Where’s the video?
If there is one the video will be personal data and subject to data protection rules. It may also be evidence in the IOPC enquiry. Due process and human rights are more important than your curiosity, although those principles seem to be clinging on by a fragile thread.
Oh and TJ, before you get too carried away, the accusations of racism are made against the health service as well.
The idea that the police can just stop people randomly for absolutely no justifiable reason and demand to know what they’re doing and where they’re going is an appalling erosion on civil liberties and policing by consent.
This should be resisted by all sections of society, not just the BAME ones who are leading the way now.
Oh indeed. Recently some black chap had to make a video to help white folk like me identify the colours black folks skin goes when they are unwell
It was just a simple statement of fact tho about my family members.
Also, a car registered from outside of the local area driving around at night is always worth a quick stop check, that’s a completely normal thing for a police officer to do.
I call bullshit. I have driven all over the country in various (nice) company cars day and night. Rural and urban areas. I have never been stopped. Maybe if i wasn't white this would be different?
I always get stopped at Holyhead (on Saturday) if I’m on my own, by the customs and police, whilst families in mpv’s are rarely pulled over. This irks me as I loose my place in the queue. As soon as they see all the cycling gear the door is closed and I’m sent on my way. I also know that if I’m behind a van with a non English or Irish registration they will also be searched.
I call bullshit
I think that nicely answers the question why nobody with any real world experience responds to these threads.
He has real world experience of not being stopped by the police despite travelling to many different areas, as do many of us who have driven lots of miles as part of our jobs.
I haven't been stopped by the police since about 2007 (second time I've been stopped since I got my licence in '92), car had only been insured that day so suspect it flagged as uninsured when they checked the number. At the time I was doing 22k purely commuting - last couple of years I've been doing 30k a year for work (no longer, I'm glad to say 🙂 ).
In my personal experience very few officers are racist
I believe that few are actively and consciously racist, but there is an insidious problem of unconscious bias that is not being addressed in society, making it structurally racist. The police are not alone in it but as noted earlier, their actions have significant repercussions.
I think that nicely answers the question why nobody with any real world experience responds to these threads.
Various professional roles have meant working in inner city areas around Manchester and Liverpool, hazardous waste treatment facilities (disposal of drugs etc.), educational facilities for vulnerable young people. I could arrive at my destination at pretty much any time of day or night. I have traveled the motorway networks at all times of day or night. If the police wanted to stop me for a "quick stop check", I have given them more than ample opportunity. Real world enough?
I have never won the National Lottery.
Does that prove anything?
The idea that the police can just stop people randomly for absolutely no justifiable reason and demand to know what they’re doing and where they’re going is an appalling erosion on civil liberties and policing by consent
Driving is not a divine right. You can be stopped by the police to check that your vehicle is being driven with the correct licence, valid insurance ect. This is a new thing and certainly not an erosion of your civil liberties.
Real world experience? We have a Kuga & and a 3 series with blacked out rear windows. I've never been pulled over in my life, I'm 48. My wife however has been pulled over 3 times in the last 24 months.
She's Black.
A police officer has been able to stop any car without reason since at least the road traffic act 1988, it may have even been possible before that under another legislation. It's very difficult to see any details of the driver from behind while driving
"It’s very difficult to see any details of the driver from behind while driving"
Yes it probably is but you are making the assumption that the police car was behind the "suspect" vehicle at all times and did not see the occupants at any point.
I have never won the National Lottery.
Does that prove anything?
That their is no racial bias in random numbers being chosen by a machine, which has no relevance to racial bias in policing, which the evidence does appear to confirm.
I have never won the National Lottery.
Does that prove anything?
Pretty much what MSP said.
I have never won the National Lottery.
Does that prove anything?
I think the odds of a black person in a Merc being stopped by the police are much less than 14 million to 1.
A police officer has been able to stop any car without reason since at least the road traffic act 1988, it may have even been possible before that under another legislation. It’s very difficult to see any details of the driver from behind while driving
These cars stopped for no reason: what is your explanation for the fact that the drivers are black far more often than would be expected by random chance?
You can be stopped by the police to check that your vehicle is being driven with the correct licence, valid insurance ect. This is a new thing and certainly not an erosion of your civil liberties.
It might not be new, but it certainly is an erosion of your civil liberties - I don't expect police in a democracy to be stopping people just in case their paperwork is incorrect. Stop them if the car's weaving all over the road, they've got a missing headlight, you're next to them at the lights and notice a bald tyre...
I think the odds of a black person in a Merc being stopped by the police are much less than 14 million to 1.
God only knows how Lewis Hamilton gets away with it.
My Sister drives my Mum to York about twice a year(Mum loves the little narrow streets and shopping, drives down from Glasgow 200+ miles.
They've yet to be stopped by the police for having their Glasgow registered car driving around York..
Also, a car registered from outside of the local area driving around at night is always worth a quick stop check, that’s a completely normal thing for a police officer to do.
As part of my work, I used to travel to Buckinghamshire every week from Yorkshire and during the week I'd be everywhere from Worcester to Salford, to Mid Wales and East Anglia. Over the decades I've done this sort of work I must have followed, or been followed by cops hundreds of times. Not one of them has ever stopped me as I was "from outside the local area" The fact that loads of my friends who also do this work and haven't been stopped for being "Not from 'round here", and the fact that Regional and travelling area sales is a thing, means that I think this sort of activity isn't "normal"
Anecdote: The only real dickhead I've ever met on a mountain bike holiday recently was a cop, he was, an argumentative, reactionary, blinkered moron, who expressed some pretty vile views after drinking too much one evening
cops need a reason to stop a car. They cannot do it at random. the reason does not have to be much tho
The reason can be to check the driver has a license and is insured. Which isn’t much, and covers every car.
Stop being some bloody naive as to make such rubbish excuses for them ^^, its the height of ignorance!
C'mon ajaj, enlighten us with some of your real world experience.
Kryton's just offered us up some of his non-real world experience, as have quite a few others, including me on recent threads. I wonder how you would explain away David Lammys' non-real world experience?
You do know that this is a forum inhabited by mainly middle aged men don't you, (I said mainly wheelsonfire, point duly taken) I say that because I find myself trying to guess your age? I'm thinking your about 14 years old or so. Am I right? Perhaps we should all play a game of 'let's guess ajaj's age'. Thing is you'd have to provide us with a photograph in order for us to judge who was the winner, and I don't think you have the guts to put a face to the words you type as you sit there tapping out your secret diary of a racist troll, ajaj, aged 13 and three quarters.
A bit of advice for you young man, which can take or leave at your discretion. When it comes to sensitive topics like, I duuno, race, rape, murder and such like, Imagine yourself in an actual room with fellow forum posters. (You know, an actual 'real world' room with actual 'real world' people in it.) Then ask yourself 'would I say the same things in that real world situation that Im happy to type away in my safe space of relative anonymity.?
I think a lot of the issue may well be confirmation bias on both sides. Black youth gets pulled too often thus get stroppy, Cops get faced with stroppy youth every time they pull a black guy. Thus it builds
There is no doubt at all from the stats tho that especially in london black folk get pulled much more often even tho the % of arrests is less than it is for white youth
I really do not believe its conscious bias in the main. Its unconscious in that multiple small effects build up to the bias
I’ve never been stopped whilst driving and I look like a right dodgy bastard. I can imagine being repeatedly stopped with no justification other than your skin tone would get very tiresome though. Must make people think twice or get nervous before driving in certain areas or at certain times and that is, quite frankly, rubbish.
Kryton’s just offered us up some of his non-real world experience
I'm sorry but my wife being pulled over 3 times more frequently than me driving the same car in the same areas was very real, as is the fact she's Black. Whats more, I usually travel 3 x her mileage.
You can enjoy your head in the sand all you want.
I also find the "out of town" plates explanation a bit lacking.
I live in Glasgow and the last 3 cars I have owned were variously registered in Northampton, Stockton and Preston and I've never been pulled while driving at night.
The one time I was stopped was for speeding and the car at the time had "local" plates.
really do not believe its conscious bias in the main
Absolutely, I would imagine there's heaps of training/awareness going on in most Police forces and most cops probably strain every sinew to try to make sure they aren't being racist. It's why the McPherson report labelled the Met as "Institutionally racist" and didn't highlight individuals. The Police, as a body, act in a way that disadvantages some people based on their skin colour.
Stop being some bloody naive as to make such rubbish excuses for them ^^, its the height of ignorance!
Was that to me?
If so, I’m simply replying to TJ as to where the power to stop any vehicle originates from. Nothing more.
If not, don’t mind me.
Kryton,
Not sure if you misread my post, I was trying to be ironic by questioning ajaj's idea of real world experience with the real world experience that you, I and others offer up. I have had similar real world experiences to you with regards my partner and many friends, ajaj was implying that our experiences were not of the real world and therefore invalid.
I was just calling him out, not you.
"God only knows how Lewis Hamilton gets away with it."
They can't catch him.
OK, sorry if I misunderstood.
Kryton,
No worries, I guess you glanced at my post and thought WTF? I feel the same was as you do, not just generally but specifically right now. More cash had the temmerity to ask me if I was angry, as if there's something wrong with being angry about racism. He also accused me of being preachy. Which made me more angry.
I know you've shared some personal information this last couple of months, things, that like me and some others on here, you haven't said before. I think that's kind of testament to the kind of silencing of debate and self censoring that has gone on for ages.
There's a perception out there that black people and those advocating for them are always moaning and blowing things out of proportion when you and I know the opposite is often the case. Our partners tell us only a fraction of what they experience and would be quite right to complain about even though we might have been with them for decades.
Apart from those instances where I have been present to witness for myself, when black friends have had negative encounters with the police they dont usually tell me. I often get to hear about these things from a mutual friend, who themselves may have had adverse experiences but haven't conveyed them to me.
This vicarious roundabout of conversation suggests to me that is a topic that is suppressed and people have been hesitant or scared to raise their voices.
Anyhow, back to the Important queestion. How old do you think ajaj is?
Anyone debating "ARE black folk more likely to get stopped by the police" needs a slap and some education
The debate should be "WHY are black folk more likely to be stopped by the police and what can be done about it"
How old do you think ajaj is?
We have a chance at a decent debate here, let's not derail things. I'm guessing ajaj is either uninformed or trolling. Hoping that it's the former as maybe he can learn from folk such as yourse;f and Kryton who have a deeper understanding.
The debate should be “WHY are black folk more likely to be stopped by the police and what can be done about it”
If this could take place with everyone free to air their thoughts, we may finally move forward.
#edited due to a pompous sounding response.
I think the odds of a black person in a Merc being stopped by the police are much less than 14 million to 1.
But still they’re BAME.
Sorry.
The car before my current one was a Cardiff registered car brand new one I got. In the 3 years and almost 50k I owned it for I was stopped exactly nil times.
With the rise in lease vehicles, I'd say it's highly likely most cars are "not from round here". My previous car was registered in Nottingham and I wasn't stopped at all in 3 yrs & 90k miles in Kent.
What shows up their duplicity is not the "input wrong number" but why they felt the need to input it in the first place. I wonder if anyone convicted on the strength of this particular officer's evidence can ask for a retrial as they can't read a number plate/record data accurately?
While this is not really core to the topic being discussed, there seem to be a lot of people saying that they have owned cars not registered where they live, but they have never been stopped.
Are we talking about the address on the V5, or the 2 letter designation on the number plate?
I would have thought when a set of plates were put through a system, the Police are not looking to see if the number plate designation is local to that area; but rather the V5 details that come back are local to that area?
Although having never owned a lease car - FB-ATB does the v5 for your car show your name address, or that of 'lease company'?
Probably number plate letters.
RX is near Reading but our campervan lives with us in Yorkshire
Stumpy - the lease company as they hold the V5
From the report I head yesterday on Dawn Butler they checked the address after they stopped but the excuse was the car was out of the area.
