The driver in this case was white and he got stopped.
Source please.
The driver in this case was white
Not according to Dawn Butler.
Source please.
Fair question but I'm afraid I can't provide one, so Hitchen's law applies. (I've viewed a few clips, the phone pans round and you can see the driver - his face is pixeled out but appears white to me.)
Not according to Dawn Butler.
I've just googled and I can't find anywhere where she claims the driver was black.
Sir Steve House has been quoted and paraphrased: "He also condemned abuse directed towards Ms Butler, including conspiracy theories suggesting the driver of the car was white, after the footage was shared."
If BLM = Labour, I think we lose some of that, I think it will be soaked up and diluted and that translated into activism will mean that BLM becomes another placard to carry at Labour marches rather than a separate thing.
The suggestion/claim in this article is that the BAME members are not happy with Starmer.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/aug/13/hierarchy-of-racism-fears-threaten-starmers-hopes-of-labour-unity
Hmm... looking into this led me to reading an article on Spiked. I knew they'd ramped things up, but it's full on alt-right extremism now, isn't it. The legacy of Living Marxism really is just controversy stirring for hard cash (and perhaps a place in the house of lords). I forget that we're as now as bad as the USA. Spiked, Academy of Ideas etc are all just Info Wars style grifting... rewarded by political patronage. To think they once claimed to be Marxists, just for the grift as well. Depressing.
So the copper put in one digit on the number plate wrong and somehow miraculously that number came back to the same make, model and colour car but from Yorkshire. Or did the copper bury the lead?
I appreciate that she is involved because this happened to her and therefore her interest is personal as well as political, but sometimes personal is not the same as important
So, are you saying that Ms Butler's interest is not important? Or her involvement is not important? So the involvement of a black woman who has been stopped with no good reason multiple times, being in a car driven by a friend who has been stopped many more times than herself, is not important?
I would say the involvement of a rather high-profile black woman is pretty important.
As ever, it's always good to see the racists out themselves on these threads!
Fairly depressing to think that these types of people have such power over us though ☹️
I am suggesting that the involvement of Dawn Butler may continue to define BLM as a party political issue rather than something which should be bigger than party politics.
Of course it's important.
Of course it's personal.
Elsewhere on the web her political status is being used to discredit her and by extension, the story.
I don't know if she can be separated from her political status in this instance, but I don't want this to be a Labour thing because it should be a people thing.
I don't know how this can be avoided, I don't know if it should be...
Rather than throwing mud at those who serve let's step back
What is currently happening isn't working for the communities and is separating the police from them which means it is not working for them either.
Policing of these communities in London and other inner cities needs to be tested against the Peel principles. Policing by consent needs the community to support it
The heavy lifting isn't just for the police, communities need to engage. It's important that the community realise that there are people who act criminally, who are very dangerous, and that need to be put through the criminal justice system. The flip side is that policing needs to engage carefully and understand what works and what doesn't, it may not be captured on the spreadsheet.
It will take a lot of money, leadership, time and effort. Quite a lot is probably done now or in the past, what is needed is to step that up into much larger effort to reset relationships and change behaviours
I hope the serving officers on here stay safe whilst keeping us safe. I hope they think about what is happening and try to do their bit to make things better. Dealing with the nasty end of society can lead to a fatigue, we need to recognise that sometimes that requires a reset.
The heavy lifting isn’t just for the police, communities need to engage.
On the subject of racism in the police, this looks awfully close to victim blaming.
People would have a lot more sympathy for the police if we didn't continually see this 'protect your own' mentality where people make crap excuses for stuff that shouldn't be happening.
The fact is that black people are disproportionately stopped and searched, more likely to get charged for drug offences, receive longer sentences for the same crimes etc. We need some honesty about that as a starting point.
By extension, the anti-racism work shouldn't be left to the BAME communities.
Having read the Peel principles, it's pretty hard not to see that there have been many instances where they have certainly not been upheld.
For examle, no.6:
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;">To use physical force only when the exercise of persuasion, advice and warning is found to be insufficient to obtain public co-operation to an extent necessary to secure observance of law or to restore order, and to use only the minimum degree of physical force which is necessary on any particular occasion for achieving a police objective.</span>
The video of Wretcn 32's 61 year old father getting tasered with pretty much no warning. Let alone persuasion or advice. Just screaming orders. Tasering a race relations group leader in the face, a 63 year old, does not really meet the minimum degree of physical force, does it?
And no.2;
To recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect.
When instances like Ms Butler's occur so often, how can the community that is disproportionately affected by policing strategies give their approval?
Hearing officers say that it is normal to pull people for almost no reason does not make me more respectful of the police. The pretty much constant, instant, defending of officers actions in many of these situations, is also something that diminishes trust. It gives the impression of closing rank. The use of software to determine the criminal speciality of particular ethnicities, doesn't really help, either.
If you don't want to be seen to be racist, don't do racist things. And if you want to earn the trust and respect of communities, don't target them and wonder why that trust and respect don't exist.
It will take a lot of money, leadership, time and effort.
Exactly. Shame we've had 10 years of cutting police and local authority budgets. That needs to be reversed - I know this isn't a great time to do so what with Covid and all but unless we want prisons to be a major part of our economy like the USA we need to act.
Political disclosure: voted Conservative until 1997, voted Lib Dem since.
So the copper put in one digit on the number plate wrong
So how long can you drive round that there London without passing an NPR installation?
The system was obviously not putting out an alert if the registration insurance MOT(?) were all valid so was the wrong registration input before or after the stop?
One of the reasons we/I don't have any trust in the police is because of their inclination to make their actions fit the circumstances and often with the collusion of msm and the Sun.
I am rather enjoying seeing their current 'its not fair poor us' situation. Had it been another unarmed shooting this would all have been cleared up and moved on 'nothing to see here' but it was low key and below the radar and suddenly it is mainstream.
I understand that the Police have been beleaguered for a decade now, being stripped of resources, being asked to fullfil roles that should be the responsibillity of social services and other agencies and at constant odds with the Conservative government. I can see that they must feel they are in a constant state of crisis management.
However, in having to juggle all this they have dropped a ball. Whatever progress the Police feel they have made with regards race over the years, they now have to recognise that that progress has stopped. Gone backwards even.
The Police now look as out of touch as they did in the early 80's, although this time they don't have the unswerving support of the Government that they had under Thatcher. Thatcher made a deal with the Police, she politicised them with regards the miners strike etc and supported them publicly and financially but in return she demanded they conformed to due process, she introduced the recording of all interviews, thus putting an end to 'verbals', where in court a police officers word would be taken as gospel, as hard evidence. Thatcher's insistence on recorded evidence was probably the single most effective meaaure ever taken in tackling Police corruption.
This time Police are on their own, they don't have proper funding or even moral support (save the odd platitude) from the Government and they're losing the support of ever wider sections of the public with every bit of their public messaging. Part of the reason the Police are embarrassing themselves in the media by throwing out a smorgasbord of excuses and whataboutery is because the Gov't isn't even covering for them. They're being thrown to the wolves like poor little lambs, all this conflict is a great distraction and cover for the Goverments other nefarious actions.
So a reset is definitely needed but God knows where it's going to come from.
crikey
MemberI am suggesting that the involvement of Dawn Butler may continue to define BLM as a party political issue rather than something which should be bigger than party politics.
I sort of almost said this earlier but didn't actually manage to get to the conclusion, so...
The only thing that can stop anti-racism being a party political thing, is to have the racist parties stop being racist, not to have the anti-racist parties worry about being anti-racist. I get where you're coming from but this isn't a thing to handwring over, or be moderate about, this is a line to draw.
"The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal..."
The other thing is, it's not a Black Lives Matter thing at all. It's a common or garden racism thing, same as has been happening for generations before anyone ever said "But surely all lives matter?"
Yes.
I'm struggling to properly articulate what I mean, partly because the debate especially here doesn't lend itself towards ...the free-er explanation of things without automatically being accused of racism.
I think I'm thinking along the lines of BLM/antiracism having to become a bit like drunk driving or seatbelts or some other social thing; it needs to become part of us, part of our psyche, an unacceptable thing in general terms rather than in party political terms.
If it gets aligned with party politics then it becomes easy to ignore by that part of the population who don't align with the party politics that it becomes aligned with...
I think it becomes easy to 'protest' for this week, or this month. It's not easy to carry that forward for a year or a couple of years or forever, Amen.
There are lessons to be learned from Brexit, from the current Tory party, from Dominic Cummings et al; I'm sure that giving Rupert Murdoch a million pounds in return for a BLM or antiracist campaign would do more than any number of earnest speeches or heartfelt protests, but does the end justify those means?
The battleground of protest and social change has moved and I think that the 'game' needs to move accordingly. Protest in itself is all well and good, but we need to move beyond placards and committees and strident and heartfelt comments on forums...
Fair question but I’m afraid I can’t provide one, so Hitchen’s law applies. (I’ve viewed a few clips, the phone pans round and you can see the driver – his face is pixeled out but appears white to me.)
Not according to the police themselves.
On the subject of racism in the police, this looks awfully close to victim blaming.
Really?
Getting communities to work with the police to reset their relationship from both sides is victim blaming.
To police by consent successfully with the emphasis on one side to do all the work is a recipe for failure, the police alone will be unable to see the changes required. At the same time more resources are needed, more political support to change, more BAME people need to join the police, either as specials or for their career etc.
If the issue is tackled on multiple fronts and investment and leadership follows change will happen.
With regards the politicisation of BLM, the Tories own this from Windrush to Brexit. Add to that Boris doing his best Enoch Powell impersonation by tweeting about Winston Churchill 10 times on the day of the London march. He was trying to stir it up as much as he possibly could.
Labour has in general been pretty clueless about how to respond. In many ways Starmer mimics Corbyn in that it seems that he's got to wait for party conference or a round of committee meetings to have a debate about what official Labour 'Policy' should be. As I mentioned on another thread, events seem to pass Starmer by. Just respond as a human being FFS.
BLM as a movement is much too agile for Starmer and the Labour hierarchies. By the time the party finds a 'position on the issue the debate will have progressed beyond whatever statement comes out from the leadership.
I'm ok with that, not expecting the Labour Party to deliver for BLM. Changes will come from the cultural sector and the business sector, they always have. The most effective strategy that BLM can employ is to make racism bad for business. The biggest changes we've seen so far have been related to sport, where business and culture collide. Sport has been pushed towards a zero tolerance approach and has had to respond. To not do so would be bad for business.
We've seen a lot of businesses proclaim their support for BLM and even if you think they're being cynical or disingenuous their motive is clear, they want to protect their business and they recognise that racism is bad for their business.
To police by consent successfully with the emphasis on one side to do all the work is a recipe for failure, the police alone will be unable to see the changes required
So the police can't help being racist because their victims aren't holding their hands. Riiight.
Doesn't help when head of Met doesn't really get it.
The Met apparently "doesn't tolerate racists" - actions greater than words needed on that one.
It's still in the mode of assuming that people have to be card-carrying white supremacists to act in prejudiced ways or be part of a system that provably discriminates against particular groups.
I have been guilty in the past of thinking that unless you are 'a racist' there's no problem, but I'd hope a senior policeman would realise how unhelpful this is by now.
Big-n-daft.
Not sure what the communities respomsiblity is in all this. Why should they 'work with Police?'
I spent 10 years promoting Drum'n bas / jungle nights in a metropolitan city and as much I'd like to have had the help of the police in creating a safe environment for clubbers, engaging with the Police on any level would have been an absolute no, no.
No, no, no.
No, no, no ,no, no.
Inkster is now on the wanted list for crimes against guitar based rock
Inkster, what night? Suspect I've been to a few of them. Thread derailment, sorry.
crikey
MemberI think I’m thinking along the lines of BLM/antiracism having to become a bit like drunk driving or seatbelts or some other social thing; it needs to become part of us, part of our psyche, an unacceptable thing in general terms rather than in party political terms.
Yup. And an understanding that defending the status quo or resisting attempts to change it, when the status quo is racist, or denying that racism, is itself racist.
The Peel Principles have been cited a couple of times already so here’s another one that may explain Big N Daft’s comments:
To maintain at all times a relationship with the public that gives reality to the historic tradition that the police are the public and that the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.
I actually love that.
That said, the Peel Principles, which are in my opinion more relevant today than ever before, have been superseded a few times over but more recently with the Policing Code of Ethics - another example of the Police Service/Home Office/College of Policing reinventing the wheel with vapid words and little guidance.
I am a Police Officer and I’m approaching the last few years of my service. It truly saddens me to read some of the comments on here when I personally joined to make a difference and have strived throughout my career to help those in need, no matter what. I work in a specialist role that virtually solely works in high stress and violent confrontational situations and I’ve rarely had complaints from members of the public, and certainly never have I been accused of racism.
When I joined the job the current thinking was that Police Officers should reflect society, particularly in their gender, ethnic and socio-economic backgrounds. In other words the percentages of men, women, Asian, African Caribbean etc. should ideally reflect the society which they Police. The Police service could not attract the right people and so the problems that existed years before still exist today.
That said, although Police Officers and their behaviour should be the example to which the public can look and follow, in my experience we’ve lost that role some years ago (which is why policing by consent is becoming a distant memory) and now there is little difference in the behaviour of the rank and file and the public. In that way, it could be suggested that the Police do indeed now reflect the society the Police. Is it right? Not in my opinion, but here we are.
The whole service DOES need a shake up but budget cuts etc. do not really solve a problem. Rather, they merely add to the problem as senior officers and managers rush around In blind panic constantly changing every policy and procedure, providing little guidance other than an e-learning package then punishing officers with a public flogging for making an error in judgement, misunderstanding a policy or being plain stupid.
What is needed is the acknowledgment that the world has changed and so have the challenges the Police face. With that in mind, the whole structure of the Police has remained in the past. Most current senior officers started as mere PCs and pass a few multi choice exams and an interview and quickly find themselves in charge of multi-million pound budgets. This cannot be right..!
Anyway, to return on topic, all I would say is that in my experience of being told I’m a racist virtually every day of my service, I see little evidence of racism in my day to day life. I know people will say “of course you’d say that, you’re closing ranks or it’s your unconscious bias informing your view”. Well all I would say is that I know I can’t change your opinion but please be aware that the reporting of the bad experiences always outstrips the reporting of the good experiences, and not all of us, or even a majority, are racist. It does exist, it shouldn’t but it does. This is our reality and it needs to change. What we all need to realise is that cops are human and make just as many mistakes as the next human.
The thing is that your and your colleagues ‘mistakes’ have a
large effect on people’s lives and saying that bad experiences always outstrips the reporting of the good experiences is just victim blaming.
What we all need to realise is that cops are human and make just as many mistakes as the next human.
But the racist 'mistakes' have a lot more impact than those not in the police i.e. a racist police officer and their actions will have a much bigger impact in society than my racist grandmother.
How well these 'mistakes' are handled is key and is what is lacking.
Have put 'mistakes' because I don't agree that actions based on racism can be classed as mistakes and by sugggesting they are means you are not really accepting the problem.
Lots of keyboard warriors, lots of condemnation of the Police but very little actual substance, very little actual sensible advice or actual action.
Singletrackworld exists in its own little middle class, high disposable income, nice left wing politics environment whereas the reality of that world that you don't have to visit is rather different...
The thing is that your and your colleagues ‘mistakes’ have a
large effect on people’s lives and saying that bad experiences always outstrips the reporting of the good experiences is just victim blaming.
Yes they do but I think you misunderstand what I’m saying as victim blaming wasn’t implied or intended in anything I’ve written. I said the reporting of bad experiences outstrips the reporting of good experiences. The message is that although racism no doubt exists it is far from my experience that it is as widespread as what is implied on social media and that the majority of Police Officers (again, only in my personal experience) are generally disgusted by it and endeavour to get rid of it. The Police is far from perfect but is not quite how it’s being currently being portrayed. Again, in my experience.
Twisted pencil,
Did a lot of nights in 90's and early noughties Manchester. Venues such as Band obnthe Wall, Planet K, Academy, Roadhouse etc. Our events always had 3 or 4 MC's rather than the single hypeman format that was prevalent at the time.
Putting things back on the rails, the reason I mentioned it was that you really had to operate undetected by the Police if you wanted to promote music that had any significant black audience in those days. They'd shut you down on a whim.
I remember one summer, when the Police made a determined attempt to shut down some promoters, (easier in the summer as all the students go home and the city centre is much quieter.) The first I knew of it was when my DJ's and MC's started turning up early. They were avoiding the dragnet as the Police were stopping any black people driving in to town and my guys didn't want to get stopped with a bag of records in their car and be asked 'where are you going? They didn't want to give the game away.
Anyhow, the Police found us in the end, came in a bit mob handed and shut us down. Venue management told me to scarper, they'd cover for me, saying it was an in house promotion and they promised not to do it again, (have black people in the venue that is)
So you concede that mistakes have a large effect on people’s lives then without a hint of contrition try to close down the victim blaming argument.
Until the Police admit there’s a problem with racism in the service there always will be.
Before I get accused of being something I’m not by crikey, both my parents were police officers, I’m working class, generally pro police and I don’t drive an audi
Hmmm. I can't develop any kind of anger until I know what kind of car you actually drive...
Debates on here get so polarised, even though this is generally a softie leftie corner of the internet. I've seen the end results of the kind of stuff the Police have to deal with, I've lived close enough to the kind of places that STWers wouldn't go after dark and been punched for living on the wrong street.
Racism is a big fat complex problem which involves the Police but is not solely their fault, and using them as a whipping boy is going to solve **** all. Until the communities involved, including the Police, start to take some ownership, some responsibility, some actual grown up behaviour with regard to the situation, things will never change. All this 'Ooh no, we can't engage with the Police' stuff is counter productive.
Don't forget; the Police don't have the luxury of deciding not to 'engage'; it's their job.
When the shit hits the fan at your protest, at your house party, at your illegal rave, at your D&B night, at your Hospital, at your night club, at your house who are you going to call?
Dawn Butler?
Singletrackworld exists in its own little middle class, high disposable income, nice left wing politics environment whereas the reality of that world that you don’t have to visit is rather different…
You should've added "virtue signallers" to get a full house.
I was going to mention coffee ****ers too but i forgot!
So you concede that mistakes have a large effect on people’s lives then without a hint of contrition try to close down the victim blaming argument.
Yes I do but please show me exactly where I have tried to close down the victim blaming argument? I actually said that victim blaming was not implied or intended when pointing out what is essentially negativity bias in social media reporting.
Someone has accused me of victim blaming when I simply haven’t done this. Why would I personally show contrition for something I’ve never done and not likely to do? Am I supposed to apologise for all of the faults within the Police Service? I’ve agreed that there are problems and I’ve tried to give a slightly different view on certain matters but I cannot personally be held responsible for the actions or lack of actions of other Officers. I’ve raised my head above the parapet because it truly saddens me to see how normal everyday people who are unlikely to have ever had a negative interaction with the Police are now believing that it is absolute fact that every police officer is racist, that the Police Service as a whole is institutionalised racist and that the only way this can be solved is by the Police and only the Police.
There are a great many Cops on this forum but there is a reason not many are raising their heads right now - they will, as you have just demonstrated, get them lopped off merely by trying to offer or contribute to the debate. No it’s not guilty conscious, no it’s not an admission of guilt, it’s purely down to the fact that whatever they say they will be wrong. I’m merely offering you an alternative narrative that admits that faults exist but to remain grounded and realise that this is not America, the rest of the UK is not the Met, and all officers shouldn’t be judged on the actions of others. We’re all individual human beings who the majority come to work to try to make a difference. And yes, we get it wrong. By saying that it doesn’t suggest victim blaming, it doesn’t deny racism, it doesn’t deny the effect or influence their actions can have it’s a simple fact.
EDIT,
Responded to Crikey but subsequently thought better of it.
Mildred,
One of the reasons the Police are under such intense pressure at the moment is because the Government has abandoned you. The Government has been entirely absent in the BLM debate, save to stir up as much racial tension as they can whilst leaving the Police to deal with the consequences. The Government are hanging the police out to dry, I can also imagine what it must be like if you are a good officer, don't know if you read my post earlier about a friend that joined the police and how I could see in a particular circumstance the difficulties he faced.
One thing that I've learned on this thread is the frequency with which Police stop vehicles with an out of town licence plate, I thought that was a US thing. From a civil liberties perspective I have a problem with that. It's also not hard to see how this practice could be either abused or applied with unconscious bias, thus making the problem worse.
As a nation we are asking ourselves what kind of country we are, or thought we were. I thought we were the sort of country where if you were minding your own business and not doing any harm you should have no reason to have an encounter with the Police. For many people an encounter with the Police can be very distressing and /or humiliating and in some cases can have profound psychological consequences.
If that sounds like I'm asking for a touchy-feely (covid protocols accepted) police force wrapped in cotton wool with a hug a hoodie mentality then you'd be right. All encounters with the Police should start in this manner and only escalate if there is no other appropriate course of action.
There are a great many Cops on this forum but there is a reason not many are raising their heads right now – they will, as you have just demonstrated, get them lopped off merely by trying to offer or contribute to the debate.
Sorry, but I don't buy that as an argument.
If there is a "great many" people having valuable input into the discussion then going "yeah but people might disagree with me" is a lame excuse for not posting. Isn't righting wrongs the police's very raison d'etre? They'll cheerfully stroll into a den full of armed drug dealers but are frightened of a cycling forum?
Every post I've read from a police officer on here - caveat, I haven't read the entire thread - has been variations on denying there's a problem. And there is a problem, which is why 'heads are getting lopped off.' This is the #notallmen defence, one I'm personally guilty of being (rightly) lambasted for previously in other circles.
We're not giving the police as a whole a kicking. We're not casting aspersions about anyone. But as soon as you float a defence of "I know some police officers who aren't racist" then you're part of the problem.
And it's not just the police, it's people. But the thing which elevates this as a 'police' problem over a 'people' problem is that the police are in a unique position of power. Anyone in that role has to be held to a greater degree of responsibility than 'normal' people.
One thing that I’ve learned on this thread is the frequency with which Police stop vehicles with an out of town licence plate
Can't say as that's ever happened to me in 30 years of driving. And I've driven as far North as Inverness and as far South as Carcassonne.
Gotta say though Inkster, I'm loving your posts here and agree wholeheartedly with everything you're saying.
