[Closed] EU Referendum - are you in or out?

The EU takes decisions one step further from the voter, which I don't like.

@seaso do we have a veto on a new trade agreement or is that majority voting ? Genuine question.

@mike the MEP have no real power, they cannot propose laws. All they can do is talk and approve or decline what is put in front of them, the cannot set policy. The EU should just be hinest with people and abolish the Parliament and have the Council formally and visibly in control instead kf the current deception.

@slack indeed, the Establishment vote is Remain. That's why over his whole career Corbyn has been against - he is just falling into line as Party leadsr and going with the official party position. If he wasn't leader the would imo be campaigning for Leave

thebees - Member

Dr. J - We have no control over TTIP under the EU

But that's a good thing, because we have one of the most pro-TTIP governments in Europe, and David Cameron praising himself for having the "courage" to sell us out. How does leaving the EU help us here?

Again not really backed up by any facts

Well I don't get to vote for the people who draft the laws.

jambalaya - Member
@seaso do we have a veto on a new trade agreement or is that majority voting ? Genuine question

My main point was the lack of protest from any of our elected leaders though.

Uk. Civil servants draft most UK laws, that would be a hell of an interview panel wouldn't it.

Voting for an MEP is an illusion of democracy. You are effectively voting for somebody else to vote, but who will be massively outnumbered. Even worse if you don't believe in the idea of the EU to begin with.

Come on @mike, the EU Parliament is a deception plus a grand excerize in cushy jobs for the boys/girls, a sort of never mind the quality feel the width bureaucracy 🙂

@seaso we saw how much say we had in the appointment of Junker to the most important position in the EU. Even being caught red handed with his hands on the controls of billions worth of highly dodgy tax corporate evasion deals which the EU subsequently declared illegal. The result, nothinghe carries on and they take the whistleblowers to court and threaten to throw them in jail

You are effectively voting for somebody else to vote, but

mikewsmith - Member

Uk. Civil servants draft most UK laws, that would be a hell of an interview panel wouldn't it.

I can only imagine you're pretending you don't know the differences between the EU and the UK.
Do I really need to explain it all in detail? I don't have the time for a full on Junkychat!

Care to comment on your mate Juncker?

We can only take down one bureaucratic institution at a time. House of Lords is next on the list !

Sbob not at all, more the point that most of the laws the UK is subject to are drafted by civil servants, you know unelected bureaucrats - exactly what your complaining about. With the eu stuff the UK gets to veto stuff it doesn't like once it's gets to the unelected upper house.

I think the amount of stuff forced upon the UK by the eu is easily found in one of the fact checks, it's a lot less than you think.

@seaso we saw how much say we had in (insert issue)

Jamba, that's just the Scottish argument that they never get their way at Westminister. I disagreed with that then, and I still do, it's not un democratic, just a different level of democracy. ie we have the european level to the national level to the regional to the local level, there will always be layers of democracy.

On the Scottish side, I just take a different approach. Not that Westminster is undemocratic, just that it largely becomes an un-necessary layer on top of Scotland, particularly as the Scottish parliament gets more powerful ad europe gets closer.

I believe as Europe becomes more integrated, which it will, Scotland should have its own voice on a European level.

I'm just struggling with one thing. Could the Outers tell me how a victorious Boris Johnson, installed in Downing Street, accompanied by the most ultra Right Wing cabinet this country has ever seen, once freed from the shackles of EU beurocrats, will set about making all our lives better?

Off you go.....

Having Boris as our glorious leader is appealing. You'd have absolutely no idea what happen, but whatever it was, it would be funny.

I'm sold.

There is no manifesto from such a government. How the heck would we know how our lives would be changed ?

@binners for me that's a stupid and short term argument. Same as the Scottish one about tory governments. Voting for a one way massive irreversible change to sort out a government you can change every 5 years is childish and short sighted.

Which exactly are the terrible laws that the undemocratic EU has forced on us and which prevent us from fulfilling our manifest destiny to lead the world? I mean, apart from the bendy bananas one of course.

In or out, Boris would get in depending on him securing party leader nomination AND not ballsing up his election campaign. Less we forget countless Tory and Labour leaders have ballsed up their campaign (The Mekon, the other bald one IDS), the character from creature comforts/Wallace & Gromit etc.

Is being in the EU currently as good as it gets or am I to think 'my house value may drop if we leave' (im more bothered about other things).

As I said before the remain camp has some real choice politicians. You are aligned with call me Dave binners along with Brown who fragged our economy.

mikewsmith - Member

Sbob not at all, more the point that most of the laws the UK is subject to are drafted by civil servants

How do these drafts get heard in the UK?

How much influence do our MEPs have?

How about the EU's leader's dislike of democracy?

Working Time Directive. How can concur the world if people are allowed time off.

I just don't fancy seeing a bunch of right wing ideological zealots turn the country into an Ayn Rand theme park

How do these drafts get heard in the UK?

And again what nasty nasty laws has the eu pushed down on the UK. I'll go easy find me 5

In or out, Boris would get in depending on him securing party leader nomination AND not ballsing up his election campaign.

That's sort of the thing - out of the EU we give the whole democratic duty of choosing our nations future to a bunch of people who are dumb enough to elect Boris, or whatever washed up TV personality comes after him.

Why would Bois be leader? His blatant narcissism has been exposed here. He behaves like a fool not a statesman.

Good question Doc....I asked several on this topic lags back with no response.

So let's be specific - for starters

Monetary policy - how will this change post Brexit and why will it be better?
Fiscal policy - as above, can we be specific on how we will raise more tax revenue to spend?
Supply-side policies - as above.
How does making our exports more expensive help our trade deficit (or are we going to devalue to overcome tariffs etc?)
How does making imports more expensive help the poor or an of us?

Thanks.

I believe as Europe becomes more integrated, which it will, Scotland should have its own voice on a European level.

@seaso the big advatange Scotland gets from being a region of the UK is its a net beneificiary financially. The UK loses sovereignty and buys more from that it sells to the EU and we [b]pay[/b] for that privilege 😯 Personally I think we should be paid to be members, its like anchor tennets in a shopping mall - the big shops get a big discount - ot costs them less to be in the mall than indepedent outside and the smaller shops are happy with that as the big players bring in the shoppers.

It's the principle which is in question here, not the individual laws. If I got access to your bank account and spent the money wisely, would you then be happy to pass me full control of your income ?

Why would Bois be leader?

May
Fox
Gove
Osbourn
Johnson

Who is going to beat him ?

It's the principle which is in question here, not the individual laws.

If I got access to your bank account and spent the money wisely, would you then be happy to pass me full control of your income ?

If it was you or the crack addict next door, then yes.

Boris will be leader because the grassroots of the Tory party, who are all insane, get themselves worked up into an orgasmic frenzy over his Rule Brittania bollocks

TMH import tariffs are small beer in comparison to fx moves anyway and they don't seem to be holding back the US, China or India ? I really don't see a situation where our currency is weaker today than the euro 2, 3 or 5 years forward whether we are in or out. If there are tarrifs fhe UK will be the winner, more money in than going out. You are again ignoring being locked into a low growth / recession orientated European superstate project

On TTIP I don't think we should worry too much about that, it won't be signed before the US elections and if Trump wins he's going to tear it up / ignore it - he won't sign "someone else's" trade agreement and anything new he would put forward will be even more unpalatable to the EU.

Boris will be leader because the grassroots of the Tory party and many MPs want him as leader,[s] who are all insane, get themselves worked up into an orgasmic frenzy over his Rule Brittania bollocks[/s]

I have ti say Cameron and Osbourn's conduct during the Referendum has done for both of them. My MP in her reply to my letter was very clear about why she would be camlaigning for Leave, Cameron has blown it and IMO somhave the EU as if they had budged on a few key things including freedom of movement (whuch many Germans and French don't want either) they could have ensured a Remain victory. Now it looks too close to call.

Ironic isn't it? That the man who spent the campaign complaining about a lack of democratic accountability will then be installed as PM by the constituancy associations of the Tory party.

You really couldn't make it up.

Is that your British or French mp?

Sorry too easy 😉

Anyone thinking party political games with this vote is an idiot it's far more important than that. Anyway any leavers want to try the questions on the last page, little bag of haribo for the neatest handwriting

jamba 20 of the 28 eu states have less than 12 million population. we wouldn't be the smallest, we'd be around 20th.

and lets just not go down the financial argument route re scotland again.. I don't measure these question on that, and i don't think we should do.

Hmm, not answering the question.....no change there

You decide if you want to bother as we know the answer. So tariffs are a new revenue raising wheeze now?

So locked-in? Hmmm, this so-called lock does not prevent us trading at the moment nor are we part of the superstate project. That is a requirement of a single currency arrangement that we are not part of. Why do you guys keep making stuff up?

DrJ - Member

Which exactly are the terrible laws that the undemocratic EU has forced on us and which prevent us from fulfilling our manifest destiny to lead the world? I mean, apart from the bendy bananas one of course.

I'm not too worried about bendy bananas, besides, that was repealed.
Only took 13 years.
Another reason why I don't like big governments.
I don't want to lead the world, I just don't want to be dragged down by it. You may have forgotten that there is pretty serious financial doo-dah going down, which someone will have to pay for.

I pay taxes and vote in the UK as its my primary residence 🙂

Binners we have a system where we vote for parties not individuals (as do the Germans). You'd rather have that than the French system where the Socialists can't get rid of the least popular leader in history who is now bypassing parliament to push through labour reforms.

@seaso - really there are 7 members with populations less than 5m ? Luxembourg, Malta ? Anyway its a moot point as the Referendum was once in a lifetime and no other leader is going to sign another Edinburgh agreement, certainly not a Labour one.

pretty serious financial doo-dah

Well, you've got me convinced. Almost.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_population

TMH my guess is as good as yours no one knows as Varoufakis said - we have a sample size of zero to look back and analyse and no one should trust an economist to predict the future (I assume you watched Marr). So your answer and mine as well as all the economists and politicians are equally worthless.

Can you imagine the immigration debates we would be having right now if the population increases in europe and north america where even close to the levels the other regions of the world received in the past 50 years! 😆

https://www.google.co.uk/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&met_y=sp_pop_totl&idim=country:GBR:AUS:CAN&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=sp_pop_totl&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:AUS&idim=region:NAC:ECS:EAS:LCN:MEA:SAS:SSF&ifdim=region&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

I'm not too worried about bendy bananas, besides, that was repealed.
Only took 13 years.
Another reason why I don't like big governments.
I don't want to lead the world, I just don't want to be dragged down by it. You may have forgotten that there is pretty serious financial doo-dah going down, which someone will have to pay for.

Right you are, forgot how small Ireland is too 4.5m. Slovenia, Latvia, Lithuania, Cyprus etc - quite what voice you think Scotland as an independent country and new member would have I don't know, plus you need to get past the Spain/Basque/Catalonian politics - I can see a big fat veto there.