Can we be fair to Roger Daltery? At least he is now speaking up for others… the likes of The Who will have no problem doing a few huge very expensive gigs across Europe, he is now standing up for all the ‘smaller’ bands who he now knows will be hit hard by the actions of this government. And this could have been minimised by the government, even with Brexit. Even as a hardline Brexitier, he had the expectation that the UK would work with the EU to solve problems like this… he was just misguided… and deceived… like millions of others.
When Mr_Daltry voted to end freedom of movement, he meant other peoples freedom of movement, not his own.
Even as a hardline Brexitier, he had the expectation that the UK would work with the EU to solve problems like this… he was just misguided… and deceived… like millions of others.
While this is partly true, a few minutes really thinking about things from a perspective of 'what we have' vs 'we want out and I hope we won't loose it' would have seen through so many of the 'benefits' of Brexit.
Fair play he is stepping up now - but too little, too (4 years) late.
I think that is unfair. His life and work are not being restricted, he is standing up for others. A visa waiver for touring musicians and other trades that rely on travelling around is entirely feasible without keeping EU membership or signing up to full FoM.
Of course, if he had it in him to look at the country more widely, not just his own industry, then he might well realise what we have all lost as regards FoM… but he’s heading the right way. And, if the argument can be made and won about touring visas, perhaps the public will start thinking… “what about other trades”…?
Wake up FFS! This is the whole reason for Brexit. Some of us have been saying it all along. This is the sole reason they wanted us out of the EU. so they can set about a race to the bottom to turn us into a completely unregulated, sweatshop tax-haven off the shores of the EU.
There are no surprises here. They helpfully wrote a book about it, setting out exactly what they planned to do. It should have been made compulsory reading before anyone voted in the referendum.
This lot do not represent the interests of anyone but a tiny, rich minority
Everything is always on the table now, UK law cannot stop that because UK law can be changed. EU law is much harder to change because so much of it is just flesh on the bones of the Treaties, which everyone is pretty much stuck with and which belong to the ECJ.
I wouldn't place too much importance on the Parliamentary posturing, it isn't possible to entrench stuff in this way.
The problem with worker’s rights is that they incur extra costs to the business.
This is not true in the medium to long terms. a happy well rested workforce are more productive.
As discussed the UK courts could rule China to be guilty of genocide, are we to be ruled out of making agreements with them?
The government is reserving the power to make an agreement in such circumstances without recourse to parliament. So the “we” here is the government, not parliament, or the country. If the amendment had passed, the government could still bring new legalisation in front of parliament to support any such contentious deal.
Can we be fair to Roger Daltery? At least he is now speaking up for others… the likes of The Who will have no problem doing a few huge very expensive gigs across Europe, he is now standing up for all the ‘smaller’ bands who he now knows will be hit hard by the actions of this government. And this could have been minimised by the government, even with Brexit. Even as a hardline Brexitier, he had the expectation that the UK would work with the EU to solve problems like this… he was just misguided… and deceived… like millions of others.
I think that's a very charitable way of looking at it. I think its equally likely that he's looking at his projected bottom line post brexit and realised he is going to be taking home a chunk less from European tours than he was before. Even if he has had a Road to Damascus moment, perhaps some contrition would help the cause and I can't help but think staying away from the whole thing would mean his involvment was less of a distraction to the well intended letter.
Do we sell many weapons to people who don't have a dodgy human rights record? Other than the EU of course.
I thinks thats a very charitable way of looking at it.
I’m trying to be charitable to everyone who supported Brexit but feels let down by those that delivered it… be it ageing rockers, fisherman, farmers, people waiting for NHS treatments, market stall traders, retirees in Spain, unionists in NI… anyone and everyone.
In more news about the monumental stupidity of all this
'Absolute carnage': EU hauliers reject UK jobs over Brexit rules
A British freight company director with more than over 20 years’ experience has told how EU hauliers and transport companies are turning their backs on UK business because they are being asked to provide tens of thousands of pounds in guarantees to cover VAT or potential tariffs on arrival in Britain.
We're now viewed as an insular little backwater who it's hardly worth trading with as its too much like hard work. The UK is now demanding that hauliers become customs agents to collect or guarantee VAT revenues. Why would they bother?
We're the first country in human history to impose economic sanctions on itself with an active campaign to deter trade
a happy well rested workforce are more productive.
Exactly. The consequences of not providing this is currently being seen within the NHS, my workplace too for that matter.
I think that is unfair.
Maybe.
The internal conflict I have though is that so many voted for Brexit, I believe taken along on a wave of lies and deceit because it pandered to some soundbites and selfishness. Yes I am holding them accountable for a vote they made that will now cause really significant harm to our nation and many people.
However, I am an optimist. I do think that people will now move to plug gaps, make the best of opportunities, work a way through and make 'something' happen.
The issue is that against so many doing what we can we have a Tory government who are happy to tear up even more, to make changes that really will destroy so many opportunities and lives. As Binners so strongly puts it, wake up people, this is what was going to happen as a combined impact of Brexit and Tory government.
I do think it doesn't take a genius or much thought to work this one out - and yet so many were happy to be sucked in by the liars.
And I voted for none of it.
Exactly. The consequences of not providing this is currently being seen within the NHS, my workplace too for that matter.
The negative consequences are often external to the employers, if they work to a business model that accepts or even relies on fast turnaround of staff.
‘We’ being the executive. Remember that in the absence of a written constitution, that is effectively now the case. The executive is now all-powerful and there is no legal way for anyone to constrain its actions
Feel happy with that?
I certainly don’t
This is a coup. People need to start realising that
This is almost the worst thing about this whole mess. The Henry VII powers, the removal of so many things from parliamentary scrutiny, the fact that even with such scrutiny an 80 seat majority makes it pretty meaningless anyway. There is nothing that could stop them making elections illegal if they chose to do so. Instead it looks like they will just re-draw the boundaries to ensure that they never get voted out, which is slightly less obvious but has the same effect. Unless the opposition get their act together or some backbenchers grow a spine, we are pretty much screwed.
On brexiteers changing their minds. Its to be encouraged adn applauded. they were duped
A good pal of mine was a brexiteer. I recently asked him about this. He said - " to my eternal shame i voted out. I have changed my mind" that is to be accepted graciously
This is not true in the medium to long terms. a happy well rested workforce are more productive.
Of course. But most businesses do not think like that. Hence the need for a supranational body.
” to my eternal shame i voted out. I have changed my mind”
That's how I feel, it's going to annoy me for the rest of my days.
And in a democracy, should be acted upon.
Not one person changing their minds, but 5 years on from the vote (and assuming on average folk from 20 to 70 years old vote) the electorate is 10% different. Plus the increasing numbers suggesting this was a bad idea. On a 1.9% swing.
Worth checking the numbers on whatukthinks.org - it’s bouncing around 50% wanting to rejoin, around two-thirds think leaving was the wrong idea. And the chaos caused by BoJo’s ridiculous deal isn’t going to make us think better of Brexit.
A good pal of mine was a brexiteer. I recently asked him about this. He said – ” to my eternal shame i voted out. I have changed my mind” that is to be accepted graciously
I agree. My sister has said something similar.
I do however think that there is a difference for those who used a platform to promote the untruths, to mis-direct or obscure the reality. There are a group of MP's, celebrities, business people and members of the public who went out their way to influence others. I still would accept a contrite reply as your friend - however I think there are many who are either doubling down or won't push back.
That’s how I feel, it’s going to annoy me for the rest of my days.
I honestly believe that no one should feel shame for how they voted in the past. Everyone is trying to just get on with their lives, rather than getting to the bottom of what plausible ideas the politicians are proposing. If politicians promise one thing, and deliver another, then they should feel ashamed. Those politicians that shouted down the advice of experts as to what leaving the Single Market and Customs Union really means as "Project Fear", rather than putting forward ways to deal with that reality, are the ones who should absolutely feel the worse form of shame. Be annoyed at them, not your self.
And we should have had a "measure twice, cut once" referendum... the closeness of the 2016 referendum, and the willingness of campaigners to immediately back track from the promises they made in the campaign, meant that the public should have been asked again. I'm still not angry with anyone for how they voted in 2016. I am angry with those that refused to let people reassess their decision, and vote again, before we went past the point of no return... especially those that claimed that letting people vote again was "undemocratic".
Everyone has the right to change their mind, and we should not only embrace those that do, but also apologise for any ranker they suffered from people because of their past choices.
and assuming on average folk from 20 to 70 years old vote
People go on voting till they drop dead at on average 80 plus. The most elderly vote more than any other age group and have about double the turnout rate of the youngest voters. And that is a problem.
The British are among the worst idlers in the world. We work among the lowest hours, we retire early and our productivity is poor.
Ladies and gents, I give you, Exhibit A:
I don't know anyone in the UK who could litterly get away with being asleep on the job, aside from the pretend MPs who call others lazy.
Edukator - agreed but the population tapers with age and everyone gets older at roughly the same rate (too many dodgy physics programs) so I won’t be far off.
I take you point on an average of 81 though. That would give 8.5% on a flat average.
If you are correct that old folk vote more, then my 10% or higher is likely.
PS to the trade deals and genocide thing. The lack of a trade deal doesn’t prevent trade - just makes it more difficult and costly. And governments do trade deals but do very little trade - that tends to be businesses.
Polling research from Ipsos MORI suggests that turnout in 2019 ranged from 47% among 18 to 24-year‑olds up to 74% among over-65s.
If you look at countries that publish voter turnout by age group (for example the US) it's even more extremme when you look at the very oldest and youngest voters. 18.4% of the British population is aged over 65*. If the over 70s hadn't been able to vote, Brexit would not have happened.
* or it was before Covid
The lack of a trade deal doesn’t prevent trade...
And the (rejected) amendment wouldn't even prevent a government from signing a trade deal... but it would require legislation that parliament would get to scrutinise and vote on, rather than the government doing a back room deal. MPs may well approve such a deal, if they could amend to exclude any sectors that could be seen as supporting genocidal actions, and could add in clauses on human rights (see EU EBA style arrangements for unstable states in Africa, for examples of such exceptions and clauses).
I do however think that there is a difference for those who used a platform to promote the untruths, to mis-direct or obscure the reality. There are a group of MP’s, celebrities, business people and members of the public who went out their way to influence others. I still would accept a contrite reply as your friend – however I think there are many who are either doubling down or won’t push back.
This is pretty much who Donald Tusk was referring to:
The gullible & useful idiots I can forgive, to a point, but I'll still remind them they voted for this on every single occasion.
They voted to make me, them and 99% of us poorer and as they'll see a basic dismantling of the UK's welfare state & universal healthcare paid for by the sacrifices of ordinary folk during two World Wars.
But those backers & pushers that Matt described - **** you, and rot in hell.
On brexiteers changing their minds. Its to be encouraged and applauded. they were duped
Whilst i totally agree with this - i'm not quite there with the forgiveness yet.. particularly with those industries like fishing who voted so overwhelmingly for BREXIT.
I'm still at the F*ck them stage..
And the (rejected) amendment wouldn’t even prevent a government from signing a trade deal… but it would require legislation that parliament would get to scrutinise and vote on, rather than the government doing a back room deal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Reform_and_Governance_Act_2010
This exists, to ensure treaties are put to parliament 21 days before ratification. Obviously the current parliamentary makeup means that ratification would be more or less assured.
Whilst i totally agree with this – i’m not quite there with the forgiveness yet.. particularly with those industries like fishing who voted so overwhelmingly for BREXIT.
I couldn't disagree more strongly. Those hit hardest by the changes coming down the track deserve our understanding, especially if they couldn't see them coming and voted to enable them. It's going to be hard for so many sectors over the next decade, we can't start abandoning those where it happens to be the case that more people fell for the con than did not.
This exists, to ensure treaties are put to parliament 21 days before ratification
That didn't cover trade deals. We were in the EU then. Recent legistation explicitly gives the executive full control over how we approach trade deals, they can choose to include parliament as little or as a much as they see fit, when they see fit. So far, votes on post Brexit deals have been at the last minute, with no opportunity to scrutinise or revise.
Edukator - I think we are agreed really. Given that the old vote disproportionately, but also tend to be more likely to die in a 5 year period then taking 5/60ths (5 years out of the 20-80 average voting range) then the change in the effective electorate will be 8.5% plus a bit for the fact that the average death was more likely to be a voter. Plus a bit for C-19 obviously.
And more again if the younger voter works out that actually they will have to live with Brexit for some time unless they do something while an 80 something won’t. Not that there’s anything they can do this week. Four years to go.
Although I do recall something suggesting that those old enough to recall WWII were slightly in favour of the EU and it was the boomers who tended to Brexyism (massive generalisation of course).
That didn’t cover trade deals.
It was mentioned by Greg Hands yesterday.
Finally, I remind the House that ultimately if Parliament is not content with a trade deal that we have negotiated, it has statutory powers, under the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, to prevent ratification by resolving against ratification indefinitely. That is in addition to Parliament’s power to vote down any necessary implementing legislation, again thereby preventing ratification.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2021-01-19a.793.3&p=10180
I honestly believe that no one should feel shame for how they voted in the past.
In all circumstances? Personally I beleive that sometimes people should feel ashamed of how they've behaved in the past, and that includes voting (i've certainly done things i'm ashamed of!). And if they can't manage shame, then certainly accountability. People voting have put Trump in power, Johnson in power, Orban in power - there must be accountability there.
On the genocide amendment thing - those who were against it on this thread - you're supportive of doing trade deals with countries currently engaged in genocide? I struggle to get my head around that - tear up a trade deal with the EU, but one with countries committing genocide - fine?
to prevent ratification by resolving against ratification indefinitely
Parliament can not stop the singing of a trade deal.. it can not force it to be modified... it can keep delaying ratification... but the deal can still come into force on the date the executive agreed when signing, with the contents it agreed to without consultation with parliament. Rubber stamping... with no say.
I'm struggling with the forgiveness too. It is generally accepted that politicians lie, that most of what is printed in the tabloids or put on Facebook is utter garbage, and yet all the Brexiteers I know went along with it, with very little thought beyond stopping immigrants or what was printed on the side of a bus. I think for there to be forgiveness, there needs to be contrition, and I haven't personally seen a great deal of that yet.
You won't get contrition. You won't get the UK back in the EU. So... we need to deal with what is coming down the tracks... and "you voted for this shit, hard luck" is entirely unconstructive... "they lied to you, don't trust them"... and ..."hold their feet to the flames to sort this out" might be.
I must admit though, the "give them the benefit of the doubt, again" approach of some, knowing what they know now about the lies of those that now govern us, very frustrating. What has to happen for some people to see that the problem is the conmen and women, as much as the con they have got away with?
On the genocide amendment thing – those who were against it on this thread – you’re supportive of doing trade deals with countries currently engaged in genocide? I struggle to get my head around that – tear up a trade deal with the EU, but one with countries committing genocide – fine?
Don't think anyone has said that they endorse trade deals with countries engaged in genocide on this thread
There is a fairly large part of me that thinks, you've made your bed lie in it. I'm fine to forgive if people change their mind, but I will certainly think that the person has exhibited poor judgement.
I do struggle with the insinuation that we all need to pull together and make the best of this terrible situation. I have been and will doubtless be further impacted by brexit and this Tory government, but at a macro scale I'll be fine... A lot of the people who will be most impacted will be those who voted for it.
Don’t think anyone has said that they endorse trade deals with countries engaged in genocide on this thread
I thought someone suggested that the reason for not voting for it would be as it might prevent a trade deal with China?
I do struggle with the insinuation that we all need to pull together and make the best of this terrible situation.
Depends... when some people say that, they mean to just accept the terrible mess we are now in... where as I think we need to vastly improve our arrangements with the EU (and others) to reduce that mess. We won't be members again, but there are many ways we can work with the EU, and others, beyond the limited narrow horizons set for us by the incompetents that currently run the country. Visa wavers for musicians is just one easily understood example... but closer cooperation as regards education, trade, travel... it's all possible... and, ultimately, necessary, if we want a broad economy and society.
I thought someone suggested that the reason for not voting for it would be as it might prevent a trade deal with China?
Yes it was me, I wasn't condoning genocide, or doing trade deals with countries involved in it. I was pointing out how it would hinder the gov when making a possible future trade deal with China.
What trade deal with China? What year is that likely to be signed?