[Closed] BBC bias - Scottish independence content

Wait, Christopher Lambert isn't Scottish? But his accent was so flawless! Next you'll be telling me Sean Connery isn't Egyptian.

Pfft. Silly! He's Russian! Or is it Spanish? I forget.

.gordimhor - Member
SD-253 - Independent retailers are all part of cooperative
No they aren't.

That's a pretty broad brushstroke there Winston .You find bampots all over the world and Scotland is no exception. A plague on all their houses I say.

Either agree with a Scotsman or apologies for being English if not

rene59 - Member
What a bigoted little man you are.

I thought the Central Belt was Scottish SD-253 at least it was when I lived there.

[i]I think you guys are talking at cross purposes- it's not that the costs will rise- it's that they may already be higher,[/i]

Northwind, yeah I thought this after my last post, still doesn't stack up though, it's still the one organisation with the same stores in the same locations, it won't necessarily follow that costs will rise. I can't see Tesco hiving off a part of its business to become Tesco Scotland ltd. and Tesco the rest of the UK ltd bearing in mind that it already has store in several other countries, presumably it can work out the cost of doing business?

.gordimhor - Member
I thought the Central Belt was Scottish SD-253 at least it was when I lived there.

"free thinking" the vast majority are not.

Not being "free thinking" is not the same being a sectarian bigot.

I was being a little provocative to counter the image projected by the "Yes" campaign, of the brave, hard done by Scots, suffering from years of English oppression, who just want to be free.

I am not jockist, some very good friends of mine are Scottish but to say there are still not major issues regarding religious bigotry, is delusional.

Myself and an English friend were in a pub in a small village just outside Glasgow, quite "posh", started a conversation at the bar, within 3 minutes the gentleman had declared that he was a protestant. Now he wasn't drunk, being aggressive or rude but he seemed to think it was so important that it would be mentioned to strangers in a pub almost immediately. He didn't strike me as someone who really cared about religion either or did he disclose which protestant church he was a "member" of.

OK it's just an anecdote but I can't think of any other part of the UK where this would happen.

.nickc - Member
I think you guys are talking at cross purposes- it's not that the costs will rise- it's that they may already be higher

.winston_dog - Member
"free thinking" the vast majority are not.
Not being "free thinking" is not the same being a sectarian bigot.

I was being a little provocative to counter the image projected by the "Yes" campaign, of the brave, hard done by Scots, suffering from years of English oppression, who just want to be free.

I am not jockist, some very good friends of mine are Scottish but to say there are still not major issues regarding religious bigotry, is delusional.

Myself and an English friend were in a pub in a small village just outside Glasgow, quite "posh", started a conversation at the bar, within 3 minutes the gentleman had declared that he was a protestant. Now he wasn't drunk, being aggressive or rude but he seemed to think it was so important that it would be mentioned to strangers in a pub almost immediately. He didn't strike me as someone who really cared about religion either or did he disclose which protestant church he was a "member" of.

OK it's just an anecdote but I can't think of any other part of the UK where this would happen.

.gordimhor - Member
I thought the Central Belt was Scottish SD-253 at least it was when I lived there.

SD-253 Your original statement was that all independent retailers are part of the cooperative, and as I said they are not. I made the point that prejudice exists in Scotland as it does throughout the world. I then made the point that people who discriminate against others are bampots regardless of where they come from

"Either agree with a Scotsman or apologies for being English if not"

I don't know if your statement above reflects your opinion but it certainly doesn't reflect mine.

to say there are still not major issues regarding religious bigotry, is delusional.

I wouldn't go that far. A big thing gets made of it in the media because it sells papers, but the actual figures of religiously motivated hate crime are pretty low, especially when compared to where race is a factor.

The most recent figures, published in June 2013, are for 2012-1316. By far, the largest proportion of hate crime is that which involves racial aggravation. (A total of 4,012 charges relating to race crime were reported in 2012-13 - 68% of all hate crime.) Twelve percent of hate crime in 2012-13 involved a religious aggravation17.

was from North Ireland..

Northern Island Protestant = displaced Scot.

gordimhor - Member
SD-253 Your original statement was that all independent retailers are part of the cooperative,

Opps cooperatives not the Coop, apologies. None for anything else I typed

.winston_dog - Member
was from North Ireland..
Northern Island Protestant = displaced Scots

A big thing gets made of it in the media

Maybe.

However, especially in Glasgow, it is deeply rooted in the culture. Hence you still have the Orange marches with all the trouble that goes with it.

IME there is also tension connected with the Masonic Lodges, which are subtly different in Scotland, much more "working class" rather than the "middle class professional" types in England. They are Protestant organisations and a Catholic would never be admitted. The masons caused a great deal of problems where I worked!

.whatnobeer - Member
to say there are still not major issues regarding religious bigotry, is delusional.
I wouldn't go that far. A big thing gets made of it in the media because it sells papers, but the actual figures of religiously motivated hate crime are pretty low, especially when compared to where race is a factor.

I live in England last time I met a "jock" his views were "I would never give an English man a job" He was of course working in England for an English firm

my practical experince in an English company is that if you get a Scot in senior management you suddenly get a lot more Scots working for the company

we now have a "tartan ceiling" for jobs

.big_n_daft - Member
I live in England last time I met a "jock" his views were "I would never give an English man a job" He was of course working in England for an English firm
my practical experince in an English company is that if you get a Scot in senior management you suddenly get a lot more Scots working for the company

we now have a "tartan ceiling" for jobs.

In this case the manager was Scottish and brought the man down from Scotland and supplied him with accommodation in his own house. There was plenty of people locally wanting the job. Lorry driving by the way.

religiously motivated hate crime are pretty low, especially when compared to where race is a factor.

Are they not closely linked?

I mean your average Union Flag waving bigot hates Blacks, Aisans and Catholics. Not sure who they hate most. This racial hatred is motivated by their "religious" viewpoints.

I mean have you ever seen a black man wearing a sash and a bowler hat?

I mean your average Union Flag waving bigot hates Blacks, Aisans and Catholics. Not sure who they hate most. This racial hatred is motivated by their "religious" viewpoints.

I'm not sure if you're having a dig at BNP supporters or Rangers fans here. The point is a huge point is made of the sectarian problem while glossing over the fact that racism is a much bigger problem.

.Are they not closely linked?

I mean your average Union Flag waving bigot hates Blacks, Aisans and Catholics.

Ever seen a protest by English Defence League on telly? Last one I saw was not short of both Blacks and Asians or flag waving? And as a Catholic I now plenty of flag waving Catholics i do not think I would call any of them bigots. Although that would depend on your how wide ranging your definition was.

your average Union Flag waving bigot hates

Sd-253 - You are taking this out of context.

I do not think anyone who waves a Union Flag is a bigot.

What I should of written is "your average bowler hat wearing, orange sash wearing, Union Flag waving bigot hates......"

I'm not sure if you're having a dig at BNP supporters or Rangers fans here.

Neither. I am having a go at the awful excuse for humanity that I have seen marching around the streets of Glasgow, hearts full of hatred and bellies full of cheap beer and buckfast, under some "Religous" pretence. The fact that a lot of them may be both BNP members and Rangers fans is incidental.

My fault SD -253 didn't see the"of Scotland".

Should be fun today.

When I say fun. I'm more implying grim resignation at further imminent arguing, propaganda, scare stories, flippant disregard for reality etc etc etc

That applies to both sides of the argument.

When I say fun. I'm more implying grim resignation at further imminent arguing, propaganda, scare stories, flippant disregard for reality etc etc etc

How's this then?

[url= http://notesfromnorthbritain.wordpress.com/2014/01/28/the-hidden-costs-of-independence/ ]The Hidden Costs of Independence[/url]

Two conclusions may be drawn from the above analysis. The first is that core elements of the Scottish Government’s approach to independence are based on assumptions which are highly questionable in law. The second is that the costs of independence may be considerably greater than has generally been understood.

The Book of Dreams..... 😉 Winston?

So the very polite Mr Carney neatly summed things up today with

"In short, a durable, successful currency union requires some ceding of national sovereignty.

...and here we were thinking this was about independence???.

http://eutopialaw.com/2013/11/28/scotlands-future-in-the-eu/
Professor Armstrongs blog

Even in currency union Scotland will still have much greater control over its economic policy than it does at the moment.

...and here we were thinking this was about independence???.

You keep making this point, but I don't buy it. If you're in the EU then you have to abide by their rules and regulations so none of the EU member states are independent either?

There's always going to be some compromise and I reckon that arguing about semantics of whether a state is independent based on what other obligations, treaties and unions it has is missing the bigger picture and not very helpful.

There's always going to be some compromise and I reckon that arguing about semantics of whether a state is independent based on what other obligations, treaties and unions it has is missing the bigger picture and not very helpful.

The cynic would call that a convenient avoidance of some pretty fundamentally important factors. If we have a look over at the Eurozone, we can see the type of compromises that have to be made when countries cede their economic policies - Greece being a pretty good example!

Worth remembering that up till not long ago, Salmond's plan was all for the benefits of Euro membership too...

Yes they are, we (the UK) have our own monetary and fiscal policy for example. The periphery states in Europe do not. Scotland will cede nationally over monetary and fiscal policy if it chooses to be part of a currency union. That is the clear lesson of any currency union and the message from Carney today. So, in the context of a currency union with rUK, it is not true to claim that under independence (as proposed) that Scotland will have freedom to choose its own economic policy - (which to me is what independence is about. )

Whether Scotland would have slightly more power (gordi's argument) is a mute point especially give the experiences in € land. But given that you already have powers to set tax +/- 3% of current uk tax rates, one wonders (a) why wee eck hasn't done this already and (b) what is the difference?

The Scottish Parliament only has the power to very income tax IIRC. New powers will be developed in 2016, but only on a few areas, nothing like full tax setting powers.

Economic policy is obviously a huge part of being independent, but to suggest that it's the only thing would be wrong.

Tbc, I am not suggesting that this is the only part of being independent but as polls explaining voters' motivation show it is one of the more important!

I would be happy if the bias of claiming economic independence was, at the very least "qualified".

whatnobeer - Member
...and here we were thinking this was about independence???.
You keep making this point,

Seems like quite a lot of others are doing the same thing today! Are they biased? (See the broadsheets, BBC etc)

but I don't buy it.

Not sure there is much choice. As the FT sums it up today (with suitable distain and bias!) - you can't have your oat cake and eat it! Perhaps now the SNP can stop deceiving folk about monetary and fiscal independence and what havering a lender of last resort actually means?

teamhurtmore - Please stop scaremongering with your facts and knowledge of how financial systems work. the Scots want their FRREEEEDDDOOOOOMMMM!

No they don't

. winston_dog - Member
teamhurtmore - Please stop scaremongering with your facts and knowledge of how financial systems work. the Scots want their FRREEEEDDDOOOOOMMMM.

To all you jocks out there please please please vote yes. Then you won't be able to blame the English for everything and anything. I'M JOKING OF COURSE YOU WILL STILL BLAME US FOR YOUR CAR NOT STARTING IN THE MORNING OR THE WEATHER ETC. BUGGER OF! please, pretty please

To all you jocks out there please please please vote yes. Then you won't be able to blame the English for everything and anything. I'M JOKING OF COURSE YOU WILL STILL BLAME US FOR YOUR CAR NOT STARTING IN THE MORNING OR THE WEATHER ETC. BUGGER OF! please, pretty please

Oh dear. Chip on your shoulder?

THM is capable of having a debate (mostly 😉 )without flinging around this sort of shite, why cant you and winston? Got bored and decided to troll instead?

http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/snp-accept-currency-union-means-loss-of-powers-1-3286692

And I'm sure an unbiased take from

http://newsnetscotland.com/index.php/referendum/8660-bank-of-england-will-implement-any-currency-agreement-says-carney

Oh dear. Chip on your shoulder?

THM is capable of having a debate (mostly )without flinging around this sort of shite, why cant you and winston? Got bored and decided to troll instead?

To be honest, I dont bother reading his/her/it's posts anymore. It's just the same BS drivel over and over again.

The Margo Macdonald quote in that Scotsman article piemonster linked to raises an interesting question. She says the position won't be known until negotiations start. What if AS doesn't like the outcome of those negotiations? Anyone believe he'll go back to the electorate and say "the deal available wasn't good enough, so the independence project is off"?

After all, he'll be going into a negotiation (with a mandate from less than 100% of 5M people) to ask for something from an rUK team who won't have a mandate from the other c55M people to give anything away.

Back to the BBC's bias - the Carney story was first reported on the BBC under the headline "Carney urges currency plan care".

Now, the same story has the headline "Plan may lead to power loss"

An interesting edit there.

Thing is, though, the BBC isn't reporting a lot of things. Have you seen much about the NHS sell-off in England? Nope. Or when 50,000 protesters picketed the Tory party conference? Barely a mention.

oldbloke - the deal, at it's heart, is quite simple. Let us join a currency union, and we'll take a share of the national debt.

Tell us to walk away, and we will - leaving the whole debt behind.

Tell us to walk away, and we will - leaving the whole debt behind.

No, neither do I - but the principle is there, this is a negotiation of equals and it's in everyone's interest to keep the currency union.

I also don't see why it's such a big deal - the UK at the moment is tied into a lot of financial treaties and agreements, but few people say the UK isn't independent.

It's an odd position for the No campaign to take, to complain that the Yes campaign's proposals aren't independent enough.

Tell us to walk away, and we will - leaving the whole debt behind.

It's most depressing to see generally thoughtful and liberal-seeming people start to sound a bit, well.... jingoistic on the issue of Scottish independence.

Yes, okay, that was a bit hyperbolic. But it's also depressing the way the currency thing is portrayed as "those Scots want something free off England again".

Like on Radio 4 yesterday, one expert kept going on about how the important bit about the discussions was how to protect England when the Scottish economy failed. No mention about vice versa.

Not so sure it is odd for the No campaign - to suggest that independence isn't going to be really that independent might swing some voters to say it isn't worth the risk or hassle.

Some of my colleagues who were swithering have said since yesterday that it is getting too complicated and too much hassle for them to consider saying yes now.

But there's a big risk in staying in the Union as well. Specifically for me, the risk is that the UK (dominated by the English vote) votes to get out of the EU. That would immediately make most things I import about 20% more expensive (and add lots of hassle) and also affect all my exports to Europe.

But it's also depressing the way the currency thing is portrayed as "those Scots want something free off England again".

Well when people come out with stuff like 'we'll just leave the debt behind' it's a bit rich to complain about that isn't it? Look, I totally agree on the cynicism of the press and the no campaign - but you can't have your cake and eat it - which does seem like what some people want. Scottish people don't seem to realise how lucky they are to have the present system of devolution TBH. The north of England gets a much worse deal.

Like on Radio 4 yesterday, one expert kept going on about how the important bit about the discussions was how to protect England when the Scottish economy failed. No mention about vice versa.

He's presumably speaking from an English perspective, with the scenario in mind of England and Scotland being separate countries - I thought that was what you wanted?

The north of England gets a much worse deal.

I completely agree - and if Scottish independence led to a more federal system in the rest of the UK that would be a very good thing.

However, while devolution is great, we have to bear in mind that Westminster can pull back all those devolved powers whenever it likes, without asking the Scottish people. Does anyone trust the current (and any future) government not to do that?

Or even to do it vindictively, for daring to consider independence?

My big worry is that, after a no vote, it's punishment time.

He's presumably speaking from an English perspective, with the scenario in mind of England and Scotland being separate countries - I thought that was what you wanted?

On what is, for the moment, meant to be an unbiased national broadcaster, it's not a helpful perspective to take.

Ben, it's not jingoistic. I am afraid it's simply wrong. An independent Scotland will raise its own debt via the markets in the future. It would be a very odd precedent to set if the first act of independence was to default on existing debt. Now AS says some silly things but even he is not that idiotic to do that.

There is no a priori right to the currency or indeed to a currency union. Carney was being as diplomatic as he could but the message yesterday was clear.

Time for plan b and some honesty.

To be honest, I dont bother reading his/her/[b]it's [/b]posts anymore. It's just the same [b]BS drivel [/b]over and over again.

"It's and BS" - you have to smile. Given that the far more intelligent governor of the BOE says the same BS, you just might have to get used to it!!!

P.S. Ben don't forget we are not part of a currency union because among other things we want the economic independence that wee eck describes. We have a poor record of existing within currency unions and ceding national sovereignty.

bencooper - Member

My big worry is that, after a no vote, it's punishment time.

i'd guess that 'punishment' is just as (more?) likely after a Yes vote, it'll be more difficult, but not impossible.

is it just me, or does the image of Dave and George, delighted to be rid of Scotland's non-tory MP's, guffawing like donkeys at the prospect of whiling away their days dreaming of ways to hobble an independant Scotland*, come to mind all to easily?

(*even better if they can further screw over a few tens of millions of 'undeserving poor/northerners' and blame it on the Scots)

i'll be sad if Scotland votes Yes, but i can totally understand why someone would vote for the chance to be rid of Westminster.

Time for plan b and some honesty.

Plan B is we use the pound anyway - it's a publicly traded currency, Westminster can't stop Scotland, Bulgaria, or Outer Mongolia using the Pound if it wants to.

Really, there's lots of posturing and arguing on both sides, but when there is independence it'll be discussed and worked out sensibly.

i'll be sad if Scotland votes Yes, but i can totally understand why someone would vote for the chance to be rid of Westminster.

I agree - and if there was some way to get rid of Westminster and make a properly accountable federal government in the UK with proportional representation and regional governments, I'd be all for staying in the UK.

But that's not going to happen.

You could use the £ as a medium of exchange but that is a very different thing. May I point you in the direction of the NIESR analysis of the currency arrangements. It's pretty thorough.

One mans posturing is another mans legal opinion and fact. Once again, as with Europe, AS has been caught with his pants down. Yesterday blew away the idea (if it ever stood in the first place) that Scotland has an automatic right to use the £ or be part of a currency unions with rUK. Just because it's in the book of dreams doesn't mean it's true, in fact normally the opposite.

The yes together champaign continues to demonstrate day after day why devolution is in the best interests of the Scottish people. The better together team should just keep mum.

Ok my "yes" friends, I want a bit of balanced reporting, Which paper is broadly sympathetic to the cause. The Scotsman seems generally anti and the Record well.......!! 😀

...who presents the other side well?

Genuine question BTW. I am interested to see how yesterday was portrayed. The record is funny but not much beyond that!!!

There are no newspapers that have come out to broadly support independence as far as I can see.

I was getting that impression, but it seemed surprising.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/pete-martin-newspapers-united-on-the-referendum-1-3280657

It is a bit surprising, but then most newspapers are part of larger media groups where these things would need to be decided at a higher level so perhaps not.

Maybe that's why the Yes campaign does so well on the social media side of things, as there is a shortage of main stream media outlets conveying their message.

It appears to me that The Herald is the least biased.

[url= http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/why-an-independent-scotland-could-become-the-richest-country-on-earth-9096120.html ]Interesting piece in the Independent today though.[/url]

Interesting Rene, thanks. Scotroutes, I tried the herald (and enjoyed today's currency cartoon 😉 ) but still not that positive IMO.

The problem with the indep article where it ends ....."it has oil". Well yes, and financial services and whiskey according to the FT. Two problems, one has a volatile price (oil) and the other is massively oversized (FS). To imagine having the scale of FS with no lender of last resort or using £ as a medium of exchange is crazy. Still...

...anyway thanks for the links and ideas. I will follow the herald a it more closely. I had forgotten an old mate writes for it!!!

[quote=scotroutes ]It appears to me that The Herald is [b]the least biased[/b].
😆

Now now, you shouldn't laugh at your own jokes.

bencooper - Member
But there's a big risk in staying in the Union as well. Specifically for me, the risk is that the UK (dominated by the English vote) votes to get out of the EU. That would immediately make most things I import about 20% more expensive (and add lots of hassle) and also affect all my exports to Europe.

Lost on that statement why would everything be 20% more expensive? Before you answer remember that EU has trade agreements with a large amount of non EU countries. Including Mexico and Turkey. EU also has free trade agreements with other countries such Norway and Switzerland. If they wanted to be spitefull the most they could charge for exporting to them is an import duty of 5%. How would you end up paying 20% extra?

VAT?

There's all this waffle about economic this and that, how we'll all be rooned, or bathing in million pound notes, who's going to be our friend or not, etc.

It's all a smokescreen.

There is only one issue.

Will Scotland benefit in the long run from being able to determine its own policies?

And the answer to that is simple if you believe in a democratic system - Yes.

And is the BBC biased? - Yes (unfortunately)

Will Scotland benefit in the long run from being able to determine its own policies?

Possibly +1, but look closely and that is not what is on offer. That's the point.

PS I do really hope you vote for independence. My previous rant was truly truly meant, I would be ecstatic if you left the Union.
Definition of ecstatic
1. in a trancelike state of great rapture or delight
2. showing or feeling great enthusiasm: ecstatic applause.
3. a person who has periods of intense trance like joy

❓

Poor iScotland. It will only be as independent as Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Estonia, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, ireland, Italy, Latvia, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Portugal, Slovakia, Slovenia and Spain. Woe is us.

There is only one issue.

Will Scotland benefit in the long run from being able to determine its own policies?

And the answer to that is simple..... 😉 hence the current manifesto for devolution !!!

[quote=oldbloke ]Not quite. How about - Will Scotland be able to determine enough of its own policies (within the constraints of the EU and agreements with rUK) to make it appreciably better than devolution?
By having significantly more powers than it currently does or will ever be on offer under devolution?

I can't see why this is so hard to understand. In fact, I can only conclude that someone pretending not to is deliberately trolling and will thus treat them accordingly.

.scotroutes - Member
VAT?

[quote=SD-253 ].scotroutes - Member
VAT? how will extra VAT come into it. No country in the world charges VAT or the equivalent on goods they export. Somebody needs a bit of bog standard financial knowledge.
He said "import" though?

Bencooper - Member
That would immediately make most things I [b]import[/b] about 20% more expensive

Well you are going to have to ignore a lot of trolls in the Scottish government, press, and if polls are correct, population then Scotroutes!! Even dear Margo Macdonald is sounding a bit unsure these days!!

I can't see why this is so hard to understand.

I see it a little bit like when Fred Goodwin bought a bank without doing decent due diligence first.

. scotroutes - Member
oldbloke » Not quite. How about - Will Scotland be able to determine enough of its own policies (within the constraints of the EU and agreements with rUK) to make it appreciably better than devolution?
By having significantly more powers than it currently does or will ever be on offer under devolution?
I can't see why this is so hard to understand. In fact, I can only conclude that someone pretending not to is deliberately trolling and will thus treat them accordingly.