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What is Israel’s end game with respect to Gaza?
My guess is that they won’t stop until they’ve forced the entire Palestinian population into Egypt, then they’ll close the border.
Permanently.
Job jobbed!
Its a pseudo democracy. some folk don’t get to vote and they tend to have far right parties holding the balance of power so wielding undue power
Well I'm shocked - you mean they aren't Just Like Us ? And to state the obvious, far right parties hold the balance of power because people vote for them.
The comparison was the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising
When you make an analogy, or draw a parallel, it's a little ridiculous to expect it to correspond in every particular, no?
yes but due to the way the Knesset is set up they wield far greater power than the votes they get. Its an example of how proportional representation and coalitions can lead to unrepresentative government.
I do not know the current make up of the Knesset tho
As to the hostages, I truly don’t think Israel gives a damn if they live or die.
Anyone making this sort of comment is just demonstrating they don't have the slightest clue about modern Israeli-Palestinian history. Hostages are a critical issue, from Entebbe to the Achille Lauro to Gilad Shalit. The whole reason Hamas bothered to kidnap so many people this time is because last time Israel swapped 1000 Hamas associates for 1 Israeli soldier, and because it ensures that Israel will be sucked into a ground war in Gaza rather than merely aerial bombardments. And Israel has (it claims) rescued 250 hostages from a single location in Gaza after the ground invasion.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilad_Shalit_prisoner_exchange
https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/israel-defence-forces-storm-bunker-near-gaza-security-fence-put-a-pistol-to-him-4476730/amp/1
yes but due to the way the Knesset is set up they wield far greater power than the votes they get. Its an example of how proportional representation and coalitions can lead to unrepresentative government.
Understood, and to an extent you see that in civilised countries, eg Danish "People's Party" having a malign influence, but after 15 years you'd have thought that the Israelis could have figured out how to get a government that seeks peace based on justice. If they actually wanted one.
Ok. So we can’t compare them to the Nazis, how about the originators of concentrations camps and scorched earth policies- the British empire. With their inflicted famines in Ireland & India they aren’t adverse to a spot of ethnic cleansing too.
Understood, and to an extent you see that in civilised countries, eg Danish “People’s Party” having a malign influence, but after 15 years you’d have thought that the Israelis could have figured out how to get a government that seeks peace based on justice. If they actually wanted one.<br />
Isn’t that the same argument you could apply to Hamas having been in power since 2006? For peace two sides need to come together.
Isn’t that the same argument you could apply to Hamas having been in power since 2006?
Who has voted for Hamas since 2006 ?
there can be no peace in the middle east without justice for the Palestinians
Those who fail to learn from history will continue to make the same mistakes
to continue doing the same thing and expecting a different outcome is madness
applies to allsides
benosFull Member
I’m sure it isn’t unique, mando, but it was a response to this comment:As to the hostages, I truly don’t think Israel gives a damn if they live or die.
Im sorry, but thats how I feel given the events and Israels actions over the last few days. They clearly do not give a damn about Palestinian civilian casualties, be that of any age, and are on a course of action that is going to result in far more.
It is horrifying that these hostages were taken, and are inside Gaza, so why then is Israel continuing the relentless bombing campaign if it is obvious that these hostages might well be hit, and we've already had reports of 9 being killed in Israeli strikes thus far. So Israel know they are there, possibly with Hamas fighters, but are looking to bomb Hamas fighter positions, knowing full the hostages may be hit also.
.
Negotiate a ceasefire, then look to negotiate hostage release, but continue bombing and the only hostages they are likely to find are dead ones.
So say after they remove all Palestinians from the north, bomb then go in and find none. This would mean the hostages have been moved south. What then ? Continue bombing that area ?, or have the Palestinians move further south, bomb the area they occupied then again move the military in. Again they find nothing other than hostages killed in that bombing, or murdered by Hamas
Rinse and repeat ? eventually there will be no hostages. They will have been killed in Israeli strikes, or murdered by Hamas unable to move them any further, or across the Egyptian border, but the result is the same, it is unlikely continuing the way it is that they will survive.
Who has voted for Hamas since 2006 ?
You raised the point about no change in Israel politics for 15 years which was the context of the response. I think the point being made about no vote since 2006 is lost on you.
Ernie, I was explaining what the uprising was about, as you didn’t appear to be aware. The Polish Jews knew at that point they were being exterminated.
Since Alpin brought up the Warsaw Ghetto uprising, not the ghetto itself, that was the comparison he was making. The uprising with the Hamas attack (referencing the dance festival).
I think the point being made about no vote since 2006 is lost on you.
Maybe, but my original point was that we are told that a) Israel is a democracy (and hence superior to their neighbours) and b) most Israelis are decent people who want peace and justice (ditto). Which makes the continual rule by warmongers a little perplexing.
Ernie, I was explaining what the uprising was about, as you didn’t appear to be aware. The Polish Jews knew at that point they were being exterminated.
No they didn't. They had no idea that they were going to be sent to death camps. People obediently got off the trains at Auschwitz totally unaware of the gas chambers. The ghetto uprising had nothing to do with that.
No one has mentioned the death camps. Apart from you.
Alpin simply made the comparison of an ethnic group being horded into a ghetto in an occupied land rising up against their invaders, a perfectly valid comment.
it's wildly antisemitic. It's not "an ethnic group" - it's the Jews. The context was their extermination at the hands of the Nazis who believed that the Jews had to be wiped from the earth. Hamas are not "rising up" they are attempting to exterminate the Jews and this is key to their ideology. Thus comparing Hamas in 2023 with the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto is both wrong as a simple comparison but also grossly offensive to everyone. Even Hamas would find it wrong and offensive as it downplays their aims, capability and agency.
At some point yes the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto became widely aware of the death camps. However this had very little to do with the uprising according to a jewish historian I read. the uprising was in response to conditions in the ghetto and was intended to be part of a wider uprising in poland.
You jeep claiming antisemitism without any reasoning as to why it is. It may be wrong, it may be distasteful but it is not antisemetic in any way to draw the obvious comparisons between the Nazis and the Isrteali government.
Just shouting antisemitism at every opportunity devalues the term and makes your argument much less effective
Thus comparing Hamas in 2023 with the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto is both wrong as a simple comparison but also grossly offensive to everyone.
No one has done this. alpin referred to the ordinary person in the camps not Hamas.
You do realise your comments about the palestinians are verging on racist?
Interesting that no one is interested in defending Israel against the claim their goal is to ethnically cleanse Gaza (or at a minimum northern Gaza) but have been very keen on arguing whether a specific parallel made three pages ago was antisemitic or not.
On another day I might be happy to discuss the minutia of what constitutes antisemitism but with the current events it seems like bad faith arguments to avoid having to face the real issue.
Thus comparing Hamas in 2023 with the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto is both wrong as a simple comparison but also grossly offensive to everyone. Even Hamas would find it wrong and offensive as it downplays their aims, capability and agency.
Not Hamas, Palestinians. You do realise that the vast majority of people in Gaza are just normal Palestinian people don’t you?
draw the obvious comparisons between the Nazis and the Isrteali government
This is the problem...there are no obvious parallels. The parallels exist either if you're too lazy to think about it twist things so much to link broadly the worst people in history to the Israelis, with the apparent aim of dehumanising them.
I support Israel and hope they can achieve peace and security, and that a lasting peace is reached with the Palestinians. I don't think that end will be helped by flattening Gaza so hopefully good sense and maximum restraint win through on all sides.
I don't need to or want to justify everything that Israel has done or will do. Just as none of you seem willing to reflect on the nature of what Israel is up against. They're in a fight for their survival, having survived several near misses before.
Ernie, the salient point is that they were fighting the SS, not murdering women and children
You're drawing a parallel claiming the 'civilian' Palestinians trying to cling to life in Gaza are murdering women and children?
Just like Israeli government != 'the Jewish people', Hamas != Palestinian.
@tomd - I don't think you are capable of reflecting on the nature of what Israel IS. - a criminal apartheid state.
You jeep claiming antisemitism
Its a bit of a distraction.Move the conversation away from
Israels barbaric actions over the last several days and the last X number of years.
Talk about anti-separatism, try to accuse anyone with a brain of being anti-Semitic in the hope they'll get concerned about such a label and shut up.
As alluded to earlier, given the mods are rightly watching this thread we wouldn't still be here 'discussing' this if there was anything close to anti-semitism being posted.
If we all admit to being antisemitic will you say whether you think Israel's goal is to ethnically cleanse Gaza?
@colournoise Alpin’s comparison was of the Warsaw uprising with the Hamas attack. He even talked about the dance festival where the massacre took place.
edit Bringing in the Nazis is bad enough, but that comparison was something else.
@tomd – I don’t think you are capable of reflecting on the nature of what Israel IS. – a criminal apartheid state
Respectfully, I have but we'll need to disagree.
I think I've been called a racist at least 3 times in the thread for daring to have views somewhere to the right if George Galloway, which is about par for single-track land. So spare me the tears of the (accused) antisemites.
No obvoius parallels? Lets see. Creation of a ghetto. Sytematic stripping of land and citzenship. Extrajudicial killing. Demonisation of one ethnic group.
No. No parallels there at all
I can understand why direct comparisons to Nazis may well be very offensive depending on the context in which they are made, but Alpin’s comments really don’t fall under that. For them to have been in any way actually anti-Semitic, you’d have to prove they were deliberately intended to be offensive/discriminatory towards Jewish/Semitic people. Which they weren’t. So we really need to move on from that mudslinging, as it’s really not further g the discussion or helping to achieve anything positive. <br /><br />I do hope this thread remains open, as it is I believe an important opportunity for people to discuss issues openly. Which is vital if we’re actually going to get anywhere. I think many people have made very valuable contributions to this thread, and I do hope that continues. We can all learn from each other, so let’s just try listening instead of shouting.
benos
@colournoise Alpin’s comparison was of the Warsaw uprising with the Hamas attack. He even talked about the dance festival where the massacre took place.
edit Bringing in the Nazis is bad enough, but that comparison was something else.
Just been back and reread the post to make sure.
That interpretation of what alpin wrote feels like a bit of a stretch (but then I admit we aren't probably both starting from the same place on this).
Yes, his post mentioned the attack on the festival by Hamas but his direct parallel was drawn between the way oppressed groups might feel and why that breeds resentment of an occupying force. Anything beyond that either way is down to personal interpretation.
A lot of people seem to be confusing antisemitism with individuals, including me, attacking the Israeli government. One last time, it isn’t the same thing. What the Israeli government has done historically and is in the process of doing right now is wrong, illegal and sickening. Trying to defend that and claim it’s antisemitism to speak out against it is not helping the discussion at all.
Yes the state has a right to defend itself. I fail to see see how bombing hospitals, journalists, women and children falls under defending oneself. Ditto for evicting people from their homes and making land grabs. The fact that no western government, including our own, has condemned their actions is beyond me.
So, are we aiming for 5 pages of discussion about whether a single sentence was antisemitic?
My question remains. Is anyone prepared to say they don't think that Israel is about to ethnically cleanse the north of Gaza (and possibly the whole of Gaza)?
No obvoius parallels? Lets see. Creation of a ghetto. Sytematic stripping of land and citzenship. Extrajudicial killing. Demonisation of one ethnic group.
No. No parallels there
Absolutely demented. Can you spot any differences, any at all? Like a table and giraffe have 4 legs and you get tables AND giraffes in Africa so they're basically the same by your level of analysis.
My position on Israel is basically middle of the road as in it aligns with where most western governments are at. But apparently too extreme for this place
Very true funkmaster. But its the tactic the Israelis and their apologists use continually.
My position on Israel is basically middle of the road as in it aligns with where most western governments are at. But apparently too extreme for this place
Most Western governments are giving their tacit approval to the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Is that where you are?
NO I see no moral difference between the nazis doing those things and the Israelis doing exactly the same thing. care to explain what the difference is?
My position on Israel is basically middle of the road as in it aligns with where most western governments are at. But apparently too extreme for this place
so you’re okay with the slaughter of innocents? You’re fine with that and the illegal bombing of civilian infrastructure including hospitals? You’re fine with power and water being cut off? You’re okay with millions of people being told to leave their homeland even though they physical can’t because the very people that have told them have made it virtually impossible to do so?
TJ’s parallels are quite damning of the Israeli state. How, exactly, are they demented? Frightening is what they are. That a government can do to people what was once done to their own ancestors and relatives is flabbergasting and would be unbelievable but human history shows that we’re a bunch of bastards when you get right down to it.
Most Western governments are giving their tacit approval to the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. Is that where you are?
That's a straw man you've constructed and you know it.
Western governments recognise Israel is at war, but are urging restraint. The bigger picture is here is avoiding regional escalation and everyone is treading that line.
Israel is at war. I'm not sure you get this. They lost control of their country last week and now everything has changed.
It’s not a straw man, it’s happening right now. Western governments are basically posturing and tutting whilst doing nothing to help stabilise the situation.
Check out Grant Shapps on Radio 4 panicking and point blank ignoring Michel Husein’s very simple question on this subject. His lack of response says it all.
so you’re okay with the slaughter of innocents? You’re fine with that and the illegal bombing of civilian infrastructure including hospitals?
Yes because anything other than outright hatred for Israel means I want children to be killed. Good grief it must be really easy when everything is black and white.
My question remains. Is anyone prepared to say they don’t think that Israel is about to ethnically cleanse the north of Gaza (and possibly the whole of Gaza)?
I don't think anyone can answer that question definitively. I think as a minimum Israel is going to "demilitarise" Gaza and seek to rescue hostages, both of which are going to involve a lot of destruction of state infrastructure, Hamas assets, Hamas officers and associates - and inevitably the civilians and civilian infrastructure around them. It's going to be a cataclysm. Like Grapes of Wrath, but far worse, as civilians have nowhere to go.
Is it possible to demilitarise Hamas and recover hostages without innocent people being killed and civilian infrastructure being destroyed?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Grapes_of_Wrath