Another view could be helping to help protect the health of the poor and vulnerable who can’t afford to live in ‘nice’ areas
+1
Who actually wants to breath polluted air?
To those who say the signage is clear and the council have communicated information about the CAZ to people google how many of the Council’s own vehicles have been caught in the zone to see exactly how badly this has been handled.
That would include their waste collection vehicles that have to go into CAZ but they still are paying the costs because they aren't trying to shirk their responsibilities.
Some of you clearly not comprehending that the cars and hgvs that don't comply are just driving round residents streets to avoid the cameras with longer travel times and pollution So that helps. My wife had no choice to drive no public transport at 3 am ect and on call. So we scrap an already made perfectly good car that gave superior MPG than the petroleum based new ish car.
She uses more fuel less nox I assume but the tanker that delivers extra fuel is pumping it out.
Not exactly joined up thinking is it. Reduced speed limits and enforcement would have reduced fuel consumption and nox.
Some of you clearly not comprehending that the cars and hgvs that don’t comply are just driving round residents streets to avoid the cameras with longer travel times and pollution So that helps. My wife had no choice to drive no public transport at 3 am ect and on call. So we scrap an already made perfectly good car that gave superior MPG than the petroleum based new ish car.
I'm still after a rant about an LTN to complete my persecuted motorist's bingo card.
If you write to the council and get your street shut we can both win.
I'm not persecuted I don't live in brum and couldn't give a toss tbh just relaying my experience of the situation as it directly affected my wife. I've just typed I'm all for speed reduction and enforcement.
Now when I type I could not give a toss that's not strictly true.
How's that for bingo full house?
If you want less c02 maybe we should all stop buying bikes shipped from china when the one we brought 3 years ago is perfectly still usable.
Or Garmin watches, coffee machines ect
I had to drive into Birmingham a couple of months ago for work. I had no idea about the LEZ until I got there, but the signage (to me) was blindingly obvious, so paid the fee as soon as I parked up. (had my own bodyweights worth of tools and equipment, so couldn't train it + Sunday, so limited service)
I'll admit I'm torn about the whole LEZ thing. On the one hand, yes, polluters should be charged more, and there needs to be a disincentive for driving into town centres.
On the other hand all its actually doing is pushing more consumerism as people just buy new "environmentally friendly" vehicles, without actually thinking about the carbon etc costs of creating the new vehicle. It's not actually reducing overall pollution, just moving it around some.
What there isn't is a "positive" incentive to use an alternate form of travel - whether that's making bikes easier, better (24hr) bus & train services etc etc.
Me? I've got a 2005 diesel with 180+k on the clock, which I've owned for 12 years. Its reasonably efficient, good to drive, very reliable, and it suits the majority of the driving I do, which tends to 150-200 mile each way motorway jaunts. Local stuff I (mostly) ride to. To replace that with a EU6 (so'16 plate) vehicle of similar quality and capability I'm looking at £16-20k, which I just don't have, and that's a HELL of a lot of LEZ charges. If work need me to drive into a LEZ zone, then they can pay. If its personal, I'll figure out a way round it, but that may well backfire with the intended aim. (The obvious one for me is that Wickes is just inside the proposed Sheffield LEZ zone. Instead I'll drive the extra 10 minutes of 70mph A-road each way to the Chesterfield branch...)
I avoid Brum like the plague now....
I noticed the signs all around the ring road when I went up the Coventry Road a couple of months back - traffic around there is a nightmare with those trying to avoid the charge.
Up until 2020 I worked in the Mail Box and used to get the train in from Cannock - hated that and it was worse if I drove to site and then the office because of the mental parking charges in the Bullring, indoor markets and Mailbox etc.
Last time I actually went in to Brum was August 2020 to hand my laptop & phone back - not been there since!
Crucially these zones aren't about carbon emissions. So saying you have an efficient vehicle isn't the point or talking about the carbon cost of a new car.
It's about air quality in the city nothing to do with overall environment ghg issues.
It's the same thing when plastic and other environmental issues get wrapped up with co2 emissions. They are largely separate
It's like.... It's like there's a deliberate plan to encourage people not to drive....
I'm all for it, I know I'm lucky* in that my circumstances allow me not to drive, but disincentivising driving benefits everyone, not just me. Interesting looking out the window at the school run traffic jam how many cars were still heavily (and in some cases dangerously) frozen - they haven't gone far to get here, probably be quicker to walk your child to school and back than it is to sit in traffic (certainly quicker to cycle, conditions allowing). Drivers, meh.
* I say lucky - it was actually played for, that was.
My daily driver is a van that is not used for commercial use. I’ve asked several times about the exemptions as its going to cost me £45 per week to travel to work
Isn't that the point of the clean air zone? If you won't stop driving your polluting vehicle for the planet or even yourself maybe you'll do it for your wallet and consider taking a bike, train, bus, scooter, carpooling, buying a less polluting vehicle etc etc. OF course the council don't mind making a few quid in the process but the principle is that.
Pay as you go road tax hopefully is the next one, would love to see a way of taxing idiots that drive for stupid sub 2 mile trips all the time
Of course it'd be great to see the biggest polluters such as the military getting on board but for now any step is good
Love the hypocrisy on here, bleating about all sorts of environmental stuff and mental health and cycling being awesome for health etc etc but as soon as they are asked to dip into their pockets or change their lifestyle to help others it’s suddenly not fair on them.
Do you know the only reason why we recycle so much of our household waste? It’s not because of a shared guilty conscience about waste nor do gooders at the council. It’s simply because landfill tax was increased a massive amount to force people into other options to deal with their waste. If the tax wasn’t set up at getting on for nearly £100 a tonne we’d still be dumping it in landfills.
People are selfish, the only way to make people change (apart from a fringe element who actually want to to right thing) is to hit them in their wallets.
My daily driver is a van that is not used for commercial use. I’ve asked several times about the exemptions as its going to cost me £45 per week to travel to work
I see your point, who could have thought that single-occupant, older, oversized, polluting, commercial vehicles being driven in city centers every day might be part of the air quality problem?
But the air issues have just moved 2 miles away? Someone else's problem I guess they want commerce and the cash but don't want the issues it brings.
The park and ride in Leicester Forrest east is a prime example loads of pollution around suburban homes to get a bus into the city who gets the clean air.
How many people need to work in office spaces now anyway or drive/train to that meeting.
Do you know the only reason why we recycle so much of our household waste? It’s not because of a shared guilty conscience about waste nor do gooders at the council. It’s simply because landfill tax was increased a massive amount to force people into other options to deal with their waste. If the tax wasn’t set up at getting on for nearly £100 a tonne we’d still be dumping it in landfills.
Although what actaully happens is we just export most of our 'recycling' to the far east where they either burn it or dump it in the Pacific....
its so nice to see car drivers having to pay for some of the damage and illhealth they cause. they still are massively subsidized by the general taxpayer mind you. Perhaps one day car drivers will actually pay their way
It’s like…. It’s like there’s a deliberate plan to encourage people not to drive….
Absolutely. But you need to show lazy people another, better, easier way or they'll just spaff the cash and bollocks to the environment. We're (mostly) the converted here on this forum. If its a solo mission, and I don't need oodles of kit, I'd much prefer to mix up bikes and trains (although many of the railway co's make that as difficult as possible), but it just doesn't work cost wise most of the time, unless I can bill it as expenses. I had to go to the hospital this morning. 30 minutes each way on the bike in sleet. I might have knocked off 5 mins in the car, but I'd have got stung for parking. Every single person I spoke to was incredulous that I'd chosen to ride in that weather, and wasn't I cold??? Its those people that need converting and it needs positive incentives to consider other options, not just charging them more to continue in the same rut they've always done.
How many people need to work in office spaces now anyway or drive/train to that meeting.
Schrodingers Air Quality? Well, are they producing great billowing clouds of smog at the park and ride or not?
And like* the cat, that is a roundabout way of saying please open the box and cite a source for the decline in air quality around the park and ride so we can see if it's higher or lower.
*actually nothing like the quantum physics phenomenon it relates to. But I'd still like to see you justify with real data how people parking at a park and ride is worse than driving past it into the city center.
Its those people that need converting and it needs positive incentives to consider other options, not just charging them more to continue in the same rut they’ve always done.
Nope, you're wrong. This is perfect.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_aversion
People are twice as affected psychologically by losses (being fined in this example). Comparatively, they're blase about the money they never had (e.g. the opportunity to save it by getting the train/bus/bike/walk).
I had no idea the area was so large. (ref Birmingham CAZ)
Check out the up-coming Greater Manchester CAZ then come back and re-write that.
My view - CAZ's are great but because they're run by the locals there are inconsistencies all over the place. CO2 based, commercial vehicles only, inside 'ring road' includes 'ring road'. Like anything new the issues get sorted out over time. The one that's most likely to affect me (Greater Manchester - because I route through the eastern side of it to get to the whole western Motorway network and I have a T5 based California as my car) only applies to older commercial vehicles - why not all vehicles that don't meet the emissions criteria?
In partial support of the OP, a 2006 diesel 5-series would only have to pay in Birmingham, not Bath, Bradford, Manchester or Portsmouth. That's just daft. My van - I'd have to pay in Birmingham, Bradford and Greater Manchester but not Bath or Portsmouth.
@footflaps
Your not supposed to know it's all dumped in the south china seas.
Or it's burnt some of it only gets as far as eastern Europe before it's burned in scrap yards and the streets.
Stop buying stuff year on year for sake of it and we solve the issue.
Off tangent I know but how many of you have a log burner and really need one 5%
Need 2 bikes or that fancy phone that is the same as last year's?
It's all one issue not clean air or less c02 it's one planet.
Its those people that need converting and it needs positive incentives to consider other options, not just charging them more to continue in the same rut they’ve always done.
Since you're referencing sheffield it's probably relevant to note that the council are trying to do just that, for example with bus lane changes on abbeydale and eccy roads. The people you're talking about are totally up in arms about that, so maybe they're not so interested in positive incentives after all...
Although what actaully happens is we just export most of our ‘recycling’ to the far east where they either burn it or dump it in the Pacific….
Although that makes a nice Daily Mail headline it isn’t something that is commonplace - you are always going to get people who want to act illegally.
Having being involved and understanding the processes involved in exporting waste I know it’s not an east task to do. The vast majority of recycling does in fact get recycled.
These schemes do strike me as a way of pricing the poor off the road so that the wealthy can drive about without any traffic jams
Poorer people are far more likely to be the victims of poor air quality, and are far less likely to own a car. And given that a 15 year old petrol car is compliant, it's difficult to see how anyone who could previously afford to run a car is being priced off the road.
@thisisnotaspoon I never typed the air was worse or better I said it moved the problem...
There may be more dead cats due to higher traffic on the roads I'm not sure if Erwin Schrödinger is from Leicester but if he left his cat on a busy road in a box then well. Real or not.
Maybe i’m Just out of touch but it definitely makes me not go back to Birmingham and warn others about fines.
Is that not precisely the purpose of the zone?
Some of the attitudes and opinions in here, demonstrate why the planet is ****ed.
pk13
Free Member
@thisisnotaspoon I never typed the air was worse or better I said it moved the problem…
And gave zero data to back up that assertion. Which even at a funny look test seems to fall appart as those cars are now stopping at a park and ride outside of town, rather than driving past it.
Meaning less miles traveled.
And less time idleing in city center traffic.
And air pollution is very localised. Particulates emitted on a motorway are unlikely to cause issues as they disperse by the wind or get removed from the air by rain. So it really is only an issue when the traffic is concentrated into a city center over a prolonged period. A P+R filling and emptying once a day won't cause an issue (unless, you actually have data to back up your point. Unfortunately like most negatives mines hard to prove so the burdens on you I'm affraid).
No brum wants you to go and spend your cash in the city. Work in it build in it ect. They did let a new concrete site open just off the m6 thou.
They are more than happy I believe the young uns call it green washing
But the air issues have just moved 2 miles away? Someone else’s problem I guess they want commerce and the cash but don’t want the issues it brings.
The park and ride in Leicester Forrest east is a prime example loads of pollution around suburban homes to get a bus into the city who gets the clean air.
There may well be specific issues at specific sites but lets say there are 4 Park n Ride facilities that means that each one has only 1/4 of the traffic of the city centre. Moreover because there's less congestion (because 1/4 of the traffic at each one, and possibly better infrastructure) there is less of the most problematic pollution. On top of which the geography around PnR facilities usually is much more open rather than rightly packed tall buildings so pollution has a greater opportunity to disperse.
Maybe i’m Just out of touch but it definitely makes me not go back to Birmingham and warn others about fines
I suggest if you do go back, that you use a form of transport that doesn't polute, or pay the charge.
From the Uk gov website: "Air pollution is the biggest environmental threat to health in the UK, with between 28,000 and 36,000 deaths a year attributed to long-term exposure. "
Yet, people are upset that schemes which try to reduce this cost them. In the grand scheme of motoring, a fine of 60pounds (for failing to see the signs) is very little. Motoring has also got cheaper and cheaper in real terms over the last 20 years.
Another view could be helping to help protect the health of the poor and vulnerable who can’t afford to live in ‘nice’ areas
Lol, I don't think there's many poor people in most city centres these days, they've all been shipped out into ghettos on the outer reaches. More like absent foreign investors/owners of empty "luxury" apartments.
As poly asked nicely and left cats out of it.
I lived close to that site.
Busy all day
Inconsiderate drivers
Black windows from smog/ soot.
Unable to put washing out to dry due to smell.
Windows unopened in summer.
It may have been put in the wrong location it may not be.
Traffic increase was witnessed we moved.
But I'm small minded and burning the world down because I don't have data.
Thank you poly for asking without bringing dead cats into it.
Even Steven hawking dismissed it somewhat.
Some of the attitudes and opinions in here, demonstrate why the planet is ****
Nah, "inside dubai playground of the rich" on BBC shows where the real problem lies, they're just amateurs on here
Thank you poly for asking without bringing dead cats into it.
pk13 - so no imagine how much worse it is in the city centre with even more traffic condensed in a smaller area!
pk13
No brum wants you to go and spend your cash in the city. Work in it build in it ect. They did let a new concrete site open just off the m6 thou.
I lived in Brum until 2013. I lived in Kings Heath. The buses to the city centre used to come every five minutes. Literally. The main road through Kings Heath was, at one, point, the most polluted road in Europe.
Birmingham has some of the best public transport provision outside London. There is simply no need for an able-bodied clerical worker to drive into the city centre from the outskirts.
I get it for tradies and those on call, but even then our local authority has offered grants and loans to people to replace their non-compliant vehicles. I bet Brum did as well.
So we scrap an already made perfectly good car that gave superior MPG than the petroleum based new ish car.
She uses more fuel less nox I assume but the tanker that delivers extra fuel is pumping it out.Not exactly joined up thinking is it. Reduced speed limits and enforcement would have reduced fuel consumption and nox.
What was the cost differential between the old and new car? How many journeys would that have covered?
And presumably if it was perfectly good, you didn't scrap it, you sold it, so it's still going strong. If you did scrap it then you are at fault for excessive waste of resources, not the COuncil!
Lol, I don’t think there’s many poor people in most city centres these days, they’ve all been shipped out into ghettos on the outer reaches. More like absent foreign investors/owners of empty “luxury” apartments.
Clearly haven't been to Brum recently then. THere are whole swathes of residential areas which are some of the most deprived within the inner ring road, such as Highgate, Ladywood etc.
People are twice as affected psychologically by losses (being fined in this example). Comparatively, they’re blase about the money they never had (e.g. the opportunity to save it by getting the train/bus/bike/walk).
There's a bloke in our local paper who, rather than pay the occasional fine for using his Mazda Bongo (so a leisure vehicle, not even a work vehicle like a van), decided to completely move house and job, abd buy an additional car. He was even offered a grant from the council, which he refused. The cost to that rather than simply occasionally paying £9 must be huge.
"That would include their waste collection vehicles that have to go into CAZ but they still are paying the costs because they aren’t trying to shirk their responsibilities."
Apart from the Council vehicles that went into the zone and did not pay - sounds exactly like shirking their responsibilities to me.
Lol, I don’t think there’s many poor people in most city centres these days, they’ve all been shipped out into ghettos on the outer reaches. More like absent foreign investors/owners of empty “luxury” apartments.
Clearly haven’t been to Brum recently then. THere are whole swathes of residential areas which are some of the most deprived within the inner ring road, such as Highgate, Ladywood etc.
I started to post about this earlier, but deleted it because I waffled on too much.
I don't know which cities have ghettoes of poor people outside and swathes of expensive flats in the centre - few that I've been to. Even Lambeth, less than a mile from Westminster is poverty stricken. (See also the area just north of Canary Wharf, and plenty of other places in London centre.) Some of the northern cities and towns I've seen in the last few years are desperately run down. Eye of the beholder and all that.
I love Birmingham as a city, but by gosh it needs less cars.
The centre gets better every time a driver decides it's better not to go in. I drive in occasionally, but it's a nightmare and I will avoid it if I can.
As mentioned above, the public transport is actually really good, 3 stations and loads of bus routes. Once the tram is up and running it'll be even better.
Many the commenters seem to have not understood the issue the OP posted about which was not being aware of the zone and being caught by a big fine. This was my experience too although mine was worse as the initial letter was not delivered and I was fined £180.
If I had been aware of the charge I would have paid it without protest and, I dare say, so would the OP. The issue we both had was not noticing the signs about the zone - I do not think either of us are the entitled environmental terrorists that some posters have been trying to paint us as.
There are multiple visitor attractions within the CAZ which attract out of town visitors. I do not think it would be unreasonable to expect the council to spend a bit of money putting up signs at these venues and car parks that service them informing visitors about the CAZ. The fact that this has not happened implies that the Council would rather issue punitive fines than treat visitors to their City with a measure of consideration.
or perhaps your observation skills are rather poor and you really should be paying more attention to the big signs on the way into the zone?
The issue we both had was not noticing the signs about the zone
If you lived in the city you'd doubtless know about the zone.
If you are driving into a city that you aren't familiar with, why aren't you checking out every road sign you see?
(How do you know you aren't driving down a one way street, or in a bus lane? Is it certain signs that you ignore? Yes, I'm being sarcastic, but I've spent the last few years driving up and down the country and through unfamiliar cities, and using the excuse that you missed the signs is a poor one. They aren't hidden.)
Haha, TJ beat me to it - I was just about to post some pics of signs!
The issue we both had was not noticing the signs about the zone
And the response we've given is "why didn't you see them?".
As above, I spend a lot of time in the city and it's really well signposted, even more so on the major arterial routes. I don't see why the council would put additional signage inside the zone, I don't think London does with the congestion zone.
I do wonder if people no longer look for signs now as they just follow a sat-nav screen. I guess it could be useful if it flashed up on the sat-nav maybe? In that case, blame Google/TomTom/Waze rather than Birmingham Council.
Many the commenters seem to have not understood the issue the OP posted about which was not being aware of the zone and being caught by a big fine. This was my experience too although mine was worse as the initial letter was not delivered and I was fined £180.
If I had been aware of the charge I would have paid it without protest and, I dare say, so would the OP. The issue we both had was not noticing the signs about the zone – I do not think either of us are the entitled environmental terrorists that some posters have been trying to paint us as.
I haven't lived there for nine years (and I don't have any family there any more) but I was well aware of the charging for years before it was actually implemented. It's been national news.
As to your point about it being highlighted in attractions etc, presumably that's private land, so the council would have to agree a site-by-site licence with each landowner, which I doubt would be feasible or cost-effective.
I have to say based on our area's implementation I would be hugely surprised if the signage was inadequate - for months beforehand there were warning signs at each entry point, and now there are pictorial signs indicating a CAZ (though in fairness, some people have complained they are unclear, but apparently the council are constrained by the laws relating to road signage). When we've had workmen in from outside the city they've asked about them and I've explained about the CAZ and they just pay the fee.
Though I have to say, I would struggle to say this is not clear in Brum:
Have you got any pictures of signs when it is dark and raining very heavily because those were the conditions when I drove in there.
None of your pictures show the signs being illuminated so is it really that difficult to understand that people driving in poor conditions on unfamiliar roads might be paying more attention to other vehicles, traffic lights etc. than information signs?
The fact that 44,000 fines were issued in the first month of charging does strongly imply there might be some issues with the quality of the signage and that it is not quite the utopia portrayed by the perfect drivers of STW.
I also stand by my comment about the common sense approach of the council and local businesses working in partnership to inform visitors about the CAZ - I am sure businesses would be fine to display council supplied signage to inform their customers that they are within the CAZ rather than have people being fined and not returning due to the draconian fines.
Also the point about sat-nav is valid. I used Waze for my visit and did not get a charging warning. I have just entered the same trip details and did now get a warning so they have caught up.
Have you got any pictures of signs when it is dark and raining very heavily because those were the conditions when I drove in there
So you're saying you didn't drive at an appropriate speed for the conditions, then?
