Brexit not delivering a single thing promised has the brexiteers very scared
Eg
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jan/17/britishvolt-expected-enter-administration-tuesday
It's almost as though SKS isn't as daft as some think or would like him to be.
BritishVolt is yet another example of short sighted Britian not committing to something properly, and just dabbling. Meanwhile the Swedes have it sorted and are in production with ties to several big brands.
(Like nuclear power, the water network, manufacturing in general, health care, etc etc).
Britain is going the same half arsed not really interested route into hydrogen based power / exonomy. We're getting left behind AGAIN.
End aggressive divergence, begin the slow careful rebuilding with the EU/EEA, if we can regain trust enough to get them to put the effort in with us. Most of the country will have landed there by the time the election comes. The “rejoin now” fantasists and “more harder Brexit is the answer” denialists will be on the fringes. It’s not that Labour are being smart about public opinion, it’s that they’ve accepted the reality of where the UK is now, and that penny will drop soon for most people. The journey now is a long one… the wasted years that even Cameron’s government understood and warned us all about with their pre-referendum leaflet drop. Effectively being in the SM/CU will come, but it’s a long way off. And the more we let the Tories carry out their plans, the more there will be to do… and remember we’ll need cooperation from those the Tories are actively pushing away in “our name”.
On battery production and the like: USA is using the transition to green energy to invest in their manufacturing base… as are other European countries… and the EU itself are catching up… the UK will HAVE to do the same. Labour’s plans in this area will just been seen as accepting the norm by the time they get a chance to start implementing them.
It’s almost as though SKS isn’t as daft as some think or would like him to be.
How's that then? SKS becomes a Brexit apologist and rules out CU/SM just as the majority of the voting public wake up to the fact that there is no upside to Brexit and that closer ties with the EU would be a good thing, even rejoining. He's a lot dafter than I initially took him for.
Britishvolt was a scheme to extract government funding. Their only asset is planning permission to build a factory. They haven’t built a battery yet. Calling them a battery maker is disingenuous.
CU/SM can’t come soon enough. When the Torygraph stats to call for it then there is no other pathway. The narrative will be how the politicians blew the golden Brexit opportunity they had for dogmatic reasons bowing to a minority in a disgraced excuse for a Tory party.
As the government, civil service, businesses and workers all have so much time on their hands... nothing to do... nothing else to deal with... it's time to cause some fresh aimless benefit free chaos and divergence...
Parliamentary Bills : Retained EU Law (Revocation and Reform) Bill
FT : What is the UK’s Retained EU Law Bill and why is it so controversial?
Back in the House of Commons today.
Get ready for the waving away of concerns about Northern Ireland, democratic oversight, environmental protection, workers rights...
It’s not public opinion that counts, sadly. It’s the opinion of the swing voters in marginals.
Which swing seats are we talking about here?
The problem with the swing seats mantra is seats change
Especially when you spend all your time just chasing those swing seats so your previously core voters recognise you dont care about them and go elsewhere.
Its a good trick but relies on people not getting disillusioned and looking for an alternative.
However bad.
SKS becomes a Brexit apologist and rules out CU/SM
You know he's not going to be in power forever, right? He's not ruling out the Labour party ever doing it....
Spain will have something to say about that. They desperately don’t want Scotland to join the EU as an independent country for obvious reasons.
Mate, if you're still believing this bollox, I've a bridge to sell.
Britishvolt was a scheme to extract government funding. Their only asset is planning permission to build a factory. They haven’t built a battery yet. Calling them a battery maker is disingenuous.
100% agree and it was obvious from the minute they came on the scene - basically a foreign 'entrepreneur' who saw a Govt that liked headlines and that he reckoned would finance him. How much of our money did he actually get?
Britishvolt was a scheme to extract government funding. Their only asset is planning permission to build a factory. They haven’t built a battery yet. Calling them a battery maker is disingenuous.
This. I live in the area and all they have is a big brown field, 100s of people doing nothing as far as anyone could tell and a bag of magic beans which they were definitely going to plant to make a magic battery factory as soon as the gov' coughed up £30m to buy the spade they needed.
So alot like brexit in many ways.
Probably less than the Welsh Tidal barrage.
Putting this here as it was part of the debate on Britishvolt… a rare chance to cheer for a Tory… and one in government at that!
https://twitter.com/haggis_uk/status/1615699681195233282?s=21
Britishvolt was a scheme to extract government funding. Their only asset is planning permission to build a factory. They haven’t built a battery yet. Calling them a battery maker is disingenuous.
It all sounds very....
It all sounds very….
To be fair, he did build probably the most iconic car ever made!
...As opposed to iconic batteries which have never materialized. BritishVolt secured £100mn of funding from a government looking for positive headlines post Brexit. Their aim was to build a £3800mn factory, so that gives you some idea of the snake oil they were peddling for investment. The FT comments section has been withering.
Seemed an obvious scam/speculation. Think I read that the govt says no public money was handed over as it was contingent on other funding being found.
It just looks like the classic pass the parcel, a bit like what happened at Rover, come in with an idea, get government funding, then other funding comes in from that, use some of the funding to look serious, then make sure you get out with a sackful of money via payments, shell games, etc and leave it to fail under someone else's term.
The main benefit here is the government department were a bit smarter than usual, and that there are potentially others looking at growing this idea.
tjagain
Full Memberits wrecked the scottish tourism industry that used to rely on young europeans on gap years in the main as seasonal workers
I was in the lake district when the vote happened... Listening to an english bar manager crowing about it, and apparently not realising all her staff were eu workers, was like that bit at the start of Casualty where you see the bus full of singing nuns driving towards the truck full of acid and metal spikes.
TBF I think cheap holidays and flights abroad, with a significantly higher chance of good weather wrecked the UK holiday industry a long time before brexit. Writing as someone who grew up in a former Victorian seaside resort. It was only ever on it's arse or a 'bit' better.
Scotland made a lot of money off tourism. the problem is now that many tourism business cannot get seasonal staff any more. Kitchens close weekdays, bars closing early or only part time hours, etc etc Tourism was booming up here. Its even caused issues in Edinburgh. In the highlands its worse.
its obvious how much damage this has caused.
TBF I think cheap holidays and flights abroad, with a significantly higher chance of good weather wrecked the UK holiday industry a long time before brexit.
I think that happened in the 80s and 90s, however my experience of holidaying here suggests that things started to get better from the 2000s on. Certainly in Wales money has been invested in tourist facilities - nice restaurants, cafes, hotels, pubs, glamping sites etc. Places that were scruffy functional rural towns are now quite nice places to spend time and money. That's what Brexit has affected.
+1 molgrips.
The Britain we returned to in 2013 felt very different from the one we left in 2001. But 10 years of Tory and it’s all gone to shit.
Does everything always go to shit under Tories? Has there ever been a Tory govt that made the country a better place overall?
No
the tories exist for one reason only - to concentrate power and wealth i the hands of the already powerful and wealthy
I'l qualify that a little in that the "one nation" tories felt they had a paternalistic duty to look after the poor but still kept the power while throwing a few crumbs down for the poor.
A little more fairly - I think that Tories generally believe that a freer world is better, that we should be allowed to do as we please, and build businesses as we please without being forced to hand money over to a government; that we shouldn't make excuses for mediocrity and you should be responsible for your own success or failure. Which sounds nice, but 5 minutes of intelligent thought should reveal that the human cost of such an ideal is utterly tragic. And 30 years of Tory rule proves it.
I have a decent and kind sister in law who is conservative and believes in that ideal, but she doesn't understand and cannot be told that life simply doesn't work that way.
Got to agree with molgrips (and others). The idea that if everyone works equally hard they will get an equally good outcome just ignores all the evidence, but feels good somehow. I think that is the message that people who really understand that they can misuse it feed to everyone else so they can keep abusing
I don't accept that. Thats the lie they sell and it cons some folk but even if it were true the effect? To concentrate power and wealth in the hands of the powerful and wealthy.
I'm sure a lot of them genuinely believe their dogma, but it has all the trappings of a cult impervious from reason. After a decade of failure their only response seems to be that we need to believe harder, whether it's the Brexit disaster or the NHS folding or the Truss budget car crash. Failure is due to a conspiracy of woke lefty remainer lawyers (and in the latter case, that apparently includes the City of London financial markets). The only way to solve the problems caused by the last 10 years of Tory is another 5 years of Tory!
I’m sure a lot of them genuinely believe their dogma
I would agree - but its a mechanism for concentrating power and wealth in the hands of the powerful and wealthy. Its just the "big lie" and its conned a lot of people
the problem is now that many tourism business cannot get seasonal staff any more
We were in Devon last summer and a pub had a sign outside wanting a chef..."no experience necessary".
Needless to say we took our custom elsewhere.
we shouldn’t make excuses for mediocrity and you should be responsible for your own success or failure.
if they actually lived that creed, we’d not be in the mess we are now. They’re the poster kids for mediocrity.
Has there ever been a Tory govt that made the country a better place overall?
If you mean England then I venture Edward Heath who brought EU membership and decimalisation, lost to the unions, rationalised local government, disagreed with what Thatcher wanted... . If you are Scottish, Welsh or an Irish republican you might not make the same judgement.
I don’t accept that. Thats the lie they sell and it cons some folk but even if it were true the effect? To concentrate power and wealth in the hands of the powerful and wealthy.
Oh yeah I'm not sticking up for Tories, hell no. What I'm saying is that some people do want to do good for the country, and they think that conservatism is how to do it. They are dead wrong, usually because they just don't understand the issues, but they aren't mendacious. In fact they can be very naive. They think that hard work brings success; that rich people deserve their success and that poor people must've done something wrong. Poor people just need to try harder, they say. But it's just not true.
Other Tories are nasty though. And I couldn't tell you what the ratio is...
Yup. The basic premise is a lie but some folk are (willingly??) conned into believing it.
Another brexit bonus. A pal of mine runs a bespoke high end clothing company - its a small company. She is of European nationality. She recently had an appearance on TV in her home country. As a result she got some provisional orders from that country. She could not fill those orders because of the costs of importing into that country single bespoke items. Her already high prices would have to increase by at least 50% to maintain any profit margin. Thus in actual fact when those who had ordered found out the price no firm orders came thru.
So not only has she had to go thru expensive and time consuming bureaucratic hoops to get residence here but brexit has cost her company many thousands of pounds in foregone profits. Enough to have perhaps employed another person
Pre brexit the items would have sold there for the same price as here.A not unusual story but one close to me
Global Britain…just not the bit nearest to us.
The basic premise is a lie but some folk are (willingly??) conned into believing it.
Or it's just naivety. It seems reasonable, until you learn that people aren't simple machines, that success isn't how much money you make, and you then start to think about what should a government be for?
And we’ve still got the best to come
At the end of the year Rees Moggs absolutely unhinged ‘Retained EU Laws Bill’ comes in.
The Brexiters are getting their bonfire of EU law – and democracy will lie in the ashes
This is where loads and loads of the things we all take for granted will simply cease to exist
This is the real reason for Brexit. This is what they wanted all along. They get to torch workers rights, food standards, environmental controls and pretty much everything else they don’t like, all literally overnight
And if business thinks it’s got problems now, just wait until this shit happens. It’s going to cause absolute carnage! With nobody knowing which standards will still apply and which won’t (even Whitehall departments haven’t really got a clue)
We are about to be Guinea Pigs in a huge experiment the likes of which nobody has ever conducted before.
A country is about to tear up half its laws (even in government, nobody actually knows how many) and just see what happens
Clue: nothing good, that’s for sure
The disaster capitalists are licking their lips in anticipation and most people (particularly the ****s who voted for it) are gleefully unaware of the chaos that is about to be unleashed
The disaster capitalists are licking their lips in anticipation and most people (particularly the **** who voted for it) are gleefully unaware of the chaos that is about to be unleashed
The Friday evening after the 2019 General Election I sat with my OH at the kitchen island and we were discussing the result and the impact on ordinary (and especially poor) folk. My response?
"**** 'em"
She looked in surprise as I've been a solid left-wing voter my entire life.
"No, **** 'em. Far too many of them just voted to either be shat on or to shit on others. So **** 'em. Their lives are going to get really, really difficult. But they voted for this as they believe that it's OTHER peoples lives that are going to be impacted, not them."
The only question I can't answer is, were they gullible as well as selfish?
This is the real reason for Brexit. This is what they wanted all along. They get to torch workers rights, food standards, environmental controls and pretty much everything else they don’t like, all literally overnight
Very much this.
Cue much leaning on Sunak to get this through parliament sharpish so they can render us as a direct competitor to Bangladesh for standards of working.
I genuienely can't believe even the Brexiteers are not even the slight bit concerned, do they think all these 'bendy banana' rules won't affect them in the least? Even if workers rights are taken away, do they not realise its going to make it even harder to trade with the EU and each business is going to have to prove its working to EU standards to send stuff there.
That EV battery plant not coming means we're never going to be able to make cars to sell in the EU now as the point of origin rules are going to come into effect and not enough will actually have been built here.
I hope the red wallers will be happy with their 6 day working week and 2 weeks holiday.
I genuienely can’t believe even the Brexiteers are not even the slight bit concerned
A lot of people simply have no idea about any of it. They don't know the first thing. Tories have played on people's sentiment to make them feel positive, that's it. They don't know anything at all about how countries are run or what the implications of laws are. It'd be like asking a 5 year old child if they think it's a good idea.
“**** ’em”
I don't agree with this. A great many poor people didn't vote Tory, or Brexit, but they will still be in the shit. A great many were lied to and don't have the ability to realise it. So they are victims, their kids are victims, we all are victims and we will all suffer.
When gullible sweet old ladies are scammed out of their life savings, do you also think '**** em'?
When gullible sweet old ladies are scammed out of their life savings, do you also think ‘**** em’?
When they have been told many times over its a scam and they still do it then its hard to be sympathetic.
No brexit voter is guilt free. many of them did this deliberately to harm folk - because the main driver was racism and the brexiteers played on that.
Some people definitely voted for it to stick a finger in the eye of people like me who got a bit ahead in life and escaped a poor economic situation. Unfortunately, they were successful both in general and specifically with regards to me.
A great many were lied to and don’t have the ability to realise it.
You were fed an information set based on your pre-existing trends and beliefs through social media or your choice of newspaper.
The accurate information was out there and available to everyone but a lot of people chose to ignore it.
I only know a couple of Brexiters. One is my brother in law who is also an anti-vaxxer, refused to wear a mask at any time, conspiracy theorist, listens to JHB. He’s abusive/controlling to his wife. He’s not thick, a chartered accountant. He’s just an absolute ****.
Good old bRexit
I’m still stuck in my personal Brexit timewarp,but alledgely I’ll be getting my driving licence back with 3 months,I reckon it’s been six months that I’ve been unable to drive due to licence not being recognised in Spain !!!
I’m looking forward to finding out what other Brexit ‘gotchas’ await in the future.
Backlog on residency also creates interesting side effects,It’s literally years since I’ve been U.K. side and if I leave Spain now that allegedly indicates that I no longer wish to proceed with my residency application.
Legal advice is don’t leave Spain.
Interestingly I do wonder if I went to Portugal on my holiday and got stopped by the police whether they would send me back to the U.K. as currently no right to stay in the E.U (well other than Mrs DoD having residency)and a long term overstayer.
<rant>
Ah well the joys of voting with your feet, Brexit affects me daily and I’m not even in your country.
If you don’t like it in the U.K. **** off to your beloved eu they said on FB 🙂
</rant>
That EV battery plant not coming means we’re never going to be able to make cars to sell in the EU now as the point of origin rules are going to come into effect and not enough will actually have been built here.
Thats the symptom not the cause though, who were they going to sell to?
Nissan? Built their own
JLR? Tata's building one for them
Mini - On its way out of the UK
Honda - Gone
Ford - Gone
So you have Vauxhall, and a handful of sports cars that might need batteries in the UK. Im pretty sure the whole business plan must have hinged on exporting to the EU.
The accurate information was out there and available to everyone but a lot of people chose to ignore it.
Some, maybe, but a huge number of people just don't have the mental capacity or the will to look for information.
People just want to feel good - we all do. This is how our brains work, deep down. So if you tell people something that makes them feel good, they won't question it because they won't like the answers. Most of us are like the 'bad guy' in the Matrix who doesn't want to leave it - we choose what we want to question and what we accept. Most people on this thread are critical thinkers, it's true, but that's because we value critical thinking - it makes us feel good to consider ourselves as such. Sure, you don't feel good about Brexit, but you feel good about being a remainer, don't you? Deep down? I do, because I feel that remain was and is the right thing to do.
It is possible for people to deconstruct their emotions and ideas - but you have to want to do that and you have to have the faculties to do it in the first place. The alternative is to listen to whoever is saying the things that make you feel good. People aren't consciously or actively choosing not to know - they just don't feel the need to ask the questions that result in the knowledge because they are hearing things that make them feel good, and that's all any of us need.
Pretty much the first thing I did when I moved to Sweden was switch out my driving license for a Swedish one. Valid in the UK, valid all over Europe, nothing else required.
And yes, I was also worried about leaving and having residency time reset, but I have since received right to remain and have a citizenship application on, although that is still in the "received" status even after a year.
So you have Vauxhall, and a handful of sports cars that might need batteries in the UK. Im pretty sure the whole business plan must have hinged on exporting to the EU.
Vauxhall is now owned by an EU-based company and no doubt they'll be sorting out their own batteries.
The issue with exporting into the EU is that there's now a big old barrier and I would imagine that we'll end up in the daft situation where any vehicle we export will end up with an EU-sourced battery so the only customers for a UK-based battery factory are for UK sales and non-EU exports (and probably not the likes of US, Japan etc, as they'll want batteries sourced at 'home').
ACC will be supplying the cells for Vauxhall, including the van variants built in the UK.
I’m looking forward to finding out what other Brexit ‘gotchas’ await in the future.
I expect that the law of unforeseen circumstances is going to come into effect in one almighty way when the haunted pencils 'Retained EU Laws' Bill passes
Lets be honest, they either didn't see or didn't care about the obvious problems with the Northern Ireland Protocol, so god only knows what this gang of wreckers has failed to see coming, or ignored, when they jettison up to 4,000 laws overnight
What could possibly go wrong?
I can see the Brextrix.
Unfortunately, they were successful both in general and specifically with regards to me.
Sorry to hear that bikesandboots. I've always assumed you are the Scarborough hotelier of the same name. If so I'd just like to say that the vid on your website is brilliant and I hope you are still in business if ever I'm in that part of the world.
Pretty much the first thing I did when I moved to Sweden was switch out my driving license for a Swedish one. Valid in the UK, valid all over Europe, nothing else required.
They wouldn’t exchange mine without residency 🙁
Mrs DoD(lady of leisure/freeloader- no income,no pension) gained residency and a Spanish driving licence whereas the wage earning Mr DoD got his residency turned down as allegedly his bank account didn’t show proof of living in Spain although they only wanted proof of 10k which was in place)
Apostiled proof of marriage was then requested although originally that wasn’t a thing and they already had a zillion documents ,payslips work contract officially translated, fired in just awaiting the call to get my fingerprints taken which should have been anytime in the last six months but still patiently waiting.
It’s all been handled by Spanish lawyers and I reckon it’s been trundling on for 18 months.
I’m not the only one in this situation,although I’m lucky as I’ve a chauffeur wife with residency other people haven’t and have been struggling.
I can see the Brextrix
Ah you must be the Girls mop then 🙂
They wouldn’t exchange mine without residency 🙁
Might be a bit of a faff but couldn't any UK citizen obtain an Irish licence pretty quickly?
couldn’t any UK citizen obtain an Irish licence
Have you been listing to Andrew Bridgen?!?
couldn’t any UK citizen obtain an Irish licence
Have you been listing to Andrew Bridgen?!?
Or Guy Martin 🙂
Sorry Guy if your reading that - a cheap joke 🙁
Or Guy Martin 🙂
At least Guy's spent a lot of time in Ireland, and if he'd the accent he could easily pass for an Irish Road Racer (hippy assassin).
Back to the question of Starmer and his attitude to rejoining - sorry.
I listened to The News Agents podcast interview with him in Davos ( https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/episodes/7DrexKd/) in which he said rejoining the EU, even the SM, was politically impossible and would be an unaffordable distraction from fixing the problems we have. He also pointed out that although Brexit wasn't helping, our problems started before Brexit. I've been thinking about this, and as an ardent remainer I've rather unwillingly come to the conclusion that he is right. How many years would it take to negotiate a re-entry? Four? Five? You'd probably have to have 2 more referendums, one on whether or not to rejoin, and then another on whether to rejoin on the specific terms negotiated. It would totally dominate the government and the civil service at a time when they've already been distracted by 8 years of Brexit. The EU might not want to make the huge investment in time and money to support their end of the process. Overall, it would be catastrophic. Which is why his approach of pursuing 'better' trading arrangements is the right one, as long as it's accompanied by real progress on the other areas he identifies as critical - skills, health, housing.
TL;DR it doesn't matter whether Starmer campaigns on a rejoin ticket or not, as rejoining is not politically deliverable.
I do not accept that at all
All starmer is doing is running scared of the tory press and pandering to those red wall racists. By doing this he is ruling out the biggest thing to help our position. He is lying and its obvious " no economic case to rejoin" is a lie
Why would there need to be 2 referendums? Why would it take 8 years plus?
Yes the EU might say " awa' an' shite" and I would if I were them.
Edit - there are no significantly better trading arrangements to be had yes he could do some minor tinkering but nothing that will undo the damage so thats another lie
He will be attempting to make those things better with both hands tied behind his back so no real progress can be made and he is allowing the tories to get away without the blame because he is now supporting brexit
I listened to The News Agents podcast interview with him in Davos ( https://www.globalplayer.com/podcasts/episodes/7DrexKd/)
Lots of present tense in his answers. I think he portrays the current situation with Europe accurately. Where closer cooperation takes us, and where it ends, is an open question still. The possibilities could look completely different in ten years time, after a successful period of thawing of relationships and the honouring of new closer agreements and working practices.
I’d just listened to that interview, and was going to post it in the Starmer thread, because it touched a lot of issues (including kicking any answers about how the GRA should be modernised into the long grass, presumably to take the heat out of it rather than have an election made the conflicts over it worse, or just cowardice about losing support over it).
So another ten years of falling behind and losing jobs and taxes to the EU. What little ambition he shows.
This is the price of Brexit. It is a long slow period of repair ahead, no matter what. It’s just reality. There, is, no, quick, fix.
kicking any answers about how the GRA should be modernised
Oh dear. the GRA is a scotland only bill. Its nothing to do with him
There is Kelvin. You just don't want to see it. Starmer has blown this completely. He should have spent the last few years hammering the tories for the damage and loudly saying we will go back ASAP. Even doing that would have reduced the damage.
Stop believing his lies
the GRA is a scotland only bill.
There’s a GRA covering where I live as well. Listen to the interview.
Appreciate you’re not interested in the nuances of where the UK goes in the next five years or so as regards Brexit, so you might as well fast forward past that bit of the interview.
Apologies - Gender Recognition act in England . Gender reform act in Scotland
I have no interest in listening to Starmer lying.
This is the price of Brexit. It is a long slow period of repair ahead, no matter what. It’s just reality. There, is, no, quick, fix.
The end of the Union is another "price of Brexit".
This is the price of Brexit. It is a long slow period of repair ahead, no matter what. It’s just reality. There, is, no, quick, fix.
I'm in this camp too. I'd love TJs immediate jump back in, but it's politically and practically not deliverable for at least two terms. It's just a harsh, sad fact of how badly Brexit has ruined everything.
Let's minimise any further Brexit damage, feel out how to get closer ties and move towards it, and get rid of tbe Tories.
I do not accept that at all
Yeah, well, I didn't expect you to.
Let's imagine that Starmer does what you want and campaigns on "Brexit is shit and I'm going to reverse it". Let's imagine that that is, as you expect, really popular and he wins a big majority. Now TJ, please set out for us what then happens over the 5 years of his elected term. What does his government actually do, given that mandate?
There is no minimising ( other than very marginal ways that will make no real difference) the damage of brexit without joining the CU and SM at the very least. Instead the damage will continue to compound and the UK will get poorer and poorer
Thats one of Starmers lies. don't fall for it
What does his government actually do, given that mandate?
Rejoin. Its not rocket science! Straight into negotiations with the EU cap in hand. Accept everything ( conditions are clear), referendum, rejoin.
But he has blown it. he cannot politically change course now. the reason it is politically impossible is because he made it so by becoming a brexiteer.