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Read something earlier regarding Paul Monaghan and Adrian Newey going to the stewards before qualifying regarding the Merc wing flexing too much at speed.
As I said a couple of pages back, RB went to the stewards before qualifying. Watching the in car footage of Hamilton’s car the wing didn’t seem to be flexing anymore than any other car so I’m not sure what RB had allegedly seen, although there is a mention of a suspicion over the main plane as mentioned here
No one seems to have picked up on the rear wing of the RB fluttering or the fact that one of the RB mechanics clearly pushed the test gauge used to test the wing clean through their own car live on tv ie the wing failed the test.
It’s largely irrelevant but I understand why Toto is so pissed off as mentioned previously teams have been given chance to repair similar issues without reprimand.
I’m not so sure Horner would have been so humble if the shoe was on the other foot.
Is it worth changing all aspects of the power train etc at the same time or can they not do that?
Yes and no.
The PUNISHMENT divided into sections, ICE, MGUH, etc. Each bit changed gets a five place penalty.
So Hamilton drops from 5th to 10th for changing his ICE. If he did his turbo too he would be 15th so not worth it.
It might be worth it for, say, Williams. 5 places from an ICE drops them from 15th to 20th, another 5 for a gearbox and they stay 20th.
.
.
Regarding the 'penalise the driver not the team' thing.
Imaging Perez had been rubbish this year. Merc have the constructors sewn up, the drivers is tight. Merc and RB would be both be running totally illegal cars, it won't make any difference to the constructors but they'll want every advantage they can get in the driver's.
It won't work. They win as a team, they lose as a team, they get disqualified as a team.
They sort of did it to McLaren in 2007, they could have won the constructors that year but were disqualified.
Spell checker failure, the capitalised punishment should read the PU is...
.
Anyone remember McLaren's 75 place grid penalty?
And Bottas wonders why he’s being dumped! 🤦♂️
He's hopeless 🙄
Hamilton up five places already. Skill, luck, folk getting out of his way or a combination of all of the above?
Now will Checko take Hamilton out!!? 🤔
Well my bet of Hamilton winning I put on before the sprint race is looking good!
Win or crash would both seem reasonable guesses at the moment
17:13 "Tell Valtteri to follow me, we'll get these guys," says Hamilton.
17:19 Bottas is having to defend from Leclerc as the Ferrari seems to be very switched on at this restart.
that went well then
Aye, Bottas was an absolute chocolate fireguard at the start there!
Undercut on the cards here?!
Well he’s a bit further up the road.. better than nowt
YESSSSS!!!!
Shove that up yer arse Horner!
Max has been incredibly lucky not to pick up penalties on this. It's all getting quite tense and arsey now between RB and Merc.
What a drive from Lewis though!
Classy reply from Max re the black and white flag.
What an absolute weapon.
Will we get to see his onboard anytime soon I wonder?
Verstappens attitude is awful
Team “black and white flag for weaving on the straight”
Him “ha perfect say Hi”
Lucky to not get a penalty for his shenanigans earlier pushing Lewis off the track
Aye was just wondering if we’ll ever get to see that shot bluearsedfly
Loved Totos reaction at the camera in the garage. Gan on son! 😂
Max and Red Bull are made for one another - no class and bad sportsmen.
Well looks like I'm cashing in that bet. Brilliant performance by Lewis and it really exposed how nasty a driver Max is. Warning flag for weaving, pushing drivers off the track and taking the piss out of the stewards on the radio for good measure.
Bottas denied a second there. Five seconds and a black and white flag. Max not worthy if he does win the championship.
What a drive!
Talk of damage limitation from Red Bull seems a bit of a stretch given the free-passes they’ve been given this weekend.
They don't like Max in Brazil, do they? 😂
https://makeagif.com/gif/richard-hammond-bad-winner-uaKNnv
Toto Wolff finding Horner in the paddock trying to make a quick exit.
😂
Edit, dammit how do you post a gif?
They don’t like Max in Brazil, do they? 😂
Or here! He’s such a classy fellow… perfectly suited to red bull’s current behaviour.
Unbelievable stuff. A true champion's performance all weekend. So much for the DSQ from quali deciding the title.
Going to be an intense last 3 races. As much as I dislike Max I still think he'll be deserving of the championship if he holds on but he lacks a touch of class and needs to mature somewhat.
If Lewis wins then this will be the race that was the key. Even dropping 7 points today by coming second would have pretty much been curtains bar a DNF or something.
Definitely more to come regarding the protests from RB about the Merc, listening to Horner after the race he made it clear RB think there’s something going on with the rear wing on the Merc (although Toto is adamant Merc have nothing to hide).
As with everything in life, I always try my best to see things from every perspective. I wouldn’t say I’ve warmed to Max or Horner recently but it was only yesterday morning I was listening to Horner and he came across as quite humble and almost likeable.
Fast forward 24 hours and things have gone against RB, both Max and Horner have slipped back into their usual spiteful ways. Any other team maintains a level of professionalism when things don’t go their way but RB are completely incapable of this from the management down to the mechanics (one of which was taking the piss out of the wing test yesterday on an Instagram post).
Horner also mentioned that Max shouldn’t have been penalised for running Hamilton of the track as Max gained no advantage in doing so. Has anyone ever taken the time to explain to Horner the basic fundamentals of motorsport?
Ps where’s the onboard from Max? Someone mentioned we have to wait for it to be downloaded?
Strange as we can see any other angle from any other car live as it happens.
Edit, dammit how do you post a gif?
Are we not talking about max running Valteri off at T1 cause it was the first lap?
Seems to be a tactic he is refining, run the other guy off the track without touching them, hoping they won’t let him just drive into them, and blame them if he does.
Are we not talking about max running Valteri off at T1 cause it was the first lap?
Glad someone else spotted that, but it probably went down as a first lap incident.
Lewis off to see the stewards again about his safety belt when taking the flag at the end.
You can’t make this up.
It'll be no more than a rap on the knuckles....but on the other hand, with these stewards, who knows!
€5000 fine with another €20000 suspended to next year. Phew...
When was the last time a driver was fined for that? Drivers do it all the time after victories and at home wins etc.
Drivers have always gone around touching each others cars. When was the last time someone was fined for that?
Touché.
That has to be one of the best weekend performance of all time.
@bluearsedfly - it has been enforced before. Its fairly recent its been clamped down in though. Can't remember the precise race though
What an amazing race! Possibly the most exciting race in a ridiculously exciting season
The amazing thing about this weekend is that the stewards have made Mercedes, who have won every title in the turbo hybrid era, look like the underdogs
Good race track that Interlagos.
Toto going all Jurgen Klopp.
Brazilian crowd showing their class, especially considering Lewis pipped their boy to the title all those years ago, it as like a home race for Hamilton.
Mercedes have been the underdogs all season. You could see from the first race just how much the new floor rules had done to their car. Stability was all over the place, their ability to warm the front tyres (possibly partially load of DAS) was woeful and they’ve struggled with it all season. The Redbull on the other hand is more akin to last years Mercedes - it’s easy to setup and easier to drive.
Ultimately Mercedes had a bigger mountain to climb than Redbull as their whole aero philosophy was compromised. They likely assumed that everyone this year would be equally compromised. They were wrong. High rake cars were only slightly affected, whereas Mercedes lost 1.5-1.8s a lap. RedBull was more like 035-0.5 per lap.
Mercedes have recovered some of that deficiency by turning the ICE up, but you can see the effect it’s having on reliability. The car is still compromised, but is MUCH happier at higher speeds where they get the downforce they were expecting and thus the tyres work. That’s why they keep willing taking engine penalties.
That was utterly sublime from Hamilton. How many other drivers would have buckled under the weight of 25 grid place penalties and settled for getting in the points?
Max doesn't make himself easy to like does he? His petulance on the radio after been warned for weaving. Not sure how he avoided a penalty for his "defence" against Lewis either. Similar infringement in previous races have always been penalised.
Its still Max's to lose and with 9 wins to Hamilton's 6 you might say he deserves the title, but if Hamilton can win the next 3 races then he absolutely deserves it too.
Hamilton got driver of the day with 36% of the vote. Who did the other 64% think drove better?
Max doesn’t make himself easy to like does he?
He doesn't seem to handle himself under race pressure well that's for sure. I mean, he's clearly fast, he can qualify and race fast enough, but seems to crack too easily when pushed hard. The maneuver on Hamilton to send them both wide seemed like the stuff of desperation/amateur hour.
Mercedes have recovered some of that deficiency by turning the ICE up, but you can see the effect it’s having on reliability. The car is still compromised, but is MUCH happier at higher speeds where they get the downforce they were expecting and thus the tyres work. That’s why they keep willing taking engine penalties.
It does point to the penalty being insufficient.
I never get this “deserves to win” thing. The only person who deserves to win is the person with the most points! Makes no difference how many races you win, unless it’s a draw at the end.
Which has got me thinking. What if LH wins the next 2 races and MV comes second? If neither gets fastest lap they’ll go into the last race tied on points - spicy!!!
Personally I would love it if MV bins it completely on his own so he loses the WDC and can’t blame anyone but himself.
“ Hamilton got driver of the day with 36% of the vote. Who did the other 64% think drove better?”
I’m surprised he got it at all, in past races he has clearly been the driver of the day but people have voted elsewhere - we all know why.
It does point to the penalty being insufficient.
The rules aren't ever going to be perfect, and teams will always find a way to game them. Plus you have to add in the "Hamilton factor" there's few other drivers capable of going from 10th to 1st in a straight fight (ie without retirements or safety car interventions)
Sometimes the result is focused on more than the performance and specifically the result in the context of the championship.
Hindsight will probably show that regardless what happens in the championship. The performance yesterday will be the thing that people remember. So in that way he has kinda already won.
I'm glad it wasn't for the sake of the racing, but in the cold light of day I still don't understand how that not only wasn't a penalty for Verstappen but wasn't even investigated.
Hamilton was clearly ahead going into the corner, Max makes no attempt to slow enough to make it.
Anyway, what a season!
It does point to the penalty being insufficient.
I'm not sure it does - most of the time when teams take an engine penalty, they go for a whole replacement rather than 1 of the 3 components. Mercedes have determined that the ICE is degrading and are replacing only that. Seems fair. The same options are open to every team afterall.
Not sure how he avoided a penalty for his “defence” against Lewis either.
I wonder if anyone’s asked for Horner’s thoughts on his objections to Hamilton’s line through Copse after Silverstone:
“Hamilton braked late and overshot the corner. He was travelling at such a speed that he was never going to make the apex of the corner and his trajectory through Copse meant he was never going to miss Max, even with braking he ran very wide”
Familiar stuff?
One of the key differences between Max and Lewis seems to be that Lewis is smart enough to understand that crashed cars don’t win races.
Mercedes have determined that the ICE is degrading and are replacing only that. Seems fair. The same options are open to every team afterall.
I thought the idea of the penalty was to allow for levelling-up - reducing the cost of a season and therefore allowing the smaller teams to compete? If the penalty isn't harsh enough then the wealthier teams can simply spend around it.
That certainly was an exciting race to watch. And a sublime drive by Hamilton. He was helped a bit by the safety car but I feel that only brought the inevitable a bit closer. I admit, I do have a soft spot for Hamilton so am conscious to try not to let that cloud my view of the race. I do think that MV is quite the bully on track and feel that the thin line between "hard racing" and "gamesmanship / bullying" is one he crosses more often and easily than others do. The second overtake that Lewis pulled on him you could sense that MV was going to let the car drift wide and Hamilton would do the sensible thing of not fighting it. So I could see him going off track, but then, when the camera panned out and we could see how far off the track both Hamilton and MV had gone I find it staggering that the stewards didn't give a penalty. The weaving was pretty bad but I'm not sure that Hamilton as close enough for it to prevent him overtaking, but it did smack a lot of desperation and intimidation. On the whole, it really does seem as though Merc were treated quiet harshly this weekend and I am quite chuffed that they came through it with the win. Interesting that apparently Horner was on the blower to race control as soon as MV had pushed Hamilton wide saying "this is just hard racing, let them race".
On the other hand, I'm liking Vettel more and more this season. He seems to have grown through the arrogant stuff from his latter days at Red Bull and the clearly troublesome times at Ferrari and is a lot more relaxed and funny. Found his radio commentary about "touching Hamiltons rear wing" quite amusing.
One of the key differences between Max and Lewis seems to be that Lewis is smart enough to understand the fairly simple fact that crashed cars don’t win races.
TBH, I think stuff like this is inevitable when two drivers are in close competition for the title. I do think Max should have had a penalty, but I understand the thinking behind "let them race". The stewards made their decision, time to move on.
The problem for me isn't so much what Max did, it's that Horner and Red Bull are so over-the-top about their complaining when things don't go their way. It's a team's job to support their driver, even when they are at fault, but most teams know that you moan a bit on Sunday afternoon and then just get back to work on Monday. The Red Bull Silverstone thing just made them look like fools. Now their driver has made the same mistake and they don't seem the least bit embarrassed about it.
I’m curious about the reported fact that Red Bull were allowed to work on their rear wing in parc fermé. Haven’t seen much detail on it yet, but on the face of it, it seems extremely odd in light of Hamilton’s penalty.
I’m curious about the reported fact that Red Bull were allowed to work on their rear wing in parc fermé.
Yes, the whole thing with both Red Bull's and Merc's wings is very strange.
That was in Mexico. They saw a problem, asked permission to fix and it was granted. Different to qualifying with a car that fails regs and then fixing it for the race
Also remember that both Mercedes and RB did the same in Austin as the track rattled their cars to pieces
And the lack of onboard from Verstappen's car when he forgot to turn left.
TBH, I think stuff like this is inevitable when two drivers are in close competition for the title. I do think Max should have had a penalty, but I understand the thinking behind “let them race”. The stewards made their decision, time to move on.
Oh, of course it’s inevitable—it’s just surprising that in the context of having the fastest car in race day Max would still rather come to blows than bide his time whereas Lewis will stay in the longer fight instead of going all-in one one corner.
I didn’t personally think it should be a penalty (nor, it seemed, did Toto) but I do agree with Coulthard’s view that it was “playing his joker” and not something that could be repeated without penalty. It was quite clearly a deliberate move rather than a loss of control from over-optimistic braking.
The slightly curious aspect is that, if I recall correctly, Max had already made his weaving move that had earned him the black and white flag; but I forget whether they’d actually made that decision by the time they chose not to investigate the main one.
In any case, it was all good action in the race, and it was pleasing that there were no interventions from the stewards.
That track’s certainly seen its fair share of classic races. One of the great venues on the calendar.
“Hamilton braked late and overshot the corner. He was travelling at such a speed that he was never going to make the apex of the corner and his trajectory through Copse meant he was never going to miss Max, even with braking he ran very wide”
Familiar stuff?
Familiar and yet also quite difference. Hamilton would have probably made the corner at Copse - admittedly with no room for Verstappen on the outside (except for the massive tarmac run off)
Vertappen was nowhere near making Turn 4 within track limits. So either he made a mistake that was bad enough to force another driver off track (he's makes mistakes under pressure) or he's deliberately pushed a rival off track to try and prevent an overtake (he's a cheat)
Has to be one or the other.
Ah, hadn’t realised the Red Bull wing thing was Mexico.
Different to qualifying with a car that fails regs and then fixing it for the race
That’s not quite the case, though, is it? I thought they qualified with a car that passed that test in scrutineering but was then found to be marginally beyond the limit after qualifying…? I got the impression that Mercedes even notified the FIA that there may have been an issue but were denied permission to check it. But I may have misunderstood the post-race chatter in the small hours of the morning.
I think the best answer to Max's cornering technique and weaving was that Hamilton still passed him, and went on to put 10 and half seconds into him at the finish.
Job jobbed despite all the fun and games. Got to give a boost to the Mercedes team and make RB think about what a task it will be to beat Hamilton after being handed a massive advantage, and still get beaten.
On the other hand, I’m liking Vettel more and more this season. He seems to have grown through the arrogant stuff from his latter days at Red Bull and the clearly troublesome times at Ferrari and is a lot more relaxed and funny. Found his radio commentary about “touching Hamiltons rear wing” quite amusing.
This. I never liked him when he was at Ferrari, he seemed massively arrogant but he's mellowed greatly at AM. Seems genuinely funny and likeable now. Stuff like helping out litter-picking in the stands post-race and cycling to the circuit (even in the rain!).
Caught a brief bit of the new Top Gear last night when he was on and again, he seemed pretty chilled out with a good sense of humour.
"Hindsight will probably show that regardless what happens in the championship. The performance yesterday will be the thing that people remember. So in that way he has kinda already won"
Very much this. At the end of the day all the shenanigans only make the win more delicious. Just like Turkey in the wet and that 'stardust' quali in Singapore Hammy delivers another astonishing performance. It's where the greatness comes from rather than the number of titles accumulated.
Pretty sure Max has used up all of his FIA get out of jail free cards, he won't get away with a stunt like that again this season without incurring a penalty. The stewards are now under more scrutiny than Max himself and will be obliged to act next time or else risk bringing the sport into (Even more) disrepute.
I think Vettel would be the ultimate Top Gear host, his humour is so Monty Pyton. He would bring what Clarkson bought to the show without the dodgy bits. His routine would be like a 'woke' Benny Hill, he knows how to play a British audience like a fiddle.
Don't know if they could pay him enough but you know it makes sense.
and went on to put 10 and half seconds into him at the finish.
And Bottas was <5 seconds behind Max. Just to rub in the implications of a (retrospective) penalty...
It’s where the greatness comes from rather than the number of titles accumulated.
In fairness, I think Max has had some of those—including at Interlagos—and will no doubt have more. There’s no doubting Max’s greatness as a driver. It’s just that he’s so pugilistic on-track that it’s quite reasonable to have a variety of views on that. Personally I’m largely fine with it. Where I draw the line is outright dirty tactics and underhandedness, which is why I never liked Schumacher other than that one weekend of Spa ‘91. I’ve not seen Max edge into that territory yet; for me his edging over the line comes more in the form of being literally pugilistic off-track as well—presumably his Dad’s genes coming out.
“ I think Vettel would be the ultimate Top Gear host, his humour is so Monty Pyton. He would bring what Clarkson bought to the show without the dodgy bits. His routine would be like a ‘woke’ Benny Hill, he knows how to play a British audience like a fiddle”
Agreed - he’s a big fan of British culture and comedy IIRC.
I reckon getting to the point to win the WDC and staying there probably made Vettel into something he wasn’t and now he’s more relaxed he’s being more “himself”. I really couldn’t stand him at one point but my wife and I are both agreed in liking him a lot now.
Classy from a RB mechanic. No idea if this is true, but Autocar are reporting the Audi have bought the entire McLaren group
and went on to put 10 and half seconds into him at the finish.
I wouldn't read too much into that gap. Agree that Hamilton absolutely had him this weekend, but I'd imagine RB then turned the engine down as far as they could get away with once they knew the race was done
And Bottas was <5 seconds behind Max. Just to rub in the implications of a (retrospective) penalty…
IMO unless it's dangerous or the result would be altered by cheating/avoidable accident, I'd prefer it to be dealt with via super licence points. I assume he'll get some if the full data shows this wasn't avoidable? I was surprised they announced no investigation so quickly though, even if it looked inevitable that Hamilton would take the place back.
Agree with the comments on Vettel above too.
bluearsedfly
Free MemberClassy from a RB mechanic.
/blockquote>
Oh come on 🙄 he’s using the “stick of truth” on a Lego car, lighten up
Classy from a RB mechanic.
I thought it was quite funny
The Audi - McLaren news is bonkers (assuming it gets confirmed). Not sure if McLaren-Audi F1 works for me