[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

At last we may get a debate on Britain's relationship with Europe (Leader, 11 January). What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/11/whats-eu-ever-done-us

Just some of what the EU has done for the UK. Not that anyone cares about equal pay, heatlh, consumer protection and human rights ( yes England not so big on that) plus who and what is going to want to trade with England?

As one Tory Outie said, "the problem with the EU is it stops us doing a lot of things we want to do".

Which is Tory-speak for "we want to be able to screw everyone else a lot more than we already do".

Don't forget the Fudora:

[img] [/img]

So in because we don't trust our own government. Sorry state of affairs. Lots of things I hate about the EU but the out campaign is scaring me into voting 'in'.

The whole campaign is an opportunity for mass Tory right onanism. Sadly we're going to be subjected to months of this by the hysterical media. They're basically holding the naughty magazine whilst they do it in public.

The whole campaign is an opportunity for mass Tory right onanism. Sadly we're going to be subjected to months of this by the hysterical media. They're basically holding the naughty magazine whilst they do it in public.

Corbyn and McDonnell are closet leavers as well as all the Bennites in
Momentum

It's not just the right of UK politics that wants to leave

Don't forget the Fudora:

[i]Geography and history determine that Britain is part of Europe, and Labour wants to see Europe safe and prosperous. But the European Economic Community, which does not even include the whole of Western Europe, was never devised to suit us, and our experience as a member of it has made it more difficult for us to deal with our economic and industrial problems. It has sometimes weakened our ability to achieve the objectives of Labour's international policy.

The next Labour government, committed to radical, socialist policies for reviving the British economy, is bound to find continued membership a most serious obstacle to the fulfilment of those policies. In particular the rules of the Treaty of Rome are bound to conflict with our strategy for economic growth and full employment, our proposals on industrial policy and for increasing trade, and our need to restore exchange controls and to regulate direct overseas investment. Moreover, by preventing us from buying food from the best sources of world supply, they would run counter to our plans to control prices and inflation.

For all these reasons, British withdrawal from the Community is the right policy for Britain - to be completed well within the lifetime of the parliament. That is our commitment. But we are also committed to bring about withdrawal in an amicable and orderly way, so that we do not prejudice employment or the prospect of increased political and economic co-operation with the whole of Europe.

We emphasise that our decision to bring about withdrawal in no sense represents any weakening of our commitment to internationalism and international co operation. We are not 'withdrawing from Europe'. We are seeking to extricate ourselves from the Treaty of Rome and other Community treaties which place political burdens on Britain. Indeed, we believe our withdrawal will allow us to pursue a more dynamic and positive international policy - one which recognises the true political and geographical spread of international problems and interests. We will also seek agreement with other European governments - both in the EEC and outside - on a common strategy for economic expansion.[/i]

[b]Labour Party 1983 Manifesto[/b]

[i]The issues surrounding the treaty are actually very serious, in that it enormously extends the powers of the European Commission and, by the appointment of the president and foreign affairs spokespeople, one can see the development of executive power – with some accountability to the commission, very limited accountability to the Council of Ministers or the European Parliament and almost none to national parliaments. What is also explicit in both the Maastricht Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty is the imposition of a market economy on Europe, a control on borrowing made by any member states’ government and serious control on the political choices open to any one member state. Thus, the British government had to explain to the European Union why it proposed to take Northern Rock into public ownership, for how long it intended that to be the case and give assurances about the bank’s future. EU law makes it almost impossible for a government to take any industry into public ownership of its own free will because it would be accused of giving it illegal state subsidies.

There is a strong socialist argument against the Lisbon Treaty and the economic consequences that flow from it.[/i]

[b]Corbyn, 2007[/b]

sbob - Member

teamhurtmore - Member
Like you I have had the opportunity to live and work in France, my son has studied there for a year

My missus has had the opportunity to live and work outside the EU, and has studied outside the EU.
It really isn't that difficult.

Really? It cost me about 2k to get out to Oz and I needed a local to do that, 4 years later and another detailed application and fee and I can apply for citizenship. Without the local I would have needed to go through a points based application and would probably have struggled on that one. After that it's down to sponsorship with massive tie ins and stability issues like get laid off, head straight to the airport.
I hear the US is even more fun to get into 🙂

I'd not describe it as easy. Certainly moving and studying in the EU is a walk in the park in comparison.

molgrips - Member

It bloody well is.

Have you worked abroad?
Because my partner's experiences seem to differ from yours substantially.

You had an opportunity handed on a plate.

And with you making things up like that, the conversation is finished.
Maybe your experiences differ because you lack the skills that would make you desirable to businesses in other countries?

mikewsmith - Member

Really?

Yes, although she wasn't in Australia; Asia and the Americas.
I do have friends that have moved to Australia with work though, again, it wasn't a problem.

I do have friends that have moved to Australia with work though, again, it wasn't a problem.

By the Americas do you mean the US or somewhere else, again know a couple of Germans who had to go through the green card lottery a few times to get into the US even with firm job offers. I know of people who went over as sponsored and their partners can't work at all. So quite a lot harder and more restrictive than current EU requirements.

mikewsmith

If you have the skills you can get a 457 visa to oz (well you used to be able without too much issue some years back). I would agree that the fact they can turn round and kick you out at a moments notice add a certain stress.

Having worked in EU, OZ and the USA the Fact you can just turn up in any of the EU countries and start with minimum hassle and a lot more security as they won't deport you if you are not in work is fantastic.
The opportunities we have to work across Europe or for UK companies to pull the best talent from such a huge pool for me are worth the in vote alone.
If you add in the working time directive, the minimum vacation requirements, improved consumer protection and everything mrsfry has listed I can't see why you would vote to leave.

If you have the skills you can get a 457 visa to oz (well you used to be able without too much issue some years back). I would agree that the fact they can turn round and kick you out at a moments notice add a certain stress.

The 457 is one route, if you match the skills shortage list and other requirements, find someone to sponsor you etc. still going to cost you 6-700 quid with medicals etc. and only valid for 4 years.

We have a south African colleague who had to uproot and run off to NZ as his visa ran out, he is exploring options but it could be over 3 months before he can come back over and work here.

mikewsmith - Member

So they just got offered a job, hopped on a plane and started work the next day?

They had a job, got asked to go and work in Australia, accepted and moved. Of course that didn't happen the next day, when was the last time you knew of someone being relocated in the EU within 24hrs? There's no need to be ridiculous.

Yep.. Those are the kicks of working away from home (or in your potential new home) like that.. I've seen it happen to a few people and it is never fun to see and could be happening to me in April!
It's very different for the people in the UK from the rest of Europe. I don't think that this situation would have ever entered their minds. Not sure how you would cope with the uncertainty and the powerless aspect as an individual or a business.

Sbob,

Not quite 24 hrs but my company expects you to be able to relocate within the EU in 2 weeks... Actually once visa is issued the same globally except the USA and that is only due to the convoluted logistics process to ship your stuff.

Not at all sbob you just seem to have glossed over the need for a Visa, the application and processing times, the chance of failure and the restrictions placed on you by that visa. Even having/been offered a job gives you no rights to a Visa, there have been a number of moves to restrict the use of these work visa's recently to improve the chances for Australians. It's a very long way from the EU way of working.
Perhaps more realistically you could accept a job in Paris, sign a contract hand in your notice and be working there next month. Good luck getting out to Oz on anything other than a working holiday visa that quickly, one of the statements all over the Immigration Dept website is do not make any big decisions or financial commitments until it's been awarded - as it's not certain for anybody.

and spying this classic 😉

Maybe your experiences differ because you lack the skills that would make you desirable to businesses in other countries?

when was the last time you knew of someone being relocated in the EU within 24hrs? There's no need to be ridiculous.

I think you're missing the point here somewhat.

Maybe your experiences differ because you lack the skills that would make you desirable to businesses in other countries?

Maybe so, but even people without skills can enjoy and benefit from a spell abroad away from this place?

@mike you should have to apply for a visa to live and work in Australia, restrictions on working for the government make sense. Same applies in the US. It should take weeks to apply for a visa, perhaps months as proper checks need to be made. I applied through my employer for work visas for the US and Singapore, really not that difficult and changing jobs and countries takes months anyway. In a typical mkve therevis a transition and if you are needed urgently you can fo on a "business trip" first while your visa is provessed. The notion that the ability to work abroad including in the EU will dissapear is ridicukous, we will have a woek/visa exchange programme with the EU. The key thing is it will be controlled

@ninfan, thanks for posting. Corbyn in the run-up to the leadership campaign re-iterated his euro-sceptic stance particularly as membership effectively prevents nationalisation as per your quote

Boris has a long piece in the Telegragph, many #Jambyfacts although he's not sharing the obsession of using that hashtag 8)

[url= http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/12167643/Boris-Johnson-there-is-only-one-way-to-get-the-change-we-want-vote-to-leave-the-EU.html ]Telegragph Link[/url]

Not sure what your agreeing with... The point being that's what working in the EU will become like, harder to work over there and harder to get good skilled people in over here. Visa's and immigration always end up being political objects with numbers being changed to suit the political situation regardless of the economic situation. Is closing up the UK to foreign workers a good thing? Making it harder for UK workers to gain experience overseas?

@mike a highly intelligent and motivated Chinese or Indian person will not find filling in a visa form and waiting a while a challenge or an obstacle to a better future. I don't see the US being held back by having controlled immigration. My family where £10 poms in the 1960's, we went to Australia House for the interviews and filled in the forms.

They've relaxd the rules but in Singapore you had to leave the country in 2 weeks if you lost your job. That was tough but those where the rules, kniwn upfront, and they where still oversubscribed with applications.

ctk - Member
So in because we don't trust our own government. Sorry state of affairs.

It seems this is pretty much the IN campaign's trump card.
And to be fair ... it's a good un!

My only concern though, is that in 20years time the EU follow suit. And what hope would we have of voting them out then?
At least with UK political parties - it will only be UK votes that get them in.

If the IN vote wins. The EU will be encouraged to cherry-pick the UK even more. And I fear it will be our children and grandchildren who will suffer as a result.

I don't see the US being held back by having controlled immigration.

Flipping round the immigration question, if you were in the EU and looking for a place to expand to would you go for the one that had a free movement of people or the one that doesn't?

Jamba - have you considered what being out will do to what I understand to be your personal situation with regard to living in France and owning property there?

My only concern though, is that in 20years time the EU follow suit. And what hope would we have of voting them out then?
At least with UK political parties - it will only be UK votes that get them in.

If the IN vote wins. The EU will be encouraged to cherry-pick the UK even more. And I fear it will be our children and grandchildren who will suffer as a result.

Replace the EU with the UK, and the UK With Scotland, and you have the argument for Scottish independence right there.

There's still this fallacy that the UK is more democratic. How do we vote out members of the House of Lords? Is it democratic that the Tories have total control of government with only 24% of the vote?

Personally not a lot as my wife is French, I got married there (here as posting from Paris) so I can even have a passport if I wish. That being said none of that makes any difference as the French will do all they can to keep all the Brits who pay massive amounts into the local economy including for example buying property (at 8% stamp duty) in the North/Normandy/Brittany where most French don't want to live/visit (see great movie Bienvenue chez le chi'tis) and spending money when they visit. They recently introduced extra taxes on foreigners (inc EU citizens) owning holiday property. My understanding is you get access to health service here (Carte Vitale) if you pay property taxes, doesn't matter where you come from EU or outside. Like Spain the French benefit massively from Brits with second homes / retiring there. They will not jeopardise that.

The Sunday Politics show was very interesting as they takked about how Switzerland and Norway pay into the EU budget despite not being members, the interesting repost was that they contribute to the specific programmes they wish to like the student exchange Erasmus scheme (see @tmh and my own daughters who studied in Copenhagen and Barcelona). I imagine they don't pay towards the duplicate EU buildings in Brussels and Strassbourg nor Junker's private jet.

Is it democratic that the Tories have total control of government with only 24% of the vote?

@ben you have the most (or one of) parliaments in the world with the very significant benefit of support from the UK. The SNP really needs to get on with actually managing Scotland with the significant powers it has and with what I imagine will be an increased majority after the May elections.

Like Spain the French benefit massively from Brits with second homes / retiring there. They will not jeopardise that.

So you will be aware that they floated taxing foreigners owning property even higher but were reminded that it is against EU law.

Too funny that you are relaxed about the impact of Brexit because you can get an EU passport.

@ben you have the most (or one of) parliaments in the world with the very significant benefit of support from the UK.

And replace the UK with the EU in that sentence, and you have the argument for staying in the EU.

The funny thing about British nationalism is that it doesn't think it exists.

I imagine

Have they made a position?

[url= http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/britain-to-leave-eu-because-of-massive-blond-haired-child-20160222106453 ]The Mash nails it yet again[/url]

😆

I think you're missing the point here somewhat.

Seven hours ago I'm surprised I managed to operate my front door, let alone my keyboard. 😆

mikewsmith: not sure it makes any difference, but out of interest the friends I have in Australia are either engineers (civil & mechanical) or health professionals (nurses & midwives).

The Mash nails it yet again

What is frightening is that it is so accurate - that the future of the country may well be decided by the sheeple voting for a TV personality.

Boris really does talk some BS in the Torygraph article - the scaremongering over EU legislation. About 7% of our laws are based on EU law much lower than many other countries.

The other red herring is "giving up" sovereignty. No shit, we do that the whole time without blinking NATO, GATT, WTO etc. Replace "giving up" with "pooling" and you have a much more sensible debate.

He quotes the Parliamentary Library - perhaps he should read their section on European and UK law.

yep who all had to get Visa's etc. when we don't need spare engineers or health people they won't have a 457 visa. The process works if you have an attractive place to move to and a shortage of skills.
Anyway at least your typing was better than your logic 😉

Edited as per thm request.

In return - can we please have some intellectual honesty in the discussion, and not wrapping up fibs and opinions as facts?

Can we no leave out the nasty stuff - its very boring all this Jamba-baiting.

At the very least focus on points not posters.

Skilled person in France.
Job offer in UK - cost and time and uncertainty in application to work in UK.
Alternative offer in Germany - drive over and start work.
Choice?
I wonder ...

Can we no leave out the nasty stuff - its very boring all this Jamba-baiting.

FWIW we have some way to go till we reach the levels of baiting you have for TJ and still do to A-A - I loled at that request from you. If only you treated all posters as well as your mate eh.

At the very least focus on points not posters.

What can we do his points are made up and exist largely in his head?
What would you advise us to do?

What approach to you suggest we do - I seem to recall you were the picture of restraint when you though AS was just making things up so obviously you are the best person to ask for advice on restraint

OH the irony of that appeal from you of all posters 😀

Personally I am not baiting him just pointing out the obvious made up points in his posts and his never wrong attitude - he deserves his hashtag for he is fast and loose with facts. No one ever tries to defend his view - even you have not tried just moaned at those who point out he is often factually incorrect/just making things up.

I would deal with the cause not the consequences personally.

Thanks Dr!

It would be nice to have a good debate, at least here if not among the politicians

Can you not just ask him to stop posting things that are quite clearly factually incorrect?

and if you are needed urgently you can fo on a "business trip" first while your visa is provessed. The notion that the ability to work abroad including in the EU will dissapear is ridicukous, we will have a woek/visa exchange programme with the EU.

2) who says there will be a work/visa exchange programme between iUK and the EU? This is like in the Scotch referendum where the nats kept on saying stuff like "no, but iScotland will be fine, because we will reach all these agreements with the UK/EU", without ever considering how long that would take, what they would say or what was in it for the EU/UK!

I think DrJs point sums it up nicely much easier for us to recruit from EU countries and vice versa, which really helps in scientific research,
We were supposed to have a new postdoc start in Jan we are now hoping it to be March when she gets her visa sorted from America

Will other banks join HSBC leaving London for Pars/Berlin etc ?

mikewsmith - Member

yep who all had to get Visa's etc

And they all managed it, even in your one, cherry picked example of a country with apparently exceedingly strict immigration laws.

I'm not even sure why so many people here are concerned about the UK remaining in the EU when one of the most popular arguments against is the ease in which we can leave!

And you mock my logic! 😆

xxx
sbob,
spawn of immigrants, who settled here before the EU.
They coped.

Yes, they matched a skills shortage, which is temporary is a lot of fields, not many mine related visas getting renewed right now. The argument isn't just about leaving it's the fact that it makes it harder for people to work across borders, for companies to have sites in the UK and the eu, it will put the UK at a disadvantage along with any nice trade tariffs that come in, can't wait to see how some countries enjoy starting the negotiations from scratch with the UK. But hey it will all be fine...

spawn of immigrants, who settled here before the EU.
They coped.

I thought being outside the EU meant no immigration - have I been misled? 🙂

Capital Economics / Woodford Capital Management have released a pretty detailed and surprisingly balanced assessment of what a Brexit would mean:

https://woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/

Worth a read because it goes several levels of detail below the "noise" and gets to some of the potential upsides and downsides.

DrJ - Member

I thought being outside the EU meant no immigration - have I been misled?

Yes.

mikewsmith - Member

Yes, they matched a skills shortage, which is temporary is a lot of fields, not many mine related visas getting renewed right now. The argument isn't just about leaving it's the fact that it makes it harder for people to work across borders, for companies to have sites in the UK and the eu, it will put the UK at a disadvantage along with any nice trade tariffs that come in, can't wait to see how some countries enjoy starting the negotiations from scratch with the UK. But hey it will all be fine...

I honestly don't want to sound rude, but what area do you work in?

It's just that you make it sound like working with other countries outside of the EU is so difficult it's almost impossible.

The reality is that we already work and trade with non-EU countries, by the metric **** ton.
Or imperial **** ton if we're discussing the vast amount of trade we do with the states.

Thanks for the link j5m - something to read on the way home! 😉

But don't forget that Capital Economics do have a starting point in all this (not saying good or bad) - you can read Roger Bootle's stuff in the Torygraph.

Boris is very smart, very charasmatic and very popular. Thats why the lefties hate him so much. He's the opposite o Corbyn who many of us where delighted to see eelcted as Labour leader.

DrJ is the Frenchie doesn't want the job we'll take the Chinese then. There will always be a queue just like there is for US work visas. I am in favour of the EU ending freedom of movement so whether I had a French passport would make very little difference to me.

Many Brits buy in Switzerland or USA despite having no right of residence. A good friend of mine lived in Singapore for 10 years and never had the right to remain more than 3 months, not that hard to take a trip to Thailand or Bali for a weekend to reset the clock,

Re: France, Spain, Italy etc continuing to welcome Brits living/owning property it really is a no brainer scenario. DrJ you are quite right about the property taxes (already mich higher than UK used to be, more similar now). Work permits/visas we'll have reciprocal arrangements with various countries as negotiated.

you are François Hollande and I claim my 5 Euros!!

This is the photo the Telegrapgh used on the front page of website, Hollande arriving at the summit

[img] [/img]

The reality is that we already work and trade with non-EU countries, by the metric * ton.
Or imperial * ton if we're discussing the vast amount of trade we do with the states

It's just more efficient to do it with EU countries

My lab collaborates with people all over the world, as someone who has to fill out tedious cuatoms forms for shipping biohazards, I can say its much easier for us to send biological or scientific samples to other EU countries, than non EU.

From my point of view leaving the EU means more red tape and beuraracy

I am in favour of the EU ending freedom of movement

On what basis - its economically beneficial, would hurt many companies and restrict opportunities for our childrens' generation?

Boris is very smart, very charasmatic and very popular. Thats why the lefties hate him so much. He's the opposite o Corbyn who many of us where delighted to see eelcted as Labour leader.

And yet his naked opportunism, may well result in Corbyn in power. A lose-lose scenario. 😉

Boris is very smart, very charasmatic and very popular. Thats why the lefties hate him so much. He's the opposite o Corbyn who many of us where delighted to see eelcted as Labour leader.

Or maybe, just maybe, people hate him because they're bright enough to see through his clearly fraudulent facade, and recognise him for the monumentally self-absorbed, opportunistic, sneaky, scheming and totally untrustworthy bell end that he is? Just a thought

And yet his naked opportunism, may well result in [s]Corbyn[/s] [b]Lady Nugee[/b] in power. A lose-lose scenario

she is clearly being groomed to be in the seat for 2020, note weight loss, tidied up hair, soft spoken to the camera makeover coupled with hiring Damien McBride

Skilled person in France.
Job offer in UK - cost and time and uncertainty in application to work in UK.
Alternative offer in Germany - drive over and start work.
Choice?
I wonder ...

And of course the corollary:
Employer in France
Candidate in UK - cost and time and uncertainty in application to work in France.
Other, marginally less qualified candidate in Germany.
Choice?

It's just that you make it sound like working with other countries outside of the EU is so difficult it's almost impossible

Well he is saying what it is really like in his industry in a foreign land

He is simply saying it is harder than when you have a right. I dont know why we even need to discuss this as its self evidently true.

FWIW no one is actually claiming it wont be harder - except him whose name I should not mention.

Well he is saying what it is really like in his industry in a foreign land

To take an example, a previous employer simply would not consider hiring a person for work in the US unless they already had a Green Card, no matter their qualifications. They would not let themselves in for the effort of making and supporting an application. You could say "that's stupid, they lose out on some good employees", and you may be right, but that's no comfort to the rejected applicant.

[url= http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/download/brexit01.pdf ]LSE REPORT ON BREXIT[/url]

Junkyard & DrJ exactly my point, my industry is all of them really, working across health, mining, manufacturing and a lot more. I work with plenty of migrant workers but all of them have taken a risk and jumped trough a lot of hoops to be here. All the things you don't have to do in the EU, all the things the UK wants rid of. Bring back the bureaucracy of Visa's for everyone, bet people like Airbus will be happy...

@jambalaya It's only because you seem to know what the policies of France are in the event of an exit...

I expect to be voting to leave so as to change the UK's format of the link we currently have to the EU.

EU parliament is too cumbersome and I don't for one second believe that the EU parliament will vote through those changes, requested by DC, which will require such a vote.

As for workers entering the UK. It seems obvious to me that "[i]business leaders[/i]" continue to demand that workers flow into the UK as a strategy against a shortage of workers, which would in turn force companies [u]to increase wages[/u].
It's supply and demand. Business calls to continue permitting workers to enter the UK as a guard against having to increase wages.
I'd like to see a slight, downward adjustment to supply, so as to see a improvement in demand via wages offered to those working here.

and/or increase prices - you decide!

[i]teamhurtmore - Member
and/or increase prices - you decide![/i]

Assuming that was a response to my post. Increasing prices of goods / services doesn't guarantee that money will find it's way into the pockets of the lowest paid.
More often that money finds it's way to the directors and share holders.

I know it appears to be very cynical of me, but companies do seem to be blind to any concept of a little less profit for share holders should equate to a higher wage for a worker.

Anyway, that's thread drift, so that's it from me, for now.
🙂

I'm fairly poorly informed on this so far but it's fair to say that I am completely torn down the middle. Leaving aside the political 'personalities' and their generally grubby attempts to hijack this for their careers, I genuinely don't know which side I'm on.

Stay:

Play a central part in the European experiment, develop the strongest possible links that protect workers, be part of something that supports us as much as we support it.

Leave:

Change the way we do things. Make a new model that might perhaps be a better way forward. Protect our essential services and be able to negotiate on our own terms with anyone.

I suppose I'm a bit of a Luddite. I'd like to see a return to an economy that provides the majority of our needs from within our own borders. I'd like to see countries and communities build up their own resilience to free market trends and see an improvement in aspirations and opportunities for the young. Which side fits that best? I don't know. Staying perhaps fits some of those but within a larger, more chaotic whole that offsets those benefits with other imposed challenges. Leaving would be a leap into the unknown (and run the risk of promoting some pretty odious politicians), but I wonder if it's time to do something completely new. Will be reading a lot on the subject over the next few months for sure.

I don't bloody know

Solo - perfectly valid and relevant point. But you are correct, it doesn't, that depends on lots of things. However, despite the normal rhetoric, increases in immigration actually increased both the supply and demand for labour and hence tends to benefit wages or at worse has no effect.

[b]We are the EU-SSR Borg. [/b](the EU bureaucrats are similar to Star Trek Borg btw)

[b]Lower your will [/b](shields) [b]and surrender BritLand [/b](your ships).
[b]
We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own.[/b] (biological = force integration of culture, people, belief etc, technological= standardisation - forget uniqueness, creativeness innovation etc you will think alike)
[b]
Your culture will adapt to service us. [/b](in another words you will be slaved to serve the EU-SSR elite Politburo)

[b]Resistance is futile.[/b] (Got you! Got your children and the lot! Catchy catchy monkey 😈 )

edit: [b]Economy argument[/b] ... ya right ... [b]the tail is trying to wag the dog[/b]. This economy argument is least important.

Sigh

Pigface - Member
Sigh

Boss! Boss! Look!

The Borg! The Borg!

Oh no .. The Drone! The Drone!

😆

Catchy catchy monkey

Which monkey? Who said anything about a monkey? Man, this is confusing.

This monkey?

[img] ?itok=M3ruKbYi[/img]

thestabiliser - Member
Catchy catchy monkey

Which monkey? Who said anything about a monkey? Man, this is confusing.

This monkey

That pic no monkey.
That ape!
You monkey!
You want share banana? 😆

We are the EU-SSR Borg. (the EU bureaucrats are similar to Star Trek Borg btw)

Lower your will (shields) and surrender BritLand (your ships).

We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. (biological = force integration of culture, people, belief etc, technological= standardisation - forget uniqueness, creativeness innovation etc you will think alike)

Your culture will adapt to service us. (in another words you will be slaved to serve the EU-SSR elite Politburo)

Resistance is futile. (Got you! Got your children and the lot! Catchy catchy monkey )

edit: Economy argument ... ya right ... the tail is trying to wag the dog. This economy argument is least important.

You need to get out more!

mrlebowski - Member
You need to get out more!

I vote Out ... see in that case I can go Out more ... 😆

I am in favour of the EU ending freedom of movement so whether I had a French passport would make very little difference to me...A good friend of mine lived in Singapore for 10 years and never had the right to remain more than 3 months, not that hard to take a trip to Thailand or Bali for a weekend to reset the clock,

I'm pretty sure that in the short term we will suffer economically if we leave the EU. However, in the long term I don't think anybody knows. There are positives to both sides of the argument. I'll certainly be taking a long term view when I decide. The EU in 30 yrs will be very different to what it is now.

We're the 5th largest economy in the world. I'm in no doubt that the rest of the EU would also suffer if we left. So far all the talk/reporting on the "stay" side seems to talk of the UK collapsing while the remaining countries prosper.

I personally found the whole renegotiation quite telling. Surely when a member as large as the UK threaten to leave it would be beneficial to the EU to do their upmost to keep us in? To have offered so little seems to suggest how anti change the EU is?

I'm quite suprised reading this thread how certain so many people are regarding which way they will vote. As I said, I can see perfectly legitimate arguments to both sides of the argument. Certainly not an easy decision.

konabunny - Member
Wants to end legal free migration within the EU - is entitled to residency in the EU - encourages illegal migration!

Illegal migration is part of the norm all over the world so what's the big deal?

You catch them you deal with them.

You Cannot catch them then they go about illegally.

This is No issue at all.

The question is do you want the rule of law? (I am referring immigration rules in BritLand)

🙄

dalesjoe - Member

Surely when a member as large as the UK threaten to leave it would be beneficial to the EU to do their upmost to keep us in?

A point I tried to make a couple of pages ago.

chewkw - Member

We are the EU-SSR Borg. (the EU bureaucrats are similar to Star Trek Borg btw)

Lower your will (shields) and surrender BritLand (your ships).

We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. (biological = force integration of culture, people, belief etc, technological= standardisation - forget uniqueness, creativeness innovation etc you will think alike)

Your culture will adapt to service us. (in another words you will be slaved to serve the EU-SSR elite Politburo)

Resistance is futile. (Got you! Got your children and the lot! Catchy catchy monkey )

edit: Economy argument ... ya right ... the tail is trying to wag the dog. This economy argument is least important.

I think we can all agree that leave or stay, we do need tighter immigration controls, for non-EU citizens at the least. 😉