Speaking to my Dad tonight he was saying it doesn't matter if we are in or out for stuff like trade or a tiny amount of immigration and emigration that will always happen anyway.
He just remembers playing in Bomb Craters, and damaged buildings, and receiving food parcels from America and being very aware of the stability we have had since. Sounds a bit like Syria to me.
Look at us all bickering about faff all! Bunch of ranting nonsensical idiots. Perhaps Britain and Europe, Russia and USA should quit gazing into their own bloody navels and maybe think about dealing with other more serious problems. I like to think they are but this whole referendum is just a distraction. At least the Pope said something sensible for once and advocates building bridges.
As the whole EU trade argument (yawn), business will carry on as usual. Are we all that naive to think that Europe will say "don't do business with those naughty Brits?"
Just slap a nice 10% terrific on everything, then ban anything that doesn't comply with all EU rules and make border inspections hard. No more cheap fags and booze and all that too. It's naive to assume anything... It makes an ass of u & me. By saying out you are gambling on an outcome.
Almost 65 million consumers in the UK. That's 65 million consumers with potential to spend on German goods.
Where will Germany find another 65 million consumers with money to buy their goods?
China are trying to encourage their population to buy their own goods - so that's potentially a shrinking market.
India? Wealth inequality means those with money are too few.
Rest of the EU? Nope, that market has already been cultivated.
No doubt EU leaders will try to bully Uk as they did with Greece. But ultimately they need access to our markets - before USA grabs it all.
Vote for out here.
Let EU and USA compete for our trade.
Out, bringing back duty free shopping is the biggest benefit!
Almost 65 million consumers in the UK. That's 65 million consumers with potential to spend on German goods.
Where will Germany find another 65 million consumers with money to buy their goods?
1. have you seen the size of China? there are cities with those sorts of population numbers there.
2. How d'you know that in the future a UK govt won't decide that rather than support German jobs, they'd like to support British car jobs and slap import taxes on those Beamers, and Mercs?
British PM love strutting about on the world stage, outside of the EU, we're a mid sized economy floating about in the Atlantic, which both the EU and US china and Russia will ignore
You seem to be under the impression that the UK only buys goods and services and doesn't need to sell them as well.
You are radically overestimating the specialness of the special relationship.
I love the way the BBC make it look like CMD has been up all night 'thrashin' out a deal..
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35609968
"some progress" = the EU aint buying it
What worries me is how it will all look in 20 years. I'm all for an EU that improves the ability of members to trade freely. However this move towards ever closer political ties is the element I'm not so keen on. The EU we have now will not be the EU we have in 20 years or so. I'm not old enough to remember the original vote to join the EU (or whatever it was called then). Relatives of mine who voted "Yes" back then all say that what we have now is not what they voted for. Economic ties, yes. Ever growing political ties, No.
I can honestly see both sides of the argument and as such am undecided.
cloudnine - MemberI love the way the BBC make it look like CMD has been up all night 'thrashin' out a deal.
I've decided that no longer counts as antisocial hours, we need a 7 day government so he never gets to sleep again.
The whole thing is little more than theatre - in the end, rather silly using up all our political capital dealing with minor issues when the REAL EU issues have yet to raised and debated. Why shoot you bolt on the marginal stuff?
Merkel will always look for compromise unlike nos amis as she knows how bad Brexit is for the "project".
this stupid and trivial thing over child benefits is enough for me to say we should leave.
Even if the UK has to pay child benefit to children in other countries, why should it not be indexed to the cost of living of the country the children are in ?
Seems eminently sensible to me.
I love the way the BBC make it look like CMD has been up all night 'thrashin' out a deal..
why do you love it - it appear that he has indeed been up all night ?
The whole thing is political pandering by Cameron. He hopes that the EU will give in a bit, the UK won't exit the EU and everyone is happy and our Dear Leader gets to play the hero (see also, getting Google to pony up SOME cash). Worst case, the EU say no, the UK votes for an exit and Cameron/the Conservatives/the entire UK ends up with a mess to clear up.
Merkel will always look for compromise unlike nos amis as she knows how bad Brexit is for the "project".
This, I believe, is the crux of the matter.
Ignoring the facts (correct me if I'm wrong!) that with the exception of Germany, the UK is the biggest net fund raiser for the EU and has the biggest economy (greater than the 19 smallest economies of the member states combined), Brexit would almost certainly act as a catalyst for the ever growing, yet routinely under-reported anti-EU superstate feelings that exist in many member states.
I really don't know what is best, and I'm unsure how I would vote, but a total reform of the EU to achieve what we originally voted for, rather than the "project" we now have, would be nice.
Brexit maybe the only way this can be achieved, otherwise I fear we may just be continuing to flog an extremely dead horse.
atlaz - Member
... Worst case, the EU say no, the UK votes for an exit and Cameron/the Conservatives/the entire UK ends up with a mess to clear up.
Cameron will be pressured to resign, and he very well might. He won't have any mess to clear up, he'll just move on to the extremely profitable world of being an ex-PM.
(if we think TonyB has done well out of it, just imagine how much money Dave will make)
[i]Even if the UK has to pay child benefit to children in other countries, why should it not be indexed to the cost of living of the country the children are in ? [/i]
So you are also happy then for some folk to receive more than we do, ie Swedes, Germans , the French?
And also EVERYONE who receives child benefit in the UK will have to prove where their children live, all the time. Whereas at the moment the only time the Govt contacts someone about their payments is when the child gets to leaving education age.
Can you imagine the increase in costs of administering this?
when the REAL EU issues have yet to raised and debated.
This is what I can't stand about the EU, they've had years to 'fix' the Eurozone problems and a year or two to get to grips with the refugee crisis, and what do we have as an outcome for all the talks and expenses very, very little.
UK should leave, and go win business elsewhere to create a proper global trading area, Middle East, China, India, N & S. America, Africa. Then go old school and re-arm to keep the ever blood sucking Germany (of Southern Euro countries) in check.
slap a nice 10% terrific on everything
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I've heard they were up all night playing darts and drinking beir. Thats why todays morning meeting has been put back till lunch.
dragon makes chekw look coherent. quite the task
Merkel allegedly keen on indexing child benefit to country of residence as Germany pays out more to Polish kids than we do.
Cameron and EU are show boating to give the allure of tough negotaiations. The fact is Cameron has asked for nothing of any substance, none of it is binding as their is no treaty change.
EDIT: Merkel isn't even present at the negotaitions, the EUs most powerful leader is a no show 😯 She's sending a signal about how important this charade is
Plus the EU army is a very bad idea - what is wrong with Nato?
The potential EU army and the number of countries close to Russia that want to join the EU is one of the reasons Russia is so unhappy about those countries and why it is keen to keep relations in the middle east.
Then go old school and re-arm to keep the ever blood sucking Germany (of Southern Euro countries) in check.
Nice to see this 'debate' has been re-invigorated by you and flanagaj with some first class ignorance and foreigner hating jingoism. If only we could go back to the days of dropping bombs on our neighbours instead of going on holiday there 🙄
On a more serious note, I may be mistaken but I can see Cameron being forced to back an out vote unless he pulls a rabbit out of the hat. He's backed himself into a corner by promising to win substantive reforms and the tory right will pin him to the wall on it. We could very well end up sleepwalking into the most catastrophic and far reaching decision in decades in order to solve an internal party political issue within the conservative party.
dazh - Member
Nice to see this 'debate' has been re-invigorated by you and flanagaj with some first class ignorance and foreigner hating jingoism.
Ya, as if I welcome another foreigner to share my cake. Me am no BritLand born native you know. Most foreigners do not like each other coz they ain't sharing the cake. Fact. 🙄
atlaz - Member
dragon makes chekw look coherent.
Do you have difficulty understanding general people or just non-native legal alien? 🙄
Or are you just having some sort of gag reflex? 😯
Ya, gag reflex ... 😆
I think a collective shrug will be more likely than panic.
I don't dislike the German people but the German state policies of destroying the Southern European countries for their benefit and then encouraging mass migration (for Germany's benefit), is only going to lead to more and more problems. Unless something is done then it is going to end very badly.
to put things in perspective LBC were just at the refugee/migrant camps in France and there was an afghan guy who had been there for 6 months, fled afghanistan because of the war/taliban activity after the war, and during the war had fought with us and been trained by us, and had pulled a wounded British soldier out of the front line. An MOD accessor said he would be clased as having PTSD.
He was stuck in the camp yet we allow tons of far eastern 'workers' into this country to benefit from our economy (possibly claim child benefit multiple times what they could get at home) and provide shoddy levels of workmanship (based on my experience).
nickc - Member1. have you seen the size of China? there are cities with those sorts of population numbers there.
No theres not.
2. How d'you know that in the future a UK govt won't decide that rather than support German jobs, they'd like to support British car jobs and slap import taxes on those Beamers, and Mercs?
And thats the reason Germany won`t do the same. If they can do it - we can too.
British PM love strutting about on the world stage, outside of the EU, we're a mid sized economy floating about in the Atlantic, which both the EU and US china and Russia will ignore
Russia may not be too interested in our markets ... China, USA and EU certainly are.
to put things in perspective LBC were just at the refugee/migrant camps in France and there was an afghan guy who had been there for 6 months, fled afghanistan because of the war/taliban activity after the war, and during the war had fought with us and been trained by us, and had pulled a wounded British soldier out of the front line. An MOD accessor said he would be clased as having PTSD.
I heard that also, what a story eh ? I dont believe a word, if he had helped a British Soldier to safety from a dangerous situation it would have been national news and Im pretty sure the wounded soldier would have come forward by now.
In answer to the original question - Out.
If the Eu had remained what we, the poor, uneducted and pitiful little people were told it was in the beginning (ie a common trading market, reduced barriers to buying and selling goods) then I would be keen to stay. However, it has become clear that the grand master plan was always to create a United States of Europe which IMHO will never work and not something I want to be a part of. So, right now, I don't really care what concessions Cameron may be able to get I think the whole project is badly broken and the best thing that we can do is leave it.
However, it has become clear that the grand master plan was always to create a United States of Europe which IMHO
No it wasn't. Some people want that, but a lot don't.
it's that 'ever closer union' thing that seems to catch people's attention.
to me, it sounds a bit like a cheesy wedding vow - technically meaningless.
to others, it sounds like The Borg are coming to assimilate us all. And make us drink [s]beer[/s] lager from 250ml glasses.
"No it wasn't. Some people want that, but a lot don't."
And you know that for a fact do you Mol? Considering what the original stated aim of the EU was we seem to have an awful lot of political aparatus in place these days including European Parliament building, EU MPs etc. All looks suspiciously like a federated union of member states rather than a trade agreement body. Although I can't recall where I saw it I seem to vaguely remember some revelations following Ted Heath's death that the grand plan had always been to grow the role and influence of the EU but that the politicians in charge at time had deliberately kept that information from the public to ensure less / no resistance. Who knows what the truth of the matter is but I do know that I don't like what we currently have or where it is heading so given the choice, I would vote for OUT.
elections to the european parliament are based on proportional representation.
Europe (as a federated union) is more democratic than the uk...
Any federation of states has a boundary between state and federal anyway. Your prpblem would be with too much federal power, as in the USA, not with a federation in general, I suspect.
The ever closer union issue is the crux. For those countries (2/3 of members) who are part of the € project this is a fundamental requirement. The € project will fail without monetary AND fiscal union and the greater political union that this requires. Even then it might fail due to the fact that the € zone does not satisfy the basic criteria for a common currency area.
For the other 1/3, the issues are different. However. when you look at the leaked negotiation documents (see yesterday's FT) you realise that we have a pretty good deal all in all.
Of course, these big issues remain to be addressed. In the meantime lets get frothy about child benefit - no really, lets....
ahwiles - Memberelections to the european parliament are based on proportional representation.
Europe (as a federated union) is more democratic than the uk...
Ya right I was born yesterday. 🙄
you realise that we have a pretty good deal all in all.
Well, we had an even better one till Bliar gave away 40% of our rebate in return for promised CAP reforms that never happened...
Well it looks increasingly like Dave's coming back with nowt. It'll be interesting to see how he tries to spin that. As anything other than Nige's birthday present.
Not that it was of any significance anyway - the total amount of the benefits we're talking about here is apparently 30 million quid a year. Neither here nor there really. So even if he gets everything he asked for, we're still effectively be voting on the status quo. As if it was ever going to be anything other than that?
[quote=TurnerGuy ]we allow tons of far eastern 'workers' into this country to benefit [s]from[/s] our economy FTFY
Merkel isn't even present at the negotaitions, the EUs most powerful leader is a no show She's sending a signal about how important this charade is
Probably can't stand to be in the same room...
I've just read Michael Gove is joining the out campaign. Well I'm definitely in then.
I heard that also, what a story eh ? I dont believe a word, if he had helped a British Soldier to safety from a dangerous situation it would have been national news and Im pretty sure the wounded soldier would have come forward by now.
It would be front page news if an afghan soldier helped a British one in combat?
I fear Cameron's give-me-what-I-want-or-else negotiating style is not very convincing when there is no "or else". What's the worst he could do? Organise a referendum? Tiens donc.
[quote=konabunny ]It would be front page news if an afghan soldier helped a British one in combat?Mibbe not, but there would at least be a Commando comic with the story in it, aye?
It would be front page news if an afghan soldier helped a British one in combat?
The story quoted on LBC if it had been true would have yes !
Did you hear the story ?
