anythign other than mainly on The tory side - and the BBC increasingly scared of annoying them whilst the charter issue is real.
Short term history is written by the winners long term it is not.
As THM said: "history is written by the winners" - or as Tony Blair put it:
There's a huge difference between defining recent history, and changing the goalposts which allows one party to pretty much say anything they like with no comeback, whereas the other party must show complete transparency, honesty and objectivity. I use the word very advisedly, but we are still supposed to have some form of democratic accountability.
The last thing labour needs is anyone reporting anything they say at the moment. A media blackout could only help JC in the polls.
😀
especially given the blatant media bias!! 😉
Brown shirts at Auntie
Apparently, this is not the current strategy (as taught by the pros (sic) coming from the US). They prefer not to go to head-to-head but rather to move to their own ground instead. Almost cost us all in Scotland. Pretty crass advice
But you won! Doesn't that vindicate the strategy?
No it's doesn't. That's the danger of "winning" - far too easy to draw the wrong conclusions as the Crosby stuff highlights only too well.
yS came very close to pulling off one of the great con tricks of recent political history - not seen since the lies over the original entry into Europe. At least in that case the guilty parties have largely admitted their deceipt.
Democratic accoutability? For better or worse, isn't that the point of elections?
There's a huge difference between defining recent history, and changing the goalposts which allows one party to pretty much say anything they like with no comeback, whereas the other party must show complete transparency, honesty and objectivity. I use the word very advisedly, but we are still supposed to have some form of democratic accountability.
Like it, don't like it, no skin off my nose - it worked!
You could argue that what the Tories did with the economy is exactly what Labour successfully did with NHS privatisation and student loans, but you don't seem to be overly upset about them lying through their teeth to create a false narrative on those issues...
Apparently the Shadow cabinet was briefed that May elections will be "not so good" (my quote)
Major loss of council seats and control in a number of Midland constituencies (exactly the sort of ground they must be winning to regain power)
Loss of their effective majority in the Welsh parliament
Loss of every FPTP seat in Holyrood with only representation coming from awards of seats on overall vote percentage
Rumours of more senior departures
Who said that?
briefed that May elections will be "not so good"[b] (my quote)[/b]
😀
but you don't seem to be overly upset about them lying through their teeth to create a false narrative on those issues...
On the contrary, a cursory look through my past posts on this and other subjects will show that I'm no apologist for new labour and their disastrous experiments with PFI etc. However the technicalities of hospital and school building and university funding hardly amount to a 'narrative' on a par with ' labour crashed the economy' or some other fiction like 'fixing the roof when the sun is shining' etc.
Loss of their effective majority in the Welsh parliament, if that comes true then Labour are well and truly ****ed. The whole cynical point of the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly were to cement Labours position in those areas. It's possible that within 15 years of them being setup that they'll control neither!
Was Blair Labours answer to David Lloyd-George? I don't think that was the legacy he was looking for 😆
Just like how Labour were due a crushing defeat at the last by-election and the National Front would make massive gains at the last French election.
It's a shame when dreams don't match up to reality isn't it jamba - but it's ok your astonishing ability to blithely carry on convincing yourself how right you are about everything remains undimmed. 😆
he whole cynical point of the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly were to cement Labours position in those areas. It's possible that within 15 years of them being setup that they'll control neither!
The pint of the Scotch Parliament was to head off the independence movement - the Scotch should be given enough power so that they didn't want to bother asking for more. Unfortunately many in the electorate thought the Scottish government did such an amazing job that they should go independent!
It's all good news that labour lost control of London, Scotland and Wales (and were never really in NI), all of which devolved - it's called functioning democracy.
Unfortunately many in the electorate thought the Scottish government did such an amazing job that they should go independent!
No danger of that with the Welsh Assembly 😆
The whole cynical point of the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly were to cement Labours position in those areas.
Probably why they used PR in both assemblies- to cement their power it woud clearly be an effective method.
By all means object to them but at least try and make the reason one that is real and not just a fiction of your own making
your astonishing ability to blithely carry on convincing yourself how right you are about everything remains undimmed.
Its the only faculty he has that has not been dimmed 😉
it's called functioning democracy.
I suppose attempting to gerrymander constituency borders, excluding swathes of (mostly poor) people from the electoral role, cutting direct govt funding for opposition parties, and changing the law to undermine the financial security of your main competitor also fit into your neat concept of 'functioning democracy'? Some others might call it a flagrant and transparent attempt to rig future elections but I guess that depends on what side of the fence you're on.
...attempting to [b]un[/b]gerrymander constituency borders...
I'd be interesting in reading that opposing view 5thElefant - do you have any article links?
Functioning Democracy?
isnt it just us that have 26 free spots for Bishops in parliament
oh wait Iran does that too, so we are in good company
I'd be interesting in reading that opposing view 5thElefant - do you have any article links?
I find it hard to believe you've missed this. Tories needing more votes than labour to gain a majority has been accepted wisdom for years.
I'll let you do the googling.
Tories needing more votes than labour to gain a majority has been accepted wisdom for years.
True. The system is so stacked against the tories that they are proposing to correct this grave injustice by bringing in PR. Oh wait..
Functioning Democracy?
isnt it just us that have 26 free spots for Bishops in parliament
oh wait Iran does that too, so we are in good company
Functioning, not perfect. I'd sling the bishops and remaining hereditary lords out immediately (ditto the monarchy).
But bracketing the UK (and Scotland in particular, with free and contested local, Scottish, UK and European elections) with Iran is just self-evidently silly.
We don't even need the ridiculous anachronism of the HoL to have shoddy democracy in this country:
I'll let you do the googling.
ok - I've googled.
Borders based on any kind of political leaning seems completely ridiculous to me. If it was done like this in the past, that that's rubbish, but doing it again based on the same thought process seems equally skewed.
[quote=grum ]We don't even need the ridiculous anachronism of the HoL to have shoddy democracy in this country:
> http://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/the-moment-18-mps-in-a-committee-most-people-have-never-heard-of-axed-maintenance-grants-for-england-a6814151.html
br />
Not so sure on that one - not that I agree with the outcome- but committees have to make some decisions and the party in power has the power in the committees as well so sometimes its just done to make the whole thing happen quicker. Had parliament debated this we would have the same outcome as the tories are in charge there as well.
In this case they seem to have abused this process to pass unpopular legislation on the quiet. I am sure all Govts have done this and that is questionable.
Borders based on any kind of political leaning seems completely ridiculous to me.
They weren't (and won't be). It's just the quirks of trying to create geographic constituencies when population densities vary of time.
I can't see how anyone could argue there aren't too many of them, so getting rid of some can only be good. I'd keep 100, and get rid of the lords, the scottish parliament, the welsh assembly, whatever the irish ones called and go back to unpaid counsellors. We could all have our own personal nurse with the money saved.
You cannot remove the Irish or the Scottish one without major issues surfacing. Which are you most keen an outbreak of the troubles in Ireland or more pushing for Scottish independence?
Yeah, I know, we're stuck with a cobbled together mess with endless pointless hangers on be paid to do nothing useful. Come the glorious revolution... *
*and we're back on topic.
go back to unpaid counsellors.
Why?
Why?
Exactly.
MPs used to be unpaid on principle but then they realised it favoured the independently wealthy since they could afford to do the job unpaid.
Plus the MEPs ffs! Too many 'members'
What's Corbyn's pitch going to be in Scotland ? Is he going to take on the SNP head on on their record in government ? Moaning about the Tories isn't going to het him very far up there,
What's Corbyn's pitch going to be in Scotland ?
Well I guess it'll be something along the lines of labour being the real anti-austerity party, as opposed to the SNP who talk big, but deliver much less. It's a pretty obvious line of attack, but I wonder if in addition to this, an argument that labour are much better able to deliver real change for Scotland by combining the economic and political power of Scotland and the North of England. He could for instance embrace the Northern Powerhouse concept and propose including Edinburgh and Glasgow, forming an economic and political alliance to deliver economic prosperity combined with social justice and fairness. Just an idea....
SNP baaadWhat's Corbyn's pitch going to be in Scotland ?
scotroutes - Member
What's Corbyn's pitch going to be in Scotland ?
SNP baaad
Put them Scots to hard Labour? Get it? Hard Labour! 😆