[Closed] Dawn Butler

Has the Police explanation for the stop been proved to be a lie?

In no way am I defending racist Policing, nor mistakes in this case, just asking the question.

I wonder if JRM or Penfold or Cummings ever get their Sunday afternoons interrupted so rudely

I doubt it, but then Cummings did have to interrupt his Bank Holiday to tell a pack of ludicrous lies to the nation so.....

Where does common sense end and paranoia begin?

Common sense ends when you're nine times more likely to be stopped by the police in England if you have the same colour skin as Dawn Butler.

What I dislike about all of the numbers that have come out of the BLM movement this year is that most of them relate to police behaviour - I'm not particularly sure that the police are any more racist than the rest of the country, but it's the police that get clobbered because theirs is such a scrutinised sector. Makesyou wonder what goes on that isn't tagged, labelled and measured.

and the Police appear to have gone quiet on releasing the video on the Bianca Williams stop

Because the cops have all the power.
A racist shop keeper might make your life worse but he doesn’t call all his colleagues and throw you in the back of a van if he takes against you.

Because the cops have all the power.
A racist shop keeper might make your life worse but he doesn’t call all his colleagues and throw you in the back of a van if he takes against you.

Exactly - a racist shopowner can spoil your day, racist cops can, potentially, spoil your life.

I’m from Yorkshire. I own what I consider to be a ‘nice’ car. I wouldn’t expect to be stopped for being ‘out of my area’, as the police are suggesting was the reason here.

The Met police have issued an apology to Dawn stating that they had input the reg wrong, although this seems to be a common excuse for disproportionately stopping black people.
It appears that there's more criticism of the police as they are the most visible and violent institution, they're not the only institution which is racist. Education is also institutionally racist but it is much harder to raise a complaint (in Scotland) as they aren't accountable to an Ombudsman.

I got stopped once. In fact, I’ve been stopped more than once

Me too. Twice in my entire life, one of which was when I was leaving a pub so seemed fair enough. The evidence suggests that if I were black I would've had a very different experience.

More cash.

The police gave 2 reasons for the stop. The first police officer talked about a wrongly entered number plate and something about the car being registered / not registered in Yorkshire. However she was stopped before the number plate was checked so that can't be the reason for the stop though is being cited as (a) reason for the stop.

The second officer implied she was stopped because they couldn't see what was in the back of her car.

Themes the facts, go fill your boots Sherlock.

For a bit of context, I heard David Lammy explain how him and his brother (a lawyer) were in their car when they were suddenly surrounded by armed police in 2017. One of the officers recognised Lammy before things escalated. He also recounted the first time he was stopped by the police when as a 10 year old, walking home from school he was accosted by a group of (I think) plain clothes police and in his words searched 'so roughly' that he wet himself there and then in the street. He has been stopped over a dozen times in the interim.

Sometimes the cases that get the publicity are not the best examples of the problem - the sprinter that was in the news last month was pulled over because of poor driving, the subsequent reaction and overreaction on both sides escalated it.

Now, it may be that a black driver driving badly is more likely to be stopped than a white driver would be, and that is obviously wrong. I'd like to think that all bad drivers would be pulled over regardless of race or creed, but that's my white male privilege talking.

I got stopped once. In fact, I’ve been stopped more than once. I just answered the traffic cop’s questions and went on my way

At what point would you think you were being picked on? Stopped 3 times? 6 times, 9 times? 20 times?  I've been hard stopped on the M62 by cops that included an armed team on the suspicion that I was a drugs dealer, that doesn't mean I can't appreciate that my chances of being stopped are considerably less than the average Black dude.

Derek Sharship.

Where does common sense and paranoia begin you ask? That's a sentence that doesn't really make much sense but whatever you intended to ask, the answer lies with the facts.

You got stopped once, or even more than once. I posted above how many times David Lammy has been stopped. Ask him where common sense and paranoia begin why don't You? Though I imagine that like you he answered the cops questions calmly, no mean feat when you're having a gun (no sorry, guns, best stick to the facts) wielded in your direction.

Though well done you for not pissing yourself in public when you were stopped.

The excuse of the car being in the wrong area just makes it worse.
Do they check plates of every nice/posh car driving through their patch? Or maybe just the ones with black occupants?
Time for Cressida Dick to put up or ship out.

The excuse of the car being in the wrong area just makes it worse.

This. Who in their right mind thought that was even the start of a good excuse?

inkster
Member

The police gave 2 reasons for the stop. The first police officer talked about a wrongly entered number plate and something about the car being registered / not registered in Yorkshire. However she was stopped before the number plate was checked so that can’t be the reason for the stop though is being cited as (a) reason for the stop.

The second officer implied she was stopped because they couldn’t see what was in the back of her car.

Sounds a lot like Neomi Barrett, where the officers involved said they definitely had a good reason for the stop, but then it turned out they hadn't planned well enough ahead, and so they gave different reasons for what that was.

More cash.

Yes, it could be your white male priveledge speaking, though it could just be that you're a bit gullible.

What do you mean 'Sometimes the cases that get the most publicity are not the best examples?' This isn't about uplikes or downlikes like on a youtube video. (Though maybe for you it is.) It's about right and wrong.

That you find the stop that resulted in the athletes being handcuffed acceptable twists my melons completely. You just swallowed Crecida Dick's excuses hook lie and stinker.

Try to be objective for just a minute. The police said they were 'following' a car and it failed to stop. Countinence for a second that the athletes were being tailgated by a TSU (hardcore police, not Juliet Bravo) van, hoping to intimidate the driver into a mistake. A van full of bored policemen stuck in the back getting hot and bothered on a scorching hot day in a City where the streets are deserted, their usuall prey on locdown. Could it be that they were both itching for a bit of 'action' and looking for any excuse to get out of the van to get a bit of fresh air? I can just imagine them now, getting out of the back of the van and one of them jokes 'I cant breathe.'

Consider that the reasons given to the media, (though curiously not in the police report given to the athletes) included variously: driving on the wrong side of the road on a single lane road......this might explain why the driver didn't stop immediately, instead looking for a place to pull over safely. After all, you wouldn't want to stop too suddenly and have a van full of angry SPG plough into to the back of you would You?

Driving an unmodified car. Apparently it's suspicious to drive a car with factory spec tinted windows. Though perhaps the windows were not tinted enough to conceal the colour of the occupants.

And of course they 'smelt cannabis' didn't they. Ever smelt cannabis more cash? Well if you haven't because youve lived such a cosseted life I'll tell you. It effin stinks....and theres many a thread on here that will testify to the fact. To accuse someone of potentially possessing cannabis when both the plaintiff and the accuser know there to be no cannabis present is incredibly serious. I can well imagine the woman was terrified that she was about to be framed and removed from her 3 year old child.

How do you over react to effectively being told your in possession of illegal drugs whilst in handcuffs looking at your baby on the back seat of a car? How would you handle it Mr cool, calm and collected?

Got stopped lots when I was a 21 year old yoof. Boss used to lend me his Astra GTE and even occasionally, the Sierra cosworth. I was fully insured through the job but a delicious target for the police.
After a while I think all the police knew who I was after a while and the stops diminished.

Either I'm really failing to try and get across any sort of cogent discussion on threads these days, or every Tom, Dick and Harry is getting ridiculously angry and preachy the minute anyone doesn't instantly agree with their more informed and researched opinions.

I was thinking it was the former, but I'm beginning to wonder.

Anyway, when I next smell cannabis when I'm out and about, I shall think how chilled the person using it is feeling and compare it to the reactions of some of the folk on here at the moment.

Derek, more cash,

Look. I understand someone has to stick up for the police on here, after all, there's been many police / ex police / people with police as family members on here over the years and they've been deafeningly silent recently. Why do you think that is? If I were under the microscope like the police currently are, I would certainly be making a case for myself and my profession.

I dunno. Maybe they're feeling guilty. The phrase 'part of the problem or part of the solution' springs to mind.

Anyhow. If somebody hasn't explained it to Crecida Dick yet....It's not the smell of cannabis its the smell of corruption.

Ok more cash.

To your question 'Has the police explanation for the stop proved to be a lie?'

Yes.

Was it in the case of the athletes?

Yes.

Am I angry?

Yes. Even more angry than the current spate of littering in beauty spots.

Am I preachy?

You asked the questions, rhetorical as they are. You can't preach to someone who asks questions but puts their fingers in their ears when furnished with some answers.

Sometimes the cases that get the publicity are not the best examples of the problem – the sprinter that was in the news last month was pulled over because of poor driving...

Is that actually right? I haven't seen any footage of the driving.

I got stopped once. In fact, I’ve been stopped more than once.

Was it because you were white?

I don't even know where to begin with this. The very fact that you've only been stopped "more than once" (what does that even mean, twice?) should speak volumes. How would you feel if your more than once was on a monthly basis?

And there are outliers. Of course there are outliers. I had a mate who back in the early 90s drove a Ford tigerstripe-liveried Sierra Cosworth. He was once bemoaning his lot as he kept getting pulled over by the police because he was "a young Asian lad in a nice car," he seemed genuinely surprised when I suggested that another contributory factor might just be that he drove everywhere like his head was on fire. If he didn't go round a corner on three wheels then he wasn't going fast enough.

These arguments happen, I could give you a few other examples too. But you cannot hold these up as proof of racism not being an issue just because you know one Asian bloke who drove like he stole it or one white bloke who has been stopped "more than once." I've been stopped shitloads of times over the years, but the number of times I didn't genuinely deserve it is precisely "once." I've had a couple of instances of police being dicks after the stop when they've realised were mistaken also, but they're the exception rather than the rule.

they’ve been deafeningly silent recently. Why do you think that is?

Well I’m one of those deafeningly silent people, and I’m happy to tell you why.

I don’t actually think I can make any useful contribution to the discussion. I’ve worked in the Highlands for the last 15 years. It doesn’t have the demographics London and other big cities have. I could actually list all the BME people I ever arrested or stopped when I worked in Nottingham before that, and what for, but it’s irrelevant. I might know a bit more than some about procedures or grounds for stopping and searching or even crime prevention/disruption tactics, but without knowing all the details of any of these incidents, that’s not much use either.

So I read the threads, this one, and the George Floyd one, and previous versions in the same vein, and try and have a better appreciation of all the points of view expressed. I’ve been on this forum a long time and have never automatically defended the police, just tried to give an explanation or clarity where appropriate. On this occasion I’m not in a position to do that.

Thoughtful and sensitive reply thegreatape. Thanks for your perspective.👍🏼

You’re very welcome 👍🏼

I have a few mates who are coppers & they're all a mixture of characters

Can't say I know how they are on the job, but all are different people.
One of my best mates left the job partly due to the inability of Merseyside police to deal with corruption.
like in any job, you get good ones & bad ones.

The Chris Rock point stands, Police is the job were you simply can't have a 'few bad apples'

Stw & mtbing being a strikingly white place, I'm not sure most of us are in a position to relate, but if owning a flash car & living in the wrong place meant getting pulled over every time you went for a drive, you'd all be furious.

there’s been many police / ex police / people with police as family members on here over the years and they’ve been deafeningly silent recently. Why do you think that is? If I were under the microscope like the police currently are, I would certainly be making a case for myself and my profession.

I dunno. Maybe they’re feeling guilty. The phrase ‘part of the problem or part of the solution’ springs to mind.

I've avoided responding as I don't feel I've been invited to a respectful open-minded debate.

However, for what it is worth. I have no guilt whatsoever and I'm not racist. As a cop I pulled over thousands of cars, sometimes with very little reason, and why not? The police can stop any vehicle just to check they are legal. I did it because I work hard and it was my job. I also made good arrests doing it.

In my personal experience very few officers are racist (with the exception of attitudes towards the travelling community and that is an entirely different debate).
Compared to wider society, levels of racism in my force are very low. Response teams these days are mostly filled with younger officers who are naturally more open-minded towards differences in race, upbringing, sexuallity and gender; again much like society in general. The old guard and their attitude's are yesterday's news.

I wasnt present at the above incidents so I can only speculate wildly like everyone else.
But, I would point out that good police officers should be active, stop cars, talk to people, run PNC check after PNC check and ask lots of questions. It's about working hard and proactively looking for criminals and problems. Simply responding to calls and driving round doing sweet Fanny Adams is lazy and pointless.

Also, a car registered from outside of the local area driving around at night is always worth a quick stop check, that's a completely normal thing for a police officer to do.

On a quiet night I would expect to pull over 20-30 cars. In the dark, usually from behind, I could barely see the occupants, let alone tell their race and I didn't care anyway. I'm sure a more than a few presumed I stopped them because of their skin colour and not just because they had their fog light on or had a non-conforming number plate.

inkster
Member

And of course they ‘smelt cannabis’ didn’t they.

Aside, but another US state court ruled that "smelling weed" is no longer an acceptable reason for making a search. Not because they're fine with people getting high in their cars, but because it's almost exclusively used as an excuse to make an illegal search.

In my personal experience very few officers are racist

If BLM has taught people anything, I thought maybe it was the idea that you don't have to be 'a racist' to engage in unwitting racist behaviour or perpetuate racist stereotypes etc. Unconscious bias provably exists, it's not even a matter for debate.

Aside, but another US state court ruled that “smelling weed” is no longer an acceptable reason for making a search. Not because they’re fine with people getting high in their cars, but because it’s almost exclusively used as an excuse to make an illegal search.

The argument is not helped by people making rubbish like this up. Maryland legalised personal possession in 2014. Because smell isn't good enough to tell between legal and criminal quantities the court ruled that it couldn't be used to justify a search. Nothing whatsoever to do with falsifying reasons to search. And you can see why the police might have thought their method still had merit, a bit like seeing a small amount of blood isn't enough to prove murder and might be legitimate but probably worth a look.

Thanks for responding greatape. I'll also give a nod to the chap who was thinking about joining the police who was asking questions in the George Floyd thread.

I've mentioned before that there were two lads in my 6th form who joined the police. One was a good mate, open minded, mature and didn't have an ego. The other one was the most overtly racist individual I've ever met. He also got fast tracked to detective.He was also a mountainbiker.

I can understand that the police are individuals, part of society. I also understand that the police as an institution has a duty to do its job equitably (to use the phrase Dawn Butler used) and as such should be under constant scrutiny.

I get that living up near the Artic circle you don't get much first hand experience of these issues so can see why you don't want to comment on what you haven't seen yourself and appreciate that. I'm also reassures that you are keeping up with these threads, if only from afar.

I'd be interested in what you thought with regards procedural issues though. What we've witnessed with the two incidents discussed seems to imply that procedure is back to front, the reasons given for a stop being invented after the event, and the information being fed to the media being at odds with the police report given to those stopped.

.

Not true ajaj. That's the legal justification ruled in the final case but it's the end of a campaign going back to long before the decriminalisation- not legalisation, it's still a civil offence- of personal possession, and a direct follow-on from the slightly earlier ruling that concluded that smelling for weed was itself a search and therefore an invasion of privacy- again with a final justification not directly linked to false claims, but as a result of longstanding campaigning about its abuse.

What's important isn't the legal rationale used but the journey travelled to get there.

Ajaj,

What were talking about here in the UK isn't wether the smell of cannabis constitutes a legal stop, we are talking about police claiming to smell cannabis when both they and their victim know there is no cannabis present. And victim is definitely the correct term to use in this instance. Being accused of something seriously illegal by a lying policeman is surely the definition of victimisation.

another US state court ruled

talking about here in the UK

I’ve mentioned before that there were two lads in my 6th form who joined the police. One was a good mate, open minded, mature and didn’t have an ego. The other one was the most overtly racist individual I’ve ever met. He also got fast tracked to detective.

Hang on.

Are you suggesting he got fast-tracked to detective because he was racist; that he got fast-tracked to detective because he showed promise as a detective; or am I reading too much into this paragraph?

As he was male he might have been fast-tracked because he was a Mason? No ability required except a sound handshake!

Timidwheeler.

Well I invited you, albeit in a passive aggressive way!

I don't think I am speculating wildly. I am looking at the evidence and how there's a contradiction between the police report and what was fed to the media.

The narrative played out by the police to the media in the athletes case was that they were driving erratically. As pondo said. Where's the video? Releasing the video early would have prevented 'wild speculation.

In not releasing the video either the police aren't telling the truth and the athletes are. Or, if the police are telling the truth and have video evidence to prove it but haven't released it then......then I don't know what. All that can do is create a toxic atmosphere of mistrust, much frothing at the mouth on talk radio and a tsunami of hate mail and threats directed at a black politician. Which it has. Which isn't good police in my book. It looks like the police playing politics.

Withholding video evidence will inevitably lead to speculation. To call it 'wild' is a bit pejorative to say the least.

I accept that you are not racist and also understand that you see stopping vehicles as an effective way of catching criminals. I don't accept that it's the right way to police the population though. If you are doing nothing wrong, the police have no business detaining you against your wishes. I wonder what others on here think about that? I guess it's a question of wether we see the police's job as maintaining the peace or enforcing law and order.

Appreciate your contribution to the debate though. I'm sure it's hard being a policeman at the best of times. And these aren't the best of times. And don't take this the wrong way, but it must be doubly difficult for you at the moment when the current poster boy for the police is a drunken, rascist Millwall fan!

It’s hard being a Policeman? Harder being a female Police Officer, come on, up your equality knowledge....And welcome to the new world that started a long, long, time ago!!

Sorry Wheelsonfire. My bad

All I can say in my defence is that I have not gender assigned police in any of my previous posts. Though accept that I may have made an assumption about the gender of the poster timidwheeler.

Now youve got me thinking that timidwheeler might be a female officer? Also in calling her/himself timidwheeler is that a clue as to her/his gender identity that I have missed? Or is that me being sexist in thinking that someone who called themselves timidwheeler could more likely, though not necessarily be female? But then I obviously didn't make that assumption initially, seeing as I used the word policeman in my response. Then there's also the issue that I had in mind the image of the male police officer from the battle of Waterloo photograph whilst I was writing the offending sentence.

I'm confused.... off to watch some Farmer Michael and Kathleen videos on YouTube. That should set me straight. No I don't mean straight in that way, I mean straight as in not bent... No I don't, I don't mean that at all.....

I have family who all were met police officers. Every one of them racist without doubt.

I have family who all were met police officers. Every one of them racist without doubt.

Are you saying all your family are racists?

NO. Just the ones that were met officers

There is another possibility.

Simply that someone looks different or does something different. Our eyes tend to be drawn to things that look different or act differently to the norm.

I had a crop of red hair when I was young and I got stopped more than my friends. This mirrored my experience at school where if there was any sort of stir going on the one who would be identified out of the mob would be me.

I also used to run if I was going somewhere, for example visiting a girlfriend in the evening I'd jog the 3 to 4 miles rather than walk. I learned not to do this once it was late because I'd invariably get stopped.

Where’s the video?

If there is one the video will be personal data and subject to data protection rules. It may also be evidence in the IOPC enquiry. Due process and human rights are more important than your curiosity, although those principles seem to be clinging on by a fragile thread.

Oh and TJ, before you get too carried away, the accusations of racism are made against the health service as well.

The idea that the police can just stop people randomly for absolutely no justifiable reason and demand to know what they’re doing and where they’re going is an appalling erosion on civil liberties and policing by consent.
This should be resisted by all sections of society, not just the BAME ones who are leading the way now.

Oh indeed. Recently some black chap had to make a video to help white folk like me identify the colours black folks skin goes when they are unwell

It was just a simple statement of fact tho about my family members.

Also, a car registered from outside of the local area driving around at night is always worth a quick stop check, that’s a completely normal thing for a police officer to do.

I call bullshit. I have driven all over the country in various (nice) company cars day and night. Rural and urban areas. I have never been stopped. Maybe if i wasn't white this would be different?

I always get stopped at Holyhead (on Saturday) if I’m on my own, by the customs and police, whilst families in mpv’s are rarely pulled over. This irks me as I loose my place in the queue. As soon as they see all the cycling gear the door is closed and I’m sent on my way. I also know that if I’m behind a van with a non English or Irish registration they will also be searched.

I call bullshit

I think that nicely answers the question why nobody with any real world experience responds to these threads.

He has real world experience of not being stopped by the police despite travelling to many different areas, as do many of us who have driven lots of miles as part of our jobs.

I haven't been stopped by the police since about 2007 (second time I've been stopped since I got my licence in '92), car had only been insured that day so suspect it flagged as uninsured when they checked the number. At the time I was doing 22k purely commuting - last couple of years I've been doing 30k a year for work (no longer, I'm glad to say 🙂 ).

In my personal experience very few officers are racist

I believe that few are actively and consciously racist, but there is an insidious problem of unconscious bias that is not being addressed in society, making it structurally racist. The police are not alone in it but as noted earlier, their actions have significant repercussions.

I think that nicely answers the question why nobody with any real world experience responds to these threads.

Various professional roles have meant working in inner city areas around Manchester and Liverpool, hazardous waste treatment facilities (disposal of drugs etc.), educational facilities for vulnerable young people. I could arrive at my destination at pretty much any time of day or night. I have traveled the motorway networks at all times of day or night. If the police wanted to stop me for a "quick stop check", I have given them more than ample opportunity. Real world enough?

I have never won the National Lottery.

Does that prove anything?

The idea that the police can just stop people randomly for absolutely no justifiable reason and demand to know what they’re doing and where they’re going is an appalling erosion on civil liberties and policing by consent

Driving is not a divine right. You can be stopped by the police to check that your vehicle is being driven with the correct licence, valid insurance ect. This is a new thing and certainly not an erosion of your civil liberties.

Real world experience?   We have a Kuga & and a 3 series with blacked out rear windows.  I've never been pulled over in my life, I'm 48.   My wife however has been pulled over 3 times in the last 24 months.

She's Black.

A police officer has been able to stop any car without reason since at least the road traffic act 1988, it may have even been possible before that under another legislation. It's very difficult to see any details of the driver from behind while driving

"It’s very difficult to see any details of the driver from behind while driving"

Yes it probably is but you are making the assumption that the police car was behind the "suspect" vehicle at all times and did not see the occupants at any point.

I have never won the National Lottery.

Does that prove anything?

That their is no racial bias in random numbers being chosen by a machine, which has no relevance to racial bias in policing, which the evidence does appear to confirm.

I have never won the National Lottery.

Does that prove anything?

Pretty much what MSP said.

I have never won the National Lottery.
Does that prove anything?

I think the odds of a black person in a Merc being stopped by the police are much less than 14 million to 1.

A police officer has been able to stop any car without reason since at least the road traffic act 1988, it may have even been possible before that under another legislation. It’s very difficult to see any details of the driver from behind while driving

These cars stopped for no reason: what is your explanation for the fact that the drivers are black far more often than would be expected by random chance?

You can be stopped by the police to check that your vehicle is being driven with the correct licence, valid insurance ect. This is a new thing and certainly not an erosion of your civil liberties.

It might not be new, but it certainly is an erosion of your civil liberties - I don't expect police in a democracy to be stopping people just in case their paperwork is incorrect. Stop them if the car's weaving all over the road, they've got a missing headlight, you're next to them at the lights and notice a bald tyre...

I think the odds of a black person in a Merc being stopped by the police are much less than 14 million to 1.

God only knows how Lewis Hamilton gets away with it.

My Sister drives my Mum to York about twice a year(Mum loves the little narrow streets and shopping, drives down from Glasgow 200+ miles.
They've yet to be stopped by the police for having their Glasgow registered car driving around York..

Also, a car registered from outside of the local area driving around at night is always worth a quick stop check, that’s a completely normal thing for a police officer to do.

As part of my work, I used to travel to Buckinghamshire every week from Yorkshire and during the week I'd be everywhere from Worcester to Salford, to Mid Wales and East Anglia. Over the decades I've done this sort of work I must have followed, or been followed by cops hundreds of times. Not one of them has ever stopped me as I was "from outside the local area"  The fact that loads of my friends who also do this work and haven't been stopped for being "Not from 'round here", and the fact that Regional and travelling area sales is a thing, means that I think this sort of activity isn't "normal"

Anecdote: The only real dickhead I've ever met on a mountain bike holiday recently was a cop, he was, an argumentative, reactionary, blinkered moron, who expressed some pretty vile views after drinking too much one evening

cops need a reason to stop a car. They cannot do it at random. the reason does not have to be much tho

The reason can be to check the driver has a license and is insured. Which isn’t much, and covers every car.

Stop being some bloody naive as to make such rubbish excuses for them ^^, its the height of ignorance!

C'mon ajaj, enlighten us with some of your real world experience.

Kryton's just offered us up some of his non-real world experience, as have quite a few others, including me on recent threads. I wonder how you would explain away David Lammys' non-real world experience?

You do know that this is a forum inhabited by mainly middle aged men don't you, (I said mainly wheelsonfire, point duly taken) I say that because I find myself trying to guess your age? I'm thinking your about 14 years old or so. Am I right? Perhaps we should all play a game of 'let's guess ajaj's age'. Thing is you'd have to provide us with a photograph in order for us to judge who was the winner, and I don't think you have the guts to put a face to the words you type as you sit there tapping out your secret diary of a racist troll, ajaj, aged 13 and three quarters.

A bit of advice for you young man, which can take or leave at your discretion. When it comes to sensitive topics like, I duuno, race, rape, murder and such like, Imagine yourself in an actual room with fellow forum posters. (You know, an actual 'real world' room with actual 'real world' people in it.) Then ask yourself 'would I say the same things in that real world situation that Im happy to type away in my safe space of relative anonymity.?

I think a lot of the issue may well be confirmation bias on both sides. Black youth gets pulled too often thus get stroppy, Cops get faced with stroppy youth every time they pull a black guy. Thus it builds

There is no doubt at all from the stats tho that especially in london black folk get pulled much more often even tho the % of arrests is less than it is for white youth

I really do not believe its conscious bias in the main. Its unconscious in that multiple small effects build up to the bias

I’ve never been stopped whilst driving and I look like a right dodgy bastard. I can imagine being repeatedly stopped with no justification other than your skin tone would get very tiresome though. Must make people think twice or get nervous before driving in certain areas or at certain times and that is, quite frankly, rubbish.

Kryton’s just offered us up some of his non-real world experience

I'm sorry but my wife being pulled over 3 times more frequently than me driving the same car in the same areas was very real, as is the fact she's Black.  Whats more, I usually travel 3 x her mileage.

You can enjoy your head in the sand all you want.

I also find the "out of town" plates explanation a bit lacking.

I live in Glasgow and the last 3 cars I have owned were variously registered in Northampton, Stockton and Preston and I've never been pulled while driving at night.

The one time I was stopped was for speeding and the car at the time had "local" plates.

 really do not believe its conscious bias in the main

Absolutely, I would imagine there's heaps of training/awareness going on in most Police forces and most cops probably strain every sinew to try to make sure they aren't being racist. It's why the McPherson report labelled the Met as "Institutionally racist" and didn't highlight individuals. The Police, as a body, act in a way that disadvantages some people based on their skin colour.

Stop being some bloody naive as to make such rubbish excuses for them ^^, its the height of ignorance!

Was that to me?

If so, I’m simply replying to TJ as to where the power to stop any vehicle originates from. Nothing more.

If not, don’t mind me.

Kryton,

Not sure if you misread my post, I was trying to be ironic by questioning ajaj's idea of real world experience with the real world experience that you, I and others offer up. I have had similar real world experiences to you with regards my partner and many friends, ajaj was implying that our experiences were not of the real world and therefore invalid.

I was just calling him out, not you.

"God only knows how Lewis Hamilton gets away with it."

They can't catch him.