What about TTIP and they potential issues for the NHS that people think this might have.
If we stay in the EU is there a good chance it will get chucked out as there is some opposition to it, and if we come out will we sign up to it, or its equivalent, and then this will lead to the privitization of the NHS as a lot of this forum fear the conservatives want to do, although in this case it won't be the tories that have architected it, it will have been the EUs fault for having drafted something so dodgy in the first place.
No problem JY. I knew the quotes were not mine. Was not sure if the comments refered to the quotes.
I advise everyone to watch this before voting:
So employers are paying under minimum wage? They shouldn't. If they are paying minimum wage then they aren't too low as lots of British people ARE working for minimum wage.
Not sure how you jumped to that conclusion and the minimum wage is not my point. There are many jobs above the minimum wage Brits won't do, there was a tv piece a while ago with a Polish ladybworking in a shop who said she's here as Brits won't do that work. Ditto farm labouring, too hard too poorly paid (note another STWer posted on another thread something like "yes its far to hard who would do that for the money on offer" - both he and I had done farm work when students).
Welshfarmer you do it as you have a dream, you think it's just for now and you'll go on to do better things.
When you know that's it. That's all you've got. There is no energy. Let's not forget those that came over sought work, sort opportunities.
We can all build stereotypes in many areas and many experiences.
There are lots of people who want work in the UK but either can't find it as there is competition for even basic work or its that **** that you are depressed and can't see a long-term future in it. Controversial but why didn't the laid off miners simple do your sort of work willingly and with gusto? Could you? I couldn't. People who have the travel/cross countries, ambitious feel can. I remember as a young teenager I was stuck working in McDonalds and hated my future then.
Don't knock our working class.
Anyway I'll let the Torybots keep following Dave and co.
Mining was not an unskilled industry in the 80's. Thousand employed as pit managers, engineers, safety advisors, pit designers, cutting machine opearatives and fitters and all the industries this serves.
To say they should all be fruit picking is very simplistic.
The same could be said of all the bank managers, asset managers, bank clerks, directors, restraunteurs and shop keepers in Canary Wharf after the crash in 2008. How darw the proles suggest such a thing.
Ditto farm labouring, too hard too poorly paid (note another STWer posted on another thread something like "yes its far to hard who would do that for the money on offer" - both he and I had done farm work when students)
Indeed, why do back breaking manual labour for minimum wage when you could make coffee for the same money?
Left in that situation, the manual employer is left with the choice of paying more to attract staff or hiring in a load of Romanians who will lap up the UK minimum wage compared with what they get paid at home.
It's nothing new, Why do you think that Oz, Barry, Neville and Bomber were living on a building site in Germany? However it sure as well pushes down domestic wages, because you only need to pay people enough to live ten to a portakabin or shipping container rather than people who need to earn enough to support a UK house and family.
when the poles first came over they worked like mad, did the work of 2 UK workers. 15 years down the line and they have to use Romanians to do the same jobs now as the Poles aren't interested in the mundane manual work any longer. Begs the question, what happens one day in the (not so distant) future when there is no-one willing to do the most shit jobs.
Thats when the EU lets Turkey join
Anyway I'll let the Torybots keep following Dave and co.
says the man who votes Tory
So for all those complaining about immigrants undercutting wages what is a fair wage for picking veg?
How much more would you pay for your food?
The great shining light of immigration control of Australia relies heavily on backpackers for cheap labour and seasonal work, all of who arrive on a basic visa you pay a few quid for.
The bit a lot of people dont get is some of us see immigration as a positive, it actually works and is positive to the economy.
How much more would you pay for your food?
I don't think that it's an unreasonable proposition that we should expect to pay farmers more than the cost of production.
It's a strange world we live in when a bottle of milk is cheaper than a bottle of water.
Hora, please do not claim to speak for the working class.
if we come out will we sign up to it, or its equivalent, and then this will lead to the privitization of the NHS as a lot of this forum fear the conservatives want to do
Don't worry. We'll be back of the queue for trade deals, [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36120808 ]remember[/url]? By that time, the Tories will be long gone and we'll have had a good 10 years to see what TTIP (in whichever form it finally gets introduced by the EU) has done to the EU member countries.
However it sure as well pushes down domestic wages, because you only need to pay people enough to live ten to a portakabin or shipping container rather than people who need to earn enough to support a UK house and family
More unsubstantiated imipmigration nonsense - 136 pages in and anecdotes aside not a scrap of evidence to support the idea that immigration "sure as well pushes down domestic wages." Why? Because it doesn't exist. It's very simple. At best there are specific areas where it might have a small negative impact. Otherwise BS.
At least you attempt a rationale Ninfan, just a pity that it is not supported by any factual evidence. And the counter anecdote? I wrote a reference for a previous EE employee - she worked her way up in hospitality, bought a house, got married and is having a family. Not a portakabin in sight.
Good morning reading
https://next.ft.com/content/7c7f2dbe-3474-11e6-bda0-04585c31b153
Obviously it is hard to avoid all this misinformation and propoganda from both sides, and I was leaning towards in, but the uber-secret way that TTIP has been constructed combined with the content of TTIP is enough for me to seriously think that leave is the correct vote.
Corbyns idea of staying in to effect change is a nice idea but won't happen.
Bookmarked that. Thank you.
I'm seriously wavering as to in or out. The leave campaign has no real idea what would happen if we left and are pedalling a load of immigration bullshit, if we stay in we get more of what we have, I guess. More countries joining, more majority decision making from Brussels. The remain camp seem only able to pedal fear of unknown consequences.
My heart says leave. I despise the waste and inefficiency of the EU bureaucracy, the fact that we don't have a final say on things like trade deals and VAT.
My head says stay - a jump into the unknown may rock the boat and 10-20 years down the line what mess might we leave for our kids.
I don't want to make the wrong decision for the kids.
the fact that we don't have a final say on things like trade deals and VAT.
An awful lot of the big things the EU does need to be OK'd by each member, that includes us.
The remain camp seem only able to pedal fear of unknown consequences.
The official campaign, maybe, but there's lots of positive info and grassroots stuff about all the excellent things we have gained by being in the EU and what we'll continue to get if we remain.
More countries joining
Maybe, maybe not. No chance of Turkey or other countries which don't meet the criteria getting in any time soon at all.
but the uber-secret way that TTIP has been constructed combined with the content of TTIP is enough for me to seriously think that leave is the correct vote.
You seriously think the rabid Tories wouldn't cook up something even better were we out of the EU?
I despise the waste and inefficiency of the EU bureaucracy,
Is this waste any worse than the UK's? Any specific examples? And don't forget that if we wish to keep selling into the EU after Brexit, we'd still have to meet whatever regulations the EU puts in place, only we wouldn't have any control on what they were.
the fact that we don't have a final say on things like trade deals and VAT.
And I'm afraid that's just bollocks. We (the UK) have representatives that must ratify trade deals, and we have representatives that debate pretty much anything that's cooked up in Brussels. You'll also note that the Tories, not the EU, raised VAT from 17.5% to 20% in the UK 2011.
I think you'll find the remain campaign pedals fear that is backed by facts. Facts that are rather inconvenient for the jingoistic little Englander that resides inside most of us somewhere.
I don't want to make the wrong decision for the kids.
In which case, vote remain. There's a very good reason why the demographics of voters are skewed the way they are. The overwhelming majority of younger voters want to remain in as they see the opportunity membership provides. The fact that the Leave campaign is dominated by rich old white blokes with a hankering for a long lost Empire should be no surprise.
The comparison with the Scottish independence referendum is striking. In that, at least one side was trying its best to present a positive, hopeful case for the future, and in general it was lively but civilised on both sides.
This EU referendum is toxic. Both campaigns have peddled fear and lies - more so with the overt lies on the Leave side, but the Remain side haven't held back from Project Fear either.
At the start of the campaign, those of us in Scotland tried to remind the Remain team that Project Fear in Scotland turned a 30% lead into a narrow win, they didn't have that kind of margin to play with.
A pox on both their houses. This is what happens when both sides are run by Tories, playing out an internal party struggle and dragging us all into the gutter as they do.
This is what happens when both sides are run by Tories, playing out an internal party struggle and dragging us all into the gutter as they do.
+1
The positives of remaining are clear.
The EU exists to tie all our fortunes together. So that we have no choice but to work together for the greater good. This is a good thing. We become neighbours and friends, instead of enemies and rivals.
I've lived in two other EU countries. Many people I know have done similar. My Facebook fees is full of good friends from all over Europe. This is overwhelmingly positive, in my view. I was a migrant, and we all benefited.
The money that we pay to the EU, we get back and more in terms of trade and investment.
The positives of remaining are clear.
I agree with you, the Remain campaign could have risen above all this and played a positive, hopeful campaign. But they didn't, they ballsed it up.
This was posted by mikey74, but if you're even considering voting 'out', just watch this: the man has impeccable credentials btw-:
/p>
The other thing to note is that, if your response after you've seen it is "ah, another one of those experts!, they're in the pocket of the govt/Goldman Sachs/The Illuminati, I can now ignore this" then you are Nigel Farage and I claim my £5.
Cody, unfortunately we've entered a post-logic, post-fact world with this referendum. People are voting based on emotions, and the emotions are anger and fear.
The comparison with the Scottish independence referendum is striking. In that, at least one side was trying its best to present a positive, hopeful case for the future, and in general it was lively but civilised on both sides.
Ben I do admire your positivity even when it is misplaced - who said history was written by the winners!!! 😉
Zokes largely +1
We are a successful vibrant and OPEN economy that thrives on trade and investment. Membership of the EU provides an important boosts to both and to the other key drivers of national income (consumption and government spending)
Membership of the EU allows a cooperative and harmonious relationship with our closest trading partners and with the RoW. The two are not mutually exclusive.
The costs and obligations are minimal. Financial costs is <1% of GDP, we maintain sovereignty and control of key policy areas| - monetary, fiscal and supply side policies, independent Central Bank, floating exchange rate - our Parliament remains sovereign and we maintain control over our borders.
Again, I come back to the blank sheet of paper argument. Go away and write down how you would like to interact with our neighbours and closets trading partners. Write down the things that you would want and the things that you would seek to avoid. Step back, breathe, and look at what we have.
Don't then shoot the gift horse!
Anyway, run done, tennis next, rugby watching and ride to come later. Bon Samedi as nos amis would say!
This was posted by mikey74, but if you're even considering voting 'out', just watch this: the man has impeccable credentials btw-:
>/p>
The other thing to note is that, if your response after you've seen it is "ah, another one of those experts!, they're in the pocket of the govt/Goldman Sachs/The Illuminati, I can now ignore this" then you are Nigel Farage and I claim my £5.
I think it's worth sharing wherever you can. However, trying to bring it to people's attention feels a bit like shouting "calm down" at a football riot.
[i]It's a strange world we live in when a bottle of milk is cheaper than a bottle of water. [/i]
That's marketing - it's not that the milk is too cheap but that the water is too expensive.
You seriously think the rabid Tories wouldn't cook up something even better were we out of the EU?
but that is the point, we can vote out the tories if they did something like this, whereas the EU is so removed from us we can't.
Watch the paxman documentary on the business of us voting stuff down.
I've watched the LSU video above, but the mere fact that TTIP had to be done in so much secrecy is outrageous, let alone the content.
The only upside is that more european leaders are starting to complain.
bencooper - Member
Cody, unfortunately we've entered a post-logic, post-fact world with this referendum. People are voting based on emotions, and the emotions are anger and fear.
Indeed we have Ben. I think the man's appeal to reason may be falling on deaf ears; the madness of crowds and all that.
I've watched the LSU video above, but the mere fact that TTIP had to be done in so much secrecy is outrageous, let alone the content.
I agree, but both of our 'main' parties seem perilously close to being pro-TTIP, so how would an exit help us here?
It's a strange world we live in when a bottle of milk is cheaper than a bottle of water.That's marketing - it's not that the milk is too cheap but that the water is too expensive.
Except the milk [i]IS[/i] too cheap. But that is another argument and has nothing really to do with EU membership
If you don't go for ****y lifestyle brands of water. Water is cheaper than milk. Some of you should visit lidl once in a while! 😆
Or just turn on your tap, the stuff comes out of there pretty cheaply! 😆
@welsh how can British farmers compete with other parts of the EU where land is so much cheaper (and they have plenty of it) and wages are so much cheaper ?
Turner thanks for that L-Exit movie, very interesting 30 more mins to go
@cody et al I have listened to the Professor, will write up my notes and post later
TMH and @mefty the BoE said immigration depresses wages, Rose (ex M&S CEO) and chair or Remain said so too
As for Remain and Leave being dominated by the Tories Labour need to take a long hard look at the real reasons they have decided to be anonymous, is it really a short term "anything but the Tories" strategy or is it that really they and their leadership don't actually believe in the EU.
Corbyns not for ttip and there are quite a few tory mps against it as well, plus we wouldn't get ttip anyway, we might get something similar one day though.
@seaso yes indeed, tap water we already pay for and bottled water can be had for 20-30p a liter
I despise the waste and inefficiency of the EU bureaucracy
That Ipsos Mori report from a while back - the "everything we think we know about the EU is wrong" one - said that while the average estimate of the inefficiency of the EU from people in the UK is 27%, in reality it's actually just 6%.
but that is the point, we can vote out the tories if they did something like this, whereas the EU is so removed from us we can't.
Actually all you can do is vote for your local mp, if the rest of the country votes for something different then that's what you get. Aiui we have some vetoes or exclusions over eu decisions so the UK as a part of the EU effectively has more power than your mp as a part of Parliament.
More unsubstantiated imipmigration nonsense - 136 pages in and anecdotes aside not a scrap of evidence to support the idea that immigration "sure as well pushes down domestic wages." Why? Because it doesn't exist. It's very simple. At best there are specific areas where it might have a small negative impact. Otherwise BS.
Dustmann, Frattini and Preston conclude that the [i]average[/i] effect may be mildly positive, Immigration clearly depresses wages below the 20th percentile - it's unacceptable to dismiss this with a wave of the hand as 'specific areas of the economy' since these are the people most heavily affected by the low skill, low pay cycle, often in post industrial areas where poverty rates are high and social inclusion low, the very areas that should have benefitted most from the creation of jobs
At least you attempt a rationale Ninfan, just a pity that it is not supported by any factual evidence. And the counter anecdote? I wrote a reference for a previous EE employee - she worked her way up in hospitality, bought a house, got married and is having a family. Not a portakabin in sight.
but that is the point, we can vote out the tories if they did something like this, whereas the EU is so removed from us we can't.
what you actually said
the uber-secret way that TTIP has been constructed combined with the content of TTIP is enough for me to seriously think that leave is the correct vote.
This Is called moving the goalposts- you are claiming your claim was something it was not rather than addressing your original claim
we have a veto @ the EU and sit at the top table as one of the big three we dont need to "vote them out"*
How do I vote out the lords and our head of ftste as it looks to me that they are elected and there by birthright...i can only imagine your reaction were the EU like this
* we can
This was posted by mikey74, but if you're even considering voting 'out', just watch this: the man has impeccable credentials btw-:/p>
The other thing to note is that, if your response after you've seen it is "ah, another one of those experts!, they're in the pocket of the govt/Goldman Sachs/The Illuminati, I can now ignore this" then you are Nigel Farage and I claim my £5.
Very interesting thanks. Too many facts though, needs to be pared down to a catchy one word headline or an emotionally charged image to appeal to the Daily Mail/Express/Sun reading masses and compete with the vote leave campaign.
The main thing I'm taking from this referendum is that referendums are an extremely bad idea for something as important as this. The majority just don't have enough information or just aren't intelligent enough to be able to make an informed decision. And I'm including myself in that statement.
@welsh how can British farmers compete with other parts of the EU where land is so much cheaper (and they have plenty of it) and wages are so much cheaper ?
[IMG] 
[/IMG]
Actually all you can do is vote for your local mp, if the rest of the country votes for something different then that's what you get. Aiui we have some vetoes or exclusions over eu decisions so the UK as a part of the EU effectively has more power than your mp as a part of Parliament.
This Is called moving the goalposts- you are claiming your claim was something it was not rather than addressing your original claim
I defer to Corbyns arguments in that video I posted, as he knows better than me. He's changed his mind it seems, but that does seem based on being able to change the EU in the future.
But my case still stands, how could such an agreement even be thought up in the first place, and then to be done with such crazy amounts of secrecy.
If the tories had done such a thing you guys would all be frothing at the mouth, so I don't see why you accept it here.
I am trying to figure out if the OUTers have actually read the widely mis-quoted BoE report?
Obviously not Jambers. Or Boris for that matter:
[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/watch-the-moment-boris-johnson-admits-he-hasn-t-read-a-report-after-misquoting-it-a7082996.html ]Have you read it?[/url]
Mr Salmond, however, continued to interrogate the former London Mayor. He asked: “Have you read that study Boris? Have you actually read it,”After a short silence, Mr Johnson replied: “I have not read that study”.
Mr Salmond added: “Can we just nail this because I’ve heard this from a number of people. So I’ve taken the trouble of reading the study… it says a 10 per cent rise in immigration would result in a one third of one pence diminution in average wages. One third of one pence."
jambalaya - Member
TMH and @mefty the BoE said immigration depresses wages, Rose (ex M&S CEO) and chair or Remain said so too
Nailed in the same article:
It comes as Lord Stuart Rose, the chair of the Remain campaign, said he had been misquoted over claims wages would go up if Britons voted to leave the EU – adding they would in fact go down.He told the Guardian: “I would say this, wouldn’t I, but I was misquoted. I was asked a straight economic question … which is if labour goes down in availability, what happens to the cost of labour and the answer is simple economics, the cost of labour goes up.
“But that is not anything to do with the actual argument about whether we should or shouldn’t be in the bigger community. What we really have to be sure about is a continually growing economy, which I believe we have more chance of doing in a 500 million-person community and the largest economic bloc in the world.
BSers have no shame in misusing any stat.
Personally I would feel embarrassed to be caught out on every point in an argument. Obviously that have skins as thick as a rhino!
That diary graph is quite interesting, in that apparently our farmers can't compete with the lower costs of others but they somehow manage to export the best part of a £1bn.
but that is the point, we can vote out the tories if they did something like this, whereas the EU is so removed from us we can't.
Shifted goalposts aside, some points to consider:
1) 66% of the population voted the Tories out at the last election. Unfortunately due to our antidemocratic system, they're still there.
2) Our upper house is unelected
3) Our head of state is unelected
4) The heads of most branches of government apparatus in the civil service are unelected
Changing any of these four things would have a far greater material effect on the level of democratic control exerted by UK citizens than leaving the EU would. If we're all so het up about being told what to do by people we didn't put there*, why not get the guillotine out? I'm sure the French would lend us one, presumably without any import/export tariffs if we remain.
*EU elections aside 😉
This sums up my position quite nicely.
Shifted goalposts aside, some points to consider:
1) 66% of the population voted the Tories out at the last election. Unfortunately due to our antidemocratic system, they're still there.
2) Our upper house is unelected
3) Our head of state is unelected
4) The heads of most branches of government apparatus in the civil service are unelected
Again I refer you to that Corbyn video...
Again I refer you to that Corbyn video...
It would be better if you just considered the point I was making. You stated that if the UK government did something the majority didn't like, we could just vote them out. That's a statement which is demonstrably false. Fewer than 25% of the voting age citizens of the U.K. voted for the party currently with outright majority in the lower house. We have no elections to change the upper house, or the head of state.
Again I refer you to that Corbyn video.
The video does not address the points Zokes raised nd neither have you
You do know what a debate is dont you as you seem to be avoiding addressing any counter points made to you?
If Corbyn reckons they are an unaccountable bureaucracy, that's good enough for me. Explain why he is wrong to have that impression?
All I'm doing is highlighting the [b]far greater unaccountability[/b] which rests [b]much closer to home[/b]. If you're worried about democratic representation, surely fixing the problem that is both larger, and easier, should be the priority?
Or, is this the point where it becomes obvious to you that accountability of governments to their electorate isn't that important to you after all, and your problem with the EU actually lies somewhere else?
Michael Dougan's speech.
Sovereignty. An academic argument from an academic, pedantic in the extreme. Yes we as a sovereign nation made a free choice to hand power to the EU but its like a ratchet or a boaconstrictor round your neck you can give individual powers but you can never get them back, the only option is the all-or-nothing one, to withdraw completely. That's not Soveriegn control of your own affairs. He also deliberately confused the work of Parliament and our own Civil Service suggesting one was sovereign and the other was not.
Trade. He spoke much about trade and the complexity of various agreements and their importance. He said nothing about the fact that much of the trade in the world takes place outside free trade agreements and no other free trade agreement has the kind of political oversight and control of the EU (see additional comment below). If it where such a good idea and so valuable others would be working flat out to achieve the same, and they are not. The reality is quite the contrary.
He raised very briefly control for Northern Ireland and the Republic, something which is easily resolved and has already been addressed, the border will remain open. A further Scottish Referendum, Scotland spent 2 years debating their future, enough time to consider all scenarios. Even if there was another vote sometime in the distant future, not in Salmond's lifetime as the man said himself, then we can deal with that at the time.
He also said quite clearly how much deeper the EU goes than any other trade pact. Thats is exactly the point that those of us who are Leave have identified as one of the key reasons to get shod of it.
Finally I have to say a Professor with a job for life (security of tenure?) at Liverpool University specialising in International Law and Social Justice is not who I'd pick as impartial. The Law is a subject of nuance and interpretation, thats why we have courts to weigh up the balance of the arguments
and your problem with the EU actually lies somewhere else?
what are you implying ?
66% of the population voted the Tories out at the last election. Unfortunately due to our antidemocratic system, they're still there.
2) Our upper house is unelected
3) Our head of state is unelected
4) The heads of most branches of government apparatus in the civil service are unelected
1) no they did not, they voted for someone else - it was not an against vote. If we had a French stype Presidentail election where the top two candidates have a direct run off in a second round of voting then perhaps you could say that, but we don't and you cannot.
2) Its appointed and it reviews legislation proposed by the Commons - as such in EU terms the Lords does what the EU Parliament does and the Commons does what the EU commission does. The exact opposite democratically
3) Yup, a ceremonial role
4) the Civil service does what our elected representatives tell it to do, including for example only working on Remain campaign requests
what are you implying ?
Turner they are desperately clutching at straws
Sovereignty. An academic argument from an academic
You say that like its a bad thing 😯 his point is true we are sovereign - if not why are we having this vote as its not up to us 😉
His point is incontrovertible hence why you shot the messenger rather than did a correct appeal to his authority 😆
Its appointed
So we agree they are not elected, excellent.
and it reviews legislation proposed by the Commons - as such in EU terms the Lords does what the EU Parliament does and the Commons does what the EU commission does. The exact opposite democratically
NO
Bills/Laws require the assent of both houses here UNLESS its a budget or we wait two years and BOTH houses can propose bills.
The commision can only propose laws they cannot vote on them.
what are you implying ?
He is saying the democratic deficit argument is weak because we are less democratic than they are so you cannot object to their lack of democracy whilst we have an even less democratic system. Therefore you dislike the EU for other reasons and this is a "red herring".
😆they are desperately clutching at straws
Turner they are desperately clutching at straws
I work in the financial sector, in the city, as a programmer. Got a lot of years under my belt, in an ageist industry.
If the city got shafted by brexit it will affect me, so an In vote seems obvious.
I was also leaning toward In, thinking that maybe the giant of the EU is maybe a good 'blocker' to the government, etc, but it seems to me that free movement is really only benefitting businesses who can get cheap labour and it isn't benefiting the lower skilled workers who now face a lot of competition and, if they have families, are not as mobile as the people they are competing against.
Combine this with the way Greece has been shafted and the attempt to bring in TTIP, and the EU looks increasingly undesirable.
He is saying the democratic deficit argument is weak because we are less democratic than they are so you cannot object to their lack of democracy whilst we have an even less democratic system. Therefore you dislike the EU for other reasons and this is a "red herring".
so you are saying that Corbyn has it wrong as well ?
[b]He is saying ....you dislike the EU[/b]
MOVING THE GOALPOSTS AGAIN
I was wary of the EU but had almost convinced myself that I had no grounds, but on looking a bit more I am changing my mind again.
Finally I have to say a Professor with a job for life (security of tenure?) at Liverpool University specialising in International Law and Social Justice is not who I'd pick as impartial. The Law is a subject of nuance and interpretation, thats why we have courts to weigh up the balance of the arguments
Jambas, how would you describe the one economist who does appear to be on your side (ok there may be a handful, let's not exaggerate) Patrick Minford? What his role and where? Do you put any value in his contribution?
Turner thanks for posting that film, I am very glad they got the Crowdfunding together to make it. Very much worth the hour to watch it in full. It makes all the points I have tried to make and does them in a firmly left wing and trade unionsists voice.
This Referendum is without doubt a cross party issue, its an issue for everybody.
TurnerGuy - Member
I work in the financial sector, in the city, as a programmer. Got a lot of years under my belt, in an ageist industry.If the city got shafted by brexit it will affect me, so an In vote seems obvious.
Nahh ... it will Not affect you with that skill set of yours coz you are in demand.
At the moment EU is like a slow shipwreck that you know is heading into the abyss but you somehow procrastinate or simply enjoy the cruise because you only see clam water surrounding you ... Titanic did not see things coming but the current EU white elephant just ignores all the signs ...
The company you work for will wait to see before they make any moves. If your company is doing well now it is very unlikely they will depart from UK because competitors will jump in at the opportunity. It is business after all and if there is profit they are there.
Question is will your company let you go and let competitor snaps you up with the knowledge you have about them? Bear in mind, if your company let you go then they have no say whatsoever when your company no longer hold office here.
@tmh as I said I don't give a lot of weight to economists full stop, I haven't read much of any economic output from either side. I couldn't name a Remain or a Leave economist. I am with Her Majesty who during a visit to the LSE why they hadn't predicted the financial crises, they took 3 months to reply to say they did not know. It was "group think"
It makes all the points I have tried to make and does them in a firmly left wing and trade unionsists voice.
the spirit of Bob Crowe is alive and well in you Comrade.
simply enjoy the cruise because you only see clam water surrounding you
I can live with that 🙂
[img] 
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Our trade with the EU (from the L-Exit film). As they say in the film and I've said on numerous occasions its a stagnant exonomically failing political project, "its where it was, not where it is" - Galloway is always good for a soundbyte
The EU want us in as we've deep pockets, we contribute a huge amount of money to the budget amd we are a very very good customer.
[img] 
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😆 D'Oh! ... I blame the keyboard. It's calm not clam ... arrghhh ... someone has adjusted me keyboard.yunki - Member
I can live with thatsimply enjoy the cruise because you only see clam water surrounding you
By the way you like eating bottom filter (clams)? Aren't they toxic? 😆
Truner the argument that the EU somehow "blocks" the Tories says two things, 1) people think Labour can never win and 2) that they completely ignire the possibility (or even the current reality as per the film) that the EU becomes (is) a right leaning organisation, at which point they are banjaxed as they can do nothing to unseat them.
I am thinking of blocking in terms of regulations getting in the way of the tories doing anything too radical.
Not convinced on the workers rights being safer with the EU either.
The company you work for will wait to see before they make any moves.
My company won't move but I was more concerned about the banks really, zee germans are always trying to move the financial centre their way.
Anyway, about the dairy graph. How much is down to the apparent appetite of the British for European cheeses and the utter lack of knowledge on the continent of our superior produce.
Oh and what impact would OUT have on that graph? Will the deficit improve or get worse?
OK would you accept that the same criticisms of both Profs?
Given that you have produced no evidence to the wild claims or been able to answer any of my simple questions, I am not sure who/what you are using to base your decisions on. But that is not unique, it seems to be true of all/most OUTers.
Since the central points of the VL/BS campaign can all be falsified with ease, this is unsurprising and were it not such a serious topic I might respect your bravado and thickness of skin. As it is, the willingness to stand up for complete nonsense and stuff that you cannot provide any evidence for beggar belief.
Even the BoE claims - in specific cases - that the impact of immigration on wages is small. From this we get wild exaggeration and bold claims built on sand.
Ditto, look at the trade graph above. Wonder why the dates are chosen for the historic period and who produces the forecasts for the future?
At what point does this become embarrassing?
TurnerGuy - Member
My company won't move but I was more concerned about the banks really, zee germans are always trying to move the financial centre their way.
Are you kidding! Zee Germans are even more cautious to make emotional move. Yes, their Chancellor might retaliate but you think bank will forgo profits and money due to slight changes? It is highly unlikely they will dismantle their structure here if they are still making profit ... German machine is least likely to be affected emotionally ... sorry to say this but profit comes first.
Edit: I can bet you that there will be new incentives to retain/attract foreign investors ... the govt is not sitting there to rot you know.
TMH and @mefty the BoE said immigration depresses wages, Rose (ex M&S CEO) and chair or Remain said so too
lets see...
This paper asks whether immigration to Britain has had any impact on average wages. There seems to be a broad consensus among academics that the share of immigrants in the workforce has little or no effect on native wages. These studies typically have not refined their analysis by breaking it down into different occupational groups. Our contribution is to extend the existing literature on immigration to include occupations as well. We find that the immigrant to native ratio has a small negative impact on average British wages.
Hmmm, not quite the same thing is it....furthermore the small negative impact is less than the last time.
On top of that, since the last two relatively poor E European countries have been admitted and had access to the UK labour market, average earnings have risen. Which suggests either (1) a positive effect or (2) and more likely, there are other far more important factors at work.
Nevertheless, far easier to blame those nasty foreigners. Bastards.....
what do you think Tories mean when they say cutting red tape?Not convinced on the workers rights being safer with the EU either.
Neither is that great on workers rights but tories will clearly give us less- social charter gone - end of Time directive etc.
It wont be massive initially but it will if we give them 20 years.
The polls look to be swinging toward leave, its quite a scary prospect, Im not talking about the damage our economy might see as we leave the EU
rather that the bigots, xenophobes and racists see this outcome as a victory
"Death to traitors, freedom for Britain",
are people on here still trying to deny that Tommy Mair was a Britain First supporter?
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