Our delightful local friendly Tory voted no deal and against everything else apart from that vague 2 year Fysh thing. Presume that was basically the party line.
Shock post by the Panther that isn’t comic genius! Sh1t just got real
And even comedy isn't going to lessen the shit
What did people think was going to happen last night the ****ing clowns who can't see past their own ****ing existence we're all going to find a consensus no one wants the shit to stick to them
They had 9 ****ing options and can't decide amongst them on one.
The lot want kicking into the street
now, the electorate vote SNP and get tory/labour coalition. WTF.
It's very simple.
SNP is a significant threat to Labour seats in Scotland.
Without Scotland Labour is unlikely to return more seats at a GE than the Conservative party.
Labour won't align and campaign with the SNP because most SNP seats are seats Labour reasonably wants to win and needs to do so to return a majority.
You won't get a Lab/SNP coalition without massive gains in England for Labour meaning an obvious and outright win for Labour solely on votes South of the border.
You won't get a Lab/SNP coalition when that does happen since they won't need a coalition.
So realistically any vote for SNP is a vote for a Conservative government at national level, until IS, at which point Labour isn't likely to ever form a Westminster government again without a massive change in voting trends.
Other than the Scottish independence thing, the SNP would (IMO) stand a very real chance of returning a significant number seats UK wide, but they can't because they don't run UK wide because IS.
So start either voting for what you want not against who you don't and accept the government might not represent you but your local MP should (which is the way the system should work and would actually serve pretty well, though you'd end up with a much more colourful Hoc)
Or if you want to vote "anything but a tory" vote for someone who can win, not someone who can't.
I too am particularly unimpressed with those MPs who did not vote in favour of anything. That's an abdication of their responsibilities and/or a pathetic attempt to curry favour within their own party.
Maybe we should just go with direct rule from Brussels.
mrmonkfinger
Member
Our delightful local friendly Tory voted no deal and against everything else apart from that vague 2 year Fysh thing. Presume that was basically the party line.
as did mine, Ive emailed the inspid muppet to voice my opinion of that
They had 9 **** options and can’t decide amongst them on one.
Had they stuck with normal binary voting they would have likely reached a consensus. The issue with that is no one wanted to go first whilst there are still other "good" options on the table. The point of last night was not to form a consensus but to see if there already was one and, if not, to at least get an idea of which way the wind is blowing so you know which way to go when you try to build a consensus.
You won’t get a Lab/SNP coalition without massive gains in England for Labour meaning an obvious and outright win for Labour solely on votes South of the border.
You won’t get a Lab/SNP coalition when that does happen since they won’t need a coalition.
So realistically any vote for SNP is a vote for a Conservative government at national level,
That's not true though. We could have a minority Labour Government with support from the SNP if the latter held the balance of power.
'So start either voting for what you want'
always do, never been a tactical voter.
ultimately, I wish to see Independence.
My local MP (Nigel evans) also voted no no no no apart from no deal and the fysh piece of sht. True to form
I think we're seeing a correlation with these MPs and the average STWer. Do we tend to live in affluent semi rural, elderly Tory safe shires to be nearer the trails?
Just been listening to the Richard herring podcast with al Murray from may 18 and he makes some excellent points about brexit, how MPs are treating brexit as sport and it's their generation that hold the reins of power now. The comedy guys in Oxford used to s**** at the nascent politicians like JRM. Amongst discussions of which chocolate bar He'd prefer to have shoved up his arse
Had they stuck with normal binary voting they would have likely reached a consensus. The issue with that is no one wanted to go first whilst there are still other “good” options on the table. The point of last night was not to form a consensus but to see if there already was one and, if not, to at least get an idea of which way the wind is blowing so you know which way to go when you try to build a consensus
Ok then now they have an idea no one is going to pitch their tent in any camp pick the top two from the list of non legally binding theatre they produced and see where that goes.
I hazard it's still too many for them to take a stab at because God only knows what the reasoned thinking is in that place
The comedy guys in Oxford used to s**** at the nascent politicians like JRM. Amongst discussions of which chocolate bar He’d prefer to have shoved up his arse
JRM pays Nanny extra for using the Toblerone
dangeourbrain
Subscriber
now, the electorate vote SNP and get tory/labour coalition. WTF.It’s very simple.
SNP is a significant threat to Labour seats in Scotland.
Without Scotland Labour is unlikely to return more seats at a GE than the Conservative party.
Labour won’t align and campaign with the SNP because most SNP seats are seats Labour reasonably wants to win and needs to do so to return a majority.
You won’t get a Lab/SNP coalition without massive gains in England for Labour meaning an obvious and outright win for Labour solely on votes South of the border.
You won’t get a Lab/SNP coalition when that does happen since they won’t need a coalition.
So realistically any vote for SNP is a vote for a Conservative government at national level, until IS, at which point Labour isn’t likely to ever form a Westminster government again without a massive change in voting trends.
Other than the Scottish independence thing, the SNP would (IMO) stand a very real chance of returning a significant number seats UK wide, but they can’t because they don’t run UK wide because IS.
So start either voting for what you want not against who you don’t and accept the government might not represent you but your local MP should (which is the way the system should work and would actually serve pretty well, though you’d end up with a much more colourful Hoc)
Or if you want to vote “anything but a tory” vote for someone who can win, not someone who can’t.
What a steaming pile of horse piss.
Labour returned more seats in England in 1997, 2001, 2005
Tory returned more seats in England in 2010, 2015, 2017. You lot are due to switch at some point(no doubt soon as labour get rid of Corbyn and put someone more electable in position.)
The idea that labour can't ever win in england is nonsense.
And if England can't stomach a supply coalition with the SNP, well that's their problem. They seem to get on fine with the DUP...
God only knows what the reasoned thinking is in that place
"Who's round is it? ", same as everywhere else.
That’s not true though. We could have a minority Labour Government with support from the SNP if the latter held the balance of power.
I'll believe it when I see it. I honestly can't see it being done on any basis but indyref 2 and, if that goes through and we end up with IS the coalition vanishes since the SNP want nothing the Labour Party can give after that. Labour will in my life time not return a majority in England /Wales unless the electorate goes colour blind over night and oh, more importantly, the SNP don't want brexit so aren't likely to help Labour deliver it. Whilst I'm sure there would be many would find it poetic, being in power to deliver brexit before closing the border and applying for IS membership of EU isn't going to sit well with the EU (though macron might find the giant screw you too RoUK very satisfying)
Ok then now they have an idea no one is going to pitch their tent in any camp pick the top two from the list of non legally binding theatre they produced and see where that goes.
It is however a step further from where we were, at least the idea there is some sort of consensus in parliament that the govt won't listen to has been rubbished. In practice it has indicated parliament doesn't want any sort of leave but doesn't have the guts to diy anything about it.
Labour returned more seats in England in 1997, 2001, 2005
Ah yes, the Blair years.
You're right, when the Labour Party is more tory than the Conservative party they do quite well.
Least they were half way competent, I think you'll find that was the biggest defining factor. If labour can't beat the current shambles of a tory party that's their problem.
And if England can’t stomach a supply coalition with the SNP, well that’s their problem. They seem to get on fine with the DUP…
The UK government has an arrangement with the DUP, not England.
If labour can’t beat the current shambles of a tory party that’s their problem.
Completely agree (that the opposition can't oppose the government really is all our problem though, irrespective of which part is which).
I just find it laughable that people vote x then complain z didn't win, like the few very loud remoaners (and I do mean that in the worst connotation) I know who didn't actually vote at the referendum and now whinge at every opportunity, including from the minute the result was announced, about brexit.
There's a great chart here visualising the voting from last night.
Check out @awstojanovic’s Tweet:
And that there is a wonderful representation of everything wrong with our system.
Vote candidate, get party.
I just find it laughable that people vote x then complain z didn’t win.
that's my point, majority voted X
and got Y/Z
that's a shambles.
ansos
The UK government has an arrangement with the DUP, not England.
I get that, but the fear tactic of a labour/snp colation was used heavily in england for the 2015 election.
There’s a great chart here visualising the voting from last night.
Check out @awstojanovic’s Tweet:
So looking at that - the most popular option is Referendum, then Customs Union, then Labour's alternative plan...
Wow.
dangeourbrain
Subscriber
If labour can’t beat the current shambles of a tory party that’s their problem.Completely agree (that the opposition can’t oppose the government really is all our problem though, irrespective of which part is which).
I just find it laughable that people vote x then complain z didn’t win, like the few very loud remoaners (and I do mean that in the worst connotation) I know who didn’t actually vote at the referendum and now whinge at every opportunity, including from the minute the result was announced, about brexit.
tbh, not voting in the ref, considering the lack of info or clear picture of what it meant, was probly a reasonable position. Why should you take a leap of faith one way or the other if you just don't know?
So, yes, they have every right to complain. Not voting is perfectly valid and shouldn't exclude you from the conversation.
If the indicative votes were used to inform what parliament should get the opportunity to vote on next… that might be…
"To approve the Withdrawal Agreement, with the PD changed to indicate that the UK seeks a Customs Union with the EU to minimise the long term impact on Ireland and UK manufacturing, and to put the whole package to UK voters in a referendum during an extended period of membership negotiated with the EU (or using revocation of A50 if extension refused)."
Lots in there that isn't what I want… so much lost personally and for our nations if the public votes to support Leaving on those terms (very likely)… and it still requires lots of decision/negotiations with the EU that is likely to fail… but it is the compromise that those votes suggest parliament could make for us.
Why should you take a leap of faith one way or the other if you just don’t know?
Mandatory voting, but with an option that says "don't know" or "none of the above" is looking more and more desirable to me, both for the public and MPs. Voting needs to be made easier for both though. Yes, I know postal votes are easy… but in this century, it can be made so easy that making it mandatory wouldn't be a bind for anyone. And while lobby voting is great drama, there should be the option for MPs to vote remotely if they have good reason.
Don't agree with mandatory voting either, if people don't want to engage it's up to them. counting the dunno's is pointless and introducing more of an element of random chance to results isn't going to help anything either.
MPs, should be able to remotely vote, and the HOC should have electronic, instant voting.
Why should you take a leap of faith one way or the other if you just don’t know?
Not having an opinion is fine. Having one and not acting on it is fine. Having one, not acting on it then complaining that it didn't turn out as you wanted isn't.
Not really, they made a mistake. I'd personally not hold someone to that forever.
Not really, they made a mistake. I’d personally not hold someone to that forever.
In the particular cases i know of first hand it wasn't a mistake, they genuinely didn't care enough to vote but they care enough to bang on and on and on about how they/we were robbed. There is no contrition, no recognition that remainers not voting might be just as much to blame as 350 million on the side of a bus (they were vocal about that at the time too). It is as ever (in the case of the two people I work with) all someone else's fault, going to the pub instead of the poling both had nothing to do with it.
You can complain about the state of things now, no matter how you voted in 2016, or even if you didn't. Our MPs were elected since then, and still need to do their jobs, and they represent all of us, including non-voters.
I get that, but the fear tactic of a labour/snp colation was used heavily in england for the 2015 election.
IIRC, it was used by the conservative party during the campaign to elect the UK government.
dangeourbrain
Subscriber
Not really, they made a mistake. I’d personally not hold someone to that forever.In the particular cases i know of first hand it wasn’t a mistake, they genuinely didn’t care enough to vote but they care enough to bang on and on and on about how they/we were robbed. There is no contrition, no recognition that remainers not voting might be just as much to blame as 350 million on the side of a bus (they were vocal about that at the time too). It is as ever (in the case of the two people I work with) all someone else’s fault, going to the pub instead of the poling both had nothing to do with it.
Largely no-one is discussing these people apart from you tbh. But still you crack on with your crusade.
ransos
Subscriber
I get that, but the fear tactic of a labour/snp colation was used heavily in england for the 2015 election.IIRC, it was used by the conservative party during the campaign to elect the UK government.
As a tactic in England, what is so hard to understand here?
I know someone who voted tory because tehy were scared of the SNP having power over labour in coalition
Ironic as we now have the DUP holding the nation to ransom & the SNP looking far more mature than most of our current government!
Anyway the plan to try & seperate the WA from the PD in a vote tomorrow is going down in the commons like a massive turd.........
The idea that labour can’t ever win in england is nonsense.
It is, but it certainly doesn't help having SNP poach 30-odd seats does it?
Ah yes, the Blair years.
You’re right, when the Labour Party is more tory than the Conservative party they do quite well
Well, that's quite clearly silly. New Labour were not more Tory than the current lot of conservative dimwits.
What a steaming pile of horse piss.
Gotta stop you there. How does one pile up horse piss? Isn't it a bit runny for that?
molgrips
Subscriber
The idea that labour can’t ever win in england is nonsense.It is, but it certainly doesn’t help having SNP poach 30-odd seats does it?
It's only in the last 2 elections, 2015/2017 where it's made the slightest bit of difference. majorites are usually higher.
Need to go back to 1974 for labour for it to have affected labours win.
Cougar
Subscriber
What a steaming pile of horse piss.Gotta stop you there. How does one pile up horse piss? Isn’t it a bit runny for that?
Freeze it in blocks, stack it up, then melt it quickly. Et voila, a pile of steaming horse piss! 😆
Frozen horse piss can steam. Triple point and all that. And I used to ride, and have seen it happen. So bucket of piss, freeze, turn upside down… will steam while melting.
Well, that’s quite clearly silly. New Labour were not more Tory than the current lot of conservative dimwits.
And, back on topic, current Labour leader is more Eurosceptic than any Tory PM in my lifetime. Does that make him "more Labour" than our last few Labour PMs? Or "more Tory" than many Tories? All pointless over simplifications when so many different policies need to be taken into account.
For me, as I can't see them revoking article 50, and I think it is highly likely that we wont get a referndum on a remain/may's deal question; I think the pragmatic course of action would be to apply for a long extnension, with the provison that mays deal will be approved once the future realtionship has been agreed by the country. Then there can be a referndum on how we leave wich will fill in the PD. THere coudl be Four choices that are agreed as feasible with the EU from soft as soft can be to as hard as may's deal allows. That way we would respect the 2016 result as most MP are so obbseesd with, we would, in theory, be giving more faith to democracy, and the fate of the country wont depend on which tory nut job comes clawing to the top of the pile.
Well said Kelvin. As someone who spent the first 18 years of their working life living with a Tory government, I know this sh*te about New Labour being worse than the Tories is utter bollo. Boils my p that the anti-Blair rhetoric propagated by the RW press was taken up by the old Trots in Labour to get rid of him on behalf of the Tories! The Tories and their buddies in the press knew they’d never get re-elected with Blair as PM without a stitch up or two, and concerted smear campaign.
So looking at that – the most popular option is Referendum, then Customs Union, then Labour’s alternative plan…
Is Labour's alternative plan the as-yet-undefined magical one where Corbyn waltzes off to Bruseels and negotiates something much better that absolutely sums up what "Leave" means for the entire country?
A bit like Theresa's magical plan using undefined "technology" to prevent a return toa hard border in Ireland?
Honestly, I'd be surprised if Corbyn could even find Brussels, he seems to have an amazing knack of being in some quite out-of the way places when he really needs to be in the action. Kind of like unveiling a statue in Morecambe when the People's Vote march is happening in London.
So the plan for tomorrow is MV2.5, bercow said he will allow it
WA only without the PD
which is an even blinder brexit than MV3 was gonna be, so cant see Labour liking it?
and still includes the backstop that DUP & ERG hate
how is it likely to pass?
Just seen the "britain bites back" Facebook page - comedy gold 😀
Freeze it in blocks, stack it up, then melt it quickly. Et voila, a pile of steaming horse piss! 😆
Good work. I'm glad to see you've put some thought and effort into this.
+1 Bowglie
dangeourbrain
So realistically any vote for SNP is a vote for a Conservative government at national level, until IS, at which point Labour isn’t likely to ever form a Westminster government again without a massive change in voting trends.
This was proved to be utter horseflops by the last election, I can't believe people still spout it. Labour's "anyone but the SNP" campaign up here was a massive factor in the Tories returning 13 MPs- ie, putting them in power. It was vote tory, get tory. Then SLAB declared their 2.8% increase in voter share to be a victory. It was madness, and let's not replace it with some alternative history because if we do, they might well do it again
(I think fundamentally the scottish labour leadership, such as it was, thought that the tories were going to win by a landslide and just didn't care much about who won, as long as they could harm the SNP. Amazingly Dugdale managed to be a worse leader than Murphy, at least he was only passively awful)
Cougar
Good work. I’m glad to see you’ve put some thought and effort into this.
Been stripping paint off doors all day, so had plenty of time to come up with a solution! 😆
Marina Hyde. Laugh or cry, this is all good bits:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/28/spartans-jacob-rees-mogg-steve-baker-brexit
Theresa May offered Tory MPs her pending resignation if her deal was passed, but the DUP trophy brides she spent a billion quid on have still declined to back it. Thus the prime minister crosses into the realm of philosophical paradox: she is too weak to resign...
breakfast television featured quarterwittery from Mark Francois. Of May’s deal, the ERG vice-chair declared: “I wouldn’t vote for it if they put a shotgun in my mouth.” Plenty more where that came from, no doubt. When you think of all the ball-gags that must have been worn by Tory MPs down the years, it really is a tragedy that one couldn’t be found for Mark...
Boris Johnson, who has spent months calling the deal “vassalage”, “slavery” and so on, culminating in a porphyric Telegraph column on Monday in which he channelled Moses in Exodus to demand: “LET MY PEOPLE GO”. Following May’s resignation promise, this same Boris Johnson announced he will now be voting for the deal. Yes – huge soz to the Israelite slaves, obviously, but it turns out Moses is going to try his luck on the Egyptian career ladder after all. Bum around court a bit, knock up a couple of the Pharaoh’s daughters, tell a few hundred off-colour jokes. But you guys go ahead and he’ll totally catch you up. Save him a place in the middle of the sea. If it helps, he’s written two opposing versions of the Ten Commandments. I know! Classic Moses.
Just seen the “britain bites back” Facebook page – comedy gold 😀
Is that the one that keeps running the same poll until it gets the result it wants, and was at one point screaming that only group members (ie, people who agree with them) should post? The fail is strong with that one.
So labour & dup say they won't back mv2.5...
Even when the can has been reduced to a couple of hollow circles joined by tatty strips of tired alloy, she [i]still[/i] insists on hoofing the poor thing Harry Kane-style down the road just as hard as she's f***ing able. Good job for her the EU Can Cruelty Prevention Regulations are yet to come into effect.
Here's an idea ...vote for part A
Wait to see if there's a reasonable part B
Sorry? You mean prepare to Leave (in a manner that cedes all control to the EU) and work it all out later? Screw that!!!
[ sorry - beer ]
Is that the one that keeps running the same poll until it gets the result it wants, and was at one point screaming that only group members (ie, people who agree with them) should post? The fail is strong with that one.
Fairly certain it's a windup
Here’s an idea …vote for part A
Wait to see if there’s a reasonable part B
Part A has the backstop that everyone hates
And I believe it limits the time to vote on part B....
Fairly certain it’s a windup
Possibly, TBH I haven't looked at the page beyond the odd post cross-posted to my feed.
As a tactic in England, what is so hard to understand here?
I find it hard to understand why you would refer to England as a monolithic entity, when you're actually referring to parts of the conservative party and its campaign to be elected as the UK government.
Well May's deal does sound like a Top Gear spin off for endless repeats on Dave....
I've been out all day and didn't get the chance to reply to where I see Monday going.
First up MV3 1/4 is dead, she has lost the DUP as she won't be there to cash the cheque, The opposition don't want to be stuck with a BoJo or Raab Brexit (except Kate Hoey)
So that brings us back to Monday, at this point the least popular options need to be removed.
Flip No Deal around to Completely disagree with no deal.
Move to exclusive options or hybrid options.
Could be:
Apply for extension to resolve a new deal based on Options 1-3
Resolve to put any withdrawal to the People as a separate line
That is if they do not call a Vote of No Confidence after her MV3 and a bit and trigger a GE - new leader and a perfect trap to make the tories elect a new leader (who will have to be so pro brexit they might as well call them Borris Rees Raab) ad then pit them against a more remain electorate and fight this one proplerly.
can't help thinking she wants to get anything across the line ( no matter how badly it &*&*s the country up ) as some sort of perverse lasting legacy. hence the reason to be willing to fall on her sword and rsign if she gets her way.
Load of spineless charlatans the lot of them.
I have not heard one decent interview where any MP has said the UK will be comitting financial suicide and destroying the future of the next generation and the whole thing needs de-railing right now.
hence the reason to be willing to fall on her sword and rsign if she gets her way.
Stolen from another reply, but she fell on her sword and missed. Oh dear.
This one? Nicola Sturgeon at First Ministers questions today "Theresa May must be the only leader in history who has tried to fall on her own sword... and missed!"
I have not heard one decent interview where any MP has said the UK will be comitting financial suicide and destroying the future of the next generation and the whole thing needs de-railing right now.
Try BBC parliament during the debate tomorrow night
I think the TM is suffering from an inability to understand sunk costs. She's spent 2.7 years on this deal, so if it doesn't pass she's wasted her time, as she sees it, so it must get passed. Unlike the ERG, she doesn't have an ulterior motive (except protecting the Party) and genuinely thinks she's doing the right thing. If she really wants to 'deliver the will of the people', she needs to accept that there may not be same support for leaving with her deal in 2019 that there was for the vision put forward by Vote Leave in 2016.
She is literally so crap she can't resign. How crap do you have to be to find yourself in that position?
can’t help thinking she wants to get anything across the line ( no matter how badly it &*&*s the country up ) as some sort of perverse lasting legacy
I've thought this for a long time, her WA is Trump's wall.
can’t help thinking she wants to get anything across the line ( no matter how badly it &*&*s the country up ) as some sort of perverse lasting legacy
like 3 weeks on opiates and not a prune is sight she keep on trying
I think I'd take David Brent over Tess at this point.
Quotes on #Newsnight attributed to "a minister" were fantastic, and can't be posted on here.
So you have me watching Newsnight on Iplayer 😉
Mistruth One
Lothsome says the only way the EU will extend until the 22nd (or whatever) is to vote for the deal
False - it's the only question that Tm asked about it's not the only option on the table.
Edit if I ever look like Bill cash does with a head stuck on top of a fake body with collar done up please end it for now
Oh my that is a fantastic statement, come the end they will all claim they said that!!
I was taken aback! I had to pause, rewind and play again, then call wife into the room to show her (didn't seem bothered)
JRMs fake laugh after Stephen Kinnock railed against UK becoming the cayman islands was particularly nauseating
As JRM gets backed into more and more corners and have his views put back to him he sounds more and more like Jeremy Thorpe 😉
You are taking the Whip from the DUP Fantastic - I'm sure somebody compared him to Putin recently 😂
Yeah, that laugh was chilling.
Varoufakis just offered the best compromise.
Leave with a CU/SM for an indefinite amount of time and then figure out what to do next.(whether that is a 2nd ref etc.)
He says the time limit has created the problem (as well as poor Tory deal making.)
He also says the EU will accept this.
People said this in 2016
"That's not what people voted for" was the response.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47739303
OK so being a little behind, did I just see one of the list of trade deals was with the Palestinians?? I must applaud Liam Fox for crossing boundaries there.