I’d love a 911 still but resigned to never being able to afford one. I did have a BMW Z4 coupe which I sold and now regret pretty much every day. Super little car, happy to be used as a daily driver (had the 3.0l engine with automatic transmission) and sounded great. I’m tempted to get another if I find myself with some spare cash one day.
The man wants a 911. Why suggest an entirely different car?
It’s a good point, but this wouldn’t be STW if someone didn’t do that, and it was my turn. <br /><br />
It was based on some experience of the massive anxieties and costs that can accompany the joys of complex sports car ownership. And the absolute unrivalled joy of a well sorted MX5 on a twisty back road.
My 911 experience: bought a 997.2 at the very start of the pandemic, sold it two years and 5000 miles later for 10% more than I paid. Those days are probably over but if you pick the right model (and you have to get really into the minutiae of the spec - no sunroof etc) they're a fairly safe bet. Your budget will determine the model: £20-35k ropey and possibly risky 996, 997.1; £35-45k base model 997.2 (much safer proposition); £45-65k more exotic 997s (turbo, GTS), 991.1, cheaper 991.2s etc. Don't ignore the mid-model refreshes - usually important updates are released, such as entirely new engines for 997, 991, or better steering (991.2 etc). There are lots of opinions on each of the models - youll have to make up your own mind about whether the 991 and 992s are too big etc.
I'd still buy another 911 but I have zero interest in any other sports cars. But there are only a couple of models that I'd consider. As for the driving experience, I found mine to be very practical and reliable. I could fit a (road) bike in the back, or on the roof and I took it all over France and Spain. I'd take it to the garden centre and load up with compost. It was a lot more mannered than I was expecting and was happy to cruise along doing 30mpg+, the fun only really starts above 5000rpm, which you never reach in this country.
Rent one for a week. See if the idea lives up to the reality.
https://www.supercarexperiences.com/manufacturers/porsche/
that track day seems a good idea
The one that @Bullet suggested yes, driving a 911 in a safe environment the way it’s intended and a lunch many times over for the pricing of owning your own. With that suggestion I could look at an exhaust rumbling second hand estate for daily use instead.
Mrs K said I made a mistake at the weekend (taxiing Jnr around with many hours spent thinking on my own whilst he completed sports events) in that I should have taken our tow bar/rack enabled Sportage and live with my fun-er car just for work/times that don’t need 2 bikes and tri equipment fitted into the boot. But with 350 miles driven I kinda wanted it to have be all at the same time - enjoying my environment while I am actually a cycling based dads taxi .
Maybe the growling estate idea has legs then, but the OP was based on when we don’t have kids at home, and the two cars would be our use - one everyday capable and the other for summer fun. And maybe yes, I should go “fast wagon” - even a saloon - now using the Sportage for utility. The girls don’t cycle, so we are never in a position to need two cars both carrying bikes. <br /><br />
I still want to own a 911.
This was my daily driver for many years, rain, shine, gritted roads the lot
They are a pleasure to drive year round, so much grip (engine over driven axle).
Mine was an early '99 3.4, no bore issues on these, no IMS bearing issues. Cable throttle, hydraulic steering, no PASM just perfect.
I would get 30+ mpg on a divine B road commute and general car use.
4 seater, so it hung around until car seats became awkward. I cried when I sold it.
I bought it for £7000 (needing suspension and clutch) and sold it for £9500 years later.
I now have this which cost me £2500 a couple of months back:
Its 90% as good, its an early '98 2.5 again cable throttle, hydraulic steering and no PASM.
However maintenance on a boxster will be the same as a 911, the parts are the same, the engine is the same. Just get a 911 if you have the spare readies.
Do what you can to experience one, learn to drive it properly. They are Peak ICE, nobody is making anything like this anymore.
Am in no rush to get rid of it but have wondered wether an older S3/RS3 would be a better fit though
No, they wouldn't. They're so dull compared to something like a boxter/cayman etc. They are unfeasibly fast down a country lane though, but so boring. I've no idea how a car can be that fast but also that boring.
No, they wouldn’t. They’re so dull compared to something like a boxter/cayman etc. They are unfeasibly fast down a country lane though, but so boring. I’ve no idea how a car can be that fast but also that boring.
2nded
I've had some fast big cars, they are dull apart from a straightline, pointless waste of hydrocarbons.
911/boxster/cayman are a very rewarding drive. Another level to an mx-5 (mx-5 are not the bargain they once were either).
Just to add mine have not been expensive to maintain. Its the rip off labour rates and the desire to keep them "perfect" that costs. Any mechanic can work on them, just nuts and bolts and parts from autodoc are not much more than any other car.
I'm not qualified to comment as I have mostly earned **** all and even if I could afford a 911 these days I doubt I'd bother, apart from an early ish one. I did consider cancelling some building work on my house when a 912 came up 15 years ago tho!
Having owned and loved an MX5 and Smart Roadster, something like that is where my money would go - but that's BC I don't have much. Lots of fun at reasonable speeds, cheap as chips and lots of hairdresser comments from most petrol heads - perfect!
The is STW. There are only 2 car options, which only vary by the question being asked, Octavia and MX5
There's a reason for that ya know.
If I could have a BBR turbo'd NC and and Octavia wagon I'd be set for life.
Stop buggering about with this BBR turbo nonsense and just get an RX7. The handling is every bit as good as a '5, with the added practicality of a roof (and possibly, tiny rear seats, spec dependent) and also the excitement of not knowing whether or not you'll finish the day with all the bits that make the engine work still inside the engine.
But on a general note, special cars are not a head choice, they're a heart choice. If you try and distill it down to logic, you'll never commit.
But it will be absolutely worth it for multiple reasons, like as the smile on small people's faces, and the giggles from driver and passenger(s).
Fast estates and fast hatches are fast, but they're very rarely as fun. I had a lightly tuned Saab Aero and it was very much a one trick pony. I've been in other faster estates as well, and the tactility of the drive just isn't there.
Get the 911, is very unlikely you'll lose money if you don't like it and sell it on after a while.
The main difference between my 911 and other fastish cars I've owned was that from 70-100mph the 911 was only just getting into it's stride. Mine was a 997, the newer ones are even faster.
It's very easy to go very very fast in one (license losing or even potentially prison time), if you're making progress and aren't paying strict attention to your speed and exercising a lot of self control. To be honest it frightened me after one stupid moment on an A road. Not so much in scared for myself, but for how much of a being a dick it enabled in me.
That was a large part of the reason that I sold it.
And the absolute unrivalled joy of a well sorted MX5 on a twisty back road.
Yeah, if I got another fun car, I'd probably get one of those or an A110 (base spec).
Bizarrely, one of the funnest cars to drive that I've owned was a Honda Jazz.
Wheel at each corner, and you had to have it pretty much on it's door handles to get anywhere at a reasonable speed, and it had a really snickety gear box.
These are from the Silverstone Porsche Experience last time. The GT4RS was just beautiful 😍Go for it! But warranty!
I was in a very fortunate position of being able to order a 991.2 GTS for myself & I'm glad that I did. I don't think these kinds of cars will be around forever so experience one before it's too late if that's your thing. It was far too fast for public roads & only roads with very tight bends & short straights would allow me to use it in anger, it was eye-wateringly expensive to buy & run, I had huge concerns where I parked it & I was scared stiff of any mechanical work that it might have needed but it was utterly fabulous, well worth the hassle. Don't forget about the warranty!!
Warranty is key, as is buying one from a reputable dealer is just as important - new or old. I joined a Porsche forum (911UK I think) and the knowledge on there was amazing & helped me immensely. Did I mention warranty? 🙂
What's your budget, where do you live, how much are you prepared to do yourself, and probably most importantly, have you ever driven one?
I bought a cheap 964 ten years ago. It had a massive oil leak and a week's MoT left. I managed to get it on a ramp to ascertain that it wasn't rotten and that was that. Ten years later it's been all over Europe with me and I can't ever see me selling it.
Oil changes from Porsche - for keeping history up, if you care about that - aren't actually that expensive. I think the older 997s fall under the Classic Programme now. My 964 was £200 for an oil change and a stamp in the book, so the cost difference between buying the oil and filters yourself and dealing with waste oil afterwards wasn't worth it.
Every part is available. Literally. My thirty year old ignition switch was becoming temperamental earlier this year and the replacement bought was a genuine part that had been made last year. I think it was 115€.
They are huge now, though. The 964's a dainty wee thing but a 997 absolutely isn't. I know a Boxster or Cayman isn't what you want, but try one. It might actually be exactly what you want!
Interesting.
I disagree with the posts about the RS cars being boring. Im currently running an RS4 V8 and its much more of an event to drive than the M3 V8 it replaced.
There are cars that are faster, handle better, look cooler etc.
Decide what you want. Not what you need. and buy that* it sounds liek you want a 911. it doent have to make sense.
* having said that i hanker after a Chimera but after driving one and realising its a horrible daily im struggling to part with my cash.
[i]* having said that i hanker after a Chimera but after driving one and realising its a horrible daily im struggling to part with my cash. [/i]
I have done that with a couple of cars. There was a huge desire and huge apprehension. My approach was to buy them with a mental note that you might sell them again in 3 months if they are as bad as you fear or keep them if they are as good as you hope. On the cars I have done this I made about £1,000 on one and lost about the same on the other but both ticked the box and got rid of the feeling of unrequited want.
I might have to stop reading for a bit, the last few posts have me thinking about immediately and without thought popping out to the local Audi and trading the 320d to an RS4 😂
do it, but get an old one.
I have 2 mates with 911's. Well, i have one mate with one and one mate who is still recovering from his little shunt he had in his a few weeks back....
But before this, he very much enjoyed it. The flat six does sound good at full chat!
Another cheap skate boxster owner here
270 bhp is more than enough for road use. One thing that always strikes me is how much ‘faster’ it feels to drive than my big saloon mazda 6, even when you are going slower. On a country road 60 in the boxster feels much much faster.
its surprisingly practical as well with two boots. And you can pick them up for peanuts.
downsides are it gets through petrol at the rate of about 15/ gallon, and maintenance is a pain due to it being mid engined. Cost me well north of 3 k to replace the clutch, and that involved replacing the ims (700 quid for a bearing😳) which can be an issue on old 986 and 911 cars. And if that goes it’s basically going to write off your car.
How TF are you only getting 15mpg out of a Boxster? Is it a Tip 986 and you're constantly sitting in traffic? I did 1,500 miles in a week in a 987 with a former friend a few years ago in all sorts of conditions and still managed late 20s to early 30s!
Have been 911 curious for years. Esp in the days when the 996 version was a cheap as chips. When I retired , I went on the hunt for one - 911 were going through a purple patch and prices went on the up. I couldn't bring myself to pay 35k or more for a 15 year old car.
Started to look and , and test drive Caymans - I could just fit in! Wonderful noise, wonderful to drive - but the practicality is nil - and the thought of having to get in and out at French Peages , or after 150 miles to fill it up made me really look at the proposition.
you would have to go 997 gen 2 (or post 09 Gen 2 if you look at a Cayman). IMS and bore scoring are a big issue and very expensive. I had a friend you loved his 911 eBay purchase - until the IMS bearing went. He sold the car for 8k after buying it for 19K.
Porsche don't own up to anything - but I believe in the USA there has been a class action against them. The IMS bearing issue can be solved by drilling the bearing case so it is no longer starved of oil. There are a few places that can do it - but it is possible 2.5k upwards to be done.
You would want PDK as well.
I then looked at Jag F types - but there is a huge, huge sill that you have to climb in over - and then also get out over. Stunning looking and sound cars - much nicer interior than a 911. But it wasn't a 911 - so I didn't buy.
I just ended up with a very fast soccer mom's SUV
I'd argue that if you want PDK, then you don't want a Porsche at all. Yes, it makes for lightning quick shifts and will shave half a second off a Nürburgring lap time, but it's ultimately joyless and uninvolving.
There's a google chrome plugin which tracks prices on autotrader. Very useful & informative. Prices are dropping across the board atm for all sorts of sports cars.
How TF are you only getting 15mpg out of a Boxster?<br />
Yeah I’m actually talking crap. A quarter of a tank gets me around 80 miles of b road driving, and looking at the car specs thats around 23 mpg
it does feel I’m constantly filling it up however!
The OP mentions the 924 from a visual perspective. I had a 924 and it was a surprisingly good road trip vehicle. I could fit all my camping gear and bike in the back and it was fun driving it along Welsh roads. Sure it wasn't very powerful but there is something to be said for driving a car without much power as it rewards you for reading the road and concentrating on driving. My current car has a mighty 106hp....
My 924 was an mechanical nightmare! It looked nice and I knew enough about its history to think it was a good buy. It was plagued with intermittent non-start issues which two garages could never fix. The headgasket went....twice. One day the car wouldn't turn off! Smoke started coming from the engine bay but luckily I was parking it in my garage and had tools there. I disconnected one of the battery terminals but IIRC the engine still ran. I think I just panicked and stuck the battery lead somewhere I shouldn't and with some sort of electrical 'bang' the engine shut off.
So I'd only buy 'classic' from a reputable source and have it inspected! Even if it does just have largely VW parts.
You could buy a late model 924S though. Same basic engine as the 944 of the time and many updated parts over the standard 924 while keeping the narrower body look. Depends if you are looking at new / newish or a classic. If classic, a mint low mileage 924S (if you can find one) would potentially be a better car for 'normal' people.
Im currently running an RS4 V8
Legend.
Picture please.
The IMS bearing issue can be solved by drilling the bearing case so it is no longer starved of oil. There are a few places that can do it – but it is possible 2.5k upwards to be done<br />
the usual fix is an aftermarket ceramic bearing which costs north of 650 quid. That’s for the part. It’s a clutch out job to fix (or it is for a 986), so you may as well replace that at the same time. If I was spending any sort of money on that vintage of 911 I’d be factoring in the ims replacement which on a boxster cost me over 3 k 8 years ago (I replaced the clutch at same time)
it’s not actually the parts that will ruin you if you have a Porsche, after market parts can be had for a decent price. It’s the labour costs. Main dealers are extortionate. If you can find a good Indy then that’s definitely the way to go.
i can also confirm the best part of Porsche ownership is the first week of ownership. The novelty of accelerating fast soon wears off, you can’t (and shouldn’t) be driving it fast on the roads, and then the bills start rolling in..
Do it. I bought a lovely 996 carrera 2 10 years ago for £9k unseen over eBay. It was a beauty and I enjoyed driving a thousand miles a month for three months before an oil spill on a damp day saw me slide into a lamppost on a dual carriageway and need cutting out of the car. On longer trips the most economical speed was 92 mph which returned 32.5mpg. I used to carry my road bike inside with the wheels off and in the froot. The insurance pay out was higher than purchase price due to the rise in vehicle values and it paid for part of my wedding.
FWIW the then fiancé had no idea what I was doing with an envelope full of fifties and thought it was shady drug deals. When I returned later that Saturday with a 911 she was not amused. She hated that car and the angriest I’ve ever seen her was when she had to drive cross country to get me out of hospital.
Was it quick? Yes if you kept your foot in.
Was it engaging? Very much so. On paper the now-wife’s m240i is more powerful and faster and yet the 911 was a much, much better place to get going and feel what was happening.
Would I do it again? Yes probably. Buy the car, drive it and if it’s not for you then sell it on. If you lose a bit of money then it’s probably no more than you would have lost in interest on a pcp over the same time.
I should also add that I’d have very fast motorbikes previously and whilst the 911 was fast, it wasn’t that fast.
That’s the thing for me with cars like the 911 - the first time I drove one, it was quick (and certainly quick enough to get into trouble on the road), but not mind bendingly quick. Definitely a case of not meeting your hero for me as a long time 911 admirer. To get mind bending quick, you need to be driving a very high end super car/hypercar. <br /><br />
* having said that i hanker after a Chimera but after driving one and realising its a horrible daily im struggling to part with my cash.
these days there are likely better options. z4? or TBH the boxster isn't a bad shout. all the chimaeras are old now though. i ran a chim for 4 or 5 years as my daily and did nearly 50k in my 4L. it was always an event but service intervals are 6k with an inevitable interim visit after something drops off. the ladder frames were made by arch IIRC, the same outfit that made caterham chassis. mine had welding after a few years. great gearbox. engine made a wonderful noise. the suspension was sorted and IMV drove/cornered better than a S2 elise i drove. the last gen TVRs were just fabulous though. tamora etc. very well mannered and easy to drive/flexible at low revs, but tip it over 6krpm and everything went batshit. great cars if you can maintain them.
a workmate recently disposed of his boxster after 180k. you never get the whole story from any owner of a sports car but it appeared to be a reasonable vehicle in terms of day to day cost.
before an oil spill on a damp day saw me slide into a lamppost on a dual carriageway and need cutting out of the car
And why would you not buy one after that endorsement …😂😬😳
I remember the first time I drove my boxster in the wet. The garage selling it had cheaped out on tyres and I almost ended up in a hedge accelerating off a round about. I replaced the very next day with something a bit more suitable..
I lived in Los Angeles in the early ‘00s and owned a guards red 964 convertible. It was a wonderful thing. I live Dumfries and Galloway now and drive a 15 year old Kia Picanto, I think I actually love the Picanto more.
On the RS4 front - lets say I wanted to own one for a year or two, how old is old and why? I'm toying with it, but our garage exits into the next street via private car park behind 6 flats, I'm pretty sure my 5am starts to some trips are going to piss a few people off....
And with regard to the OP, I don't intend to be living here with the Porsche.
B5 all the way for me - by far the coolest.
Go and drive one and then see if you change your mind.
I went to a Porsche dealer and drive a Boxster 981. Really nice car, amazing sound, fast, bags of grip.
I went away and bought a Merc E-Class
Problem with the Porsche is that it’s bloody quick, lots of grip and can be driven every day. Therefore becomes dull ownership quite quickly
Im very much in the camp these days of an easy to drive car for 90% of the time and then something like a Caterham/ Elise etc for the 10% to make driving special.
Porsches are just too comfortable, fast, grippy to be special on a road after you have had one for more than 6 months
Just read your currently in a 3 series. I won’t buy one again or a 5 series. They handle in such away to tease you in to thinking your in a sports car, but then fail to deliver on the last bit as they are in fact a big family car. The Merc I’m in now has no pretence of that. You know it’s there to get you from A-B in comfort and that’s it.
Get a comfy car and a much more raw weekend car, certainly not an Audi of any description!
It’s an interesting point. It did occur to me that having a sporty dad wagon but deferring to @bullets suggestion of a few Porsche track days is a much cheaper way to experience the car yet let someone else assume the costs of ownership. <br /><br />
I did the same with my E46 330i, the picture on the fridge, endless research etc and the power of universal thought landed me with one. I regret selling that car tbh but it’s a different kettle of fish to 911 ownership. The reality today is I probably need a daily sleeper to avoid attracting the Scrotes, whilst waiting for a two seater in retirement. This issue with that is that the 340i touring (for example) is a £40k car second hand and I’d get roughly £12k only for mine so er, pcp. I was looking at 2018 440i the other day which are cheaper becuase the shape is unpopular albeit the “hatch” would happily swallow a bike and camping gear. <br /><br />The Z4 as an easier retirement alternative to both and appeals to a BMW fanboy.
im going to have a scout around the various clubs as I’m wondering whether a happy medium is to have a Porsche “hobby” - club meets sans ownership with discounted track day potential.
Alex22 thanks for the vid, will watch that later.
Funcydunc, you could be right. Our ‘23 Sportage hybrid is an excellent family utility currently, but Mrs K has already stated she wants to downsize when Jnr drives himself - about 2-3 years and likely that’ll be an all electric hatch - a Cupra Born type thing. So that’ll leave me to own the larger long legged vehicle in the mid term.
Not sure what your total budget is but I’d say comfortable estate (not a fast one) and then mx5 / Caterham etc for weekends
<br />Borrowing a car at a track day is not fulfilling imo
My Porsches have cost me less than a few Porsche track days. Including tracking them...
Tbh the best Porsches are the base models and do not make great track cars. They are fantastic road cars.
I never ever get bored of driving them. I have a boxster and a galaxy now, I never reach for the galaxy key unless I have more than 1 passenger.
I've had mx5s and they are great, but not the bargain they once were when a boxster is better and similar money.
Buy an early boxster right now as as the values are on the floor due to winter, Xmas etc, if you don't like it you will turn a profit in spring/summer
I’ve no where to keep it, remember this is a voyage of discovery leading to a later purchase.
You can leave a 986 on the street. Being older and easier to steal conversely means it's probably less desirable and harder to steal now.
My best pal picked up a 986 for £1200 a few weeks ago. It had sat on a driveway for a good few years at that point. He spent the weekend cleaning it, put a fresh battery in it, and stuck it in for an MoT. It failed on a top mount and brake pipes. He's spending the winter refreshing the suspension with the view to using it all summer. At that money, he literally can't lose money on it. They're still out there...
Borrowing a car at a track day is not fulfilling imo
Agreed. Recently drove a V10 R8, Ferrari 458 and Lamborghini Gallardo on a track day. Fun? Yes absolutely, but you have mere minutes in each car. Basically in, gun it for a few laps, park. No time to actually get to know the car like you do when you own one.
